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XyZspineZyX
01-25-2007, 09:18 AM
We recently welcomed a new member to our squadron. He had his first coop mission with us this week. Supposedly, I am the squadron's instructor(appointed...not asked for), so I give the noobs a load of tutorials in a special section of our squadron forum. That said, with my status I should take all newbs under my wing in a coop, but all senior members in our squad have the obligation and the responsibility of being able to do so as well.

Now lets see what happened. The coop was 1 flight of 2 Tempests in the SEAD role, of which I was a part of. 2 Tempests were supposed to escort a flight of 2 B-25's, of which said newb was a part of. Now a senior member was leading him, but during the mission he got a phone call, so he waved off and orbited at his present location. This left Mr. Newb all alone to escort the bombers, and my flight was already well ahead and already taking out AA emplacements.

Well, in the mission, the senior member that had created the mission had put a flight of friendlies that crossed path with that of the B-25s. So Mr. Newb set off to investigate(we play with icons off). Upon finding the flight of friendlies, he notified us of his findings but also notified us of his being lost on the map. Now, all he had to do was take his previous course he had with the bombers to find them again. Instead he wandered around until I crashed(yes I know, quite newbish of myself), then with the external cam on his ship I managed to find where he was on the map and guided him to base.

Now, the following day on our forum we had a debrief. He told us that the reason he got lost was because we didnt give sufficient information in our mission briefing, but all waypoints with their headings were there. He just didnt note them down. So in the debrief I offered him a little constructive criticism, told him that in his situation being alone, you dont leave your bombers to investigate a flight of 4 dots on the horizon. He made an error in judgement and puts the blame on the rest of us.

After giving him this constructive criticism he outright attacks me telling me that I suck as an instructor because I didnt take him under MY wing and now criticizes my actions during the mission which I already took full responsibility for telling me that I shouldnt have been strafing targets after I had cleared the area of AAA for the bombers.

I politely told him that he obviously had a lack of maturity, and that he had a full 3 weeks from the time he joined our forum and started posting to the time of the coop to practice and start flying his Tempest to get to know it. He hadnt read any of the tutorials I posted on our forum either.

So is this typical newb behaviour? Should he be bannished? How would your squadron deal with such a person?

XyZspineZyX
01-25-2007, 09:18 AM
We recently welcomed a new member to our squadron. He had his first coop mission with us this week. Supposedly, I am the squadron's instructor(appointed...not asked for), so I give the noobs a load of tutorials in a special section of our squadron forum. That said, with my status I should take all newbs under my wing in a coop, but all senior members in our squad have the obligation and the responsibility of being able to do so as well.

Now lets see what happened. The coop was 1 flight of 2 Tempests in the SEAD role, of which I was a part of. 2 Tempests were supposed to escort a flight of 2 B-25's, of which said newb was a part of. Now a senior member was leading him, but during the mission he got a phone call, so he waved off and orbited at his present location. This left Mr. Newb all alone to escort the bombers, and my flight was already well ahead and already taking out AA emplacements.

Well, in the mission, the senior member that had created the mission had put a flight of friendlies that crossed path with that of the B-25s. So Mr. Newb set off to investigate(we play with icons off). Upon finding the flight of friendlies, he notified us of his findings but also notified us of his being lost on the map. Now, all he had to do was take his previous course he had with the bombers to find them again. Instead he wandered around until I crashed(yes I know, quite newbish of myself), then with the external cam on his ship I managed to find where he was on the map and guided him to base.

Now, the following day on our forum we had a debrief. He told us that the reason he got lost was because we didnt give sufficient information in our mission briefing, but all waypoints with their headings were there. He just didnt note them down. So in the debrief I offered him a little constructive criticism, told him that in his situation being alone, you dont leave your bombers to investigate a flight of 4 dots on the horizon. He made an error in judgement and puts the blame on the rest of us.

After giving him this constructive criticism he outright attacks me telling me that I suck as an instructor because I didnt take him under MY wing and now criticizes my actions during the mission which I already took full responsibility for telling me that I shouldnt have been strafing targets after I had cleared the area of AAA for the bombers.

I politely told him that he obviously had a lack of maturity, and that he had a full 3 weeks from the time he joined our forum and started posting to the time of the coop to practice and start flying his Tempest to get to know it. He hadnt read any of the tutorials I posted on our forum either.

So is this typical newb behaviour? Should he be bannished? How would your squadron deal with such a person?

tigertalon
01-25-2007, 09:26 AM
In case I'd be the one to judge, I'd want to hear his story as well.

dieg777
01-25-2007, 09:44 AM
Each squadron has its own guidelines or rules of conduct and as long as prospective members are aware of these and the expectations of the squadron then there should be no problems with newer members. The difficulty has arisn in my opinion due to a difference in expectation of skill in what you have expected to be demonstrated and what has actually occured.

He is probably feeling a bit sorry or perhaps embarressed at messing up his first flight with you , in which typically people would like to make a good impression and would not appreciate this being highlighted in the forums.The situation might have been handled better by following up any criticism you may have had via personel e-mail between yourself and this new member or through private teamspeak to discus these issues and for you to help him to meet your squad expectations.

Only you and your squad can make the decision as to wether this guy seems suitable but I would find it harsh to criticise or dismiss a new member especially on the showing of only one flight.

XyZspineZyX
01-25-2007, 09:45 AM
His side of the story?

"What else was I supposed to do? They were coming in our direction so I broke off to investigate what they were."

To which I told him that since it was a flight of 4, and he was alone, he should have stayed with the bombers. 4 against 1 arent good odds.

Then after that this started: "You as the head instructor of this squadron..you suck. You shouldnt have been strafing something that was supposed to have been destroyed by the flight of bombers anyway."

I just want to know how to deal with newbies that DONT read the information thats given to them and then blame the senior players for their mistakes.

Worf101
01-25-2007, 09:48 AM
Yeah, having seen how these things can spin out of control I'd have to hear him "speak" on teamspeak most likely, and see what his/her side of the story was. If your version were correct, then it's easy, addition by subtraction. This is a "voluntary" endeavor on all parts. There's no requirement to suffer fools on either side.

Da Worfster

XyZspineZyX
01-25-2007, 09:48 AM
Thanks for your reply dieg.

Unfortunately this member claims to have already left the squadron because of this. He hasnt read any of our responses explaining our actions and how the constructive criticism we give should be taken.

SeaFireLIV
01-25-2007, 09:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skunk241981:


So is this typical newb behaviour? Should he be bannished for being such a moronic newb? How would your squadron deal with such a person? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, it`s not typical noob behaviour. We in our squad have had quite a few new guys and I cannot recall in a couple of years a situation like yours. We don`t have an age limit, but we do tend to attract mature players (most of us range from 25- 50+, I think). All our new guys are usually polite and patient through their month or so probation. We have had a couple that do get impatient, wondering why they should wait 4 weeks to get their wings. But it`s about attitude not skill, really, and 4 weeks usually shows if the new guy has the right attitude.

Perhaps this one didn`t have it.

Regardless, he should not have blamed anybody and simply accepted the constructive criticism and put it down to learning. As a new guy, if he wants to get on in a team environment he has to learn humility even if he thinks he didn`t do anything wrong. Once he`s accepted, then he can make suggestions if he thinks things aren`t right.

It`s possible your new guy was too young or just immature and wasn`t serious about joining. A lot of young (very young) people can`t take constructive criticism. You can`t learn and improve in a team environment if you aren`t willing to take this sometimes.

BSS_Goat
01-25-2007, 09:53 AM
I would find out where he lives and confront him MAN TO MAN!

OH, this is a game isn't it....nevermind. I would laugh it off.

JG52Karaya-X
01-25-2007, 09:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
In case I'd be the one to judge, I'd want to hear his story as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Now I could be wrong but by this

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I politely told him that he obviously had a lack of maturity, and that he had a full 3 weeks from the time he joined our forum and started posting to the time of the coop to practice and start flying his Tempest to get to know it. He hadnt read any of the tutorials I posted on our forum either. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I deduct that you guys never (!?) flew with him in a mission before. Now dont get me wrong but reading tutorials is one thing, however the practical use of whats you've learned is something completely different. A couple of training flights with him should have been done, not only for the educationary aspect but also to have a look what his progress as of late has been. You cant expect a newcomer to learn all about flying in IL2 in 3 weeks, no matter how many tutorials you throw at him. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

On the other side I also understand it was not the best manner by him to point fingers and accuse anybody of being incapable of teaching.

XyZspineZyX
01-25-2007, 09:58 AM
Well, it does sound a bit misleading, but we did fly in a squad only dogfight server with him and the senior members thougt he was good to go. Plus he claimed that he wasnt a noob, claiming that he was used to flying the 109 in another squadron and online.

RocketDog
01-25-2007, 10:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skunk241981:
To which I told him that since it was a flight of 4, and he was alone, he should have stayed with the bombers. 4 against 1 arent good odds.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

His action doesn't sound unreasonable to me, particularly if the mystery flight was human rather than AI. Staying as close escort is pretty useless - both in the game and historically. Far better to try and break up an enemy formation before it can organise for an attack. In a Tempest he had a good aircraft to do this because of its speed and firepower. Further, an AI formation is likely to spend time chasing an intercepting player and ignore the bombers.

You might also like to consider that describing an errant newcommer as a "moronic newb" in the public forums is unlikely to lead to you having a rush of new recruits. Just a thought http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Cheers,

RD.

Friendly_flyer
01-25-2007, 10:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skunk241981:
Unfortunately this member claims to have already left the squadron because of this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then the problem has solved it self.

Such things sometime happened as a result of bad personal chemistry. There need be no fault from any part. However, as Dieg777 suggested, critique shold be done personally, at least until the new pilot has become "housewarm", as we say in Norway.

CruiseTorpedo
01-25-2007, 10:07 AM
The last thing I would do would be to start a thread in a public forum like this and talk about it. I would keep things like this in my own private forum.

MEGILE
01-25-2007, 10:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_Goat:
I would laugh it off. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Life has enough drama, without the virtual kind.

faustnik
01-25-2007, 10:13 AM
It's supposed to be fun. If a member of the squad is making it "un-fun" then it's probably best for everybody if they find a different group to fly with.

In the long run, personality is more imporatant than ability.

WWSensei
01-25-2007, 10:17 AM
Viewing this from your input alone my worthless opinion is:

His actions during the mission could possibly been better--but that's in hindsight. Nothing to kick him out over or for him to get upset about.

His not preparing for the mission ahead of time? Not a disaster either if he was new and expecting to just follow the leader. Could have been a good opportunity to learn to always be prepared.

His going off on you and blaming others? Would have booted him right there.

That's from the perspective of our squad. We value the personality more than th eflying skill. Other squads are different. We've been in existence as a squad since 1992 and the early Sierra Network Red Baron days. We've had all types come and go through the squad. We have a 6 month "probation" period in the squadron that just sort of evolved as we learned that not everyone has the mindset, sometimes real life factors prevent them from contributing more, or we just mutually discover the person and the squad aren't the right fit.

Now, as to why I would have booted him right then, well, this is a game--my virtual sandbox I come to play in when I want to unwind. In my real life job I have to tolerate asinine behavior from jerks all the time. I don't have to tolerate them in them in my play area.

XyZspineZyX
01-25-2007, 10:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CruiseTorpedo:
The last thing I would do would be to start a thread in a public forum like this and talk about it. I would keep things like this in my own private forum. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the input, but I already thought it through, and wouldnt have posted this here if I'd known that he surfs these boards. He doesnt. I'm just asking for opinions anyway.

JG14_Josf
01-25-2007, 10:21 AM
Make the student lead.

There can be no question as to who is responsible for error when the student leads.

Accurate communication is essential.

Example:

Rule:

If you lead, then, call your turns in advance. If you don't call your turns in advance, then, you are not leading.

My job, as wingman, is to protect your six; therefore I must have accurate and current information concerning your altitude, heading, and attitude, otherwise, my ability to look for threats is gone as I must watch every move you make just to stay in formation.

See how long the leader can lead.

This works very well. As soon as the leader makes an unannounced turn is the exact moment that the so called' leader makes an error.

There can be no question concerning that error. The leader can at least say: SNAFU meaning all discipline is gone the enemy is forcing complete defensive maneuvering; every man for himself.

Otherwise the leader commands the flight, including, commanding where, when, and how the enemy will be attacked and by whom.

If the student is blaming the leader for errors, then, let the student lead.

It works in spades.

XyZspineZyX
01-25-2007, 10:21 AM
I would call it a lesson learned for all involved

SithSpeeder
01-25-2007, 10:35 AM
Squad dynamics....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...the following day on our forum we had a debrief...so in the debrief I offered him a little constructive criticism, told him that in his situation being alone, you dont leave your bombers to investigate a flight of 4 dots on the horizon. He made an error in judgement... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

IMO, the forum post is a poor place to level criticisms, especially of people you are not friends with. There are too many ways for the post to be misinterpreted. Even on comms, that happens as well. Reading between the lines, it seems that he took offense to your post--simple as that. He "reacted" (poorly, albeit) because he felt attacked and attacked you back ("You suck"). You reacted with an attack ("I politely told him that he obviously had a lack of maturity").

The idea in building a strong relationship is to respond, not react.

The relationships between squadmates is one that is built over hours of virtual killing and dying. What is the end goal of your squad? Is it to have fun by flying perfectly executed missions? Or is it to have fun by building relationships, learning how to be a team, etc., etc.?

Even not hearing his side of the story, it is the squad's responsibility to include folks using inclusive language. I have found that if I disagree with someone's actions, it is better to ask open ended questions of that person then to level criticisms. I then end up learning (99 times out of 100) that they were truly doing the best they could and for pretty good reasons.

So the purpose of your post was to answer the questions: "So is this typical newb behaviour? Should he be bannished? How would your squadron deal with such a person?"

To which I respond directly: possibly, the point is moot (he quit), hopefully like I described above.

I tend to agree with Dieg, Goat, Worf, Karaya, and RocketDog. And I really like Josf's suggestion. At the point where his leader RTB'd (essentially), he became the leader of his wing. But I would suggest that the mission lead (or at least the flight lead) should have given him some direction ("orders"?) at that point. YMMV.

* _54th_Speeder *

EyeoftheChicken
01-25-2007, 10:55 AM
Today, january 25th, 2007, is a sad day for this general forum because this thread has been written. flame off.

ElAurens
01-25-2007, 11:03 AM
I think you are taking the bloody game far too seriously.

XyZspineZyX
01-25-2007, 11:06 AM
Flaming only occurs when people write comments such as yours Eye, ones which bring nothing to the discussion.

SithSpeeder, thanks for your input. I guess that that night was just an amalgamation of many things that led to a bad experience for this person. Normally our C/O leads everything, but he had connection problems and disappeared for the evening. Then his squad leader basically had what cannot be expected(phone call) and couldnt continue with leading his apprentice.

Perhaps the mission should have stopped there and we should have restarted? I dont know. We are a younger squad, we only have been in existence since last year. Its basically a learning experience for all of us.

The senior members have always used constructive criticism directly on our forum where everyone can see, and we havent had any trouble with any new members in the past before this one.

T_O_A_D
01-25-2007, 11:14 AM
Sounds like your squad is not ready for Pilots like him.

And Pilots like him are not ready for your squad.

Just make the seperation, and next time around, try and fix what you have come to realize was broke this time around.

Experience and knowledge seldom comes free or cheap. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

I'm not exactly comforatable with this being aired out here.

I think it would best be served if it was delt with Internally.

I would also advise that getting a CO, and staff from a more seasoned Squadron you are friends with, and ask them for advise on how to make your squad better than it is.

Asking an open forum leeds to haveing inexperienced arm chair CO's filling your head with nonesence.

It also lets the offended see and coralate even more offense from said problem, in the public eye.

It also lets the public eye, see how your squad is not stable, and allows them judge your squad, to a point that can neuter it, from now on, in reputation.

EyeoftheChicken
01-25-2007, 11:15 AM
Sorry, but this just sounds like something that in no way belongs here. Do you really think all newbs act that way? I doubt it. Sounds like someone burst your squadron fantasy role, and that's you and your squad-mates issue.

XyZspineZyX
01-25-2007, 11:18 AM
So...I cant ask for other's opinions? Thanks I'll know for next time.

T_O_A_D
01-25-2007, 11:24 AM
Sorry I made an edit above, while you was reading, post after mine.

It would be nice to have a CO forum.

XyZspineZyX
01-25-2007, 11:50 AM
Thanks T_O_A_D.

We are having discussions with the CO as we speak.

All who have contributed sensibly, I thank you and I take all serious comments and opinions into valuable consideration.

BaronUnderpants
01-25-2007, 12:00 PM
Dont know if anyone commented on it but....hes a "newbie" right. And what do you and your squad do the first time hes on a mission of this sort...ever? Thats right...u in effect make him flight leader and then your suprised he messed up?

Im not.



His flight leader abandoned him..due to a phone call....theres your problem, if there is any problem at all.


Either its a game, and you and your squad should treat it as such..and your newcommers accordingly.


Or its "real"..in wich case a wing leader never ever leave a "newb" alone...especially not due to a phone call.

But thats just me.



U do say u gave him "constructive" critisism...since i dont know what that intaled i just have to fill in the blanks myselfe.

He shouldnt get any kind of critisism what so ever in this case...in my oppinion.

Maby a pat on the back and "youll do better next time"...thats about it.

FoolTrottel
01-25-2007, 01:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BaronUnderpants:
Dont know if anyone commented on it but....hes a "newbie" right. And what do you and your squad do the first time hes on a mission of this sort...ever? Thats right...u in effect make him flight leader and then your suprised he messed up?

Im not.



His flight leader abandoned him..due to a phone call....theres your problem, if there is any problem at all.


Either its a game, and you and your squad should treat it as such..and your newcommers accordingly.


Or its "real"..in wich case a wing leader never ever leave a "newb" alone...especially not due to a phone call.

But thats just me.



U do say u gave him "constructive" critisism...since i dont know what that intaled i just have to fill in the blanks myselfe.

He shouldnt get any kind of critisism what so ever in this case...in my oppinion.

Maby a pat on the back and "youll do better next time"...thats about it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hey, you just typed what I was thinkin'! Good job on that, saves me lots of time!

Meaning: 'I approve of this post' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

XyZspineZyX
01-25-2007, 02:05 PM
Any form of "constructive criticism" is anything he may or may not have done that would improve his game and experience with us. I know it doesnt sound this way when you read it, but I didnt want to go into useless detail on this.

In this case its just that trying to blame others for his errors was badly accepted perhaps because it was wrongfully interpreted. As said, its not a single thing that gave him a bad experience, but rather a combination of things that went wrong.

I guess we can give it a rest...

MB_Avro_UK
01-25-2007, 04:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
It's supposed to be fun. If a member of the squad is making it "un-fun" then it's probably best for everybody if they find a different group to fly with.

In the long run, personality is more imporatant than ability. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good post and also my view http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Our MB squad are friends first and members second. We are British,German and Dutch. I have met most members face to face over a beer or two http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif.

On line comms and seeing how a guy flies counts for a lot. It's not the winning but the partaking that counts...

In my opinion,you can tell a lot about a guy's maturity and attitude from his on-line behaviour even before he's invited to join.

We MBs don't openly invite membership but recruit from those who chose to join us flying online if suitable.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Viper2005_
01-25-2007, 05:19 PM
For once I agree with josf - far better for the learner to lead than to follow.

Following is hard. You've got to do all the aircraft management stuff, stay in formation with the leader and keep both his 6 and your own 6 clear. Otherwise you risk being called a useless n00b when your wingleader gets bounced....

Chances are that this guy was overloaded by the full switch environment.

I also think that he did the right thing heading off to investigate the contacts. Close escort is useless unless you want a grandstand view of dying bomber pilots. Rather than attempting to "save" them from attack at close range, you need to clear the airspace 10 km or more ahead of the bombers so that they don't get attacked in the first place. It sounds as though this individual was trying to do that.

As for simply turning onto a reciprocal course, I'm afraid that just doesn't work most of the time. The bombers are moving.

Let's say that the bombers are flying due north at 250 mph TAS and 10,000 ft. Let's say I turn left by 30º to investigate a contact, and I pour on the coals so that I fly out perhaps 5 miles to the contacts at 350 mph TAS. What heading do I fly to rejoin the bombers?

It isn't a trivial problem. In fact, off the top of my head it seems likely to turn into a differential equation.

The answer of course is that if the bombers are still flying due north you should turn right by about 30-40º and if you're lucky you'll then intercept them on track. But that relies upon eyeballing them to correct your rough guesstimate.

If they happen to fly into cloud you don't have a hope.

***

Let's look at the situation from the top down:

* You put him into a situation for which he wasn't ready at the best of times.
* Due to unforeseen circumstances he was then put under more pressure than you intended.
* He made a decision based upon the information available to him at the time to go out alone and investigate 4 bogeys in order to protect the bombers and do his job.
* He then messed up and lost the picture.
* You vectored him home.
* He landed, presumably without hurting himself.

I think you're on rather thin ice talking about errors of judgement. He made a judgement call to investigate bogeys away from the bomber stream. As I and others have said in this thread, that seems like a good call (certainly better than sticking his head in the sand) - as for the odds, he's flying a fast aeroplane, so he has options. Staying with the bombers doesn't really help the situation since B-25s are no match for fighters, and therefore could not assist if the 4 bogeys elected to engage the single Tempest.

Personally I'd tell the bombers what I was doing, go for the contacts at speed and take a firing pass at them if they looked hostile. I'd then continue at speed hoping to drag them away from the bomber stream. Chances are that I wouldn't get lost, but that's one of the advantages of experience.

Of course, once I'd ID'd the bogeys I'd be able to inform the bombers who could then make themselves scarce (perhaps diving for cloud) if the bogeys turned out to be hostile. Of course, as I've said, the chances are that I wouldn't get myself lost, but show me a pilot who has never been unsure of his position and I'll show you either an idiot or a liar. He told you about it and you got him home. Good job. IRL there's many a pilot who has QDM'd his way home after becoming "uncertain of his position". Not to mention all the guys calling up on 121.5 asking for a "training" fix...

I must say that if I were placed in the position you described, I might be rather loath to accept criticism of a difficult judgement call made in the heat of the moment.

I also note that he doesn't appear to have mis-identified the bogeys and had a blast at them, or otherwise committed cardinal sins in flight.

*edit* he also appears to have survived the mission...

***

I don't believe in reliance upon written mission briefs. Far better to take the time to give a verbal briefing. When you've finished, the most important part of the brief is:

<span class="ev_code_red">"Any questions?"</span>

Verbal mission briefs are very useful. They ensure that you know what you're doing, and that your team knows what they're doing. They are also an excellent teaching tool. Get the student to give the brief - then you'll see exactly what he knows, what he doesn't know, how he thinks and how he interacts with his team. You may then ask leading questions at the end to ensure that the necessary points are covered.

It is very important to get your planning right. If you want to take things seriously, you might expect to spend 2-4 times as long planning the mission as you do flying it initially. Obviously, once everybody in the team is up to speed things can speed up considerably. But you should never take planning and briefing for granted.

***

You might not like what he has said, or the manner in which he has said it, but IMO you have been given some very useful criticism and should learn from this incident. In the final analysis, if your training procedure is up to scratch, the only explanation for this incident is a broken selection process. From the sound of it, there's probably a bit of both going on.

Don't take it personally. Learn from it.

At least that's my tuppence worth.

DKoor
01-25-2007, 05:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skunk241981:
Any form of "constructive criticism" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Just post either;
1-the track
2-events.log or log.lst

...of the event in question. If you like us to be your judges.
Not that I don't believe you, just I'd like to see the event.

Of course you've recorded it?
So you can review track later and point him to his errors as newbie?
It was the first flight of your new teammate so squad can review it too?

XyZspineZyX
01-25-2007, 07:32 PM
I didnt ask any one to judge. I asked for opinions on the matter, in this given situation.

Viper pretty much summed up what I wanted to hear.

BfHeFwMe
01-25-2007, 08:04 PM
I'd walk away too.

