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DayGlow
04-20-2005, 12:56 PM
Really takes away from the sim. It's well documented that the P-47 can break the sound barrier in a dive. The fact that the transonic regime is not modelled in the sim is a huge disapointment. Will this be fixed in 4.0 or BoB?

LLv34_Stafroty
04-20-2005, 01:02 PM
last thing i heard was they went to mars with mustangs.

BenQ-the-Hawk
04-20-2005, 01:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DayGlow:
Really takes away from the sim. It's well documented that the P-47 can break the sound barrier in a dive. The fact that the transonic regime is not modelled in the sim is a huge disapointment. Will this be fixed in 4.0 or BoB? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

rofl!!!!!!!!!



Well i think there was a kind of rocket which made mach 1 for the first time!!!! Don't now the name!

Maybe the P-47 could have dived this fast from 13000 metres but it woud have breaken becaues if you fly faster then mach 1 the airresistance gets twice as high as before immidiately i think. So it would explode or at least the wings would break off!!!!

Sorry for my bad Englich!

fherathras
04-20-2005, 02:00 PM
My Hero! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

MOhz
04-20-2005, 02:36 PM
OUR Hero! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

IIJG69_Kartofe
04-20-2005, 02:39 PM
Eeeeeeerrrhhh ...

Hummmmm ...

yes yes yes ...

... Spits made of wood...

arrhemm ... hum

.50 can kill tigers ...

...Yessssssssssssssssssss...

My medication ... Gniiiééééé ... My medicatioonnnnnn...

LEXX_Luthor
04-20-2005, 02:40 PM
A 1944 Lend Leace P~47 became first to break sound barrier, taking advantage of special low air density over Kuban. Strong VVS P~47 pilot (they say, a "bear") successfully fought hard stiff controls ("like Messer") upon breaching the speed of sound. Elite Guards unit stationed below became first in history to witness sonic boom.


The Copperhead Conspiracy

Abbuzze
04-20-2005, 02:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DayGlow:
Really takes away from the sim. It's well documented that the P-47 can break the sound barrier in a dive. The fact that the transonic regime is not modelled in the sim is a huge disapointment. Will this be fixed in 4.0 or BoB? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are close to reality but not 100%... try this "it´s well documented that the P47 break at the soundbarrier in a dive."

Just to say it loud and clear NO plane in WW2 can break the soundbarrier without beeing destroyed.

jeroen-79
04-20-2005, 05:21 PM
There is no barrier to break.

ST__Spyke
04-20-2005, 05:29 PM
id second that, most planes in WW2 were simply not aerodynamic enough to dreak the sound barrier without falling apart. The P-47 with the huge dragging air hole in the font, seems very unlikely to have broken the sound barrier. (remember at the time some people thought it was impossible to break the sound barrier as many think it is impossible to break the speed of light today, hence the name sound Barrier because it was a barrier no one could pass)

also air conditions have to be just right to see a shockwave, and its more commone to hear a boom altough it doesnt always happen

To get more technical, when a plane nears the speed of sound air compresses on the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer and pushes the air out and around the elevators making them next to useless. (no one figured this out until breaking the sound barrier was more common), as a result aircraft designers made it where the entire elevator rotated eleminating the static leading edge to push the air out of the way.

the speed of sound is roughly 340.29 m / s depending on air pressure, (higher up slower speed of sound), and more or less temperature.
roughly 761.2 mph ar ground level, but higher up the speed of sound is more in the 740 ish mph region.

new elevators (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-18-indy-cat.jpg)


X-1 (http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/AC/aircraft/Bell-X1/X-1-info/info.htm)

basically im not sying it never happened, and i wouldent doubt it for a second, but it is highly unlikely. also many speedometers didnt go that high, and at around 450-600 mph the pilot would expirience control lock of some sort and slow down as much as possible or risk hitting the ground with no way of bailing out at 400 mph+

just my 50 cents http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WWMaxGunz
04-20-2005, 07:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DayGlow:
Really takes away from the sim. It's well documented that the P-47 can break the sound barrier in a dive. The fact that the transonic regime is not modelled in the sim is a huge disapointment. Will this be fixed in 4.0 or BoB? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well documented?

Please, just where do you find this BS? A web page?

Fennec_P
04-20-2005, 08:10 PM
More correctly, it is well documented that planes in PF can break the sound barrier in a dive.

