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Mattiflaps
06-20-2004, 08:20 PM
Hi chaps, I asked this question in another thread '109-K4 a noob plane' but it got locked down by crazy ivan. Admittedly the thread was getting out of hand with people replying without fully reading previous posts.
Leaving all talk about 'noob' planes aside, I would like to see the me262 on more maps. Major_death, you were saying the 262 is left out because it falls into the godlike plane category. I tend to think the same could be said about the La7. I think you are right in saying putting the 262 on maps would mean every axis pilot would be flying it. But there is a way to limit the number of planes at a given base to 2 by setting the base radius to minimum in FMB. Have 2 me262 bases and you can limit its numbers to 4. There is a greatergreen map that has done something similar with Komets.
It's a pity such an interesting plane is almost completely absent from online play.
Cheers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Mattiflaps
06-20-2004, 08:20 PM
Hi chaps, I asked this question in another thread '109-K4 a noob plane' but it got locked down by crazy ivan. Admittedly the thread was getting out of hand with people replying without fully reading previous posts.
Leaving all talk about 'noob' planes aside, I would like to see the me262 on more maps. Major_death, you were saying the 262 is left out because it falls into the godlike plane category. I tend to think the same could be said about the La7. I think you are right in saying putting the 262 on maps would mean every axis pilot would be flying it. But there is a way to limit the number of planes at a given base to 2 by setting the base radius to minimum in FMB. Have 2 me262 bases and you can limit its numbers to 4. There is a greatergreen map that has done something similar with Komets.
It's a pity such an interesting plane is almost completely absent from online play.
Cheers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Weather_Man
06-20-2004, 08:27 PM
Keep in mind, many people don't like flying props against jets. It's no fun. Jets vs. jets is a blast. Jets vs. Jugs is a whip.

WTE_Galway
06-20-2004, 08:27 PM
the problem with 262 online is its only fun if other people are prepared to fly the slower props to act as targets for you to get your jollies popping them off in zoom and boom passes with soem minimal chance of revenge if they can bounce or vulch you every half hour or so

most people arent prepared to spend a night online getting shot down just for other peoples enjoyment

Mattiflaps
06-20-2004, 08:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
the problem with 262 online is its only fun if other people are prepared to fly the slower props to act as targets for you to get your jollies popping them off in zoom and boom passes with soem minimal chance of revenge if they can bounce or vulch you every half hour or so

most people arent prepared to spend a night online getting shot down just for other peoples enjoyment<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Replace '262' with 'La7' and your post still rings true http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
And yes, jets vs. jets is a blast! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

VW-IceFire
06-20-2004, 09:35 PM
A couple of things need to happen:

1) Vulching is allowed...Allied aircraft would wait near jet bases and attack them on takeoff or before they got off the ground to neutralized the advantage.

2) Limited numbers...that seems to be somewhat solvable if what you say is true.

3) Real bases with real objects and good defenses....so vulching isn't an easy job and best done as a team. Furthermore, it shouldn't be easy to hang over a base. A group of 6 heavy AAA and 3-4 light AAA usually takes down all comers (stay away from lag inducing whirblewinds). And if people can't take the heavy AAA on their systems then they shouldn't fly there either...but it does balance the jets out.

I want to see the Me 262 flying around...and yes its almost godlike in its advantage but on the other hand the disadvantages are neutralized by the requirements imposed on players. A Me262 is easy prey for a IL-2 strike group.

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Mitlov47
06-21-2004, 12:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mattiflaps:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
the problem with 262 online is its only fun if other people are prepared to fly the slower props to act as targets for you to get your jollies popping them off in zoom and boom passes with soem minimal chance of revenge if they can bounce or vulch you every half hour or so

most people arent prepared to spend a night online getting shot down just for other peoples enjoyment<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Replace '262' with 'La7' and your post still rings true http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You could say the same thing about the Ki-84 or the BF-109Z, I suppose. But most people find that there is much less difference between various prop planes--including the uber ones--than between a prop and a jet.

By the way, the historically realistic approach would be to let Me-262s fly, but only allow them one pass before they have to head back to base because of lack of fuel. And they can't get more fuel when they return to base, either http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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Mattiflaps
06-21-2004, 12:05 AM
Agreed Icefire. I think the 262 can work in missions as long as the mission is designed to give both sides a chance. For example, a jabo escort type scenerio. The jabo's would have to work at low altitude while dive bombing targets. Then the 262's would have to work at reasonbly low altitude in order to cover them. Another possibility is to use the bomber variant of the 262, the me262a2.
Basically, if people are so intent on having la7's to fly, I'm trying to think of ways for mission builders to counter it's uberlike performance. That, and as I said before, 262's are overly lacking from 1945 missions. While it's true it wan't around in huge numbers, it did have a significant role in the '45 air war. Going by online dogfighting, you could be excused for thinking it didn't even exist.

WTE_Galway
06-21-2004, 12:40 AM
well .. still seems to me that most people wanting the 262 in a general dogfight server imagine THEMSELVES as the ones strapped in the 262 and some other poor sucker the one pottering along at low level in an IL2 or hurricane

WOLFMondo
06-21-2004, 12:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weather_Man:
Keep in mind, many people don't like flying props against jets. It's no fun. Jets vs. jets is a blast. Jets vs. Jugs is a whip.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I love flying in a jug vs jets! Theres nothing more satisfying than bouncing a jet when its zooming back up after an attack and the pilot thinks he's in relative safety.

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T_O_A_D
06-21-2004, 01:17 AM
It is possible to restict down to two per base. Too bad You can't get it down to 1 plane. I have asked for this Oleg replied to the thread but failed to respond on that one part of it.

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ImpStarDuece
06-21-2004, 01:25 AM
I don't know about the rest of you but for me WW2 flights sims are first and foremost about prop driven birds.

Yes jets are fun and its nice to see them in the late war period. Hell, its even fun to fly them. But nothing compares to 13 feet of propeller whirling round in an arc about 4 feet from your nose.

For me Il2 will always be a prop sim. I don't think the bias against the 262 is necessarliy a 'planezilla' like reasoning but more like a 'clash of props' reasoning.

Afterall, prop afficonados, just like flight sim enthusiasts, are just a bit of a breed apart.

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06-21-2004, 03:04 AM
the problem is we cant limit the ammount of a certain plane on individual runways. or edit/create spawn points for runways.

Playing on the server Birds of Prey which has the me262, the plane most flown by the axis team is the me262. So until ubi does something that allows the host to limit the ammount of aircraft that can be flown we wont see the me262 online much

SeaFireLIV
06-21-2004, 03:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
well .. still seems to me that most people wanting the 262 in a general dogfight server imagine THEMSELVES as the ones strapped in the 262 and some other poor sucker the one pottering along at low level in an IL2 or hurricane<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

EXACTLY my thoughts.
People asking why no 262 are really just saying that they want to `own` everyone else who use prop planes. Of course, even those who try to stay in prop planes will switch to Jets after beeing blown to bits for the umpteenth time in a row by the very guy who asked for Me262!

The question they REALLY want to ask (IMHO) is: "Why aren`t there servers where I can fly the ME262 and everyone else fly props?"

Unless, these jets can be limited (to 2 or less), it`s simply not feasible.

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WOLFMondo
06-21-2004, 04:26 AM
It would be nice though if there was a way of having slots or somthing like in co-op. But I think that might lead to a minority of people waiting for the best planes (or there preference) to crash or be killed so they idle in the selection screen until that point.

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JG77_Tintin
06-21-2004, 05:04 AM
Personally think they should be included, as they were historically there at the time. However, they should only be available when they entered combat service, ie. July 44 for the A1, maybe a little earlier for the A2. So put them in the late 1944 and 1945 plane sets. However you could try limiting them to only airports with concrete runways to reflect the special needs for the early jets. Also allow vulching, as they are more vulnerable at these times. Maybe this will limit their numbers and attract droves of Mustang and Thunderbolt drivers to stake out those concrete airfields. The settings should be full real, no icons at all. As mentioned earlier, the jets do have disadvantages at take off and landing, as well as a smoke trail that can be easily spotted. Just need to adapt, as the allied pilots did and maximise your strengths against it's weaknesses. Maybe it is the "uber plane", but without the same can be said of the Ki, Fw190D, Bf109K, Ta152 and LA7, some of which were entering service at the same time or even latter than the 262. After all 1,430 of them were produced and even allowing for those not yet delivered, there was a good sight more of them than the Ta152's or Bf109Z's that ever saw the light of day. Hope this helps in some way

NorrisMcWhirter
06-21-2004, 06:14 AM
Hi,

I don't know why it isn't in more sets, either. As already said, these aircraft flew and had to be dealt with. And, to top it all, there never seems to be any complaint about the 262 FM so there must be another underlying reason for it being left out (and we all know what it is).

In terms of being bnz'd with little recourse, the same can be said of any aircraft suited to the activity; any LW, P51, P47, P38. However, with the 262, the engines are extremely vunerable in flight and the entire aircraft is a sitting duck on landing and take off.

Once again, it's ironic how the planes that are 'noob' or banned never originate from the Western allies. Very ironic, indeed.

Cheers,
Norris

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SeaFireLIV
06-21-2004, 06:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:

In terms of being bnz'd with little recourse, the same can be said of any aircraft suited to the activity; any LW, P51, P47, P38. However, with the 262, the engines are extremely vunerable in flight and the entire aircraft is a sitting duck on landing and take off.

Once again, it's ironic how the planes that are 'noob' or banned never originate from the Western allies. Very ironic, indeed.

Cheers,
Norris

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I`m sorry, NorrisMcWhirter, but it just isn`t that clear cut. Have you flown on a server or 2 with the Me262 or similar jets?

I have and I`m one of those folks who`s determined not to fly a jet.

In the early days when pilots weren`t sure what they doing it wasn`t so bad, but once these guys got the idea of the jet and how to use them they were unstoppable. They cannot be touched. Technically, I think a lot of pilots are better than the Me262 flyers were in reality, since they are prepared for the speed concept. Even just one SKILLED guy against a load of props can slay away with impunity. consequently everyone goes Jets and the sim fails.

With all other prop planes can be caught or countered by other props. This includes the LA`s, P51s, TA152 etc...

Yes, the Me262 flew and had to be dealt with, but they were never in equal numbers to the Allied aircraft. As it is now, if this had been a WWII situation the Germans WOULD have won the air war over Europe, no doubt about it.

There needs to be a workable way around this. Limit the number of Me262, allow vulching and have heavy AAA cover might just work... oh and DEFINITELY keep it to full real, at least Cockpit on, that would help.

SeaFireLIV...

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Mattiflaps
06-21-2004, 06:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
well .. still seems to me that most people wanting the 262 in a general dogfight server imagine THEMSELVES as the ones strapped in the 262 and some other poor sucker the one pottering along at low level in an IL2 or hurricane<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think some of you are missing my point, and I apologise if I haven't made myself clear. I'm talking about me262 in late war missions ie.late 44 and 45 planesets. Specifically as a matchup for the La7 on the eastern front. How many times have any of you actually been in dogfights involving La7's vs Me262's (especially on maps involving ground target goals)? It is a closer matchup than some of you might think. When both planes are flown properly, these dogfights go on for quite awhile. An earlier war parallel would be say, a Spitfire MkV vs.FW190A5. When both of these planes are flown properly, often extended dogfights result involving the Fw190 using its superior dive/climb rate to repeatedly bounce the Spit, while the Spit uses its superior turn rate to outmaneuver the 190 and eventually bleed its energy. No-one would complain about such a matchup, as each plane has its own strengths and weaknesses. But for some reason, as soon as someone mentions the 262, everyone goes 'oh no, u can't do that - its a jet'.
Forgotten Battles is primarily a prop sim, and I enjoy props as much as anyone. I'm particularly fond of the early war battles up to 43. But when it comes to the La7, I don't like flying it as I honestly believe it is superior to all the axis prop planes on the eastern front, and I don't like fighting it for the same reason. In limited numbers, i think the 262 would help even things up.

OldMan____
06-21-2004, 06:47 AM
IN fact I fear La7 more than a 262 (maily because I fly axis :P) , but seriously.. even when I fly allied planes in FULL REAL servers the 262 is not as relentless as is the Ki 84 or LA 7, not even CLOSE!!! Please..someone state soma disadvanateg teh Ki84 has over other plane.. or the LA7... (in case of LA 7 you can think on relative fragility.. but even the LA 7 is toughert han Me262)

Even flying Axis I wont fly 262 (dont like it) but I think anyonethat wants it should be able to.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

Tully__
06-21-2004, 06:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
Once again, it's ironic how the planes that are 'noob' or banned never originate from the Western allies. Very ironic, indeed.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It doesn't happen as much as it used to, but for a long time it was almost impossible to find a server that allowed the La5FN (before the La7 was added). For a while certain Yak's were scarce too. Particularly in the early Sturmovik days it was very common to find coop servers with '43 Luftwaffe aircraft v. LaGG3's, now that was a struggle for the red team http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. The FM on the IL2 Sturmovik LaGG's was all engine overheat and no climb....

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WOLFMondo
06-21-2004, 07:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I`m sorry, NorrisMcWhirter, but it just isn`t that clear cut. Have you flown on a server or 2 with the Me262 or similar jets?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Theres a map on UKDedicated which is essentially 1946 planes with all the jets in it. Most of the guys were flying the Ta152, K4 or D9 with a few in the Go229 and 262's on the axis team and on the allied team everyones in P51's, P47's and P63's. While I agree a good jet pilot will do well, with a bit of organisation and team work 2 or 3 prop fighters can take down a jet.

I think that many who fly jets get a false sense of security and forget a diving P47, P63 or P51 will catch up and for a while can stay with a jet.

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NorrisMcWhirter
06-21-2004, 10:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:

In terms of being bnz'd with little recourse, the same can be said of any aircraft suited to the activity; any LW, P51, P47, P38. However, with the 262, the engines are extremely vunerable in flight and the entire aircraft is a sitting duck on landing and take off.

Once again, it's ironic how the planes that are 'noob' or banned never originate from the Western allies. Very ironic, indeed.

Cheers,
Norris

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I`m sorry, NorrisMcWhirter, but it just isn`t that clear cut. Have you flown on a server or 2 with the Me262 or similar jets?

I have and I`m one of those folks who`s determined not to fly a jet.

In the early days when pilots weren`t sure what they doing it wasn`t so bad, but once these guys got the idea of the jet and how to use them they were unstoppable. They cannot be touched. Technically, I think a lot of pilots are better than the Me262 flyers were in reality, since they are prepared for the speed concept. Even just one SKILLED guy against a load of props can slay away with impunity. consequently everyone goes Jets and the sim fails.

With all other prop planes can be caught or countered by other props. This includes the LA`s, P51s, TA152 etc...

Yes, the Me262 flew and had to be dealt with, but they were never in equal numbers to the Allied aircraft. As it is now, if this had been a WWII situation the Germans WOULD have won the air war over Europe, no doubt about it.

There needs to be a workable way around this. Limit the number of Me262, allow vulching and have heavy AAA cover might just work... oh and DEFINITELY keep it to full real, at least Cockpit on, that would help.

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P38 sucks? .... I don`t think so!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi,

Fair point - however, as a ratio of 262s to allied aircraft, I don't fancy flying [arbitary figure] 0.043232 [/arbitary figure] of an Me262 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Just to play devil's advocate; if this applies to the Me262, why not apply it to all aircraft in a server so that historical allocations/ratios apply? Yep - that's not going to happen.

I have flown in servers where there are more than two Me262s and the 262 pilot can attack at will but he is by no means invincible. As Wolfmondo points out, the UK-D server has a map with a lot of LW jets on it (and the YP-80) and the majority of people team fly against the 262s with some degree of success. In that server, not everyone flies Me262s so it's quite obvious that it isn't the uber plane it's made out to be. In fact, in that server, I find it much easier to get kills with the Ta152 than the Me262.

In response to Tully, I pointed out that no *Western* allied plane seem to be considered 'uber' enough to be left out. The La5FN is a tricky bird to combat, especially with those lasers, but I wouldn't like to see it banned.

Cheers,
Norris

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Red_Storm
06-21-2004, 10:32 AM
P-51 is faster than the D9 at all altitudes, it turns much better, it climbs better and it has much more firepower. Sound fishy?

The La-7 is faster than the D9, it turns much better, it has more firepower and it climbs better.

The Yak-3 is slower than the D9, but it turns better and has more firepower.

Both the P-47 and P-38 outclimb the D9 above 4k, they both turn better and both have more firepower. They're about just as fast as the D9, with the D-9 having an advantage down low.

This is how it's been since IL-2 was released and the Luftwaffe pilots have managed to deal with it, but when the Me-262 was introduced the Allied planes actually had a worthy oponent, which ofcourse was not tolerated so it has been banned. Same goes for the Ki-84, Bf-109Z (understandable), Go-229 etc. All planes that have some advantage over Allied planes and all mostly banned.

Now, for the American planes Oleg has stated on several occassions that he used the best findable data to model them, which is quite obvious on some planes (P-39 hardly stalling, P-51 outturning a Bf-109G-14/G-10/K-4, .50 doing devestating damage), but a little less noticeable on others, like the, well, P-47, which is quite on par with the FW-190A-8. It turns a tad better, has more firepower, but its rollrate it worse and it's slower and climbs worse below 4k. The Russian planes are all more or less down to realistic standards, after having been overmodelled for most of IL-2's existence.

For Luftwaffe pilots every Allied fighter has always been an Me-262. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
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NorrisMcWhirter
06-21-2004, 10:40 AM
^ Hear, hear.

...but the bad guys have to be easy to shoot down. 50 years of cinema says so....

Cheers,
Norris

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Baltar
06-21-2004, 10:50 AM
Sorry but that is ridiculous. The American planes have always seemed not quite so competitive with the German or red aircraft. The La-7 and Yak-3 are probably the most complained about aircraft in the game.

IV-JG51_L.Z
06-21-2004, 10:53 AM
It's my fault. I flew the Schwalbe in the greatergreen Test Center map, slaughtered the allies and now the Me-262 is branded as "godlike" and "unstoppable".
http://greatergreen.com/il2/stats/sortiedetails.php?id=1086402974&playerid=312

I just hope nobody checks my stats in the Fw-190 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Red_Storm
06-21-2004, 10:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Baltar:
Sorry but that is ridiculous. The American planes have always seemed not quite so competitive with the German or red aircraft. The La-7 and Yak-3 are probably the most complained about aircraft in the game.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And still the P-51 outturns Bf-109's downlow (which it shouldn't, not at any altitude), outruns Dora's on the deck (which it definitely shouldn't) and climb with Doras up to 3k (DEFINITELY shouldn't do that), after which it outclimbs them. Believe me, I've tested this with my squad leader. I've tested it extensively.

And besides, Oleg has actually said he overmodelled the American planes, so there's actually no question about that anyway.
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NorrisMcWhirter
06-21-2004, 11:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And besides, Oleg has actually said he _overmodelled_ the American planes, so there's actually no question about that anyway.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi,

How very interesting. When did he say that?

Also, nice stats, IV-JG51_L.Z; no wonder they were upset shooting down all those YP80s. You obviously didn't shoot them in the wings because they are *oddly* strong in that respect.

Cheers,
Norris

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Red_Storm
06-21-2004, 11:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And besides, Oleg has actually said he _overmodelled_ the American planes, so there's actually no question about that anyway.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi,

How very interesting. When did he say that?

Also, nice stats, IV-JG51_L.Z; no wonder they were upset shooting down all those YP80s. You obviously didn't shoot them in the wings because they are *oddly* strong in that respect.

Cheers,
Norris

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<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

About six months ago it must be now. I was actually quite pissed, as I myself (and a lot of others who were quite pissed off too, some were quite happy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) prefer realism over what a lot of people want, but hey, it's still all about the money I guess. Oh well. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

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BennyMoore
06-21-2004, 01:51 PM
First of all, Oleg is a highly biased Russian. The Russian planes were also obviously modelled "using the best findable data." Also, note that "using the best findable data" is not quite the same as overmodelling something, although it's almost certain to happen. However, in the case of the P-38, at least, the "best findable data" is that of the developer of the aircraft, Lockheed Martin. Therefore the P-38 is not overmodelled. I'll admit that my second favorite plane, the P-40 E, is overmodelled in performance, but it's undermodelled for durability, so it kind of works out. I wish Oleg would get it correct, though.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:
And still the P-51 outturns Bf-109's downlow<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh, no... I eat P-51s for lunch in my BF-109 G-2 down low.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:
P-51 is faster than the D9 at all altitudes, it turns much better, it climbs better and it has much more firepower.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll admit (gasp!) that the P-51 is almost certainly overmodelled. However, you can't be serious about the firepower. No fighter in the game has better firepower than the FW-190. In fact, since the FW-190 is almost certainly seriously undermodelled, the only way to kill an enemy fighter is to make repeated head on passes. I've never been killed in a one on one with an FW-190 except for when I'm stupid enough to head on him. I can't believe that the dangerous FW-190 I've read about was really as much of a boat as it is in game. However, that's what I said about the P-38, and I've since then been able to use it effectively. So I may very well be wrong about the FW-190 being undermodelled.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:
The Russian planes are all more or less down to realistic standards<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a good one! No, the Yak is unbeatable, the La-7 is unbeatable, and the Mig-3 U borders dangerously near being so. I suppose if you zoom and boom a Yak, you might win, but you'd have to have a huge altitude advantage seeing as how they do not require air to be moving over their control surfaces to point their nose at you when you zoom climb.

The only good thing about the La-7 and, to a lesser extent the Yak, is that almost without exception they are piloted by green pilots, so they can be beat. But if you find the rare good pilot in a La-7 or Yak, you cannot beat him unless you are in another superplane (the only American plane I can think of that can is the P-51).

SeaFireLIV
06-21-2004, 05:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BennyMoore:
First of all, Oleg is a highly biased Russian. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As opposed to you not being a highly biased American?

I`m sorry, but you don`t seem to see just how biased your comments tend to be in favour of America and basically against everything else! You really need to work a little bit more on your own perceived notions. Less of the `America`s hard done by the rest of the world conspiracy stuff` which all your posts suggest.

IMHO, Oleg has listened and followed advice to the point that he`s the least bias of just about every body in the WWII flight sim market. I`m convinced if this were an American made Sim it would be more biased to US planes having better performances than Russian or LW or even British, whether historically accurate or not.

But then you`d probably say the sim was then perfect!

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/origianlP38a.jpg
P38 sucks? .... I don`t think so!

Mattiflaps
06-21-2004, 06:21 PM
Back in the golden years of FB (somewhere around ver 1.21), things were more balanced IMHO. Somewhere along the line, late war battles have gone in favour of the allies. That last patch that had 15 new flyable allied planes compared to 2 new axis planes had a lot to do with it. I don't know why the Yak3P was introduced when the standard 44 yak3 is so good anyway. The late bf109's have had their elevators crippled at over 450km/hr, rendering them much more ineffective at b'n'z'ing. The supermarine spit seems to be able to outclimb everything. True, the Dora had its guns improved, but so did the P51, along with it's FM.
I don't know whether these changes have made all the planes more true to their real-life models. Whether they do or not is, in my opinion, of secondary importance to the question of game balance. We all know the allies won the war. We are not trying to recreate history. We are trying to have fun flying planes that represent the basic characteristics of their real-life counterparts.
Flight models are out of our control. Therefore it is up to server admins/mission builders to create enviroments that are balanced for everyone. Which brings me back to what started up this thread. Introducing the 262 in late 44,45 maps may be just what this sim needs.
As things stand now, if I'm on a server and a map comes up containing La7's vs. axis props, I leave.

06-21-2004, 10:19 PM
i know that people are putting the 43 G6 against the Mk9 Spitfire

what a joke that is

as for the 262 dominating everything ....... whatever

its SOLE advantage is top speed

it HAS to stay fast or its dead in a dogfight SeaFireLIV

someone mentioned that the LA-7 is the most complained plane ..... well its the biggest UFO but the allied flyers love it that way

when the KI-84 came out it acutally was true to the object viewer

did that stop the Allied fanboys ?

HELL NO !

kill it , kill it , kill it was the cry

too overmoddeled , too overmoddeled , too overmoddeled was the cry

i dont even like the plane but someone had to put those biased american plane fans stright

it seems at UBI's FB forum only good allied planes are allowed

.
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alarmer
06-22-2004, 12:33 AM
I gotta admit that Iam with the same boat when it comes to this game going to poo in Realism section with later patch. All planes handle quite the same, I have never had actually trouble knowing how to fight a enemy.

But these days in Il2 I really find myself confused when sticked against a enemy plane, Iam not really sure what kinda tactic I should use.

Good example is the quite weird characteristic that some russian planes posses. You make a high speed BnZ at them, pull up. They have no energy but still they lift their nose and shoot. Usually ending in oil splatter or smoking engine. Whats with that? Is that realistic?

Ill make a track of this and post it later, probably in new thread if nobody answers it here.

WTE_Galway
06-22-2004, 12:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by alarmer:
I gotta admit that Iam with the same boat when it comes to this game going to poo in Realism section with later patch. All planes handle quite the same, I have never had actually trouble knowing how to fight a enemy.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It has often been claimed that, as the game has strived for a bigger and bigger market share, realism has gone out the window. Certianly the original IL2 was harder to fly then FB .. that is without a doubt .. but whether it was more realistic is another can of worms altogether.

NorrisMcWhirter
06-22-2004, 12:59 AM
Hi,

You only have to look at the box design of AEP/BoE to see where the marketing boys want out of the game; P-51 slap bang in the middle of it.

I wonder how the planes will be modelled in PF (Patriot fighters?).....(?)

Cheers,
Norris

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Hunde_3.JG51
06-22-2004, 11:02 AM
Just my quick take on things.

Our squad started off as a 262 squad, so it is a plane that I really enjoy flying. However, flown correctly it is virtually untouchable by any prop-plane, even the La-7. I flew the 262 for the first time in months on the Birds of Prey Full Real server (great server btw), and scored 4 victories (2 Spit IX's, and two P-51's) and destroyed two tanks in my first sortie and was never even close to being in danger. It is an awesome plane but I admit it is a bit overpowering and probably isn't much fun for the red side. Still, I don't see anything wrong with having it fly on one of the maps in the rotation for fun. Those on the red side should take it as a challenge and try to shoot down planes on takeoff and landing by sneaking around map to back of base for example. But I don't have a problem with servers that exclude it either, as its superiority can be overwhelming. Basically, I'm happy either way.

As for the USAAF planes, I don't have a problem with the P-40, P-47, or P-38. The P-51 turns too well at low speed and climbs a bit fast IMO, but then again the lack of dive and zoom modelling (at least IMO) doesn't help the Mustang either. But then that goes for the FW-190 and P-47 as well.

The Spitifre FM needs some work IMO, and changes in next patch should be interesting.

As for some of the VVS planes (Mig-3U, Mig-3/AM38, La-5 1942, and some others)....no comment. Actually I think the Yaks are pretty well modelled, relatively speaking.

Overall, as I said in another post, I think almost all planes are overmodelled to a point and combat looks more arcade-like than it should IMO. This is likely due to limitations in planes and pilots that are not modelled, and the use of "ideal data" to create flight models.

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Formerly Kyrule2
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Mattiflaps
06-22-2004, 12:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hunde_3.JG51:
Our squad started off as a 262 squad, so it is a plane that I really enjoy flying. However, flown correctly it is virtually untouchable by any prop-plane, even the La-7. I flew the 262 for the first time in months on the Birds of Prey Full Real server (great server btw), and scored 4 victories (2 Spit IX's, and two P-51's) and destroyed two tanks in my first sortie and was never even close to being in danger.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have flown the occasional He111 mission where I have taken down 4 bandits and a heap of ground targets. Does this mean the He111 is virtually untouchable? No, it was because-
A- I am a reasonably able He111 pilot/gunner
B- I was dealing with bandits who were using inapropriate tactics for He111 combat
C- I probabably had some luck on my side

I don't think claims can be made about a planes performance based on one sortie. Furthermore, the sortie you mention was on the Birds of Prey server. Now I think I've only been on that server once, but I seem to remember there were no ground target goals, and a fairly unlimited planeset. If these were the conditions in which you flew the 262 sortie in question, your flight parameters wouldn't have been constrained by any need to for example cover low altitude jabos who were under attack. Also, your opposition wouldn't have been flying specifically with me262 combat in mind, because they were faced with a large variety of enemy planes. If these wern't the conditions you were flying in, I apologise and you can ignore these last couple of points.
However, coming from a me262 squad, I imagine you are a particularly able 262 pilot. Not all 262 pilots will fly it with your ability - just as some La7 pilots are poor and get shot down, others are extremely good and are 'virtually untouchable', even by me262's.

I am not wholly disagreeing with you. The 262 is an uber plane. So is the La7,Yak3,P51. All I'm saying is that I think the 262 could be implemented by mission builders in such a way that the game is enjoyable for everyone. If nothing else, like you say, put it on one or two of the maps in rotation, just for fun.

[This message was edited by Mattiflaps on Tue June 22 2004 at 11:41 AM.]

Hunde_3.JG51
06-22-2004, 02:55 PM
No problem Mattiflaps, we actually agree. The conditions of the Me-262 sortie I spoke of were specific. The bases were close together so vulching would be easier for red. The mission briefing outlined blue & 262's taking out tanks in a specific area, so yes the 262 was known to be involved and there were ground targets. It wasn't an open planeset but there were one or two 109 and 190 versions available as well. The next map also included the 262 in the briefing under similar conditions, this time shipping was the target. Instead I took up my trusty A-9 and dispatched two Lightnings and a Mustang (in 3 seperate sorties though). Red seemed to learn from the mission before because they were coming in from all angles and in force to harrass the two blue bases. I saw some 262's get wasted that never had a chance since they were taking off, it was cool to see red working together. Actually the 3 planes I got were scored while performing base defense or while patrolling expected incursion routes. All in all the mission worked very well.

Another point I will make is that I have flown numerous 262 sorties online and I have never been shot down. I am an able pilot but the superiority of the Me-262 is a big part of it. But, as you say, some will fly it incorrectly and get killed.

Like I said, we do agree because I think there is a part for the 262 in one or two of the maps in a rotation if done properly (as was done on Birds of Prey). My point was that I understand the perspective of both sides, and if it is excluded it's no big deal, if it is included it is a nice surprise.

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Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/

darkhorizon11
06-22-2004, 06:21 PM
COMON BOYZZZZ

Jets are great, there not perfect. Their way over glorified. I'm a 262 guy, I've gotten pretty skilled and BnZ and ripping apart pretty much everything, but still, not perfect. Chuck Yeager and many other great allied pilots proved that they were still very fallible.
They can't take battle damage for ****, they can't throttle up and accelerate initially like a fighter and their horrible in the vertical. Given the jet engine is their heart and soul which sets them apart but ironically it is also their achilles heel. Use it to your advange.

LEXX_Luthor
06-22-2004, 07:08 PM
Sounds like Hunde is onto something. Real life 262 had a Mission, and so it should in FB. That's up to the community to do it right.

Red_Storm:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>P-51 is faster than the D9 at all altitudes, it turns much better, it climbs better and it has much more firepower. Sound fishy?

The La-7 is faster than the D9 [what happened to the at all altitudes here? -lexx], it turns much better, it has more firepower and it climbs better.

The Yak-3 is slower than the D9, but it turns better and has more firepower.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can agree about P~51 at low levels, but Red_Storm eagerly gave altitude info for P~51, but not La~7. Why not? Red_Storm does not want to talk about limited ammo for Yak~3. Why not?

From reading this, I don't think Me~262 is the problem online, the community is the problem. At least we don't need Oleg to "fix" the community for us.

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Mattiflaps
06-23-2004, 02:36 AM
On the subject on plane limiting, I mentioned earlier that a base could be limited to 2 planes by setting its radius to minimum in FMB. This has been done on the komet map on greatergreen. Interestingly, I was on that map today and realised that the north-east base is limited to 1 plane (a ki84c), so it must be possible to limit bases to 1 aswell, but I'm not sure how.

06-23-2004, 03:08 AM
this is done in the FMB

the map maker allows only one planes to be selected at that particular base by taking all others out of that bases plane list

.
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Mattiflaps
06-23-2004, 06:58 AM
Thanks Badsight, but I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. I realise you can limit a base to 1 TYPE of plane by removing all others from its planelist. But the ki84c base on the komet map is not only limited to 1 type of plane, it is limited to a max number of 1 pilot based there ie. at any one time there can only be one ki84c. Hope that makes sense http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif