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Comrade_Sasha
06-11-2007, 11:08 AM
It seems to me that Spits (of all stripe) are nerfed and are simply too easy to fly and over-match pretty much everything else in the sky. Witness the loadout on dogfight servers- dollars to donuts that a minimum of half will be flying a Spit of some kind, while the rest are split between La-7's and Ki-84's; only a small percentage seems to go to 'loser' planes (which interestingly seem to be P-51's, P-47's, and Bf-109's of some kind- even though these are all generally regarded as being some of the finest fighters ever built!)

Are Spits THAT good of a plane or are they way over-nerfed for IL2 players? I tend to think the latter (think: get people in the mood for Spits and release Battle Of Britain featuring...SPITS!) Personally I regard the entire Spit line as nOOb planes and avoid them- I prefer to challenge myself more in a 109 or even a I-153 over a Spit.

Thoughts? Comments? Hate Mail?

Comrade_Sasha
06-11-2007, 11:08 AM
It seems to me that Spits (of all stripe) are nerfed and are simply too easy to fly and over-match pretty much everything else in the sky. Witness the loadout on dogfight servers- dollars to donuts that a minimum of half will be flying a Spit of some kind, while the rest are split between La-7's and Ki-84's; only a small percentage seems to go to 'loser' planes (which interestingly seem to be P-51's, P-47's, and Bf-109's of some kind- even though these are all generally regarded as being some of the finest fighters ever built!)

Are Spits THAT good of a plane or are they way over-nerfed for IL2 players? I tend to think the latter (think: get people in the mood for Spits and release Battle Of Britain featuring...SPITS!) Personally I regard the entire Spit line as nOOb planes and avoid them- I prefer to challenge myself more in a 109 or even a I-153 over a Spit.

Thoughts? Comments? Hate Mail?

Pollack2006
06-11-2007, 11:15 AM
You're comparing a non-cockpit arcade environment with real world aerial environments. Try a more realistic server and you'll discover the Spitfire isn't the wonder plane you think it is.

You'll also wonder how you ever called the P-47, 51 "loser planes".

LStarosta
06-11-2007, 11:15 AM
http://forums.ytmnsfw.com/images/smilies/findanewforum.jpg

MEGILE
06-11-2007, 11:17 AM
omg he knows!11111111 the secrets out!111111

TO THE GULAG!222222222111111!!!!!!!11111111

mbfRoy
06-11-2007, 11:24 AM
http://www.myfishingpictures.com/watermark.php?file=500/50654171.gif

I've been flying the P-51 a bit lately, and I think it is a wonderful plane. I've had no problems at all shooting down Spits (IX models) using the right maneuvers. It just needs to get some altitude and speed, that's all! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

crazyivan1970
06-11-2007, 11:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pollack2006:
You're comparing a non-cockpit arcade environment with real world aerial environments. Try a more realistic server and you'll discover the Spitfire isn't the wonder plane you think it is.

You'll also wonder how you ever called the P-47, 51 "loser planes". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pretty much summs it up... your answer along those lines.

M_Gunz
06-11-2007, 11:38 AM
For over 10 years the subject has been debated going back to early 90's pay to play sims.

Why is it that every attempt at making a historically correct sim that has Spitfires in it,
the same 'complaint' is lodged? Well, you could get a modded version of some sims where
the Spits don't stack up but you can get UFO mods too.

Is it possible that the Spitfires really were easier to fly by less experienced pilots?
Is it possible that the kind of flying where they stand out is also the kind of flying
where shooting is easier, ie staying close to enemy tail in hard turning combat?
Is it possible that Spitfires changed during the war to stay competitive and even gained
in that respect?

The big draggy wings that somehow reached .89 mach...
I see surface area in drag formula but it is Induced Drag formula. Induced Drag is also
scaled by C/L that becomes SMALL when AOA is reduced, perhaps 2% or less of total at high
speed level flight and 0% in freefall dive. How large a factor is the same surface area
in parasite drag? If it were all that much then there would be no .89 or even .8 mach dives.

Spitfire is not overmodelled. No! All the LW planes are grossly undermodelled! They
should also be easy to fly, turn instantly, climb like rockets, etc, just as Spitfires
are claimed to again and again. That is the real problem for sure...
until the LW planes are clear winners they should all be given --more-- performance.

