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SgtWalt65
01-03-2005, 08:12 PM
I would imagine that this has been touched on before, so don't flame me too badly...hehe ). But when and why did they remove the other pair of 20mm Hispano Cannons from this C Variant?

http://www.supermarine-spitfire.co.uk/production.html

It would seem to me that someone somewhere fed Oleg some false information. Says here that it had no .303's and had just 4 x 20mm Hispano Cannons. The E Variant could have,2 x 0.5 inch machine guns + 2 x 20mm cannon.
Here's a break down of the variants.

Variant A - 8 x .303 inch machine guns

Variant B - 4 x .303 inch machine guns + 2 x 20mm cannon

Variant C - 4 x 20mm cannon + 500Ib bomb load

Variant E - 2 x .5 inch machine guns + 2 x 20mm cannon + 1000Ib bomb load

Total Mk.IX's ( all variants built ), 5,665 Variant B, C or E.

Any guesses? Or is this like one of the infamous FW190 series gun sight topics?

Atomic_Marten
01-03-2005, 08:16 PM
http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/images/smiles/pullhair.gif
aaaaargh!!! And you wait all this time with that info. If that proves to be true, we will have a blast Spit in our game. http://www.rtcw.co.uk/forums/images/smilies/boom.gif

Also I'm using the opportunity to say that the IXc is my favourite variant of Spit.(4x.303s and 2x20mms still have heavy punch). http://www.rtcw.co.uk/forums/images/smilies/boom.gif

SgtWalt65
01-03-2005, 08:23 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
aaaaargh!!! And you wait all this time with that info. If that proves to be true, we will have a blast Spit in our game.

Well seeing as officially the Variant C and E, never had .303's, I wonder what if anything Oleg and team will say? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

JG7_Rall
01-03-2005, 08:33 PM
Yikes, more hispanos http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

Wert4562
01-03-2005, 09:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SgtWalt65:
I would imagine that this has been touched on before, so don't flame me too badly...hehe ). But when and why did they remove the other pair of 20mm Hispano Cannons from this C Variant?

http://www.supermarine-spitfire.co.uk/production.html

It would seem to me that someone somewhere fed Oleg some false information. Says here that it had no .303's and had just 4 x 20mm Hispano Cannons. The E Variant could have,2 x 0.5 inch machine guns + 2 x 20mm cannon.
Here's a break down of the variants.

Variant A - 8 x .303 inch machine guns

Variant B - 4 x .303 inch machine guns + 2 x 20mm cannon

Variant C - 4 x 20mm cannon + 500Ib bomb load

Variant E - 2 x .5 inch machine guns + 2 x 20mm cannon + 1000Ib bomb load

Total Mk.IX's ( all variants built ), 5,665 Variant B, C or E.

Any guesses? Or is this like one of the infamous FW190 series gun sight topics? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


While this is all true...


The letters only apply to the wing of the Spitfire, not the plane itself...


The IXc, as far as I know, was only a designation, and could thusly have any of the four wings...

The following I do know...

The E wing was VERY rare, the C mostly being on late-war aircraft (mostly Griffon), and the B being the most common...

p1ngu666
01-03-2005, 09:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
Yikes, more hispanos http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

luckly todays special is a mk12 spit, with what u asked for http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


http://premium1.uploadit.org/pingu666/uberspit.jpg



http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif


nah the "C" could take 4 20mm, with 120rpg i think, but they normaly had had 2 20mm and 4 303

only VC (spit mkV) had 4 cannon, due to weght often removed and stuff

J_Weaver
01-03-2005, 09:47 PM
Here's my 2 cents worth.

According to Classic Warbirds Supermarine Spitfire by Mike Spick:
A-wing; 4 .303
B-wing; 2 .303 x 1 20mm
C-wing; 2 20mm
E-wing; 1 .50 x 1 20mm

I would sure love to see a C-wing with 2 20mm's. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

VW-IceFire
01-03-2005, 10:04 PM
RIGHT. This always comes up. Here's the breakdown:

Type A: 8 .303 machine guns
Type B: 4 .303 machine guns and 2 20mm Hispano cannons (60rpg in drum feed)
Type C: So called universal wing with provisions for 4 .303 machine guns and 4 20mm cannons (with 120 rpg in a belt feed).
Type D: I *think* this is the redesigned wing with 4 20mm Hispano cannons first used on the Mark 21 (I believe it may have first originated on the Mark IV or one of the other more obscure prototypes but don't quote me on this)
Type E: Same as the Type C wing except the provisions for 4 .303s are removed and 2 .50cal are added on the inboard wing with the 20mm cannons being moved outboard. This was evidently done to fix a problem with wing structure and the weight of underwing bombs.