For example, the Me-262 and Me-163 can both go supersonic at high altitudes without breaking up. You could probably pull it off in a P-47 if you went high enough.

Not that this warrants the addition of sonic booms. On the contrary, they should fix the FM so you can't do this anymore!

TAGERT.
04-21-2005, 12:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DayGlow:
Really takes away from the sim. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>How so?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DayGlow:
It's well documented that the P-47 can break the sound barrier in a dive. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well Documented? Well than it should be a simple mater to present the source and a quote from said source of one of these documents.. Yet you did not? Why is that? My guess, is because in doing so would show just how UN-DOCUMENTED it is, let alone WELL DOCUMENTED.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DayGlow:
The fact that the transonic regime is not modelled in the sim is a huge disapointment. Will this be fixed in 4.0 or BoB? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No need, in light of the fact that no plane in this game came close to breaking the sound barrier.

DayGlow
04-21-2005, 12:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TAGERT.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DayGlow:
Really takes away from the sim. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>How so? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Breaks from reality. Reminds you it is a game.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DayGlow:
It's well documented that the P-47 can break the sound barrier in a dive. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well Documented? Well than it should be a simple mater to present the source and a quote from said source of one of these documents.. Yet you did not? Why is that? My guess, is because in doing so would show just how UN-DOCUMENTED it is, let alone WELL DOCUMENTED. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why sure, I'll upload the TV programs from TLC, Discovery, History Channel, etc to my ftp server for your view pleasure. I've read it in a few books as well. Maybe try a library for your own research?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DayGlow:
The fact that the transonic regime is not modelled in the sim is a huge disapointment. Will this be fixed in 4.0 or BoB? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No need, in light of the fact that no plane in this game came close to breaking the sound barrier. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

please don't be a hater just because you are wrong.

TAGERT.
04-21-2005, 12:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DayGlow:
Breaks from reality. Reminds you it is a game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ah, my bad.. I thought you were talking about reality when you said the P47 could break the sound barrier.. As in a real P47.. I didnt realise you were talking about some game.. I didnt realise The SIMS had a P47 modled it it?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DayGlow:
Why sure, I'll upload the TV programs from TLC, Discovery, History Channel, etc to my ftp server for your view pleasure. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Dont forget the Disney Ch.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DayGlow:
I've read it in a few books as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And what shade of green did you use to color in the trees in that book?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DayGlow:
Maybe try a library for your own research? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Did, thus my inital reply to you.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DayGlow:
please don't be a hater just because you are wrong. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not hate, just pitty.

DayGlow
04-21-2005, 12:42 AM
http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avp47.html
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p47_3.html

again, what is with all the hate just because you are wrong? That insecure?

TAGERT.
04-21-2005, 12:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DayGlow:
http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avp47.html
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p47_3.html

again, what is with all the hate just because you are wrong? That insecure? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So what part of "Not hate, just pitty" did you not understand? Oh well, try these on for size

http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Fisher.html
http://www.aoe.vt.edu/~mason/Mason_f/ConfigAeroTransonics.pdf

PS did you actually READ that link you provided? Where it said in the first

"Thunderbolt pilots claimed it could even break the sound barrier, but it appears that the airspeed indicator simply went crazy at high speeds."

And than in the second

"On November 13, 1942, Lts. Harold Comstock and Roger Dyar managed to reach indicated airspeeds of 725 mph during high-speed dives in their P-47Cs. This was beyond the speed of sound, which, if accurate, would have made them the first pilots to break the sound barrier. However, it is likely that the airspeed readings were wildly inaccurate, since the terminal velocity of the P-47 is about 600 mph, and that the true speeds reached were probably in the 500 mph range."

Is that what you ment by well documented?

DayGlow
04-21-2005, 12:51 AM
so you believe Columbus discovered America as well?

I say hate because you are so insulting. Can't back up an arguement with facts so you instead throw the insults in. Nice.

TAGERT.
04-21-2005, 01:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DayGlow:
so you believe Columbus discovered America as well? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Are you talking about real life now.. Or another addition to a game? I didnt realise The SIMS was going back that far?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DayGlow:
I say hate because you are so insulting. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I can not be held responsable for you feeling insulted when provin wrong.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DayGlow:
Can't back up an arguement with facts so you instead throw the insults in. Nice. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Just because you can not understand the links I provided does not mean I didnt back up what I said.

BBB_Hyperion
04-21-2005, 05:34 AM
I must admit sometimes i like tagert .)

Tagert when you have time can you check this chart.

http://www.butcherbirds.de/hypesstorage/DiveChart.JPG


I have the feeling of a calculation error on it .)

Most likely the mph gauge error.

fherathras
04-21-2005, 07:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DayGlow:
so you believe Columbus discovered America as well?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



No, the vikings did http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

whitetornado_1
04-21-2005, 07:50 AM
I do think the ME-262 came close to
supersonic speed Mach .85 although
for the pilot it would seem like he would be
breaking the sound barrier because of the
compressibilty and the Transonic effect.
The plane would litterally want to shake
itself apart.In most cases over Mach .7
for a prop plane the controls would not
respond and more often than not be fatal.
Lord knows some poor buggers tried and died.

TAGERT.
04-21-2005, 08:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
I must admit sometimes i like tagert .) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>LOL! *THEY* love me when Im doggin allied planes and *THEY* hate me when Im doggin axis planes!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
Tagert when you have time can you check this chart.

http://www.butcherbirds.de/hypesstorage/DiveChart.JPG


I have the feeling of a calculation error on it .)

Most likely the mph gauge error. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That is the graph from Herbert O. Fisher's dive tests in the P47, from the link I posted, what aspect of it do you find is in error? Keeping in mind this was not a war time confgured P47.

TAGERT.
04-21-2005, 08:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by whitetornado_1:
I do think the ME-262 came close to
supersonic speed Mach .85 although
for the pilot it would seem like he would be
breaking the sound barrier because of the
compressibilty and the Transonic effect.
The plane would litterally want to shake
itself apart.In most cases over Mach .7
for a prop plane the controls would not
respond and more often than not be fatal.
Lord knows some poor buggers tried and died. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But close only counts in horse shoes! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The 262 did experance some things that alot of other planes experanced when nearing the sound barrier.. Like the loss of controls suddenly being regained.. But that just ment the air flow in and around the control surfaces went beyond.. Not the whole aircarft.. Alot of people misstakenly think that regaining of controls is the indicator that the whole plane broke the sound barrier.. Because Chuck Yeager menthoned it.. It is not, it is just one of the many things experanced.

Kasdeya
04-21-2005, 09:09 AM
Hella bait DG. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

great reel work too. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BBB_Hyperion
04-21-2005, 09:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TAGERT.:
LOL! *THEY* love me when Im doggin allied planes and *THEY* hate me when Im doggin axis planes!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Note the word sometimes .

The TAS calculation for the alt given was taken from which airdensity distribution conditions that would clear things up?

Can take a look later at this mentioned site later maybe test conditions explained there.
Found this picture elsewhere.

han freak solo
04-21-2005, 11:14 AM
In the game, who would hear a sonic boom anyway?

On the runway sitting in your plane of choice, maybe? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Grue_
04-21-2005, 11:18 AM
DayGlow's freezer is going to be full http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

WTE_Ibis
04-22-2005, 02:26 AM
He got old snappy again.He,he,he http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

WTE_Ibis
04-22-2005, 02:39 AM
You will have to throw him back Dayglow m8 because
this is a "catch and release area"
Besides you'll want some more fun later. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Airmail109
04-22-2005, 07:27 AM
A spitfire MXIV hit Mach 0.92! the highest figure ever recorded by a propellor driven aircraft, equating to 606 mph at 45000ft!!!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

The190Flyer
04-22-2005, 07:44 AM
Well documented??? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif I would like to see some sources from that site http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif I highly doubt that a prop fighter can break the sound barrier without breaking apart like it was mentioned in previous posts. There would be way to much resistance anyway. Therefore "no sonic booms" when you eclipse 760mph in a P-47 in the game send a track!

BBB_Hyperion
04-22-2005, 08:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aimail101:
A spitfire MXIV hit Mach 0.92! the highest figure ever recorded by a propellor driven aircraft, equating to 606 mph at 45000ft!!!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most likely a gauge error too .)

skabbe
04-22-2005, 08:55 AM
ones again, typhoon brake the sound barrier first. but not the plane, the airflow... why would p47 brake the barrier, the proppeller is just an resistance neer soundspeed

BBB_Hyperion
04-22-2005, 09:23 AM
airflow doesnt count.

skabbe
04-22-2005, 09:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
airflow doesnt count. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i know

darkhorizon11
04-22-2005, 11:30 AM
I'm just going to give one of these! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

And assume that you guys are joking around about any world war two aircraft being capable of breaking the sound barrier in a dive!

