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slarsson
08-30-2004, 12:44 PM
I'm having some trouble with this. I mainly fly Spit V, occasionally Spit IX, and it is my understanding that I should be able to turn fight with a 109. However, despite trying to stay at corner speed (which I believe is about 300 kph), I find that the 109 is able to get on my six, but I rarely can get on his.
I can't claim to be a great pilot, but I would like to understand if I'm doing something wrong here.....

Steph Larsson
Vancouver's Island
At or about L 48? 26.06'N, Lo 123? 19.31'W
http://www.stephsdigitals.com

slarsson
08-30-2004, 12:44 PM
I'm having some trouble with this. I mainly fly Spit V, occasionally Spit IX, and it is my understanding that I should be able to turn fight with a 109. However, despite trying to stay at corner speed (which I believe is about 300 kph), I find that the 109 is able to get on my six, but I rarely can get on his.
I can't claim to be a great pilot, but I would like to understand if I'm doing something wrong here.....

Steph Larsson
Vancouver's Island
At or about L 48? 26.06'N, Lo 123? 19.31'W
http://www.stephsdigitals.com

El Turo
08-30-2004, 12:49 PM
Don't "turn" fight.. which I'm assuming is more or less a flat/level turn on your part, yes?

Use geometry/energy to your advantage instead.

Visit: www.il2flying.com (http://www.il2flying.com)

I've posted a few articles in the "Knowledge" section. I'd recommend the YOYO section and fundamentals section under "El Turo".

Best,

~T.

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
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XyZspineZyX
08-30-2004, 01:05 PM
That's good advice to be sure, Butcher, but if I were in a Spit vs. a 109, I'd certainly be MUCH more inclined to rely on turn than if it were the other way around.

My advice is not to rely so much on "corner speeds". Staying at any speed, while ideal for "slide rule dogfighting" ignores whatever other conditions are present. If you can drop below corner speed in order to get a few instantaeous degrees on a target and a quick SHOT (which, with the way Hispanos are modelled, is all you need), you'd take it, wouldn't you?

Use corner speed data as a rough guide for engagement speeds to "hover around"; it's not a hard fast limit, and you CAN turn both above and below that speed...it's just that, OVER TIME (which you often don't have in a dogfight) and in a sustained turn, it will get you the best performance.

F19_Ob
08-30-2004, 01:12 PM
I flew the 109 alot before, and have tetsed the spits since AEP, especially after a mate on GG said it couldnt outturn 109's and that it felt akward. I told him to give it some time since many of the 109 drivers had flown 109's for years (like i did) and they know it inside out.
I ofcourse couldnt resist to test his experience my self in detail (i'm a bit geeky that way )


My own conclusion so far is that the spits are more difficult to fly. They have good armament and are fully capable of shooting down 109's, and can out turn them in the "short" perspective or if it has an angle on the enemy, but not in sustained turning. The 109 have far better low speed capabilities, better accelleration and climb and when the spit has lost its speed its on the mercy of the 109 pilot who in this situation may out turn it, while the spit likely will flip in turn or scissoring attempts.

Although I have shot down many 109's with it online, I dont seem to be able to outturn 109's in horisontal sustained turns, i need that angle on him to be able to do that.
I survive more often in the 109 and seldom nailed by spits.
Fighting against spits i try to get them low and into slow scissoring, but again I have bounced a few spits that have managed to get away.

I have no idea if this relation is correct or not but something nags me about it.
Perhaps i need to fly the spit a few years more?

Well, my opinion http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

tttiger
08-30-2004, 01:46 PM
The key to turning either of the Spits (but especially the IX) is throttle control.

As I'm sure you know, you don't have combat flaps. (This also applies to the Hurri).

If you don't throttle back when you start a turn, the Merlin is going to pull you out on a much wider arc than you want.

The slower the turn, the shorter the radius. Then punch it when you're about to come out of the turn.

I think more than any other plane, working the throttle in turns is essential in a Spit.

(This was also true when I flew WarBirds. If both sims model it similarly there probably is some historical basis for it).

It's vator, ailerons, rudder AND throttle in the Spit. Oh...and then you black out http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Butcher is right (but, thanks anyway, I'll stick to Shaw's book for my tactics lessons) and you do need to learn the geometry and how to do rolling scissors, high and low yo-yos and similar maneuvers. But the key to turning a Spit is to throttle back.

GL

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

[This message was edited by tttiger on Mon August 30 2004 at 12:59 PM.]

VW-IceFire
08-30-2004, 03:39 PM
The key in a Spitfire is to not get into a turn fight. Nobody should get into a turn fight except a Zero and even then its ultimately foolhardly.

What you do with the Spitfire is use that turn ability to quickly slide into your enemies six for a brief moment, enough to deflection shoot your target, and then blast him or miss him and zoom away for another pass.

The Spitfires turn shouldn't be used to go around and around and around. It ultimately means that either you both end up at low speed and at low altitude with nothing much else to do and it also means that someone above is ready to nail you once you stop turning.

I agree with Ob...the Spitfire turns better initially but after a good sustained turn the 109's tend to pull ahead. Against the Mark V its the F-4 or the G-2 that really stand out and against the Mark IX its the G-6 Late and G-6A/S (which has several advantages over the Spitfire IX overall). The K-4 and G-10 don't seem to turn as well sustained but they have so much climb and horsepower that its not a problem. It'd be like that for the Spitfire XIV as well no doubt.

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TgD Thunderbolt56
08-30-2004, 07:50 PM
Too many factors to mention all of them, but one to keep in mind is friendly vs enemy ratio. If you're outnumbered a turnfight can be certain death regardless of what you're flying.


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BaldieJr
08-30-2004, 08:17 PM
I don't fly spits because I'm far too good looking, but something that may ( or may not ) help is putting flaps on a slider to get incremental settings that key bindings don't allow.

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El Turo
08-30-2004, 09:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Butcher is right (but, thanks anyway, I'll stick to Shaw's book for my tactics lessons)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Thanks for the underhanded compliment. You'll please note that anything I've written for publishing at the website has been with the novice/intermediate pilot in mind. Hence, the intentional and deliberate omission of techno-speak and jargon where I could avoid it.

You'll note that I did not suggest the website for your benefit.. but for the inexperienced feller that began the thread looking for assistance.

Best,

~T.

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
This place
was once
a place
of worship
I thought,
reloading my rifle.

~V.

WUAF_Badsight
08-31-2004, 12:10 AM
well although Baldie is going to Hell for certian Spitfire comments he's made in the past , this time hes bang on

without flaps you can win turning fights , but the Bf109 does have flaps so your stuffed when slow

the Messerschmit has better power for ultra low speed fighting

best bet is to use DF tactics that differ from constant turning

.
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BfHeFwMe
08-31-2004, 12:35 AM
Yeah, ttt has it, you chop throttle and get the power load off, you can snap that nose around with the stick in your guts. Bf pilot doesn't dare do that, he'll lose half his energy.

Same thing when they drop in a falling spiral and use power on, roll, and rudders. Back off the throttle a bit and a spit will ride along right on their @zz, than chew them up with .50's. Otherwise they'll lose you, no way your going to match that fast roll powered full up.