Now...the story to the case of the 4 cannon C type Spitfires.

The first of the Spitfire's to reach squadron service with 4 20mm cannons on them were the tropicalized Mark Vc. On arrival at Malta they were deployed in combat. Experience, especially at high altitude, suggested that the Mark V was simply not suited to having 4 cannons installed. Performance was degraded by far too much. So these particular Spitfires had their two cannons removed and they flew with 2 20mm cannons only. This prompted the change to equip most later Vc's, and the shortly following IXc's to use the 4 .303 and 2 20mm armament. It was felt that the two cannons was substantial enough for anti-fighter operations and that the 4 machine guns were a good enough backup if one or both cannon jammed during firing.

The first production model Spitfires to feature 4 20mm cannons throughout the entire lineup was the Mark 21 which was in service at the end of the war but just barely. By this point, the power of the Griffon engine, the redesigned wings (much less eliptical), and the consideration that to shoot down a jet a pilot had much less time on target, meant that the 4 cannon armament was practical.

That is an amagamation of information gleaned from books on the Spitfire, production documents that I can find, photo examples, documents posted on these forums, and the logical assertions made therin. Find me a picture of a Mark IXc with 4 cannons...that is an extraordinary task since I have not yet seen such a beast. If it did exist it was rare.

Finally, if you're slightly confused about the B and C types of armament here's a bit of a rundown. The B type armament was first tried during the Battle of Britain. Standard fitting on most planes was the 8 .303 at this point. They were experimenting with some Spitfires in frontline use with the cannons. The wing was redesigned to accomodate the Hispano cannon, its huge barrel, and a 60 round drum in the wing. Two .303's taken out to achieve this. They were initially not popular because of lack of relability...however, by the time of the Mark V coming out this armament was substantially more reliable and the Vb's were far more common than the Va's were. The C type was much more of a total redesign with two cannon bays per wing (on all versions, even when the 2x20mm and 4x303 was used) and the E type was derivative of the C standard.

Phew! Didn't mean for it to be so long! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SgtWalt65
01-03-2005, 10:08 PM
Well then, Oleg and crew should not refer the the Mk.IXc Spitfire, as the Mk.IXc Spitfire, even if it was a rare one, had 2x20mm cannons per wing. They should just pretend it never existed and just show only the Mk.IXe by itself. Also if you will research it some more, the first full production Spit with onlt 20mm was not the Mk.21 but the Mk.IVX for european theather I think ( Aka Mk.14 ) correct me if I am wrong there VW-Icefire. SALUTE! Also wasn't the MkXXI the Seafire??
Also the C wing variant deleted the provisions for the .303 according to Supermarine, to make more room for the ammo for the 4 x 20mm Hispanos and weight constraints.

J_Weaver
01-03-2005, 10:15 PM
Quite right IceFire. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif If I had bothered to read further in my book and not just look at the chart I would have found what you just said. I was watching a show on the History Channel today about the Spitfire and it had footage of a flight of tropical Vc with the four 20mm's.

SgtWalt, not really. Although the in game C and B wings are very similar the C carried 120 rpg on a belt where the B only had 60 rpg in a drum http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SgtWalt65
01-03-2005, 10:17 PM
Also have you seen the Mk.VIIIc? There is one here in Texas. IT does indeed have the 2 x 20mm Hispanos per wing. According to information this owner has. The Mk.IXc carried only 4 x 20mm normally ( but could carry 4 x 20mm cannons with 4 x 0.50" ( total both wings. Divide by 2 please ) machine guns but a significant hit to performance in flight and in rounds of ammo carried. Not a good trade off in my opinion ).
Since I get to work on this particular Mk.VIIIc from time to time ( I believe this aircraft did not originally have a C Variant wing according to the log and records book, but saw combat in the CBI theater in WW2 and was field modified with a C Wing from a wrecked or damaged aircraft ). This wing has no provisions at all for any .303 machine guns. No panels / doors or gun mounts. It only has the panels / doors, 20mm Hispano Cannon mounts "4 Each", shell drop chutes "4 Each" and ammo trays for the 4 x 20mm's. I cannot prove it completely, but would imagine this wing was removed from a unserviceable Mk.IXc to get a Mk.VIII( Variant? Unkown, no info in the historical records or log books. This Aircraft was flown by Ginger Lacy also according to the log books ), back flying again. This would be likely seeing as parts from England might take a while to get to the China, India, Burma theater of Operations.

Another interesting note on this aircraft. It has fully "Manual" ajustable radiator doors for the engine coolant / oil coolant under the wings, which I believe are missing in this sim, or was this also a field modification due to the heat. Thats likely since the Spit may not have been designed to operate originally in that type of enviroment.

p1ngu666
01-03-2005, 10:37 PM
mk21 had 4 cannon, also u can fire each set indvidualy, aswell as all together http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

SgtWalt65
01-03-2005, 10:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J_Weaver:
Quite right IceFire. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif If I had bothered to read further in my book and not just look at the chart I would have found what you just said. I was watching a show on the History Channel today about the Spitfire and it had footage of a flight of tropical Vc with the four 20mm's.

SgtWalt, not really. Although the in game C and B wings are very similar the C carried 120 rpg on a belt where the B only had 60 rpg in a drum http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey J_Weaver, thanks for the extra info. Also did you check out the web link I set above on original post. According to some, this is an offcial production sheet from Supermarine ( even though they no longer make aircraft or even exist anymore, I think ). Unless its under a different name.

http://www.supermarine-spitfire.co.uk/production.html

Atomic_Marten
01-03-2005, 11:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SgtWalt65:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
aaaaargh!!! And you wait all this time with that info. If that proves to be true, we will have a blast Spit in our game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well seeing as officially the Variant C and E, never had .303's, I wonder what if anything Oleg and team will say? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What in the God's name are you talking about http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif? I mean about .303s and Mark IXc Spitfire? It turns up that the Icefire has more accurate data.. So far no Spit 4x20mm for us.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Well you have just upset me http://acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/images/smiles/stupid.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

VW-IceFire
01-04-2005, 07:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SgtWalt65:
Well then, Oleg and crew should not refer the the Mk.IXc Spitfire, as the Mk.IXc Spitfire, even if it was a rare one, had 2x20mm cannons per wing. They should just pretend it never existed and just show only the Mk.IXe by itself. Also if you will research it some more, the first full production Spit with onlt 20mm was not the Mk.21 but the Mk.IVX for european theather I think ( Aka Mk.14 ) correct me if I am wrong there VW-Icefire. SALUTE! Also wasn't the MkXXI the Seafire??
Also the C wing variant deleted the provisions for the .303 according to Supermarine, to make more room for the ammo for the 4 x 20mm Hispanos and weight constraints. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ummm....yes they should be refering to it as a Mark IXc. The C type armament as I explained is in reference to the wings capabilities and not the actual armament installed. As I mentioned there are the following provisions in nearly all Spitfires of this type:
- 4 20mm cannons
- 4 .303 machine guns

However, in combat only 2 cannons and 4 machine guns were fitted. This is the standard armament having been used on thousands of Spitfires ranging from the Mark V upto the XVIII. I think you are confused on the details of how the naming convention worked (as I was years ago on the subject till I read a whole lot more and bought some more books). Also keep in mind that the E type designation was derivative of the C type designation except that the provision for .303 was removed in this version and the inner cannon bays were fitted with .50cal machine guns. Most of the E types were used for ground attack (but not all). The FIRST Spitfire to be standard fitted with 4 20mm cannons in any configuration is the Mark 21. Previous to that you always had 4 .303 and 2 20mm or 2 .50cal and 2 20mm cannons. Almost no Spitfires saw service in WWII with more than 2 cannons total.

This VIII that you know of sounds like a very rare bird. Whats its serial number? I know of most Spitfires but I have not heard of this one. I'd love to see a picture.

Another point that MAY have confused you regarding armament types and aircraft designations for the Spitfire.

The Spitfire IX's were using C type armament right from the start. There was never a IXb. There was however an IXB. Now you say what? This has to do with the engine installation. The first IX's to be produced had the Merlin 61 engine. Supercharger kicked in at somewhere around 25000 feet. Problem being that this Spitfire was only faster than the FW190 at some altitudes. So they changed the engine design and the supercharger and created the Merlin 66 engine. The vast majority of IX's were fitted with the Merlin 66. In squadron service, these new IX's were called IXB's by the maitenence crew (you'll see this on pilots and ground crew records). However, they were not fitted with the early B type armament...they were standard C type (with two 20mm and 4 .303). Only later did the official nomenclature of LF IX come down the pipeline. This was a point of confusion for me as well until I discovered that reading yet another book.

Assertions to be made:
1) No Spitfire was fitted with 4 20mm cannons as a standard fit until the Mark 21 with a redesigned wing. The early tropical Mark Vc was an anomaly compaired to the thousands of Spitfires produced with C wings and only 2 cannons.
2) Oleg has got the naming conventions right on the Spitfire IX's. They are all LF IX Spitfires with either C type or E type wings.
3) The game is absolutely correct in this regard.
4) Standard C armament is 2 20mm cannons and 4 .303 machine guns. Standard E type is the same except with the removal of the .303s and the swaping of the 20mm cannon to the outboard cannon slot and the installation of the .50cal inboard.