BBB_Hyperion
04-22-2005, 12:31 PM
So true .)

ddsflyer
04-22-2005, 12:46 PM
How could any prop plane go supersonic? That would mean that the prop blades would have to go supersonic as well and that has never happened, ever. The shock wave interference would tear the blades off the hub. Ask any prop maunfacturer, larger props turn slower in order to avoid the transonic region.

piloteer81
04-22-2005, 02:45 PM
I think it's an interesting question when you consider all those pilots who lost their lives no doubt, after being shot down, or even experiencing a technical error with the plane in WW2, that some must have fallen vertically for many thousands of feet and would most probably have broken the sound barrier. Extreme drag at speeds over 500mph or not, something weighing several tonnes that is streamlined enough and with a 1500HP engine helping it along is going to have a terminal velocity of at least 700mph if not more.

yes the plane would probably be minus its control surfaces at this point but, in this light, Chuck Yeager is merely the first globally accepted man to break the sound barrier and live to tell the tale.

Dew-Claw
04-22-2005, 02:57 PM
This question was asked over at the FSM forums.
A couple of Aircraft mechanics stepped up with information they had on attempts to exede the sound barrier in prop driven aircraft.
You can read the thread here:

http://www.finescale.com/fsm/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=40173

92SqnGCJimbo
04-22-2005, 03:23 PM
ddsflyer prop blades can go supersonic.. there is a boeing steerman (the utterly butterley one) that flies round the uk circuit that has the engine from a at-6 on the front and the tips of that prop go supersonic.. rather a unique sound.. a bit like lots of airguns going off in tune with a at-6 backing note..

ddsflyer
04-22-2005, 03:40 PM
They do NOT go supersonic, they go transonic. Do the math, takeoff RPM vs. prop diameter = velocity. You will see that it is well below supersonic. What you are hearing is popular myth. That particular rasping sound is not supersonic prop blades but rather transonic, there is a big difference. Same reason helicopters cannot exceed a certain airspeed relative to rotor diameter, the advancing blade gets transonic and loses lift due to the shockwave. A propeller with the blade in the grip of a supersonic shockwave even if it could hold together would not be creating lift (thrust). Simple physics.

darkhorizon11
04-22-2005, 04:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ddsflyer:
They do NOT go supersonic, they go transonic. Do the math, takeoff RPM vs. prop diameter = velocity. You will see that it is well below supersonic. What you are hearing is popular myth. That particular rasping sound is not supersonic prop blades but rather transonic, there is a big difference. Same reason helicopters cannot exceed a certain airspeed relative to rotor diameter, the advancing blade gets transonic and loses lift due to the shockwave. A propeller with the blade in the grip of a supersonic shockwave even if it could hold together would not be creating lift (thrust). Simple physics. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your right. The other key factor that was still under development during the war was the wings. Supersonic aircraft have thin knife edge withs with almost no camber. Like I said this feature was pioneered during the war but was never really successfully implimented or understood(the B-24 did use a sleeker thinner airfoil but by no means what supersonic jets have) until the early 50s. Not only does a thick wing create more drag, but it is practically uncontrollable in the trans/supersonic regime.

Sorry I know I said I would just give one of these http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif but since I'm taking advanced aerodynamics course right now I had to intervene! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Cippacometa
04-23-2005, 08:12 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DayGlow:
Really takes away from the sim. It's well documented that the P-47 can break the sound barrier in a dive. The fact that the transonic regime is not modelled in the sim is a huge disapointment. Will this be fixed in 4.0 or BoB? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It MUST be a joke! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Aaron_GT
04-23-2005, 01:03 PM
"the utterly butterley one"

When the utterly butterly flyers are doing the display who is looking at or listening to the planes!!!

Aaron_GT
04-23-2005, 01:05 PM
"Like I said this feature was pioneered during the war but was never really successfully implimented or understood(the B-24 did use a sleeker thinner airfoil but by no means what supersonic jets have) until the early 50s."

It was beginning to be understood in the 1940s, it seems. Certainly the M.52 had a very thin wing section, as well as them being short and stubby.