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general_kalle
01-07-2008, 01:29 PM
what do you think was the best squadron operating during world war two. purely on pilot skill and not on aircraft.


Tuskegee airmen?
JG26? JG27 or another german squadron?
VF(27?) the black sheeps

Clive Caldwells squadron

or some other?

general_kalle
01-07-2008, 01:29 PM
what do you think was the best squadron operating during world war two. purely on pilot skill and not on aircraft.


Tuskegee airmen?
JG26? JG27 or another german squadron?
VF(27?) the black sheeps

Clive Caldwells squadron

or some other?

JG52Uther
01-07-2008, 01:39 PM
Why JG52 of course!
Hartmann
Grislawski
Graf
Steinbatz
Von Bonin
Rossmann

etc etc etc
In the west
JG2 Richtofen
JG26 Schlageter

Metatron_123
01-07-2008, 01:42 PM
JG52 based on... the best frickin fighter pilots ever being members of it!

But keep in mind that a JG is not an american or british style squadron. I think it's various squadron under the same leadership, but I can't give you the exact term for it at the mo...

DmdSeeker
01-07-2008, 01:43 PM
617 squadron

Crash_Moses
01-07-2008, 01:44 PM
VMSB-241

or

VMB-611 with 613 as second runner-up.

Kurfurst__
01-07-2008, 01:44 PM
Dead easy... JG 52.

Three top scoring fighter pilots ever lived (Hartmann, Barkhorn, Rall) , all belonged to JG 52, and by late 1944, JG 52 bagged over 10 000 victories... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Though, technically, it`s not a 'Squadron', it`s a much larger unit composed of about a dozen Squadrons, but I guess you meant fighter unit anyway.

BGs_Ricky
01-07-2008, 01:52 PM
Lentolaivue 24 of the Ilmavoimat: 877 victories for the loss of 55 aircrafts.

Top ten scorers of LLv.24:

- Ilmari Juutilainen: 94 victories, double Mannerheim Cross knight
- Hans Wind: 75 victories, double Mannerheim Cross knight
- Eino Luukkanen: 56 victories. Mannerheim cross winner.
- Olavi Puro: 36 victories.
- Nils Katajainen: 35.5 victories. Mannerheim cross winner.
- Lauri Nissinen: 32.5 victories. Mannerheim cross winner. Killed in action
- Kyösti Karhila: 32 victories
- Jorma Karhunen: 31 victories. Mannerheim cross winner.
- Emil Vesa: 29.5 victories.
- Tapio Järvi: 28.5 victories.

smokincrater
01-07-2008, 02:08 PM
Southern Cross RAAF No.3. Top scoring allied fighter unit in the North African campiagn. Flying Tomahawks and Kittyhawks against airplanes that far outclassed the Kittyhawk. Such as the Me 109f,g and the Macchi 202 and 205.
Pilots such as Bobby Gibbes, Andrew (Nicky) Barr, Tiny Cameron, Wil Arthur and many more.

LEBillfish
01-07-2008, 02:27 PM
Actually I think you've set down a condition that instantly makes this question impossible to answer or very wrong in some cases.....

Oft times, superior aircraft or numbers made the success...Imagine to be extreme late P51's vs. Storch's....and many many of the high kill numbers come from such conditions. This could easily be debated a bazillion different ways from sunday, even training and tactics as sometimes you had little time, or simply they worked at that moment.

If I had to pick a group however, it wouldn't be a single squadron yet the 5th AirForce as a whole under Kenny......Yet then again in fairness, the 4th Koukuugun besides tactically poor was also aircraft poor as well.

In the end, we'll often pick what we know about the most as well.

stathem
01-07-2008, 02:32 PM
617 SQ.

F19_Orheim
01-07-2008, 04:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Actually I think you've set down a condition that instantly makes this question impossible to answer or very wrong in some cases.....

Oft times, superior aircraft or numbers made the success...Imagine to be extreme late P51's vs. Storch's....and many many of the high kill numbers come from such conditions. This could easily be debated a bazillion different ways from sunday, even training and tactics as sometimes you had little time, or simply they worked at that moment.

If I had to pick a group however, it wouldn't be a single squadron yet the 5th AirForce as a whole under Kenny......Yet then again in fairness, the 4th Koukuugun besides tactically poor was also aircraft poor as well.

In the end, we'll often pick what we know about the most as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree.. and fron that point of view I have to concurr with Ricky...:LLv.24
what the flew.. against what they were facing... and their tactics, the Finns did one hell of a job defending themselves

Gumtree
01-07-2008, 04:55 PM
I feel its hard to say who or what's the best, as we have seen with pages and pages of posts, yet if the criteria was based on who performed the best during the war, then we would have to look at what tasks did the squadron have and did they perform them flawlessly.

I am not an expert on these guys but surely the Tuskagee airmen with their record of never loosing a bomber whilst under their protection would have to be in the top few.

Smoking crater makes a valid point as well , the members of 239 wing (112 RAF, 3 RAAF, 450 RAAF) who are the earliest practitioners of the tactical fighter bomber theories and fought as mentioned against superior machinery must also be taken into account.

I suppose any bugger that is brave enough to get into the air and then try engage the enemy is the best in my view.

Clipper_51
01-07-2008, 05:12 PM
Those Marines that defended Guadalcanal

JG51_Rudel
01-07-2008, 05:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Clipper_51:
Those Marines that defended Guadalcanal </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



The Cactus Air Force, i believe they were called.

Waldo.Pepper
01-07-2008, 05:29 PM
Any topic about the best is BS.

Here is why in three parts. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Part 2 @ 4 minutes in relevant here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zL2PQeq-p84

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwLjs8gJqB0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aQ0ytfYVbA&feature=related

BrotherVoodoo
01-07-2008, 05:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I am not an expert on these guys but surely the Tuskagee airmen with their record of never loosing a bomber whilst under their protection would have to be in the top few. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I am no expert either, however I agree with you. The Tuskegee Airman were among the finest.

sgt.dumpster
01-07-2008, 05:44 PM
why JG 52 of course!!!!!!!!!!!!!rOBOT house

HARRIER_401
01-07-2008, 06:00 PM
That would be the VMF 323 Death Rattlers.

Lubcke
01-07-2008, 06:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Actually I think you've set down a condition that instantly makes this question impossible to answer or very wrong in some cases.....

Oft times, superior aircraft or numbers made the success...Imagine to be extreme late P51's vs. Storch's....and many many of the high kill numbers come from such conditions. This could easily be debated a bazillion different ways from sunday, even training and tactics as sometimes you had little time, or simply they worked at that moment.

If I had to pick a group however, it wouldn't be a single squadron yet the 5th AirForce as a whole under Kenny......Yet then again in fairness, the 4th Koukuugun besides tactically poor was also aircraft poor as well.

In the end, we'll often pick what we know about the most as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

why is that impossible... we know where served highest scoring pilots, its actualy very easy, and if you are talking about aircraft superiority, then as we know hartmann made most of his kills in the second half of the war, when according to many in this forum, best aircrafts were on the allied side...

Bremspropeller
01-07-2008, 06:34 PM
JG = wing (USAAF) = group (RAF)

LEBillfish
01-07-2008, 09:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lubcke:
why is that impossible... we know where served highest scoring pilots, its actualy very easy, and if you are talking about aircraft superiority, then as we know hartmann made most of his kills in the second half of the war, when according to many in this forum, best aircrafts were on the allied side... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

as there are hundreds, thousands of variables and reasons each able to be legitimately argued and proven both for and against....Don't believe me?....Try this:

Every ace made kills due to opponents checking elsewhere, not the ace yet the elsewhere the deciding factor...and that elsewhere often another unit. So the other unit due the credit towards greatest.

There are countless easily argued reasons...Now "which is your favorite" well that I can't argue....Which was the best just like "which plane was best" except worse.

Skycat_2
01-07-2008, 09:52 PM
The best squadron of WWII was a secret British unit known as the Battlehawks. They flew captured aircraft and used experimental weapons against the Axis on several fronts including the Pacific and Russia. Most of their operations took place over Normandy.

We only know about the Battlehawks through the diary and letters of James Chase, an American pilot who volunteered to fly with RAF in 1940 and who was selected into this covert unit.

The second best squadron of WWII was a German unit that went by the callsign "Nemesis." I don't know much about them because they too were a secret unit...

Bearcat99
01-07-2008, 09:55 PM
I dont think I am qualified to even debate this issue from 60+ years out... and like some have said.. there are too many variables .. I think there were so many brave men on all sides that it is just hard to come up with a "best"

Skycat_2
01-07-2008, 10:06 PM
I heard this 10-man fighter squadron was formidable in the air:
http://testcentret.idg.se/qbild/produkter/FighterSquadron.GIF

Sergio_101
01-08-2008, 01:56 AM
Bearcat99 has hit the nail on the head.
Look at the mission, not just the kills and loss ratio.

I will suggest two American units.

Bomber escort mission. Tuskeege Airmen.
So, they may have lost a bomber, but it took 60
years to find they may have lost one or two.
Few kills, not a great kill loss ratio.
Fantastic escort record.
What is NOT myth is they were requested as escort by "white"
bomber crews. Given the racisim prevelent in their day, that was astounding.

Air to air combat/intercept. AVG/Flying Tigers.
While not a unit in the USAAC/USAAF they were a rare
item for American airmen. The intercept role almost
exclusivly. And they racked up an astounding record.

Sergio

Bewolf
01-08-2008, 02:10 AM
KG 200

These guys were nuts.