We don't tolerate that military stuff, my squad is in it for the fun, and secondly the fun. We have no need for commanders nor squad leaders, all formal members are equal whether and when they choose to participate. There is no such thing as a noob or a vet, your either one of us, or a legitimate target. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

If you need rules and regulations, you need to mosey along on down the road. We stick tight because it's the best way to succeed, and we're having the best of times doing it.

If it isn't fun for everyone, it won't last, nor take off and grow. You should fly noobs on fun maps, like flight obstacle courses with target drones, than work them through one on one training. Always show the fun side first and break the ice. Than you can get a good estimation on who your dealing with.

You had no right to critic him if you failed to announce it was an evaluation flight.

badatit
01-25-2007, 08:48 PM
I think the "Refly" button would have been the best thing, after maybe having a bit of fun with him (I'd would have went looking for him in my plane. And if I find him before his lead gets back.... shot him down for getting lost MUhahahahahah!). After everyone was off the phone, had their smoke, and a fresh drink "refly".

Some missions are just doomed to failure.
When this becomes apparent "it's every man for himself". You dont want any of my squad behind you at this time. This tactic keeps us on our toes.
ie; So in so wants to join the co-op...Go evasive and scan for targets imediately.

Sounds like he was clearly out of his element.
Maybe a mission with AI attacking AA out ahead, and everybody else stay with the bombers. Or vice versa.

Did you (or his lead) tell him at the mission start, to physically write down anything? He was probally just doing his best to keep tally on his lead (with no idea that lead may have to take a phone call...or "gulp" be shot down).

The debreif was probally salt into the wound on his bruised ego. Was a written debreif really nessasary?
Maybe a couple of cute lines and a hyper-link to the tutorial (that he did'nt read) that that covered those two or three specific circ_mstances.
Take the hint ACE Read up LOL (something light)

I've seen it before young kid wants to show his stuff, but cant/wont follow direction/ gets drawers in a wad/ etc,etc...., but never in a forum. Something like this is best settled with a private STAFF meeting. STAFF being the hard core of the squad (reguardless of rank).
Salute

Copperhead310th
01-25-2007, 08:53 PM
First of all YOU shouldn't be handling anything. you've done the job you were asgined, (either poorly, or exceptiomnaly) in emplementing a training regime for the new squad memebes. There is a chain of command. follow it. pass it up to Ops. if the Ops officer can't find a saloution, give it to the XO, that don't work stroll the trainee into the bosses office. there is allways a way to work out a problem. I'm speaking from experiance of running a succseful squadron for 5 years.

As far as how Aristo, Spyder, Jeckel, Crash or any of the Sr. Staff Officers with JG27 would have handled it, i can't say. i'm on the bottom of the totem pole now (hapily) as jg27_Copperhead.

However, 310thCopperhead would have called them into his office, (which was my private ts channel) and had a good long talk with both the trainee & the instrutor as well as the flight leader he was asigned to. 1st of all i'd have to question Ops, & the Squadron training officer on thier descition to take this cadet into a combat situation such as a coop with out any Basic Flight Training. Just telling some one to familierise them selvs with a piticilar aircraft in 3 weeks time is not enough.
it takes time & HANDS ON TRAINING. and yes i am speaking of the sim. you do not just leave a trainee to thier own devices compleatly. you scedule flight practice, send them up with the flight leader, his winman, & the, Squadrons Sr. training officer. and work on the basics, Situational awareness, navigation, basic ACM, formations and flying formations as well as scramble take off, & cordenated group take offs / landings. This goes for vet pilots who have just joined the squad as well as the total NooB trainee that wouldn't know a magneto from a cowl flap. Reason for this is, all squadrons do things differantly . and both Cadet & old hand have to learn how things are done in YOUR squadron. so if you do not ahve a vbasic familerzation course devlop one.