This is backed up by all that I know on Spitfires according to documents and books that I have read including at least one book that was sponsored by the air ministry and the RAF.

This VIIIc the you know of. A serial number, pictures, and further details would be interesting because this would be a totally unique and rare bird to see!

BTW: We all may yet see a Mark Vc tropical with 4 20mm cannons. Not sure how that will be done. It'll be a slug in handling for sure. We may also yet see the introduction of the Mark 22 into the game as well which would have 4 20mm cannon standard. So such a Spit, although rare, may show up yet...

VW-IceFire
01-04-2005, 07:39 AM
The only VIII I can find, by doing a search online, that lives in Texas is Spitfire VIIIc MT719.

Here's a decent picture of it on the ground.
http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/spitfiremk2a/images/MT719_PKirby84_G1.jpg

Note that there is only a single cannon in the inboard cannon bay. The other bay is empty (and has a fairing over it for aerodynamic purposes). Less visible is the ports for the two .303cal machine guns.

Here's a few more pictures and a reference on this Spitfire:
http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/database/museums/showimage.php?id=1609
http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/database/museums/showimage.php?id=1548
http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/museums/tx/cfmtx/mt719.htm

Is this the VIII you're talking about? Its got machine guns in the wings and only one cannon in each wing. I can't find any more references to a Spitfire VIII in Texas aside from this one. Its a real beauty too...very well maintained!

SgtWalt65
01-04-2005, 09:39 AM
Yes this is the same aircraft. It has the gun barrel holes in the wings for the 303's, but no upper wing panels for access and no mounts. Internally it has 4 x 20mm Hispano Cannon mounts with the ammo trays and drop chutes for the empty cases. All 4 cannon holes are sealed over as well. No fake or real barrels are installed ( read that as capped for aerodynamic reasons ). The 303 shell casings drop chutes are also none exsistant on the lower portion of the wings. But the 4 x 20mm's are there, but are are sealed as well.

LStarosta
01-04-2005, 01:14 PM
More Hispanos?

WTF, Cannon affirmitive action?

Friendly_flyer
01-04-2005, 01:24 PM
Ooooo, four Hispanos and Spiftfire performance? This plane must be an absolute killer!

NORAD_Zooly10
01-04-2005, 01:43 PM
and i quote 'many VCs carried four 20mm Hispano cannon, although in practice two of these were routinely removed'
a little info here (although its slightly ambiguous).
~S~
Zooly

pourshot
01-04-2005, 02:35 PM
I think it€s a bad idea to use restored warbirds as reference material, they are more often than not reconstructed from whatever can be found and do not always represent a accurate portrayal of the model as was used in the war.

I think Icefire has it correct.

Platypus_1.JaVA
01-04-2005, 02:38 PM
We need a MkI badly!

VW-IceFire
01-04-2005, 05:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SgtWalt65:
Yes this is the same aircraft. It has the gun barrel holes in the wings for the 303's, but no upper wing panels for access and no mounts. Internally it has 4 x 20mm Hispano Cannon mounts with the ammo trays and drop chutes for the empty cases. All 4 cannon holes are sealed over as well. No fake or real barrels are installed ( read that as capped for aerodynamic reasons ). The 303 shell casings drop chutes are also none exsistant on the lower portion of the wings. But the 4 x 20mm's are there, but are are sealed as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The problem with what you are saying is that if this plane has four cannons....its missing two cannon barrels (and fairings)! Those tubes outboard of the two cannons are not cannon barrels (nor do they even resemble the barrels ro the fairing used)...thats the standard cover for the cannon outlet which was put in place after it was deemed that only two cannons would be installed. If the actual cannon is still present in the wing...it has no barrel because the barrel on a Hispano cannon is very long (except on the Mark V version) and would stick out much further than is present on these pictures.

The lack of access panels may simply be a compromise made when the plane was returned to flying status. The panels may have been welded shut or removed and faired over for weight savings (better fuel economy or some such). The fact that the openings still exist tells me that the wing once held the machine guns.

But the simple fact is that no...this Spitfire has only two cannons total. The extra bay as I have said twice before (in detail) is a result of the C type wing construction and not the actual usage of 4 cannons in squadron service or even in serial production.