Flight_boy1990
01-08-2008, 02:20 AM
LOL dudes...One of the best performed on the east german squadrons was JG54.
Actually JG52,JG53,JG54 were the best of the best on the eastern front,and well known of course.
Here are some of the JG54 legends:

Gordon Gollob
Walter Nowotny
Otto Kittel
Hannes Trautloft
Hans Ekkehard Bob
Franz Eckerle
Emil "Bully" Lang
Max Stotz
Hans Beißwenger

Niiiiice,heh? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .
It's honor for me to fly as I/JG54 "Greenhearts" member.
Those guys were outstanding.When they flew together in a sortie,and the russians knew that the germans have their aces in the sky,they ran home and land untill they still can.

BGs_Ricky
01-08-2008, 02:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Flight_boy1990:
Actually JG52,JG53,JG54 were the best of the best on the eastern front, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

JG 53 didn't operate that much on the eastern front except during Barbarossa, and for I/JG53 also during the advance on Stalingrad (where they indeed racked up lots of kills)and again towards the end of the war. More relevant to the eastern front would be JG 51.

Schwarz.13
01-08-2008, 04:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
Any topic about the best is BS.

Here is why in three parts. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Part 2 @ 4 minutes in relevant here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zL2PQeq-p84

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwLjs8gJqB0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aQ0ytfYVbA&feature=related </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

+1

and the Penn & Teller links are f**king hilarious - especially the 'fine' diners (and i like fine dining) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

p1ngu666
01-08-2008, 05:36 AM
617, making the impossible happen http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

various mossie units (most raids where split accross 3 squadrons) just popping up somewhere in europe and blowing the **** out of a target http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

tuskegee's, best escorts ever. well second best after the other type http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

early war japanease, pulled off some stunning successes

kg200, bizare to the max, some successes and some failures.

RAF photo recon http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

mmitch10
01-08-2008, 05:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skycat_2:
The best squadron of WWII was a secret British unit known as the Battlehawks. They flew captured aircraft and used experimental weapons against the Axis on several fronts including the Pacific and Russia. Most of their operations took place over Normandy.

We only know about the Battlehawks through the diary and letters of James Chase, an American pilot who volunteered to fly with RAF in 1940 and who was selected into this covert unit.

The second best squadron of WWII was a German unit that went by the callsign "Nemesis." I don't know much about them because they too were a secret unit... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've never heard of the Battlehawks, so I did a google search...wow, what a unit! I feel a bit stupid now http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

My vote would go to JG52, but as others have said, it's a very subjective question.

MEGILE
01-08-2008, 06:01 AM
JG69 with the famous ace brothers, Hans and Simon Greuber

Worf101
01-08-2008, 06:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
I dont think I am qualified to even debate this issue from 60+ years out... and like some have said.. there are too many variables .. I think there were so many brave men on all sides that it is just hard to come up with a "best" </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Once you use a loaded term like "best" or "bravest" or etc... you're doomed to a never ending cycle of "buts" and "counter buts". Any man or woman who climbed into a cockpit in WWII is deserving of a certain measure of respect. "There are no elevators in the sky."

Da Worfster

general_kalle
01-08-2008, 06:36 AM
Wow. dont you just love it when you single questions turns into 2 pages. i always get a little wow when i see that.

i understand its a hard question due to the fact the aircraft have something to say.

thanks for the answers people i can see its not that simple and there's alot of answers.

about the secret groups.

i remember flying a very arcadic plane game called Secret weapons over Normandy where you flew as a member of the battle hawks and sometimes had to face Nemisis which were far better.

but i quickly dropped the game again. too arcadic for me.

TgD Thunderbolt56
01-08-2008, 06:52 AM
Some of the best:

JG52
LLv.24
56th FG
Tainan Ku

Plelv44_Mangrov
01-08-2008, 06:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BGs_Ricky:
Top ten scorers of LLv.24:

- Ky�sti Karhila: 32 victories. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Karhila was part of Lentolaivue 32 during 1941-1943 and then was transferred to Lentolaivue 34 where he flew the rest of war.

The later research (C.F. Geust) has confirmed he has more than 32 victories, the correct number is 40+ or so.

GoToAway
01-08-2008, 07:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BGs_Ricky:
Lentolaivue 24 of the Ilmavoimat: 877 victories for the loss of 55 aircrafts.

Top ten scorers of LLv.24:

- Ilmari Juutilainen: 94 victories, double Mannerheim Cross knight
- Hans Wind: 75 victories, double Mannerheim Cross knight
- Eino Luukkanen: 56 victories. Mannerheim cross winner.
- Olavi Puro: 36 victories.
- Nils Katajainen: 35.5 victories. Mannerheim cross winner.
- Lauri Nissinen: 32.5 victories. Mannerheim cross winner. Killed in action
- Kyösti Karhila: 32 victories
- Jorma Karhunen: 31 victories. Mannerheim cross winner.
- Emil Vesa: 29.5 victories.
- Tapio Järvi: 28.5 victories. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>No question.

Statistically, LeLv 24 is the most successful aviation unit in history.