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View Full Version : F4u-1c vs P-51D-20



BillSwagger
06-23-2009, 06:29 PM
I tried to refrain from posting this, but after a few encounters with a P-51 while flying an F4U-1c, i thought i would see what you guys think of this match up.

I'm not referring to real life comparisons, just simply in game observations.

What i've found, depsite what Il2 compare says, the f4u-1c is a very fast plane above 6km, and holds it speed well in and out of turns.

BillSwagger
06-23-2009, 06:29 PM
I tried to refrain from posting this, but after a few encounters with a P-51 while flying an F4U-1c, i thought i would see what you guys think of this match up.

I'm not referring to real life comparisons, just simply in game observations.

What i've found, depsite what Il2 compare says, the f4u-1c is a very fast plane above 6km, and holds it speed well in and out of turns.

DKoor
06-23-2009, 06:55 PM
Hm.
Depends on initial position a lot.
However I'd say that 51 has edge in most situations... also I think its safe to say that it also retains energy better, and can endure greater dive speed.

F4U-1C on the other hand has the fearful set of cannons (can snipe) and better turn ability (not so sure about this one). Corsair is heavier than Mustang so I guess it can dive better, however dive limit is not on the F4U's side. Should have somewhat better RoC especially on custom fuel settings.

All taken in consideration especially 51's speed I say Mustang holds some advantage.

WTE_Galway
06-23-2009, 07:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BillSwagger:
I tried to refrain from posting this, but after a few encounters with a P-51 while flying an F4U-1c, i thought i would see what you guys think of this match up.

I'm not referring to real life comparisons, just simply in game observations.

What i've found, depsite what Il2 compare says, the f4u-1c is a very fast plane above 6km, and holds it speed well in and out of turns. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My hunch is the F4u would handle a little more damage, especially in a head on encounter ... aside from that I suspect the P51 has enough edge to control the fight.

Just do a fly off and see how they shape up.

Blindman-
06-23-2009, 08:02 PM
I did a test of these two planes where 10 of each plane was manned by AI and one side pitted against the other. The F4U1-C would lose about 3-4 aircraft before the Mustangs all were shot down. I attribute much of this to the 4 cannons.

DKoor
06-23-2009, 08:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blindman-:
I did a test of these two planes where 10 of each plane was manned by AI and one side pitted against the other. The F4U1-C would lose about 3-4 aircraft before the Mustangs all were shot down. I attribute much of this to the 4 cannons. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You put 'em all on ACE?
Shouldn't matter whether they have cannons or machine guns that much (although it probably makes impact), I think it's the Ai... some of Ai is downright 'lazy' some aircraft have simply better fighting Ai.

Spitfire MK.IX 25lbs and A6M2-21 are among the toughest versus human that is.

Wildnoob
06-23-2009, 08:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
however dive limit is not on the F4U's side </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif by trials I've conduct with it's dive brakes, the Corsair can outdive anything on the sim.

SILVERFISH1992
06-23-2009, 08:42 PM
If you want my opinion, I'd go with the corsair. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

ElAurens
06-23-2009, 09:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wildnoob:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
however dive limit is not on the F4U's side </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif by trials I've conduct with it's dive brakes, the Corsair can outdive anything on the sim. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The F4U can exceed 500mph IAS in a dive with the dive brakes deployed and not fall apart?

I think not.

The P40 M has a higher Vne in the dive than any Corsair in this sim does, and the P51 will out dive the P40.

jayhall0315
06-23-2009, 09:59 PM
I have flown this very type of engagement many times, switching back and forth between the two airframes. Just my opinion but the Corsair wins at every altitude from 0 to 10000 meters. It turns better, is more stable, gets more altitude in a zoom, can suffer hits and has a mirror. The P51's greatest weakness in this particular match up is its water cooled engine. One decent hispano shot and poof, the P51 prop stops and she drops. The F4U-C can take massive damage and does well in frontal attacks too. It rarely loses its prop. The P51 is every so slightly faster at all altitudes up to 7000m and can outdive the Sair (910 kph versus ~ 830 kph or so) but it is just not enough of an advantage in a fair one on one duel.

Wildnoob
06-23-2009, 10:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wildnoob:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
however dive limit is not on the F4U's side </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif by trials I've conduct with it's dive brakes, the Corsair can outdive anything on the sim. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The F4U can exceed 500mph IAS in a dive with the dive brakes deployed and not fall apart?

I think not.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I exagerated really. I are having some strange thoughs in the last weeks that I have sure that are facts but in fact are not, really for sorry for afirmate something that migth even had informed wrong other people. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I don't have much time now, but I've make a new trial.

from 7500 meters, with the radiator closed, full realistic settings apart from external view to monitorate anything on the aicraft, I dive down straigth down with a Corsair with max power WEP engaged and dive brakes. it reach about 1600 meters and 800 km/h when the vertical stabilizer was trow away. them I stop.

the P-51, same conditions, reach about 2600 meters and 900 km/h and the same happen.

by this trial I get to the conclusion that the F4U dives better with it's dive brakes. not in terms of speed, witch in fact the P-51 dive's better like DKoor saied, but the F-4U with the dive brake's will be able to dive more further, even not having about 100 km/h less, logic because of the drag caused by the dive brake.

altough is a advantage that is very small and the plane will need a considerable altitude to dive away and may used it in air combat. but for dive bombing is another thing. you full open the radiator, put 0 on trottle, and feather the propeller. you can dive from 7500 until the deck with no problem. anyway, just a curiosity, know the subject here is aerial combat.

that's my preliminar conclusion. the F4U can dive sligth better with the dive brakes. but in pratical terms they are pretty competitive, the advantage is too small in the pratic would risk to say. I will conduct more tests, but folks, do them also to get to your conclusions.

again, really sorry and thank you for the attention!

BillSwagger
06-23-2009, 10:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jayhall0315:
I have flown this very type of engagement many times, switching back and forth between the two airframes. Just my opinion but the Corsair wins at every altitude from 0 to 10000 meters. It turns better, is more stable, gets more altitude in a zoom, can suffer hits and has a mirror. The P51's greatest weakness in this particular match up is its water cooled engine. One decent hispano shot and poof, the P51 prop stops and she drops. The F4U-C can take massive damage and does well in frontal attacks too. It rarely loses its prop. The P51 is every so slightly faster at all altitudes up to 7000m and can outdive the Sair (910 kph versus ~ 830 kph or so) but it is just not enough of an advantage in a fair one on one duel. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is inline with what i've observed.
I have yet to see an opponent nose over and go into a power dive to escape in a P-51. I would offer that the P-51 cant maneuver well at all above 500IAS with out losing a wing. I saw a guy snap his wing trying a similar move at much lower speeds, where i showed 440IAS(mph) in the f4U.
In all my fights against the P-51 in an f4U, i'm able to engage and be on their six with in a couple turns, then i hug their tail until they are forced into a shallow dive to gain speed. Then its a see saw battle for separation, and eventually I will have closed the gap enough to get a shot or force a turn that bleeds more energy from the P-51 that is more easily recovered in an F4U.


part of me wonders if the P-51 maintained more energy in turns than what is currently modeled.

TinyTim
06-24-2009, 03:39 AM
1 v 1 - mustang. Better speed, dive, comparable climb and maneouverability.

more v more - 'sair. Better guns, more durable.

ElAurens
06-24-2009, 10:40 AM
One little question.

Why are you fighting an Allied aircraft with an Allied aircraft?

Sorry, but that is just the strangest idea to me.

But then, I'm old fashioned about that sort of thing.

TinyTim
06-24-2009, 11:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
One little question.

Why are you fighting an Allied aircraft with an Allied aircraft?

Sorry, but that is just the strangest idea to me.

But then, I'm old fashioned about that sort of thing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Corsairs and Mustangs did fight eachother in reality. They scored last kills in prop vs prop fighter combat.

Football war. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_War)

general_kalle
06-24-2009, 12:53 PM
performance wise the P51 rules...better speed, better energy retaining, better turn radius at the right speed (above 430 kmh) but even though it performs better the Corsair is gonna take alot of 50 cal hits to bring down and if it just gets a few shells into the P51 its dead... the F4u-D with
50 calls is gonna be less effektive against the P51 but none the less i dont think the P51 will take alot of 50 cal hits where's the Corsair is more rugged.

ElAurens
06-24-2009, 04:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TinyTim:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
One little question.

Why are you fighting an Allied aircraft with an Allied aircraft?

Sorry, but that is just the strangest idea to me.

But then, I'm old fashioned about that sort of thing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Corsairs and Mustangs did fight eachother in reality. They scored last kills in prop vs prop fighter combat.

Football war. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_War) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well what do you know. Thanks TT.

Blindman-
06-24-2009, 07:22 PM
My statistics as mentioned above were based on some testing I made a year or so ago. I just redid the tests and extended them to include the C and D models and both Vet and Ace pilots. The resulting data does not support any conclusion (although I did notice that the AI dogfights more in the vertical with the P-51 than the Corsair).

Vet:
1 vs 1 favors the Mustang over the D
1 vs 1 favors the Mustang over the C
2 vs 2 favors the D over the Mustang
2 vs 2 favors the Mustang over the C
10 vs 10 favors the Mustang over the D
10 vs 10 favors the Mustang over the C

Ace:
1 vs 1 favors the D over the Mustang
1 vs 1 favors the C over the Mustang
2 vs 2 favors the Mustang over the D
2 vs 2 favors the Mustang over the C
10 vs 10 favors the D over the Mustang
10 vs 10 favors the Mustang over the C

The results were very consistent (each observation is based upon 5 trials). However, I expect that if I moved the way-points some of these results would change. My trials were at 3000 meters altitude, 450 kph and forces met at right angles (90degrees). I also tried some of these using the AI mod and got similar results (without the mod the missions proceeded and concluded nearly identically in all respects).

BillSwagger
06-24-2009, 09:18 PM
i was not aware 51s and f4Us actually fought each other, i was simply asking because its something i come across playing on a dogfight server, where you see a good mixture of planes competing against each other.
This is a match up that i was repeatedly successful in, with a variety of pilots flying a P-51.
In a couple instances the P-51 had a 3000M altitude advantage, but i was able to turn and bleed his energy to near even terms.

I experienced a similar fight with a FW190D, where we flew circles from 7000M downward to about 2000M. I was able to make tighter circles and eventually getting a snapshot on him a couple times. Eventually we got too low for him to maintain his energy to still have a chance, so he disengaged and used his remaining altitude to get some separation.

I really dont think the F4U is that bad of an aircraft, although i see/hear a lot of people's frustration with it.

I'm a P-47 fan myself, and given the components in the plane ie engine/supercharger, these two planes are near cousins, and should be flown in a similar manner.

TinyTim
06-25-2009, 04:22 AM
There's one thing I really cant bare with the 'sair - the cursed wobbles. I've tried various stick inputs, I've tamed wobbles on virtually any other craft, but not corsair. Whenever a slight amount of rudder is applied (especially together with elevator), plane wobbles wildly from left to right a few times, making me spray the ammo all over the sky. It really seems to me it's not an input related question and that a plane is modelled more like as a 1/72 plastic model hanging on elastic strings, rather than 5 tons of steel! The only instances I can get a steady shot in it are when I'm screaming towards my victim at a nearly breakup speed. This stiffens it up enough for me to be able to correct my fire without making the plane wobble like those silly dog toys in cars.

Those are interesting results Blindmann, I would expect Corsair-C to be the winner in more cases apart from 1v1. Especially ace 10v10 - there Ds beat Mustangs, but Mustangs beat Cs!

RPMcMurphy
06-25-2009, 07:21 AM
Every time I try some liquid cooled plane I end up falling back to a Corsair. I could go against 3 AI ace Zeros right now in an F4U1C head-on and immelman on them tear them up and eat their lunch. The jugs okay, but the F4U is the plane for me.
Versitile, big,carrier capable, can carry alot of ordinace, can dawg-fight, can go home looking like Swiss cheeeze. Its a half ugly beast but I wuv it.

BillSwagger
06-25-2009, 09:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TinyTim:
There's one thing I really cant bare with the 'sair - the cursed wobbles. I've tried various stick inputs, I've tamed wobbles on virtually any other craft, but not corsair. Whenever a slight amount of rudder is applied (especially together with elevator), plane wobbles wildly from left to right a few times, making me spray the ammo all over the sky. It really seems to me it's not an input related question and that a plane is modelled more like as a 1/72 plastic model hanging on elastic strings, rather than 5 tons of steel! The only instances I can get a steady shot in it are when I'm screaming towards my victim at a nearly breakup speed. This stiffens it up enough for me to be able to correct my fire without making the plane wobble like those silly dog toys in cars.

Those are interesting results Blindmann, I would expect Corsair-C to be the winner in more cases apart from 1v1. Especially ace 10v10 - there Ds beat Mustangs, but Mustangs beat Cs! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is something i notice more when i'm low on speed under 2000M, however if the IAS is kept above 200mph it will stay put.
I'm not sure if thats the way it actually flew or if its an effect augmented to create its landing characteristics. The Tempest does it too.

http://www.geocities.com/slakergmb/id46.htm

M_Gunz
06-25-2009, 10:23 AM
5 tons of metal with a 2000HP, over 10 ft dia gyroscope and air deflector out on the front doesn't take well
to kicking around. See what happens if you lower the rpms before making the guns pass.