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View Full Version : Semi-vulching, near as bad as true vulching!!



mortoma
02-02-2006, 06:30 AM
I don't fly online very much and when I do, I rarely fly in dogfight servers. But the other night in the Swiss-dedicated server, I noticed there are a few people who wait above your airfield and pounce on you from above, before you can attain much speed, energy or altitude. Believe me, they start out with all three so you have no advantage whatever and usually succumb to thier lilly-livered style of fighting. My 10 year old niece could get kills like that!! Seems to be almost as bad as vulching. When I asked several of them to meet me on equal terms, they usually avoided it like true cowards. Back to flying offline and I can't wait!!

mortoma
02-02-2006, 06:30 AM
I don't fly online very much and when I do, I rarely fly in dogfight servers. But the other night in the Swiss-dedicated server, I noticed there are a few people who wait above your airfield and pounce on you from above, before you can attain much speed, energy or altitude. Believe me, they start out with all three so you have no advantage whatever and usually succumb to thier lilly-livered style of fighting. My 10 year old niece could get kills like that!! Seems to be almost as bad as vulching. When I asked several of them to meet me on equal terms, they usually avoided it like true cowards. Back to flying offline and I can't wait!!

ImpStarDuece
02-02-2006, 06:32 AM
What if I do the same thing at 24,000 feet, when you are at 20,000 feet?

WTE_Wombat
02-02-2006, 06:40 AM
This is a clear case of a badly designed map.

A) There should be enough flak at each base to make hanging around dangerous. - Single passes should be OK but not hanging around.

B) There should be alternate bases available for you to move to.

I don't know the server you were on but if you are on Hyperlobby there are quite a few servers that have decent maps.

I recommend the Australian Skies server.

Here's a tip. Spawn campers generally do not like servers with harder settings like 'No External Views' and 'Cockpit Always On' so look for servers with these two settings.

msalama
02-02-2006, 06:57 AM
Man, you take it too seriously. DF servers are for a**ing around and that's it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

rnzoli
02-02-2006, 07:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
What if I do the same thing at 24,000 feet, when you are at 20,000 feet? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
We can do a spiral dive to evade at 20.000 ft, but not at 2000. The options under 3000 ft are more limited by the ground level. I can only think of
- climb over AAA protection
- climb together with a friendly
- take off from another airfield
- if you are truly good, you can do repetitive scissors or wide barrel-rolls to force the high-speed attacker to overshoot, and climb in-between attacks.

TgD Thunderbolt56
02-02-2006, 07:17 AM
It's a cowardly tactic if you're on the recieving end, but a tactic nonetheless. This is the very reason there should be at least one or more pilots that will CAP a friendly base until his buddies can get enough "E" to be effective.

If not, then a simple alternative would be to take off and stay low until you're out of the area. Then climb en route to the target area.

Doesn't anyone remeber that ol' vulture Dove_of_Peace? He made vulching a science that easily turned into a suicide mission with the right counter-tactics. If you always just took off and slowly climbed out, you would die. If there was some friendly CAP and 'scramble' tactics were always applied, it was a minor annoyance...nothing more.


TB

Wingstrut_1
02-02-2006, 07:19 AM
Never, never trust the swiss. That's what my mother told me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Max.Power
02-02-2006, 07:22 AM
You should have a few different choices of dromes to take off or land at. If you have only one to take off from, it's bad design.

I don't mind so much being pressured on take off.. I'm a 190 driver, too, so if I'm just out of my take off roll, I'm about as threatening as a kitten on ativan.

On the other hand, what I hate is those bastards who wait until your gear is down on final. I mean, if you're gonna jump me while my nav lights are on, have the heart to do it while I have enough alt to bail out with. I happen to like my k/d ratio, and I even have a certain fondness for points (appropriately earned, of course).

What jerks.

Lucius_Esox
02-02-2006, 07:37 AM
Comms comms comms. Thats exactly what they are for.

If they are sucker enough to make multiple passes and lose their nrg (you gotta evade though) wait for your m8's and watch the fun.

Then go and do it to their base http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pirschjaeger
02-02-2006, 07:43 AM
Try another server.

Seriously, there aren´t too many servers that keep this situation. Hanging over an enemy base in reality would have gotten you killed pretty quickly.

Online is much better than offline.

Fritz

FatBoyHK
02-02-2006, 08:00 AM
I don't see any problem with that. In order to bounce you they need to fly low. Once they are low they will be easy picking by your buddies, use comms to notify you buddies about the presence of this "vulcher".

The points is, if you fly straight to the frontline immediately after take-off It is you who make a wrong decision. Fighter Sweep being setup between the frontline and the enmey base is a very useful, and nonetheless valid, tactic in a mission-oriented dogfight server.

and finally, the objective of air combat is to kill you enmey in the easiest way, not to fight him on equal terms.

Pirschjaeger
02-02-2006, 08:04 AM
I had this problem on a Chinese server. So I took off and flew low and fast to drag them as far from the base as possible. Then when far enough, I simply ditched the plane and spawned. I was on equal terms after. After I shot them down they left the server. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Fritz

rnzoli
02-02-2006, 08:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
So I took off and flew low and fast to drag them as far from the base as possible. Then when far enough, I simply ditched the plane and spawned. I was on equal terms after. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif The cleverest use of the refly button so far!

Kuna15
02-02-2006, 08:27 AM
I vulch whenever I can, I am real vulture when it comes to that.
Rarely anything pleases me more in this game than to riddle someone while he is retracting his gears up.
Of course two things are required for this to happen:
1-vulch thing is allowed
2-i wont risk too much

jds1978
02-02-2006, 10:29 AM
look for servers w/o icons and externals off

fordfan25
02-02-2006, 12:09 PM
thats my fav sport. as a expert "near vulcher" i will say it can be much harder tha it looks. in AFJ and 334th i dont fly with coms so im always on my own. the hard parts are when the targeted plane is takeing off he slow and seeing as you start off very high and have to keep up very high speeds all the way threw the dive or you risk haveing 4 or 5 fighters on your tail. thus you only have a very small window to get any hits. now if the targeted planes pilot has his head so far up his own butt and does not try to evade then thats his fault. eveading a "near vulthing" fighter is easy seeing as every body and there mother fly's la7s,1945 yaks,spits wich are very easy to turn even at 140mph.

but its hardly an easy kill. first you have to sneak to there base with out getting gang raped. then you have to keep high wich makes even seeing the planes on the ground hard. avoid any flak or aa. be wary of fighters that are lurking at alt. and fighters that are between you and your target that will be on you in a secound. then you have to get him lined up and dive down on him at very high speeds. contend with the woobly a$$ controls. get a fast hit and run like the wind.

normly i use bombs to "vultch" zoom climb and then try to catch one taeing off befor heading B2B. And flying eather a p-38 or a p-51 makes all off the above nearly as dangers to ones self as the target. so what im trying to say is would you care for some cheese.

mortoma
02-02-2006, 05:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
What if I do the same thing at 24,000 feet, when you are at 20,000 feet? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>It's very different in that case because you are not "hanging" out in a place you know an aircraft has to start out ( spawn ) to start flying. In this case, if you did what you say, it's ok in my book. In this case the guy was using external view to see what base I was spwning at and he'd be in between the only two enemy fields available for me to start at, and they were close together.

mortoma
02-02-2006, 05:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
I don't see any problem with that. In order to bounce you they need to fly low. Once they are low they will be easy picking by your buddies, use comms to notify you buddies about the presence of this "vulcher".

The points is, if you fly straight to the frontline immediately after take-off It is you who make a wrong decision. Fighter Sweep being setup between the frontline and the enmey base is a very useful, and nonetheless valid, tactic in a mission-oriented dogfight server.

and finally, the objective of air combat is to kill you enmey in the easiest way, not to fight him on equal terms. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't use comms, don't fly often enough to justify the use of them or even often enough to have buddies to begin with.

mortoma
02-02-2006, 05:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lucius_Esox:
Comms comms comms. Thats exactly what they are for.

If they are sucker enough to make multiple passes and lose their nrg (you gotta evade though) wait for your m8's and watch the fun.

Then go and do it to their base http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't use comms ( see above post ).

mortoma
02-02-2006, 05:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Max.Power:
You should have a few different choices of dromes to take off or land at. If you have only one to take off from, it's bad design.

I don't mind so much being pressured on take off.. I'm a 190 driver, too, so if I'm just out of my take off roll, I'm about as threatening as a kitten on ativan.

On the other hand, what I hate is those bastards who wait until your gear is down on final. I mean, if you're gonna jump me while my nav lights are on, have the heart to do it while I have enough alt to bail out with. I happen to like my k/d ratio, and I even have a certain fondness for points (appropriately earned, of course).

What jerks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>There were oly two to take off from and they were close together in this server.

mortoma
02-02-2006, 05:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Try another server.

Seriously, there aren´t too many servers that keep this situation. Hanging over an enemy base in reality would have gotten you killed pretty quickly.

Online is much better than offline.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Whether online is better is a matter of opinion. I like offline better, the only thing I truly dislike about offline is the limited and easy to kill AI, even Ace AI. But other than that, I like offline much, much better!!

Offline advantages:
1.) You can hit pause when you get called to dinner or get a phone call, then resume later at your leisure.
2.) No lag!! So no airplanes slowing down, speeding up ( warping ) or doing wierd things
like flying sideways for extended periods,, or even backwards.
3.) Offline gunnery is much more accurate due to no lag. Lag can ( usually does ) cause your bullets/shells to hit when in real life they would not, or visa versa. This is not the case offline.

Offline disadvantages:
1.) Bad AI


Online disadvantages:
1.) Coop and dogfight room makers design the severs for those with fast computers in most cases. I get terrible frame rates in a majority of cases because there may be more ground objects, more aircraft ( both human and AI ) and more flak/AAA than I like. This brings my slower/older PC to it's knees. Offline I can make my missions much more bearable for my PC.

Online advantages:
1.) You get to fly against humans who are less predictable and way more talented than the ace level AI.
2.) Some comraderie with fellows/ladies sharing the same hobby.



Overall, I chose offline as the winner!!! At least for me.

Pirschjaeger
02-02-2006, 10:39 PM
Mortoma, rather than comparing, why don´t you simply think of both as being totally different, like two different games? This is the reality, isn´t it?

mortoma
02-03-2006, 04:03 PM
Why not compare if you want?? Sure it's like two different games. But all is a matter of personal taste and all can compare the goods and bads if they so desire. That was all I was doing. I do happen to like offline better and that's my preference. I never said I hated online and I do in fact fly online at times to break up any boredom and keep things fresh. It has it's good points and I mentioned them.

Willey
02-03-2006, 04:57 PM
semi-vulching? That's still vulching. But that crappy gear-on-ground rule declares it as free-to-go.

Just a nice anti vulch method is to take something with a big bomb, wait for the vulcher to attack and blast him with that bomb. But that requires vulching allowed.

A good map has several possibilities to take care of vulchers. Multiple bases, a lot of AAA and such.

SeaFireLIV
02-03-2006, 05:22 PM
I have always said that OFFLINE has many advantages over ONLINE for these very reasons.

OFFLINE:
1.You can get on with the mission, no arsing about. you can do 4 missions and feel you`ve got somewhere, but offline you might spend 2 hours and feel empty from hearing all the whining.
2.The AI, while obviously not as good as competent Humans (how could they be? Do a very good job at fighting and flying with you. They won`t cheat in the human manner of cheating. They won`t whine at you. They`ll fight as part of a simulated war and not as some `fun` server, hovering over you to vulch continuously. The real real problem is AI, is you can`t chat to them, they have no personality and you won`t get a sense of camaraderie.

As said by mortoma, no lag, or suspicion of lag, issues.

Online has its positives, but only as part of a CO-OP or online war, not as dogfight servers where kids are all about constant flying in John Wayne/Rambo style.

Jetbuff
02-03-2006, 06:30 PM
So when is a vulch a vulch? Where do you draw the line? e.g. it could be argued that attacking a wounded plane with 3000m advantage is less sporting than attacking a guy about to takeoff with merely 500m of advantage.

I say avoid the hassle and build your missions to suit your expectations. If you don't want people hanging around bases, make the AA deadly and be sure to place more than 1 airbase per side, suitably spaced.

Stigler_9_JG52
02-03-2006, 06:30 PM
1) It's historical
2) Nothing is stopping you from checking around you when taking off.
3) It sometimes work to get on the chat buffer, tell the vulcher you see what he's doing, and tell him you won't take off and pad his score. (This works in DF servers so badly designed as not to give players a choice of which AF to take off from; which is a segue to...)
4) Take off from another field. Don't bother whining that this will make you fly http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif ~~5 or 10 whole more minutes~~; would you rather have those minutes to get that alt and energy that you complain the vulchers have? Or is it better for you to die in the first minute and complain about it? Your choice.

mortoma
02-03-2006, 09:22 PM
Who's whining?? Certainly not me. Just was only the second or third time I had ever flown on a DF server and I was surprised that people do that. Been flying sims for 13 years but rarely online, so it's an almost new experience.

And this particular person could only get kills by doing that. He was a coward. I judge other people's behavior in these types of things by my own behavior. And all I know is that I would never do that. It wouldn't be fun for one and for two a person should be able to get kills by flying and fighting in a more normal manner.

This is a game and not real life. Too bad that this type of thing is fair and excepted in real life, it's not cool to do in my opinion in a game and it's another reason why I don't like online very much. If a person is any good they should not have to fly like that. In real life it's different because your survival depends on NOT flying fair. In a game nobody's life is threatened, you are doing it to have fun. In a game if a person is worth his salt, I say let him show and prove it by meeting an enemy on more equal terms, let a person gain some altitude and speed before engaging. Not attack aircraft that can't defend themselves, which only proves they don't know how to fight/fly very well. This is just my opinion. I simply will not agree with any other opinion. You know what they say about a man convinced against his will.

mortoma
02-03-2006, 09:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jetbuff:
So when is a vulch a vulch? Where do you draw the line? e.g. it could be argued that attacking a wounded plane with 3000m advantage is less sporting than attacking a guy about to takeoff with merely 500m of advantage.

I say avoid the hassle and build your missions to suit your expectations. If you don't want people hanging around bases, make the AA deadly and be sure to place more than 1 airbase per side, suitably spaced. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I do not host internet play nor do I build my own online maps or missions. So your advice is irrelevant, I'm only a guest online when I do decide to do it.

Jetbuff
02-03-2006, 11:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
I do not host internet play nor do I build my own online maps or missions. So your advice is irrelevant, I'm only a guest online when I do decide to do it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Err... well then it wasn't directed at you was it? Feel free to ignore it.

Viper2005_
02-03-2006, 11:40 PM
What exactly is bad about vulching?

I think it's a very good thing. It punishes those with poor S.A. and a lack of common sense. If your airfield is under attack, or at immediate risk of attack, spawn somewhere else.

As for this "almost vulching" thing, I find that a very strange concept.

This is a war game. The objective is to destroy your enemy. Good pilots avoid getting into fights, because that gives the other guy a chance.

You should grab any advantage available to you with both hands and use it to cause maximum injury to your opponent.

If possible, kill him before he sees you; this greatly reduces the chances of him killing you!

Air combat is not all (or even mostly) about BFM, irrespective of what you may see in the movies.

Most fights are won long before the shooting starts, when the attacker sees the target and sets up a superior position.

People often have a mental image of aircombat as a chivalrous joust between knights of the air. Such people tend to get themselves killed when they try to dogfight online.

The reality is that it's more akin to a street mugging, wherein an unsuspecting victim wanders into the wrong area at the wrong time and is set upon ferociously from behind by a gang of ruthless thugs who are better armed, more experienced in the martial arts, and utterly ruthless.

Every defeat is a lesson. Learn from it; don't complain about it.

msalama
02-03-2006, 11:47 PM
Please let me repeat my plea of not taking this game too seriously.

That said, there're 2 things you can do about vulching if it bothers you:

1) Avoid servers where it is allowed.
2) Raise a ruckus if you encounter it on a server where it is forbidden.

Easy, innit?