Why? Because that is how it is SUPPOSED to be. LW planes were clearly always superior
and it was only in 10:1 to 20:1 battles or when LW rookies were piloting that the Allies
had any chance at all! Or at least that is what I am lead to believe by some people.

So don't forget -- LW Always Superior -- Allied Always Inferior -- anything different
MUST BE WRONG!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

tomtheyak
06-11-2007, 11:40 AM
Biting my ******* tongue...

what a poor excuse for a troll.

Get a life or get on a server where tactics mean sumthin. Then bemoan Spits ease of handling, when you've got 109s and 190s blasting thru your defensive maneuvering and dominating you with an alt and energy advantage.

Talk about 1 dimensional, jeez.

VMF-214_HaVoK
06-11-2007, 11:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pollack2006:
You're comparing a non-cockpit arcade environment with real world aerial environments. Try a more realistic server and you'll discover the Spitfire isn't the wonder plane you think it is.

You'll also wonder how you ever called the P-47, 51 "loser planes". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif Please dont take this as offensive or any form of so called "elitism" but rather very good adivise which will eventually increase the level in which you enjoy this sim by 100%. Six years ago I thought along these ridiculous terms until I made the virtual leap to full difficulty servers and have not looked back.

S!

Kurfurst__
06-11-2007, 11:57 AM
It's quite simply, really. Most of the 'noob' people flying on dogfight servers know nothing about air combat tactics and little about planes. They just enter the furball and will turn, turn, turn so they will prefer planes that turn well. Because if both pilots just turn turn turn it's just the better turner that will win the fight. The Spits turn well and it's a famous, well known plane, so it's gonna be popular. It's nothing new, newbies alway pick the better turner plane : they picked the Yaks, I 16s, Lalas in the past, now they pick the Spits, Ki 84s 'cos they turn well. Turning is about the only thing in the repertoir in the noob, thus he will loose fights every time he will be in a say fast, but not so good turning plane. Most of the fights are 1 vs 1 : these again usually end up in turning contest. IRL there were always multiple planes and getting on the six of someone was not particularly difficult, especially as there was no 'cocpit off'.

Real air war was something different. Pilots were trained in both flying and tactics. Flying planes were much more difficult than here in the sim because of the real life physics, handling of the planes, and limitations of the human body. Maximum G-turns were excessively rare, and experienced pilots avoided it because they become slow and were simply shot down by those who stayed fast. Speed was of paramount importance, turn was not - otherwise the 'best' fighters of WW2 would have been biplanes.

DF servers are quite different then real world. Most pilots are noobs. They don't feel G forces, and the handling of the planes is much easier - compare 'driving' a car in a racing game and in real life... DF servers simply favour planes with which the most dumbest tactics will work vs. similiarly dumb tactics.

Different enviroment. It has nothing to do with the flight model, the Spit has a quite reasonable flight model with some of the usual imperfections of the sim itself, with it's weaknesses modelled just the same.

badatflyski
06-11-2007, 12:10 PM
YES,they are! It's the easiest plane in the game, at the same level as the LA7.
Some people don't like to call them NooB-planes, it's pejorative, i (and other people) like to call them "Nolicence-Planes".There is none axis fighter that has the abilities of the spitfire, you loose speed, simply put the nose down, in 1,just 1 second, you gain 10km/h Ias, do the same in any axis plane and you'll need 3or4 seconds for the same result, the pb in this plane that is it (almost)never loose energy(or recover the energy much too fast). Anyway this would be so much better if there was a blur vision (like the red and black out)if the pilot would turn continually (like the most do now) with 4or5 G's.With this simple feature, the spit would become a more "normal" plane.(see my sig for explaination)

LStarosta
06-11-2007, 12:19 PM
wow I can't believe that all you frickin knewbs fell for this. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

VMF-214_HaVoK
06-11-2007, 12:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">YES,they are! It's the easiest plane in the game, at the same level as the LA7. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? Almost all the fighters are that easy for me. Of course Im just that damn gooooood. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif I can smoke a Spit with a 109 for FW and vice versa as can many of the experienced here. Even a superior plane can not defeat a good tactical position entering the fight. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

VMF-214_HaVoK
06-11-2007, 12:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
wow I can't believe that all you frickin knewbs fell for this. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sometimes is just good ole fashion fun. Mmm I think.