For actual information on the Spitfire I suggest the following books:
- Spitfire In Action (Squadron Signal Publications)
- Spitfire: Flying Legend (John Dibbs and Tony Holmes, forward by Air Commodore Alan Deere DSO, CBE, DFC, and bar)
- Spitfire In Combat (Alfred Price)

These are excellent books (there are many more - I'm always open to new suggestions!). I share your love for Spitfires but I respectfully disagree with your assertion that this game (or any of the others that have come out that I know about) is wrong when regarding the usage of four cannoned Spitfires.

Atomic_Marten
01-04-2005, 06:12 PM
I agree with you IceFire, but if there is any chance for us to see the 4 cannon type (Type D?), it shouldn't be so har to remove .303s and add 2 Hispano cannons.

SgtWalt65 thanks for bring this issue up, and also thanks VW-IceFire for detailed data. I did not know about this.. geez I constantly learn something new on this forum.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

pourshot
01-04-2005, 06:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>but if there is any chance for us to see the 4 cannon type (Type D?), it shouldn't be so har to remove .303s and add 2 Hispano cannons <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We only need the universal C wing to use the 4x20mm combo. And AFAIK the 4 cannon only wing (no provision for out board MG's at all) was not fitted until the MK21 it was a totaly new wing.

pourshot
01-04-2005, 06:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But the simple fact is that no...this Spitfire has only two cannons total. The extra bay as I have said twice before (in detail) is a result of the C type wing construction and not the actual usage of 4 cannons in squadron service or even in serial production.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

C wing

4x20mm cannon OR 4x.303mg + 2x20mm cannon.

I know the RAAF had at least one VIIIc with 4 cannon.Again it was later reduced to just the 2 becuase it was used solely for high alt intercept and the reduced load was welcomed.

Atomic_Marten
01-04-2005, 06:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pourshot:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>but if there is any chance for us to see the 4 cannon type (Type D?), it shouldn't be so har to remove .303s and add 2 Hispano cannons <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We only need the universal C wing to use the 4x20mm combo. And AFAIK the 4 cannon only wing (no provision for out board MG's at all) was not fitted until the MK21 it was a totaly new wing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did not expressed my thoughts properly. By remove .303s and add 2 Hispano cannons I have meant from programmers point of view. That would be only external minor modification in modeller point of view. I think he would not have to change anything other than that for external model. C or D model that does not matter for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

pourshot
01-04-2005, 07:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pourshot:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>but if there is any chance for us to see the 4 cannon type (Type D?), it shouldn't be so har to remove .303s and add 2 Hispano cannons <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We only need the universal C wing to use the 4x20mm combo. And AFAIK the 4 cannon only wing (no provision for out board MG's at all) was not fitted until the MK21 it was a totaly new wing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did not expressed my thoughts properly. By _remove .303s and add 2 Hispano cannons_ I have meant from programmers point of view. That would be only external minor modification in modeller point of view. I think he would not have to change anything other than that for external model. C or D model that does not matter for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

CC it was just a FYI mate http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

But what I ment was that a C wing with 4 cannon or 2 cannon and 4 mg's is still a C wing.

VW-IceFire
01-04-2005, 08:49 PM
Atomic_Marten and pourshot, absolutely right on the money http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm not surprised that there was at least one RAAF VIIIc with a 4 cannon load. Its not like it was impossible. It'd be fairly easy for them to field modify the plane to remove the .303s and toss in a second cannon on the outboard slot. The provisions were there...it was just rare to use it.

The D type, which I'm not even sure if its official (I should research that more), would have first shown up on the Mark 21 and then appeared on the 22 and the sebsequent Seafires. You'll notice this as a totally redesigned wing...less of an eliptical shape.

Example here:
http://www.vflintham.demon.co.uk/aircraft/spit/spit22.jpg

That'd be a Mark 22 which you can quite plainly see the change of wing design and the standard 4 cannon loadout. No provisions for machine guns. At this stage, the Hispano 20mm was almost as reliable as the .303s...enough to justify their removal anyways.

Atomic_Marten
01-05-2005, 06:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pourshot:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pourshot:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>but if there is any chance for us to see the 4 cannon type (Type D?), it shouldn't be so har to remove .303s and add 2 Hispano cannons <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We only need the universal C wing to use the 4x20mm combo. And AFAIK the 4 cannon only wing (no provision for out board MG's at all) was not fitted until the MK21 it was a totaly new wing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did not expressed my thoughts properly. By _remove .303s and add 2 Hispano cannons_ I have meant from programmers point of view. That would be only external minor modification in modeller point of view. I think he would not have to change anything other than that for external model. C or D model that does not matter for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

CC it was just a FYI mate http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

But what I ment was that a C wing with 4 cannon or 2 cannon and 4 mg's is still a C wing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

RgrT. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif