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View Full Version : Airfield attacks are bloody mess!



bloblast
03-16-2006, 02:47 PM
I hope this will change in BOB!

AI planes do not seem to be aware of AAA, they just attack an airfield no matter what. These are suicide attacks.

5 of 8 getting killed is no exception during such an attack.

It's the No 1 cause of death of pilots in campaigns.

AAA fire seems to be very good, they are very hard to hit, and never get out of ammo.

bloblast
03-16-2006, 02:47 PM
I hope this will change in BOB!

AI planes do not seem to be aware of AAA, they just attack an airfield no matter what. These are suicide attacks.

5 of 8 getting killed is no exception during such an attack.

It's the No 1 cause of death of pilots in campaigns.

AAA fire seems to be very good, they are very hard to hit, and never get out of ammo.

Chuck_Older
03-16-2006, 03:10 PM
In real life, the tactic was to make One pass at the airfield


Just one. That's because the AAA would murder them

The trouble is the AI keeps attacking. Tell them to attack flak first http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

luftluuver
03-16-2006, 03:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
In real life, the tactic was to make One pass at the airfield

Just one. That's because the AAA would murder them

The trouble is the AI keeps attacking. Tell them to attack flak first http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Not all the time. During Bodenplatte, the a/c made several passes.

faustnik
03-16-2006, 03:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by luftluuver:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
In real life, the tactic was to make One pass at the airfield

Just one. That's because the AAA would murder them

The trouble is the AI keeps attacking. Tell them to attack flak first http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Not all the time. During Bodenplatte, the a/c made several passes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And were promptly murdered. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

VW-IceFire
03-16-2006, 03:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by luftluuver:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
In real life, the tactic was to make One pass at the airfield

Just one. That's because the AAA would murder them

The trouble is the AI keeps attacking. Tell them to attack flak first http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Not all the time. During Bodenplatte, the a/c made several passes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And were promptly murdered. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That seems to be the commonly accepted result during any attack against any large and well defended target.

Closterman's squadrons loss of 6 Tempests of 8 in the 10 or so seconds it took to blaze across a Luftwaffe airfield in March 1945 comes to mind.

faustnik
03-16-2006, 03:46 PM
An airfield should be treated like this:

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/250px-Killer_rabbit.jpg

VW-IceFire
03-16-2006, 04:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
An airfield should be treated like this:

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/250px-Killer_rabbit.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thats not a monster! Thats just a white rabbit! Charge!!!!!

(...and blow thy enemies to tiny bits.)

Treetop64
03-16-2006, 05:18 PM
Isn't it possible to simply recall your flight by issuing the "Rejoin" order after they made a run at an airfield?

SeaFireLIV
03-16-2006, 06:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Treetop64:
Isn't it possible to simply recall your flight by issuing the "Rejoin" order after they made a run at an airfield? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes.

But to the original poster. Real WWII attacks were often made like this and were often extremely dangerous. To either minimise these losses and get greater results, the Russians would make criss-crossing attacks SEVERAL times over a target to confuse AA and reduce the chance of being shot down. this was quite a successful tactic, but even so, many low flying bomber aircraft/fighters were still shot down.

I really wish people would read a few historical WWII books on fighter dogfight/ground tactics attacks and examples before making assumptions and expecting Oleg to change the sim. Never ASSUME anything before at least reading up a little about the real life facts of it in reality.

Reality often is more surprising than you think.

War is hell and many men died in WWII attempting near suicidal attacks.

ImpStarDuece
03-16-2006, 06:07 PM
Real WW2 attacks were often made against airfields with gun crews that weren't particularly alert and the advantage of suprise. Many an ace was brought down because of the 'one more pass' mentality.

RAF and USAAF fighter losses attributed to flak were almost double the losses attributed to enemy fighters in the last 18 months of the war.

tomtheyak
03-16-2006, 07:22 PM
What is needed is improved AI for both air and ground target and a more flexible and comprehensive command structure for the player to take advantage of it.

A 'surprised' function for AA would be awesome but that did not operate all the time. Some airbases would be clued in by local sources as to E/A activity and be waiting, at other times ytou might come across them completely unawares.

Also perhaps a temporary 'sleep' function too for an AA gun that has been strafed but not destroyed (to represent wounded/killed crew and then someone else taking over the gun).

Friendly AI has an annoying habit of taking out Searchlights as a priority when ordered to attack flak. I realise thats to do with coding but it is bloody silly when we all know what us humans would focus on! Personally the ability to order attacks in sequence would be great; firstly light flak guns, then heavy, then aircraft would be a good way to go about it. Also specifying an area to attack would also be handy. Its a pain when you are attacking other ground targets near an airfield and you find that your wingmen attack targets on the field instead and get blown to hâ£ll.

The ability to also avoid enemy airfields might be handy, tho tricky to code.

The AI are gung-ho buggers when it comes to attacking and always go round for another attack whatever the intensity of flak, which tho commendable, is less than ideal. However till we get sentient AI - and thats a massive arguement in itself! - it is something we have to live with, and frankly I'm very happy to! What a great sim!

VW-IceFire
03-16-2006, 09:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Treetop64:
Isn't it possible to simply recall your flight by issuing the "Rejoin" order after they made a run at an airfield? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes.

But to the original poster. Real WWII attacks were often made like this and were often extremely dangerous. To either minimise these losses and get greater results, the Russians would make criss-crossing attacks SEVERAL times over a target to confuse AA and reduce the chance of being shot down. this was quite a successful tactic, but even so, many low flying bomber aircraft/fighters were still shot down.

I really wish people would read a few historical WWII books on fighter dogfight/ground tactics attacks and examples before making assumptions and expecting Oleg to change the sim. Never ASSUME anything before at least reading up a little about the real life facts of it in reality.

Reality often is more surprising than you think.

War is hell and many men died in WWII attempting near suicidal attacks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Another good point. In a strike by the 56th Fighter Group and another P-47 unit there was a series of co-ordinated passes made by both groups until the airfield was a total smoking ruin. Some P-47s supressed flak fire while others attacked parked aircraft (in this case Heinkels with V-1s ontop) and other buildings and materials on the base.

If you've got enough fighters you can do a real number on them. But that was with 32 P-47s attacking a single airbase. It was all co-ordinated...as best as possible anyways.

Tater-SW-
03-16-2006, 09:42 PM
The AI needs a serious rework regardin ground attack. Odd considering the basis of the game, the Il-2.

The FMB pretty much requires a new kind of gattack waypoint, one that has the AI make a single pass shooting every single weapon they have within the target area. Strafe on ingress, dump bombs, then egress. That's what the 5th AF did, and it is totally impossible in PF short of a fully manned coop.

tater

JtD
03-16-2006, 11:31 PM
Ground attacks are only one problem, but I frequently found my fighter comrades to tangle enemy fighter over their base only to be blasted out of the sky by the AAA. They'd just ignore it.

And as long as you are not the wings commander, there is NOTHING you can do to stop them from being stupid - and usually I'd be the only one to return to base.

anarchy52
03-17-2006, 01:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by luftluuver:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
In real life, the tactic was to make One pass at the airfield

Just one. That's because the AAA would murder them

The trouble is the AI keeps attacking. Tell them to attack flak first http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Not all the time. During Bodenplatte, the a/c made several passes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And were promptly murdered. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That seems to be the commonly accepted result during any attack against any large and well defended target.

Closterman's squadrons loss of 6 Tempests of 8 in the 10 or so seconds it took to blaze across a Luftwaffe airfield in March 1945 comes to mind. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly the example I wanted to point out. Throughout his book you'll find examples of just how was dangerous low level attack on defended target. Closterman's book, while not the most reliable on strictly technical issues or historical issues (when he writes about things he wasn't directly involved in), is definitelly a magnifficent piece of literary art. Closterman writes from human point of view, what he saw, what he feared, what his thoughts were, unlike say Johnnie Johnson+s book - style is sterile and you get the feeling that this guy won the war single-handedly without breaking a sweat or ever being afraid.
Closterman is not ashamed to expose his fears and doubts and to admit that luck played a big part in determining who lived and who died.

mortoma
03-17-2006, 08:46 AM
My answer to the over accurate flak was to ( for Dgen campaigns ) go in all the template maps in the Dgen folder for all campaigns and simply reduce the number of flak units to half the original amount. This has also had a favorable effect on my frame rates. It took a helluva a long time to edit all the templates though!!

luftluuver
03-17-2006, 04:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
And were promptly murdered. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>More were lost to AAA on the flight to and from the attack and to a/c than lost on attacks on the airfields.

Chuck_Older
03-18-2006, 07:35 AM
But you must see the vital point in all of that-

They were lost to AAA, regardless of the fact that it was on the way to the airbases

AAA is AAA, the location is not the point here, it's AAA effectiveness. Putting AAA at an airbase in this sim or in real life doesn't effect it's efficiency

Monty_Thrud
03-18-2006, 07:59 AM
In the biography about Stapme(Gerald Stapleton) a Typhoon Squad leader, he said he would lose a plane every third pass whilst attacking ground targets...and yes the AAA is very good, as it should be, especially later in the war, AAA got better, as they didnt have much of an airforce...however in game it would have been nice to adjust the accuracy for fire for effect or targets of great importance...but i don't think there are any more patches...??...just the addons to buy AFAIK