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Viking-S
10-21-2005, 05:52 AM
?

Viking-S
10-21-2005, 05:52 AM
?

carguy_
10-21-2005, 06:05 AM
I want to correct the P38L late so it dissapears from the game.The other side of the issue flames me because USAAF finally gets an airplane in which you don`t have to be skilled to get kills/survive.
The other side of the issue does not care if there ever was such a thing like P38L late.

Same as two sides of homosexual marriages possibility issue.

SeaFireLIV
10-21-2005, 06:31 AM
This is why I say that at the end of the day it`s up to the creater of the sim, the head programmer, to draw the line.

Sure, he should listen to requests, corrobate facts and include anything that seems factually true and correct, but there are so many people who will issue their own versions and interpretations of evidence that it is simply impossible to please everyone. There are some people who really try to be unbiased, others who don`t care and others who are unconscously biased. Like said earlier, experience, ages and qualifications range from almost nothing to indepth knowledge...

And some will say, why should we accept what the sim`s creater/developer decides on, since he will be conscously/ unconscously biased too? Indeed, but there`s no truly unbiased Human on the planet, so the final decision by default must fall to the maker/boss, just as the final decision falls to the Commander of an army, whether he is right or wrong. And let`s be honest, Oleg`s done more than enough in trying to make all planes realistically accurate, listening when things sem wrong...

The only way to get truly objective, unbiased facts into a flight sim would be to have an Alien Robot computer created by other robots from a system many light years away that has studied ALL the available info from earth...

Then we may just get a truly unbiased and accurate sim... But there would still be whines from us humans cos we`re an annoying race for complaining, so it would never end...

pettera
10-21-2005, 06:59 AM
I guess everybody is biased in some sence. But, I firmly believe most whiners are a magnitude of order more biased than the developer of this game...

Every big nation seems to boost the opinion that "my country made incredibly good planes during WWII" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif. That might be true compared to the previous years armadas they often battled in the skies. However, compared to contemporary planes the battle was seldom easy.

Petter

arcadeace
10-21-2005, 07:07 AM
"But there would still be whines from us humans cos we`re an annoying race for complaining, so it would never end..."

That's the bottom line. And each one of us, opinionated as ever, make it hard fact. Some seemingly regardless of the subject.

Too bad we ain't never gonna shuffle slack jawed in the same direction, right? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kuna15
10-21-2005, 07:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If they documented ac like that i think we would have a happy satisfied community instead of you is wrong. - Leadspitter, Summer 2005 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The copy/paste of msalama's sig quote.

However I believe that it is impossible to please all people. That is the way the things in life usually are.

Bearcat99
10-21-2005, 07:27 AM
Well that is obvious... just look at the various posts from "I love the new patch." to "I'll never fly this sim again since you ruined it." This community will never be satisfied... it never has been and never will be.. thats why when I hear about how Oleg "caves in" to pressure from the XXXwhiners I just laugh. I think he does what he thinks is best right or wrong and his final goal is to get the sim to the best mix of realism and playability that todays technology will allow... no more no less. I think he is doing a great job of it too.

stubby
10-21-2005, 07:31 AM
if you filtered down the number of folks that actually do all the crying, pissin' and moaning in this forum, you would soon realize from a purely statistical point of view, the issue is a non issue. they represent such a small fraction of folks that actually purchased and fly the game that 1C his pretty much hit the 'mute' button on their crying. Though it may seem the 'community' is in total disagreement about everything, it's really just a few folks with the loudest mouths that make it seem so.

KGr.HH-Sunburst
10-21-2005, 07:34 AM
We whine, moan and B!tch all day long but at the end of the day 99,9% of us still keeps on playing this sim
Why?
well simple there is no replacement http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Pirschjaeger
10-21-2005, 07:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viking-S:
Like when you mix all the colours the result will be black!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You is wrong. It will be brown, dark brown. I have proofs. Be sure. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

You are bias and have a political agenda. You have never mixed all the colors. I have and can also submit specs, charts, and paint cam footage.

This forum is the wrong place to be stirring up paint. Call the mods, get this thread locked! I hate you! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

I agree with everything else you said, and it needed to be said. I like you. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Fritz http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Loki-PF
10-21-2005, 07:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
I want to correct the P38L late so it dissapears from the game.The other side of the issue flames me because USAAF finally gets an airplane in which you don`t have to be skilled to get kills/survive.
The other side of the issue does not care if there ever was such a thing like P38L late.

Same as two sides of homosexual marriages possibility issue. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't understand your post?

So youre a Homo P-38-Late Hater looking to get married?

F19_Ob
10-21-2005, 07:49 AM
I try to see things from the positive side. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BuzzU
10-21-2005, 07:56 AM
How are we to agree on an FM when it changes with every patch?

AI-1
10-21-2005, 07:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viking-S:
Is there seriously anyone who believes that the community of Il2 PF users will ever come to an agreement on the correctness of this sim?

Let€s have a quick look at why this never will be achieved.

First we have the geographical location of the user and with this come a more or less inherited political bias, often mixed and amplified with a strong nationalistic conviction lingering from both WW2 and the cold war.

Secondly we have a user€s age variation ranging from preteens to people who actually took part in this conflict.

Third the users have a variation on what they expect this simulation to be ranging from a game like CS in the sky to a €œdown to every rivet€ realistic air simulation. Some fly on the net collecting points and others enjoy it offline. Extremely few have any real piloting experience.

Fourth the user€s hardware is ranging from 10 year old computers with 15€ screens and no joy stick to the absolute latest in hardware and peripherals.

Fifth the users historical and technical knowledge of both the material involved in the conflict and the soft- and hardware used to run the simulation varies from €prenoob€ to professionals or semi-professional aficionados.

Sixth due to old age we have the limitation in the code of the sim to make it perform like we wish or expect it to.

You take all this, and probably a lot more that I can€t think of at the moment, poor it in a bucket and mix! What do we get? Like when you mix all the colours the result will be black!
A bit like some of the debating in this forum.

So what I am trying to say is when you argue and debate for €œcorrection€ and adjustment etc remember that there is more than one side of both the problem and the solution.


I read somewhere in these forum a while ago that developers of a game stated that €œwe are getting complains from all sides so we must be close to right!€

Just my .02"! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed, this is why while I think users provide valuable input, Oleg and Team should keep a tight wrap on the code and maintain control as they have done. Also that while mistakes may be made by them, which I consider to be very few in reality considering the sheer scale of the task in hand, it really is the only productive way forward. At least, no-one has provided (IMO) strong enough arguement for alternatives (shudder). What really has me ROLF'ing though is a pervading belief by some of 'Oleg bias' because of this being porked and that being uber depending on which side of the fence they perch themselves.

Do you guys really, truelly believe your own prattle?

Isn't it more reasonable to believe that Oleg and Team do what they do a) to put food on the table b) to build and reinforce good reputation in and around the flight sim industry so they can continue to do A. If anyone does think otherwise then I'd like to politely ask them to remind themselves of the size of the team, the scale of this sim (not forgetting the development of BOB) and the enduring committment made to it and the community (and thats with gross hostility directed at them at times). And if my understanding of the hours Oleg commits is correct, how the man hasn't thrown in the towel through fatigue and gone off into the sunset so to speak, I don't know; How is it he can be so committed and yet at the same time be intentionally biased, IMHO its not practically possible.

The man (& team) constitutes a flight sim God(s) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif (AI-1 now dons fanboi protective ware)

O and even though I fully expect fanboi flaming here, IMHO anyone who has played IL2/FB/PF for any lengh of time AND is still here IS a fanboi to an extent, making those that say ney a little hypocritical IMO, but hey what do I know I just play the thing and read these here forums...

Regards

AI-1

P.s. no intention to incite here, just expressing MO like everyone else here. S~ http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

WOLFMondo
10-21-2005, 08:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KGr.HH-Sunburst:
We whine, moan and B!tch all day long but at the end of the day 99,9% of us still keeps on playing this sim
Why?
well simple there is no replacement http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't know if thats a good or bad thing but its the truth of the matter.

Regardless, We've all got great value for money.

Udidtoo
10-21-2005, 08:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BuzzU:
How are we to agree on an FM when it changes with every patch? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Friendly_flyer
10-21-2005, 08:18 AM
If we all agreed, this forum would be dead boring.

Brain32
10-21-2005, 08:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> If we all agreed, this forum would be dead boring. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MEGILE
10-21-2005, 09:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Friendly_flyer:
If we all agreed, this forum would be dead boring. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree 100%

Kuna15
10-21-2005, 09:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Friendly_flyer:
If we all agreed, this forum would be dead boring. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree 100% </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I tend to disagree.

BSS_Goat
10-21-2005, 09:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kuna15:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Friendly_flyer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
If we all agreed, this forum would be dead boring. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree 100% </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I tend to disagree. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You is all wrong.....be sure

FM_BurningEagle
10-21-2005, 09:58 AM
Mixing all colours gives only one colour and that is white. All this being only a trick from the brain that uses what is perceived through retinal sensors that are sensitive to red green and blue.

In fact in reality you get up a mess of mixed light photons of a multitude of different frequencies.

So it is up to us to decide wether the multitude of opinions is just a big mess or from this mess comes out light in it's purest form that is white.

Our brain in his infinite wisdom has choosen to see white. I think we should do the same.

Gold

Kuna15
10-21-2005, 10:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FM_BurningEagle:
Mixing all colours gives only one colour and that is white. All this being only a trick from the brain that uses what is perceived through retinal sensors that are sensitive to red green and blue.

In fact in reality you get up a mess of mixed light photons of a multitude of different frequencies.

So it is up to us to decide wether the multitude of opinions is just a big mess or from this mess comes out light in it's purest form that is white.

Our brain in his infinite wisdom has choosen to see white. I think we should do the same.

Gold </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That means that our brain is biased http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Perhaps it's not us (character) then... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
10-21-2005, 10:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Udidtoo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BuzzU:
How are we to agree on an FM when it changes with every patch? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We still have an FM?

Ta,
Norris

Bearcat99
10-21-2005, 10:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KGr.HH-Sunburst:
We whine, moan and B!tch all day long but at the end of the day 99,9% of us still keeps on playing this sim
Why?
well simple there is no replacement http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Speak for yourself... I don't whine, bitc# & moan.... I take the sim as it is.. warts and all.... since in it's worse incarnation it is still hands down better than any other WW2 sim on the market.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BuzzU:
How are we to agree on an FM when it changes with every patch? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It isnt up to us to agree on the FMs...... thank goodness.. or we wouldnt have FMs.... we dont agree on the FMs and I think thats the point of this thread..... uhhh How ya doin Buzz...... long time no see? Tell Tolwyn to let me into CWOS.....

faustnik
10-21-2005, 10:14 AM
Bearcat,

You can't get into CWOS still??? Please PM me your exact CWOS handle and I will get it to T. He'll fix it.

Did you manage to get banned? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

fordfan25
10-21-2005, 10:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
I want to correct the P38L late so it dissapears from the game.The other side of the issue flames me because USAAF finally gets an airplane in which you don`t have to be skilled to get kills/survive.
The other side of the issue does not care if there ever was such a thing like P38L late.

Same as two sides of homosexual marriages possibility issue. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

then there are the people who dont actualy GET that there was in fact a p-38 late it was just not called the p-38late. its the same guys who think it is an easy plane to fly dispite the fact its one of the toughst planes to fly well. its also the same people who are just upset that the USA finaly got a plane that ALMOST meats its real life performnce. its also the same guys who cant seem to pull one shread of offical documents outa there a$$'s to prove there argument and blindly ignore all the actual offical documents and test reports that guys like TAGERT and GIBBAGE post that shows very clearly that the p-38"late" was in fact just a boosted p-38L.

fordfan25
10-21-2005, 10:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Loki-PF:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
I want to correct the P38L late so it dissapears from the game.The other side of the issue flames me because USAAF finally gets an airplane in which you don`t have to be skilled to get kills/survive.
The other side of the issue does not care if there ever was such a thing like P38L late.

Same as two sides of homosexual marriages possibility issue. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't understand your post?

So youre a Homo P-38-Late Hater looking to get married? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Bearcat99
10-21-2005, 10:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
Bearcat,

You can't get into CWOS still??? Please PM me your exact CWOS handle and I will get it to T. He'll fix it.

Did you manage to get banned? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me? Banned from CWOS? LMAO.. I dont think so.. That would take a lot.... LOL.. pretty thick skinned bunch over there... I went to reregister after the change over.. and I get to the log in screen.. but I never get the confirmation email.... so henceforth I cant get in.. I'm sure it is some technical glitch.... Bearcat was my handle...

achtung2004
10-21-2005, 10:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

The only way to get truly objective, unbiased facts into a flight sim would be to have an Alien Robot computer created by other robots from a system many light years away that has studied ALL the available info from earth...

Then we may just get a truly unbiased and accurate sim... But there would still be whines from us humans cos we`re an annoying race for complaining, so it would never end... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am pretty sure the hitch-hikers guide to the galaxy addressed this. And the answer as I recall was.........

42

faustnik
10-21-2005, 10:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
Bearcat,

You can't get into CWOS still??? Please PM me your exact CWOS handle and I will get it to T. He'll fix it.

Did you manage to get banned? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me? Banned from CWOS? LMAO.. I dont think so.. That would take a lot.... LOL.. pretty thick skinned bunch over there... I went to reregister after the change over.. and I get to the log in screen.. but I never get the confirmation email.... so henceforth I cant get in.. I'm sure it is some technical glitch.... Bearcat was my handle... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bearcat,

Can you PM you email to me please.

Daiichidoku
10-21-2005, 10:49 AM
please...

every planes in this game is "no skill"

just that some stand out as having a "might as well have a one button track, lock and launch guided SAM" no skill factor, such as La7s http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

actually, any 38 or zero or jet (or bomber) for example, are not quite as forgiving, and take a lot more SA and THOUGHT to be able to get clean kills and RTB in one piece



anyhow, ignore what i said, and anyone else did in regards the 38L..this is NOT a 38 thread...keep it ON topic plz



oh yea...bla bla bla patch ba-blablabla

Kuna15
10-21-2005, 10:50 AM
@ Bearcat I remember that I also had some problems when registering on new CWoS forum (I think I have clicked on some old bookmarked links that didn't work anymore).
iirc IL-2 forum was renamed to CWoS FB forum (at first I thought they were gone).

Try from CWoS main site, just maybe that would help -- if you didn't do it already (in a case of some old links):
http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

edit: I see faustnik will help you out to solve the issue http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HayateAce
10-21-2005, 11:53 AM
Agree 100%!

4.02 is the leet sheet.

SeaNorris
10-21-2005, 11:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_Goat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kuna15:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Friendly_flyer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
If we all agreed, this forum would be dead boring. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree 100% </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I tend to disagree. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You is all wrong.....be sure </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

/lies, you is wrong, BE SURE!

Loki-PF
10-21-2005, 12:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Udidtoo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BuzzU:
How are we to agree on an FM when it changes with every patch? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We still have an FM?

Ta,
Norris </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now *that* was truely funny! But whats that top bit? Treacle, or a blancmange?

MEGILE
10-21-2005, 12:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaNorris:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_Goat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kuna15:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Friendly_flyer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
If we all agreed, this forum would be dead boring. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree 100% </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I tend to disagree. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You is all wrong.....be sure </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

/lies, you is wrong, BE SURE! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree 95.6%

major_setback
10-21-2005, 01:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaNorris:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_Goat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kuna15:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Friendly_flyer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
If we all agreed, this forum would be dead boring. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree 100% </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I tend to disagree. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You is all wrong.....be sure </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

/lies, you is wrong, BE SURE! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree 95.6% </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I refuse to not disagree! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Be unsure! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

MEGILE
10-21-2005, 01:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by major_setback:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaNorris:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_Goat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kuna15:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Friendly_flyer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
If we all agreed, this forum would be dead boring. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree 100% </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I tend to disagree. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You is all wrong.....be sure </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

/lies, you is wrong, BE SURE! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree 95.6% </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I refuse to not disagree! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Be unsure! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure about that

Badsight.
10-21-2005, 02:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pettera:
I guess everybody is biased in some sence. But, I firmly believe most whiners are a magnitude of order more biased than the developer of this game... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>not at all !

i have zero bias - i fly for whatever side needs the numbers regardless of plane

my only interest is in accurate FM physics , i hate it when it seems the game gets "Balanced" to suit the online community

"balance" has NO PLACE in a historical simulation

SeaNorris
10-21-2005, 02:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by major_setback:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaNorris:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_Goat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kuna15:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Friendly_flyer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
If we all agreed, this forum would be dead boring. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree 100% </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I tend to disagree. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You is all wrong.....be sure </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

/lies, you is wrong, BE SURE! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree 95.6% </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I refuse to not disagree! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Be unsure! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure about that </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Must agree! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

danjama
10-21-2005, 03:06 PM
Can i get in on this action? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

arcadeace
10-21-2005, 03:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viking-S:
Perhaps I should add:
Seventh some posters wish to make a contribution while others only wish to increase their post count. You are what you post so to speak!

And yes this thread is about why we will never find that golden in between where we all will find a complete and everlasting satisfaction that the FM and the XX etc etc is exactly as in real life or rather as we expect or even demand it to be.
The debate and arguments will continue and this is one of the things that make this forum and the interaction between users and the developer so special and interesting. My intention is only to point out the obstacles, although obvious to some, in order to make some respect and understanding as to why we will never reach that golden goal.

It is however important to point out that, as usual, there is more that unites then divides us in this our strive for perfection!

Regards

viking </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Frankly I think guys like Mergile keep things in perspective, its obvious few are above it. They€re just responding to a never ending fact of reality, not taking it so serious as to be serious.

I believe your sincerity here but since you are serious, start with your own participation; a lofty post won't accomplish anything. Lead by example regardless of subject matter and you€ll earn the ability to have greater influence.