MB_Avro_UK
06-11-2007, 12:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
It's quite simply, really. Most of the 'noob' people flying on dogfight servers know nothing about air combat tactics and little about planes. They just enter the furball and will turn, turn, turn so they will prefer planes that turn well. Because if both pilots just turn turn turn it's just the better turner that will win the fight. The Spits turn well and it's a famous, well known plane, so it's gonna be popular. It's nothing new, newbies alway pick the better turner plane : they picked the Yaks, I 16s, Lalas in the past, now they pick the Spits, Ki 84s 'cos they turn well. Turning is about the only thing in the repertoir in the noob, thus he will loose fights every time he will be in a say fast, but not so good turning plane. Most of the fights are 1 vs 1 : these again usually end up in turning contest. IRL there were always multiple planes and getting on the six of someone was not particularly difficult, especially as there was no 'cocpit off'.

Real air war was something different. Pilots were trained in both flying and tactics. Flying planes were much more difficult than here in the sim because of the real life physics, handling of the planes, and limitations of the human body. Maximum G-turns were excessively rare, and experienced pilots avoided it because they become slow and were simply shot down by those who stayed fast. Speed was of paramount importance, turn was not - otherwise the 'best' fighters of WW2 would have been biplanes.

DF servers are quite different then real world. Most pilots are noobs. They don't feel G forces, and the handling of the planes is much easier - compare 'driving' a car in a racing game and in real life... DF servers simply favour planes with which the most dumbest tactics will work vs. similiarly dumb tactics.

Different enviroment. It has nothing to do with the flight model, the Spit has a quite reasonable flight model with some of the usual imperfections of the sim itself, with it's weaknesses modelled just the same. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Good post Kurfurst...sums it up well.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro

VMF-214_HaVoK
06-11-2007, 12:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
It's quite simply, really. Most of the 'noob' people flying on dogfight servers know nothing about air combat tactics and little about planes. They just enter the furball and will turn, turn, turn so they will prefer planes that turn well. Because if both pilots just turn turn turn it's just the better turner that will win the fight. The Spits turn well and it's a famous, well known plane, so it's gonna be popular. It's nothing new, newbies alway pick the better turner plane : they picked the Yaks, I 16s, Lalas in the past, now they pick the Spits, Ki 84s 'cos they turn well. Turning is about the only thing in the repertoir in the noob, thus he will loose fights every time he will be in a say fast, but not so good turning plane. Most of the fights are 1 vs 1 : these again usually end up in turning contest. IRL there were always multiple planes and getting on the six of someone was not particularly difficult, especially as there was no 'cocpit off'.

Real air war was something different. Pilots were trained in both flying and tactics. Flying planes were much more difficult than here in the sim because of the real life physics, handling of the planes, and limitations of the human body. Maximum G-turns were excessively rare, and experienced pilots avoided it because they become slow and were simply shot down by those who stayed fast. Speed was of paramount importance, turn was not - otherwise the 'best' fighters of WW2 would have been biplanes.

DF servers are quite different then real world. Most pilots are noobs. They don't feel G forces, and the handling of the planes is much easier - compare 'driving' a car in a racing game and in real life... DF servers simply favour planes with which the most dumbest tactics will work vs. similiarly dumb tactics.

Different enviroment. It has nothing to do with the flight model, the Spit has a quite reasonable flight model with some of the usual imperfections of the sim itself, with it's weaknesses modelled just the same. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif 100%

Manu-6S
06-11-2007, 12:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tomtheyak:
Get a life or get on a server where tactics mean sumthin. Then bemoan Spits ease of handling, when you've got 109s and 190s blasting thru your defensive maneuvering and
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree 100% but..

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tomtheyak:
dominating you with an alt and energy advantage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL... and is this tactic??? How many times must repeat that every pilot should stay HIGH!!!

Spits haven't a brake that does not let them go higher than 1000m. Take that damned thing over 6000m and see how it rules: no, maybe you are not going to score more kills then flying lower BUT you are in the safest plane at that altitude.

Divine-Wind
06-11-2007, 12:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Manu-6S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tomtheyak:
dominating you with an alt and energy advantage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL... and is this tactic??? How many times must repeat that every pilot should stay HIGH!!!

Spits haven't a brake that does not let them go higher than 1000m. Take that damned thing over 6000m and see how it rules: no, maybe you are not going to score more kills then flying lower BUT you are in the safest plane at that altitude. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hehe, look at almost any ace, and you'll see that he stayed up high and used altitude and energy tactics to his advantage.

And anyone who calls the P-47 a loser plane should be castrated. If anything, the Thunderbolt takes a bit skill to fly. Try taking one up for a spin on a full-switch server and tell me it's for losers and n00bs.

Xiolablu3
06-11-2007, 01:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LStarosta:
wow I can't believe that all you frickin knewbs fell for this. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Sad to say this is the correct response.

Its a set up so that one forum member can reply to it.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Hydra454
06-11-2007, 01:25 PM
I don't seem to notice this supposed "superiority" of the Spit http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif I usual fly planes like the Ki-43 and A6M5b/c.Am I to believe that these are noob planes based simply because they turn well?Cause dogfigthing with these two planes takes alot more than mindlessly running around and turning http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
Spits have always seemed like easy pickings to me.

AKA_TAGERT
06-11-2007, 01:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Comrade_Sasha:
Thoughts? Comments? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://www.geocities.com/grantsenn/STFU/IDIOT/idiot.gif

VMF-214_HaVoK
06-11-2007, 02:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AKA_TAGERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Comrade_Sasha:
Thoughts? Comments? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://www.geocities.com/grantsenn/STFU/IDIOT/idiot.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

VW-IceFire
06-11-2007, 03:18 PM
I tried to fly the Spitfire in a fight the other day and I'm sad to say that I suck in it. Just isn't what I'm used to in fighters. Bring on the FW190!

Blood_Splat
06-11-2007, 03:22 PM
http://www.lachmeister.de/images/smilies/Sex/1162.gif

slappedsilly
06-11-2007, 03:37 PM
The spit was a great plane in the war and it is in the sim. It is easy to fly and get kills with (you think the brits did that on accident?) But with that said, I've shot down more spits than any other plane. I'd much rather have a spit after me that a 190!

faustnik
06-11-2007, 03:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I tried to fly the Spitfire in a fight the other day and I'm sad to say that I suck in it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's because the Fw190s you were fighting were probably cheaters. They probably used B&Z instead of turning in little circles. Not fair!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Divine-Wind
06-11-2007, 03:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blood_Splat:
http://www.lachmeister.de/images/smilies/Sex/1162.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That is the most f'ed up smiley I've ever seen.

Xiolablu3
06-11-2007, 04:00 PM
If you owned a Formula 1 car and your friend a boosted Rally car, you wouldnt make the choice to race him on a Dirt filled rally course would you?

If you have the faster plane (which you usually do vs a Spitfire), then YOU choose the circumstances of the battlefield.

Use your common sense people.

Divine-Wind
06-11-2007, 04:07 PM
Common sense? Are those pennies or pence?

tigertalon
06-11-2007, 04:12 PM
With every realistic option that is ticked off in the settings, TnB fighters profit a bit, and BnZ loose some. Fly on realistic settings without F6 (as far as I remember, they flew that way in WW2) and it's suddenly speed what matters, not agility (at least not that much). What cannot catch you cannot shoot you down, and vice versa, what you can catch, you can shoot down. Usually what you can catch, can't catch you. Speed is life.

Copperhead310th
06-11-2007, 09:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
It's quite simply, really. Most of the 'noob' people flying on dogfight servers know nothing about air combat tactics and little about planes. They just enter the furball and will turn, turn, turn so they will prefer planes that turn well. Because if both pilots just turn turn turn it's just the better turner that will win the fight. The Spits turn well and it's a famous, well known plane, so it's gonna be popular. It's nothing new, newbies alway pick the better turner plane : they picked the Yaks, I 16s, Lalas in the past, now they pick the Spits, Ki 84s 'cos they turn well. Turning is about the only thing in the repertoir in the noob, thus he will loose fights every time he will be in a say fast, but not so good turning plane. Most of the fights are 1 vs 1 : these again usually end up in turning contest. IRL there were always multiple planes and getting on the six of someone was not particularly difficult, especially as there was no 'cocpit off'.

