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Triggaaar
09-02-2005, 10:49 AM
1st a couple of caveats.
1) I do not know much about planes at all.
2) I am not wanting to critisize what is a great game (no game is perfect) or start a war.

Reading the manual of FB, it notes that the "Hurricane is generally inferior to all 1941 fighters, and inadequate against all 1942 and later fighters."

Was it only good in 1940?
I had been under the impression that the Hurricane faired well against fighters after 1940.

Could someone let me know the facts.

Thanks

Triggaaar
09-02-2005, 10:49 AM
1st a couple of caveats.
1) I do not know much about planes at all.
2) I am not wanting to critisize what is a great game (no game is perfect) or start a war.

Reading the manual of FB, it notes that the "Hurricane is generally inferior to all 1941 fighters, and inadequate against all 1942 and later fighters."

Was it only good in 1940?
I had been under the impression that the Hurricane faired well against fighters after 1940.

Could someone let me know the facts.

Thanks

p1ngu666
09-02-2005, 10:55 AM
did ok, but couldnt climb,dive or go fast aswell as newer fighters

was used in burma untill the end actully

Daiichidoku
09-02-2005, 10:56 AM
more or less thats true....it wasnt the very best in its class...therefore, it was inferior

it did still have guns tho...and ANYTHING with guns is potentially dangerous, and not to be taken lightly..plus after the BoB it served as best it could as a fighter in far east too

was still utilized for a time as a groud attack ship tho, with big guns, inc a 40mm tank buster,

and bombs (and rockets?)



even though you dont know a lot, there is a wealth of info on the hurri all over the web and in your bookstore

p1ngu666
09-02-2005, 11:44 AM
yep, they used bombs and rockets

some also had the merlins altered like the LF vb, for low alt, gave a big increase in speed. sadly i dont have any info on that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

F19_Ob
09-02-2005, 12:19 PM
The cannon equipped hurricanes were still usefull for secondline duties after 1941 or to fill out places where fighter numbers were few.

The cannons made it possible to achieve kills against fighters aswell since one or a few hits could disable or destroy a plane on long range.
All hurricanes really were poor in performance in slowest and highest speed and best in medium speed.
A 109's gentle stall and superb accelleration made it possible to even outturn a hurricane in slowest speed because the hurri bleeds its energy so fast and when it's gone it takes long time to regain it. From slow speed a 109 may outclimb the hurricane or just outpace it in level flight and be out of effective gunrange in seconds.
Usually 109's can choose when to attack or when to leave, while hurricanes cant and are forced to stay until the 109's leave.

It's not too unusual to see a single 109 be chased by many hurricanes and get away, sometimes even from the cannonequipped hurricanes.
The opposit, that a hurricane escapes from a group of 109's is highly unlikely.

A good pilot wich can shoot at long ranges and keep the energy may still be dangerous but it takes harder work.

FritzGryphon
09-02-2005, 12:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">A 109's gentle stall and superb accelleration made it possible to even outturn a hurricane in slowest speed because the hurri bleeds its energy so fast and when it's gone it takes long time to regain it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not correct in terms of a protracted level turning fight, especially with 109E.

Hurricane sustained turn matches 109F, and is better than all other 109s. With a best-turn speed substantially lower than 109.

THe Hurricane can only win in a slow, level turn fight with a Bf-109. Not as handily as a Spit, of course, but will still win. The Messer pilot would be wise to do something else (unless you can get a shot in the first turn or so).

Taylortony
09-02-2005, 01:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Triggaaar:
1st a couple of caveats.
1) I do not know much about planes at all.
2) I am not wanting to critisize what is a great game (no game is perfect) or start a war.

Reading the manual of FB, it notes that the "Hurricane is generally inferior to all 1941 fighters, and inadequate against all 1942 and later fighters."

Was it only good in 1940?
I had been under the impression that the Hurricane faired well against fighters after 1940.

Could someone let me know the facts.

Thanks </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

there are some patches online that tweaked the flight model as well as giving you new planes, BUT as you are getting AEP and then merging with PF I would wait and Patch PF instead as AEP and PF will add all the patches that you would download for FB............ see your other post for locations to buy it.

Triggaaar
09-02-2005, 01:33 PM
Thanks guys.

Am I right in thinking the Hurricane was successful in the battle of Britain? If so, was it due to large numbers, or poor opposition (which I had assumed were early 109s).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Taylortony:
there are some patches online that tweaked the flight model as well as giving you new planes, BUT as you are getting AEP and then merging with PF I would wait and Patch PF instead as AEP and PF will add all the patches that you would download for FB............ see your other post for locations to buy it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, that has been my plan, thanks.

Grey_Mouser67
09-02-2005, 02:03 PM
Hurricanes were successful in BoB because they concentrated on bombers...the RAF was successful in BoB because of radar and because Hitler screwed up by getting caught up in bombing London.

The Luftwaffe had a bunch of the RAF airfields out of commission and the RAF was in a shambles in general until the night when a Luftwaffe bomber dropped a bomb accidently in London...Churchhill responded by bombing Berlin the next night and the fight was on!

Spitfires were sent in to try and tangle with fighters, while Hurricanes were expected to deal with bombers...of course, it didn't always work out that way but a Hurricane could out turn a 109 and medium and low altitude but that was about it...it was slower, climbed slower, poor rate of roll etc...It was a workhorse however and served valiantly since there were so few Spitfires at the time.

F19_Olli72
09-02-2005, 03:00 PM
It seems to me as some ppl are interpreting the old slogan "Hurricanes only went for bombers" as a truth written in stone. Im pretty sure they fought whatever they came across.

The best scoring squadron (303 sq) & pilots flew Hurricanes during BoB. In its first operational scramble August 31 1940, the 'A flight' of the squadron claimed four confirmed and two propable victories over Bf109s. All pilots returned safely.

Later in 15 september in a big fight they claimed six Bf 109s, one Bf 110 and two Do 17s.
Overall, the pilots of 303 Squadron claim 15 victories, at the cost of one pilot killed and two wounded, and two Hurricanes destroyed. Several aircraft are badly damaged.

Read more of 303, (and other Hurricane squadrons im sure) youll see they claimed their share of Bf109s as well.
http://ww2-aviation.net/polavhist/303.html

Bf109 was a better plane than the Hurricane true, but it doesnt mean it was immune.

F19_Ob
09-02-2005, 03:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FritzGryphon:

Not correct in terms of a protracted level turning fight, especially with 109E.

Hurricane sustained turn matches 109F, and is better than all other 109s. With a best-turn speed substantially lower than 109.

THe Hurricane can only win in a slow, level turn fight with a Bf-109. Not as handily as a Spit, of course, but will still win. The Messer pilot would be wise to do something else (unless you can get a shot in the first turn or so). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



Yes m8 I really agree about the "sustained" turn, but that wasn't exactly what I ment.
The best turn is better than the sustained turn and is when U pull hard and bleed your energy to lessen the circle. Few ww2 fighters could pull hard in slow speeds without risking a snap-stall and the 109 was one of the better planes suited to do this because of the gentle stall.
For a 109 that is a thing u can do and if u are willing to take the risk.
Marseille took such risk at times although he had his wingman above for cover, and he outurned spits, hurricanes and p40's on many occasions. He ofcours BnZ'ed aswell but many times outturned them.
However, most 109 pilots relyed on the speed and altitude advantage and BnZ because it was safer and still effective. Many of Marseilles collegues thought he took to many risks although some did try.

In my reading about the hurricane I've learnt that the hurricane was best in its medium speed range and bad in slowest and highest speeds.
When a hurricane has passed this limit and is in slow speed (not medium where the sustained turn is best) he will flip much easier than a 109 and it's here a 109 can lift his nose while accellerating and starts his climb and for a hurricane it takes a long time to accellerate from low speed and he really cant climb steeply at all without energy wich take long to gain even in level flight.

Mark Hanna ,for example, had never flown a plane that could accellerate and climb in slow speeds like the 109. Mark also flew hurricane and spit and p51 and compared.

--------------------------

It's ofcourse stupid to outturn a hurricane at slowest speed if not nescessary and that is more of an emergencything when one is out of options.

Usually diving or a spiralclimb is better.
I scissor my way out of trouble in such a slow situation because the hurricane cant roll well either in slow speeds while the 109 is ok even close to stall.

Well anyway, I never flew either of them for real ofcourse, and can only go on what I read in pilots accounts and descriptions in books and interviews and such wich in my mind supports the above.
To me the relation between these two planes are like this in the sim aswell.

well my point of view.

F19_Ob
09-02-2005, 03:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
Bf109 was a better plane than the Hurricane true, but it doesnt mean it was immune. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No plane was immune.
Bad luck and bounces happened all the time, and in a big furball there is small possibilities to keep track of all planes.

Kocur_
09-02-2005, 03:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The best scoring squadron (303 sq) & pilots flew Hurricanes during BoB. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As usual it all depends very much on pilots. In case of 303Sq. all of those guys graduates of one of the best fighter pilots schools, on their THIRD compaign against Luftwaffe and with highest possible morale.

Hurricane itself never was really a top fighter. It was produced and used widely because of its non-operational qualities: it was easy to produce, quite cheap and could be delivered in large quantity.

Badsight.
09-02-2005, 04:21 PM
we Dont have RAF spec Hurricanes in FB

also , it would be nice if a Late War spec Hurricane could be added to the planelist , more power greater speed

F19_Olli72
09-02-2005, 04:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
all of those guys graduates of one of the best fighter pilots schools, on their THIRD compaign against Luftwaffe and with highest possible morale. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just a minor correction; not all 303 squadron pilots were poles. There were three british pilots, the 4th non-pole was Josef Frantisek (Czechoslovakia).

Badsight, i wouldve loved a Mk IID or IV as well, those 40 mm Vickers and some rockets wouldve been fun to explode stuff with http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

p1ngu666
09-02-2005, 04:49 PM
hurri's where effective in BOB, infact it was teh most successful fighter in BOB, full stop.

shot down more/equal as all other defenses combined?

hurri was solid and easy to fly

often overshadowed by the spitfire. spitfire is more symbolic..

LStarosta
09-02-2005, 04:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
all of those guys graduates of one of the best fighter pilots schools, on their THIRD compaign against Luftwaffe and with highest possible morale. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just a minor correction; not all 303 squadron pilots were poles. There were three british pilots, the 4th non-pole was Josef Frantisek (Czechoslovakia).

Badsight, i wouldve loved a Mk IID or IV as well, those 40 mm Vickers and some rockets wouldve been fun to explode stuff with http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was officially a Polish squadron. I think that's what was meant.

LStarosta
09-02-2005, 04:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight.:
we Dont have RAF spec Hurricanes in FB

also , it would be nice if a Late War spec Hurricane could be added to the planelist , more power greater speed </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How bout we just add big boost to every plane in FB to have everyone satisfied...

LeadSpitter_
09-02-2005, 04:59 PM
A hurricanemkV with some vickers cannons would be sweet

Badsight.
09-02-2005, 05:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
How bout we just add big boost to every plane in FB to have everyone satisfied... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>all Hurricanes in FB are moddeled according to how they run in the VVS service

lower quality fuel led to them running 100 Hp less than the same models in the RAF service

i feel thats perfect for the FM Hurri , but how about the IIb &/or the IIc being given its Hp back

a late war spec model would be awesome as well

JG53Frankyboy
09-02-2005, 05:18 PM
at least the Mk.I should than modeled after finnish ore rumanian specifications http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

im more and more whishing maddox had staid pure on the easternfront (not that i like it much, it was just the beginning of the game).
its a very personal opinion, just to say that bevor the flame could start.........

and yes, it was most propably better for the money that they made this western and pacific stuff (both far from complete, and there fore lot of "proplems" ) - but it was not better for the game , thinking of all the manpower that could have been used the easternfront scenario much better.

Kocur_
09-02-2005, 06:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Just a minor correction; not all 303 squadron pilots were poles. There were three british pilots, the 4th non-pole was Josef Frantisek (Czechoslovakia). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course there were Mr. Kellet, Mr. Forbes - English gentelmen, Mr. Kent - Canadian gentelman, who were temporary British commanders of entire squadron and its two flights and there was Josef Frantisek who was fighter in pre-war Czech AF, and escaped to Poland in march 1939 and stayed in Polish AF until his death.

W/Cdr R. G. Kellet, W/Cdr R. S. Forbes and G/Cpt. J. Kent were decorated with Virtuti Militari, highest Polish military decoration. There was only one more Allied airman who was preseted with it (USAAF Col. Carl Truesdell)