BuzzU
10-21-2005, 06:48 PM
I agree we all disagree to agree. You on the other hand disagree that I agree we all disagree. I don't agree with that, and you agree with me on that. Even though you disagree with the other agreement, or was it disagreement?

WTF am I saying?

Beats me, but I agree with it.

danjama
10-21-2005, 07:01 PM
I feel inclined to agree http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

sakai2005
10-21-2005, 07:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viking-S:
Is there seriously anyone who believes that the community of Il2 PF users will ever come to an agreement on the correctness of this sim?

Let€s have a quick look at why this never will be achieved.

First we have the geographical location of the user and with this come a more or less inherited political bias, often mixed and amplified with a strong nationalistic conviction lingering from both WW2 and the cold war.

Secondly we have a user€s age variation ranging from preteens to people who actually took part in this conflict.

Third the users have a variation on what they expect this simulation to be ranging from a game like CS in the sky to a €œdown to every rivet€ realistic air simulation. Some fly on the net collecting points and others enjoy it offline. Extremely few have any real piloting experience.

Fourth the user€s hardware is ranging from 10 year old computers with 15€ screens and no joy stick to the absolute latest in hardware and peripherals.

Fifth the users historical and technical knowledge of both the material involved in the conflict and the soft- and hardware used to run the simulation varies from €prenoob€ to professionals or semi-professional aficionados.

Sixth due to old age we have the limitation in the code of the sim to make it perform like we wish or expect it to.

You take all this, and probably a lot more that I can€t think of at the moment, poor it in a bucket and mix! What do we get? Like when you mix all the colours the result will be black!
A bit like some of the debating in this forum.

So what I am trying to say is when you argue and debate for €œcorrection€ and adjustment etc remember that there is more than one side of both the problem and the solution.


I read somewhere in these forum a while ago that developers of a game stated that €œwe are getting complains from all sides so we must be close to right!€

Just my .02"! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Viking how many here have flown ww2 fighter planes?.I bet maybey 2 or 3 max so dont even think that there will be a agreement on anything.even the words of those that have flown a ww2 fighter will be ignored. the joy stick hero,s rule here .

wayno7777
10-21-2005, 09:55 PM
Okaaaaaaaaay, "FM, no static at all." is wrong, I see.....

JG52_Manteo
10-21-2005, 10:28 PM
No, they will never come to an agreement. But take a look at this clip of me goofing off.
http://www.rockwolfe.com/images/190Wheely.wmv
Would you ever be able to do this in a real FW190 without destroying the landing gear? Hell no. But it's fun anyway. So I geuss thats what it's all about. If you want full realism go fly the real thing if you can. So we are stuck with this sim. I admire all the time and work that went into it and I apreciate it. &lt;S&gt; http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Loco-S
10-21-2005, 11:27 PM
hehehe...year after year..the whining continues....nothing has changed here since 2001.

Bearcat99
10-21-2005, 11:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:

Bearcat,

Can you PM you email to me please. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is in my sig....

WTE_Ibis
10-22-2005, 01:10 AM
I'd like to have a little whine about the whine whiners having a whine about the whiners out of whining time.
There should be a sticky for that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Monty_Thrud
10-22-2005, 03:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pettera:
I guess everybody is biased in some sence. But, I firmly believe most whiners are a magnitude of order more biased than the developer of this game... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>not at all !

i have zero bias - i fly for whatever side needs the numbers regardless of plane

my only interest is in accurate FM physics , i hate it when it seems the game gets "Balanced" to suit the online community

"balance" has NO PLACE in a historical simulation </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have zee answers too zee qvestions vitch vee seek, HAND ZEM OVER!, and vee vill set your Poodle free, fail to do zis and it vill be Poodle pie, ja, you dig http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Pirschjaeger
10-22-2005, 03:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaNorris:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by major_setback:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaNorris:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_Goat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kuna15:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Friendly_flyer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
If we all agreed, this forum would be dead boring. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree 100% </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I tend to disagree. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You is all wrong.....be sure </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

/lies, you is wrong, BE SURE! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree 95.6% </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I refuse to not disagree! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Be unsure! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure about that </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Must agree! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Fritz

SeaNorris
10-22-2005, 04:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaNorris:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by major_setback:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaNorris:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_Goat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kuna15:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Friendly_flyer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
If we all agreed, this forum would be dead boring. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree 100% </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I tend to disagree. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You is all wrong.....be sure </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

/lies, you is wrong, BE SURE! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree 95.6% </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I refuse to not disagree! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Be unsure! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure about that </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Must agree! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Of course, we'll never all agree, thats the way this game and forums are.