Real air war was something different. Pilots were trained in both flying and tactics. Flying planes were much more difficult than here in the sim because of the real life physics, handling of the planes, and limitations of the human body. Maximum G-turns were excessively rare, and experienced pilots avoided it because they become slow and were simply shot down by those who stayed fast. Speed was of paramount importance, turn was not - otherwise the 'best' fighters of WW2 would have been biplanes.

DF servers are quite different then real world. Most pilots are noobs. They don't feel G forces, and the handling of the planes is much easier - compare 'driving' a car in a racing game and in real life... DF servers simply favour planes with which the most dumbest tactics will work vs. similiarly dumb tactics.

Different enviroment. It has nothing to do with the flight model, the Spit has a quite reasonable flight model with some of the usual imperfections of the sim itself, with it's weaknesses modelled just the same. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

FYI you Can automatically dismiss anything Kurfy says abd what you do listen to take with a grain of salt.
He has no idea wtf he's talking about. besigeds he's about as Axis biased as they come. and he's never spent all night flying anything but a damn Bf-109 or FW 190, or Some other german pile of junk. He couldn't fly a p-51 for 10 mins with out snaping the wings like twigs.

Cajun76
06-11-2007, 10:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
It's quite simply, really. Most of the 'noob' people flying on dogfight servers know nothing about air combat tactics and little about planes. They just enter the furball and will turn, turn, turn so they will prefer planes that turn well. Because if both pilots just turn turn turn it's just the better turner that will win the fight. The Spits turn well and it's a famous, well known plane, so it's gonna be popular. It's nothing new, newbies alway pick the better turner plane : they picked the Yaks, I 16s, Lalas in the past, now they pick the Spits, Ki 84s 'cos they turn well. Turning is about the only thing in the repertoir in the noob, thus he will loose fights every time he will be in a say fast, but not so good turning plane. Most of the fights are 1 vs 1 : these again usually end up in turning contest. IRL there were always multiple planes and getting on the six of someone was not particularly difficult, especially as there was no 'cocpit off'.

Real air war was something different. Pilots were trained in both flying and tactics. Flying planes were much more difficult than here in the sim because of the real life physics, handling of the planes, and limitations of the human body. Maximum G-turns were excessively rare, and experienced pilots avoided it because they become slow and were simply shot down by those who stayed fast. Speed was of paramount importance, turn was not - otherwise the 'best' fighters of WW2 would have been biplanes.

DF servers are quite different then real world. Most pilots are noobs. They don't feel G forces, and the handling of the planes is much easier - compare 'driving' a car in a racing game and in real life... DF servers simply favour planes with which the most dumbest tactics will work vs. similiarly dumb tactics.

Different enviroment. It has nothing to do with the flight model, the Spit has a quite reasonable flight model with some of the usual imperfections of the sim itself, with it's weaknesses modelled just the same. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

FYI you Can automatically dismiss anything Kurfy says abd what you do listen to take with a grain of salt.
He has no idea wtf he's talking about. besigeds he's about as Axis biased as they come. and he's never spent all night flying anything but a damn Bf-109 or FW 190, or Some other german pile of junk. He couldn't fly a p-51 for 10 mins with out snaping the wings like twigs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, that was one of the fairest, well written posts ever by Kurfurst. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif There are many times I might agree with some of what you posted Copperhead, but this ain't one of 'em. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

M_Gunz
06-11-2007, 10:20 PM
Copperhead, please show what Kurfurst posted there that is wrong.

That post is about as correct as it gets unless there's some special text my browser does not
show. I'm frankly AMAZED he posted it and perhaps someone else really did get to his account
or PC just to wank him off --- though perhaps the last bit is a setup with special implications.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">the Spit has a quite reasonable flight model with some of the usual imperfections of
the sim itself, with it's weaknesses modelled just the same. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can say that about almost every plane in the set. Quirks we got and mountains do get made
from mole hills as we've all seen but there is nothing like that in that post as it stands.

Just one question I have for you; did you read what he posted?

Xiolablu3
06-11-2007, 10:33 PM
The post by the alias known as 'Kurfurst' is sound.

Some would say the perfect answer to the original post. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Gumtree
06-11-2007, 10:33 PM
Whilst I would normally agree with you Copperhead I have to say that is one of the most balanced replies I have ever read from Kurfurst.

As to the troll who started this post, why do you guys encourage these clowns, we all know that the Gladiator is the most under modelled plane in the sim.

Sure it can turn but it has absolutely no zoom climb, I mean it should be able to turn with anything and out dive and climb a ME163, at least that's what I read in my old commando comics. :P

Xiolablu3
06-12-2007, 04:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Comrade_Sasha:
I prefer to challenge myself more in a 109 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

HellToupee
06-12-2007, 05:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Copperhead, please show what Kurfurst posted there that is wrong.

That post is about as correct as it gets unless there's some special text my browser does not
show. I'm frankly AMAZED he posted it and perhaps someone else really did get to his account
or PC just to wank him off --- though perhaps the last bit is a setup with special implications.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i think copperhead has been overcome with disbelief.

Or he just read as far as posted by.

I think its best to read the posts past the posted by point, cos u never know when kurfy will post something unbiased.

tigertalon
06-12-2007, 07:44 AM
Some people judge person by his words. Others judge words by person regardless of the meaning.

Daiichidoku
06-12-2007, 07:50 AM
musta been something in the water

it'll pass once it goes through his system


it WAS the kinda post that would garner K some real respect round here, if only he did it more than one out of 1000 posts

JG4_Helofly
06-12-2007, 07:58 AM
The spit is not a noob plane, it's a turn and burn plane like Kurfürst said. There is much more action in hard turn fights than in boom and zoom and that's why many player perfer the spit or la7,... .
A good pilot fatigue model would cool down a bit those 30 min over G fights we have now and make the fights much more realistic and interesting because you would have to think and fly with the brain.
Sometimes, it's frustrating when you dive on a target and he will simply pull a 6 G turn and he will do it every time you come back as long as it is necessary.

Then there is also the energy thing which has been discussed several times in this forum, but no one can proove that light planes have an advantage in this sim or not. Maybe Tagert can bring some light in the darkness with his energy tests. Someone posted a RL zoom test and maybe we will be able to find out how accurate il2 is in this area of the FM.

And I would not call a spit a noob plane because you are relativly slow compared to most enemys, you have not much ammo and the spit is very vulnerable in the engine compartment.

SlickStick
06-12-2007, 09:07 AM
Ah, the Spitfire...successor to the most beloved and most-hated plane before it's arrival, the La-5FN/La-7. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Not only is she pretty, she is easily the most versatile plane in the game. As I prefer a CW version usually, the full wing Spitfires can have the best of both worlds. They are phenomenal down low, with the Mk. VIII CW easily dominating the La-7 or the Ki-84 (two other "noob" planes mentioned in this thread), and up high, woe to the 109 or FW pilot that meets the savvy, experienced Spitfire pilot at co-altitude. Sure, she starts losing bits at just about anything over 760km/h in a dive, but in V4.08 her zoom climb is great and her speed at altitude is very competitive.

The best Spitfire pilots are also excellent energy fighters and know exactly when to B and Z and when it's time to out-turn the opponent for hte win!!!111!!!1

In my experience, on arcade, semi-arcade or all switches left servers, seven out of every ten 109 or FW pilots run screaming like little girls when they see a Mk. VIII or 25lbs Spitfire coming at them up high in a 1 vs 1 situation at co-altitude. I think they know something. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

My favorite part about the late Spitfires is the auto rads, auto supercharger, auto mix and the stigma of it being called a noob plane. The auto functions let me concentrate on dogfighting, while the noob stigma of the Spitfire gives my opponents a false sense of security that only changes to a harsh realization as they are plummeting towards the earth in a flaming wreck.

God bless the Spitfire. You do realize that it won the war, right?!? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Manu-6S
06-12-2007, 09:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG4_Helofly:
Then there is also the energy thing which has been discussed several times in this forum, but no one can proove that light planes have an advantage in this sim or not. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

An example is the old Lagg3...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG4_Helofly:
And I would not call a spit a noob plane because you are relativly slow compared to most enemys, you have not much ammo and the spit is very vulnerable in the engine compartment. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do instead: to fly spit you don't need to know about energy fighting (every fight IS a energy fight, every manouvre carries to losing or gaining energy).

The comments that I often listen in this board and in other places are that the poor spits are boomed by the evil energy fighters: who claims this don't know what SA is and that is the meaning of energy.

Simply flying a Spit you don't need to know that to be successful (in having fun).

I saw so many times guys who tried to fly other planes like spit and eventually die in the battle (quite often with 0 energy)

JG4_Helofly
06-12-2007, 09:42 AM
It's true that the spit is easy to fly because it turns very good, but it also stall without too much warnings. If your definition of "noob plane" is: easy to shoot down the enemy in a stall fight, than yes it is a noob plane, but you also die very quickly in this plane. Boom and Zoom planes live longer if flown like they should be flown.
So beginners will have success with the spit in shooting down ennemys, but they will also be shot down most time.

Manu-6S
06-12-2007, 10:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG4_Helofly:
It's true that the spit is easy to fly because it turns very good, but it also stall without too much warnings. If your definition of "noob plane" is: easy to shoot down the enemy in a stall fight, than yes it is a noob plane, but you also die very quickly in this plane. Boom and Zoom planes live longer if flown like they should be flown.
So beginners will have success with the spit in shooting down ennemys, but they will also be shot down most time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, totally agree... infact a great number of kills made by BnZ aces are noobs who's flying lower and don't look behind them, mostly by Drag n'Bag.

In BnZ you live more because you understand better what is a energy fight and a what is SA.

You HAVE to learn these to do well: an example is the noob vs noob fight.. logically the spit wins.

Spinning in a Spit for turning too hard is a beginner's error: after 2 hours a pilot understands.. I know people who fly spits since YEARS and spin in a bf109 (a week ago they tried to turn inside me in a Wildcat when I was flyng a Zero... and stalled).

But when the spit's guy really learn to fly... it's a real threat for all the other pilots.

It's slow, yes, but his turn skill at higher alt makes it safer.

Damn, probably this "noob thing" his the most frustrating thing about Spits...

Thinking that before this game I loved them...

HayateAce
06-12-2007, 11:03 AM
FaireyW@nk RunNineties cannot handle the Spitz.

Best accept that right now.

http://www.bibl.u-szeged.hu/bibl/mil/ww2/kepek/planes/pics/spitfire_3.jpg

SlickStick
06-12-2007, 11:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG4_Helofly:
Spit is very vulnerable in the engine compartment. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And how! One shot to engine usually equals black smoke, which will turn to fire in approximately 2 minutes or less and the Spitfire will explode within about 10-15 seconds or so after catching fire. As soon as I see the black smoke, I just bail these days. Spitfires most certainly do not like being pranged in the engine compartment. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Other times, it's a lucky (for me) hit and only grey smoke is coming out of the engine. I know I can continue to fight that way until I start to hear the sound of the engine starting to change, which will then lead to it getting "crunchy" as it begins the seizing process. From grey smoke to engine seizure is usually a good 5-10 minutes more of dogfighting, depending on how hard you have to ride her during that time.

As for ammo, more than plenty. Hispanos rock, but compared to the 20mm SHVAK laser beams and their now-missing tracers, they pale slightly in comparison. In most cases, just damaging a plane will net the points (provided no one else gets a piece before they land) and kill stats awarded upon their landing, if it's a Gennadich dedicated server that records pilot kill reflies and damaged landings. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Xiolablu3
06-12-2007, 11:08 AM
If Spitfires are good planes for noobs, then its correct with the real world plane.

'Childishly Simple to fly' was one Luftwaffe Officers comment. It was well known for being a great plane for novice pilots to learn in thanks to its great handling. Pilots who fly restored versions praise its fantastic flight characteristics - so it is with the game.

In the game :-

Spitfires are SPitfires, they are quite easily countered if you use your head.

When you see people having trouble versus Spitfires, just think 'Give them time, they will learn'. Sure they can be dangerous, but as they are usually much slower than any Axis plane, the Axis pilot has to make a mistake for the SPitfire to even get a shot at him.

If you hate Spitfires because you think they are 'overmodelled', or you are getting shot down a lot by SPitfires, then take a long hard look at your own flying.