Next you then progessively after a week or so you bring him into flying with the group as a whole, and work your way up to combat missions. Starting with coops and then full flight wing missions in the hot DF servers. all in all it takes about 2 to 4 weeks to train a total noob to be a combat effective member of a squadron in this sim. dependimng on what thier real world experiance is in life. that's if you do it the RIGHT way, take no shortcuts, and follow the squadrons training officers course to the letter.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
<span class="ev_code_RED">BASICALLY IT IS THE SQUADRONS SR. TRAINING OFFICERS JOB TO TEACH. IT IS THE TRAINEE'S JOB TO LEARN WHAT HE IS TAUGHT.</span> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This includes, reading the curiculem, watching vintage training films if avalible, as well as guncamera footage, and manuals. Any trainee who doesnt want to follow the squadrons training requirements is NOT a worthy canidate and should be advised that he doesnt meet the expectatiions of the group and should be KINDLY dismissed with the utmost respect & consideration.
Likewise any training officer who fails to perform his asigned duties adequtely should be repremanded and/ or reasigned to another position with in the squadron At the absolute discretion of the Comanding Officer.

That's how 310thCopperhead would have handeled the situation.

I could go into more deatal but it's getting late. and my typos are getting worse lol.

Badsight-
01-25-2007, 09:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
In the long run, personality is more imporatant than ability. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>people joined up to squads are agreeing to spend their free time together

what faust said is far more important if your wanting the squad to last

Copperhead310th
01-25-2007, 09:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by T_O_A_D:
Sounds like your squad is not ready for Pilots like him.

And Pilots like him are not ready for your squad.

Just make the seperation, and next time around, try and fix what you have come to realize was broke this time around.

Experience and knowledge seldom comes free or cheap. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

I'm not exactly comforatable with this being aired out here.

I think it would best be served if it was delt with Internally.

I would also advise that getting a CO, and staff from a more seasoned Squadron you are friends with, and ask them for advise on how to make your squad better than it is.

Asking an open forum leeds to haveing inexperienced arm chair CO's filling your head with nonesence.

It also lets the offended see and coralate even more offense from said problem, in the public eye.

It also lets the public eye, see how your squad is not stable, and allows them judge your squad, to a point that can neuter it, from now on, in reputation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with this 100% and i'll go as far as to say that my door is always open. you need any help or advise i'd be glad to oblige any time. just PM a TS adrees to me via the boards pm, and have the CO or Xo email me a time to get togher on ts.

LStarosta
01-25-2007, 10:02 PM
Christ, it's a video game...

Please, no shoe clerks.

Copperhead310th
01-25-2007, 10:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
Christ, it's a video game...

Please, no shoe clerks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is true.
however there is that emersion factor. some ppl, enjoy that sort of thing. i did for a long time. as did the guys in my old squad. we had a command structure, we were laid back but yet still a very military based aquadron. I designed it that way from the outset.
as opsed to JG27 where it's show up and fly and talk sh*t. lol wich is great for me for a change.

So some ppl like that sort of thing LStarosta , others don't to each there own. but either way a squadron is still a team. and this IS A TEAM BASED GAME. every team has to have a capt or it seases to function as it should. lone wolves don't last very long on some of the DF servers.

LStarosta
01-25-2007, 10:36 PM
On second thought, give him a 341, and if that doesn't modify the behavior, counsel him on a Form 17.

That ought to get the point across.

Bearcat99
01-25-2007, 10:59 PM
Often running a squad is like herding cats. In the end they are all grown men to some extent or other... and you cant control them. I have learned the personel will come and go. If he is disrespectful to you or one of the other squadmembers and they cant work it out like men and he wants to leave then let him go.

I founded the Redtails in this venue in 2002 with RedDiamond... for a long time, almost a year, it was just a two man squad.. Then we got Dancer... Flyby, Mobius... and eventually some of my former squadmates from CFS made it over here and we are what we are now. We have had members come and go... and some of them are sorely missed.. at least by me anyway (Can't speak for anyone else) but we are still here..... concentrate on having fun.... much of the other stuff will fall into place. If someone or something makes it no longer fun then changes are necessary...

Diplomacy first.... but don't let any of your members pi$$ on you and call it rain. I don't care if any of my squad members like me.... well... yes I do... but I DEMAND that they respect me... but I realize that they may not like me all the time.. I don't like me all the time... but you can't have members treating you like a butt rag. I say unless he apologizes.. you are better off without him. From what you said in here, his side is irrelevant. Move on.