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Yog_Shoggoth
06-06-2005, 07:55 PM
Get a force feedback joystick. I'm using a Wingman force 3D and in 60 minutes I've made more progress then in 9 months of playing the game. My old problem was that I'd fly like a grandmother, very slow 'turns.' this thing gives you an idea of just how far you can push your plane. And if you do stall, well, at least it feels cool. My only complaint: I was hoping for some more feedback on the landings.

Yog_Shoggoth
06-06-2005, 07:55 PM
Get a force feedback joystick. I'm using a Wingman force 3D and in 60 minutes I've made more progress then in 9 months of playing the game. My old problem was that I'd fly like a grandmother, very slow 'turns.' this thing gives you an idea of just how far you can push your plane. And if you do stall, well, at least it feels cool. My only complaint: I was hoping for some more feedback on the landings.

Psi9RQR
06-06-2005, 10:13 PM
I've been wondering that myself. How does the FF stick help you stop stalling? Does it make it harder to push your a/c to that point, or does it just give you more warning than the normal screen shuddering?

Tully__
06-07-2005, 12:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Psi9RQR:
I've been wondering that myself. How does the FF stick help you stop stalling? Does it make it harder to push your a/c to that point, or does it just give you more warning than the normal screen shuddering? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

More warning... the stick shakes as well as the screen shudder and the sound of turbulence building over the wings. You should also get a loss of control resistance on stalled control surfaces, not sure if that's fully modelled though.

AerialTarget
06-07-2005, 04:00 AM
Why would you expect there to be more feedback on landings? Except for possible buffeting since your aircraft is near the stall position (I never felt it in a Cessna, but a warbird may be different), the controls should not do anything when the wheels hit that they don't do in straight and level flight.

For that matter, the controls shouldn't shake or do anything when guns are fired, either. I don't know where that idiotic idea came from, but it is the largest reason I abhor force feedback joysticks. I mean, it actually affects your gunnery, giving you an unrealistic disadvantage!

DRAGON_2_GO
06-07-2005, 02:20 PM
Well, you can actually feel if you have touched down because of that rytmic shake of your stick caused by the plating on the ground. There's a bug however: after releasing the brakes on a carrier you'll get the same even if you don't move.

AerialTarget
06-07-2005, 02:27 PM
Like I said, it may do that in games, but there's no such effect in real life! The stick should not do anything funny when you land. Why would it? It is linked to the elevator and ailerons, not the wheels!

JunkoIfurita
06-07-2005, 05:07 PM
Well, considering that the majority of WWII warbirds were without hydraulic control systems, vibration of the stick isn't that unrealistic.

Landing: vibrations in the wheels &gt; vibrations through the structure of the aircraft &gt; vibrations through the control wires &gt; vibrations in the stick.

A large enough set of guns will shake the aircraft in the same way - although you'll notice it happens a lot less on large, heavy aircraft that are designed as stable gun platforms.

The Force Feedback profile isn't perfect - because it doesn't distinguish between hydraulic and non-hydraulic controls. If you use force feedback and don't want the guns-firing shake, you can simply delete a certain file from the FFB profile directory, and you'll no longer get the shakes.

I believe theres a FFB profile that installs with either Fall Blau or The Last Days that is supposed to be quite realistic, too.

----

antifreeze
06-07-2005, 05:59 PM
&gt; I'm using a [logitech] Wingman force 3D

If you are pleased with that stick and think that it has improved your flying, I bet your last one was a 'normal' logitech wingman?

I found the Wingman series rubbish for playing FB/PF. The stick literally has 1-2cm of movement. How can you fly on the edge of the flight envelope when you have to be so accurate and can only make tiny movements? These sticks make flying so much harder than it is supposed to be. I was always stalling with that stick and couldn't hit anything. After dumping the logitechs and getting a Saitek, my flying improved by over 100% in the first five minutes, after months of struggling with the game. IMO, you don't need feedback to know when a stall is coming as long as you have a stick which gives you some leeway of movement.

Also, I think you'll be lucky if your 'Wingman' lasts past 6 months. Certainly 9 months seems to be the upper limit from the reviews/forums I read a while back.

AerialTarget
06-07-2005, 09:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JunkoIfurita:
Well, considering that the majority of WWII warbirds were without hydraulic control systems, vibration of the stick isn't that unrealistic.

Landing: vibrations in the wheels &gt; vibrations through the structure of the aircraft &gt; vibrations through the control wires &gt; vibrations in the stick.

A large enough set of guns will shake the aircraft in the same way - although you'll notice it happens a lot less on large, heavy aircraft that are designed as stable gun platforms. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's doubly wrong. First of all, Cessnas (and, in fact, most aircraft) don't have fly-by-wire or hydraulically boosted controls any more than a warbird, and the yoke still doesn't shake or jerk at all on landings (at least not on mine and on my instructor's!). Neither do the pedals, which are linked to the wheels and therefore could have an excuse for shaking or jerking on landing.

Secondly, while certain things (firing guns, taking hits, and really really bad landings) make the entire airplane shake in real life, they do not make the stick shake more than anything else. Therefore, the stick will not feel like it is shaking compared to everything else. And therefore, and most importantly, when the aircraft is shaking, since the stick will not shake more than the rest of the aircraft, the control surfaces will not be affected.

If you are not yet convinced, then I will try no further to convince you. You can play with your unrealistic force feedback joystick and imagine that it's something close to the real thing. I tell you that it is not. It is less realistic than a non-force feedback stick, in addition to having several times the cost. It is also a very unrealistic and stupid handicap, born of the desire of joystick makers to make money off of people who have not had the opportunity to see how things really are.

Yog_Shoggoth
06-07-2005, 09:58 PM
I've used CH (borrowed), Saitek, and Logitech. I prefer Logitech. My wingman 3D lasted more than a year and considering I got it for 30$ I don't mind replacing it. They're the best value for the money, EVO's feel cheap and have too little resistance. The only complaint I have is that the thumb buttons are poorly designed.

Jex_TG
06-08-2005, 05:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AerialTarget:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JunkoIfurita:
Well, considering that the majority of WWII warbirds were without hydraulic control systems, vibration of the stick isn't that unrealistic.

Landing: vibrations in the wheels &gt; vibrations through the structure of the aircraft &gt; vibrations through the control wires &gt; vibrations in the stick.

A large enough set of guns will shake the aircraft in the same way - although you'll notice it happens a lot less on large, heavy aircraft that are designed as stable gun platforms. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's doubly wrong. First of all, Cessnas (and, in fact, most aircraft) don't have fly-by-wire or hydraulically boosted controls any more than a warbird, and the yoke still doesn't shake or jerk at all on landings (at least not on mine and on my instructor's!). Neither do the pedals, which are linked to the wheels and therefore could have an excuse for shaking or jerking on landing.

Secondly, while certain things (firing guns, taking hits, and really really bad landings) make the entire airplane shake in real life, they do not make the stick shake more than anything else. Therefore, the stick will not feel like it is shaking compared to everything else. And therefore, and most importantly, when the aircraft is shaking, since the stick will not shake more than the rest of the aircraft, the control surfaces will not be affected.

If you are not yet convinced, then I will try no further to convince you. You can play with your unrealistic force feedback joystick and imagine that it's something close to the real thing. I tell you that it is not. It is less realistic than a non-force feedback stick, in addition to having several times the cost. It is also a very unrealistic and stupid handicap, born of the desire of joystick makers to make money off of people who have not had the opportunity to see how things really are. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the FFB is programmed not only to represent the control surfaces, but also simulate knocks against the aircraft. This is only my opinion though. What needs to be done is to have any 'knock' effects negated and leave only the control surfaces providing feedback.