SlickStick
06-12-2007, 11:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
If you hate Spitfires because you think they are 'overmodelled', or you are getting shot down a lot by Spitfires, then take a long hard look at your own flying. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said. They didn't yell "Achtung, Spitfire!!!" back in the days just to hear themselves yell. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Cajun76
06-12-2007, 12:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
If you hate Spitfires because you think they are 'overmodelled', or you are getting shot down a lot by Spitfires, then take a long hard look at your own flying. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said. They didn't yell "Achtung, Spitfire!!!" back in the days just to hear themselves yell. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed. Roughly translated from Focke Wulf pilots, it means: "Spitfire, easy kill!"

MrMojok
06-12-2007, 12:16 PM
Great posts by Kurfurst and MaxGunz on page one of the thread.

Max, all those points you make are good ones, and I'd like to add that Blue doesn't have a monopoly on that kind of A ssholery on these boards. There is Red contingent for whom each of your points applies 100% truthfully. One of them has posted in this thread.

Both sides have their fanatics who do it all the time.

SlickStick
06-12-2007, 12:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cajun76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
If you hate Spitfires because you think they are 'overmodelled', or you are getting shot down a lot by Spitfires, then take a long hard look at your own flying. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said. They didn't yell "Achtung, Spitfire!!!" back in the days just to hear themselves yell. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed. Roughly translated from Focke Wulf pilots, it means: "Spitfire, easy kill!" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

Manu-6S
06-12-2007, 12:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
If you hate Spitfires because you think they are 'overmodelled', or you are getting shot down a lot by Spitfires, then take a long hard look at your own flying. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hate spit's FM but I have not problem to fight with most of them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cajun76:
Indeed. Roughly translated from Focke Wulf pilots, it means: "Spitfire, easy kill!" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm a FW pilot... Spitfire are obviously a easy kill if you fly the FW190 the right way (and here we can open another threat, since people here look at sim FMs like they are a mirror of the RL) and above all if the Spit are improperly flyed (or do you really think that only bnz planes have a "right way"?).

Now keep a Spit at 6000m and tell me how long can you fight without dive away... maybe one pass because:

1- A spit at 6000 is piloted by a over-average pilot

2- it's fast almost like you

3- it needs only a little SA to turn and gaining advantage position.

But I want to point out the in RL alt performance were great for the Mk9, sure.

What I really hate is that you can make 2 passes on them even with 2000m of altitude advantage... they keep energy tooooo well. One pass with MkIX25lbs...

JG4_Helofly
06-12-2007, 01:01 PM
Manu, what you describe is a feeling about a plane keeping energy too good. I know what you are talking about because I am a 190 pilot, but There is no way to proove that it is wrong or right.
It feels like the spit retains energy better than most planes in il2, but it's a feeling and therefore not very usefull in finding the RL performance.
And maybe it was realy so good. Who knows?

Manu-6S
06-12-2007, 01:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG4_Helofly:
Manu, what you describe is a feeling about a plane keeping energy too good. I know what you are talking about because I am a 190 pilot, but There is no way to proove that it is wrong or right.
It feels like the spit retains energy better than most planes in il2, but it's a feeling and therefore not very usefull in finding the RL performance.
And maybe it was realy so good. Who knows? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif , No way to find out.

The only certain thing is that his enemies are lacking in something...

zunzun
06-12-2007, 01:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
It's quite simply, really. Most of the 'noob' people flying on dogfight servers know nothing about air combat tactics and little about planes. They just enter the furball and will turn, turn, turn so they will prefer planes that turn well. Because if both pilots just turn turn turn it's just the better turner that will win the fight. The Spits turn well and it's a famous, well known plane, so it's gonna be popular. It's nothing new, newbies alway pick the better turner plane : they picked the Yaks, I 16s, Lalas in the past, now they pick the Spits, Ki 84s 'cos they turn well. Turning is about the only thing in the repertoir in the noob, thus he will loose fights every time he will be in a say fast, but not so good turning plane. Most of the fights are 1 vs 1 : these again usually end up in turning contest. IRL there were always multiple planes and getting on the six of someone was not particularly difficult, especially as there was no 'cocpit off'.

Real air war was something different. Pilots were trained in both flying and tactics. Flying planes were much more difficult than here in the sim because of the real life physics, handling of the planes, and limitations of the human body. Maximum G-turns were excessively rare, and experienced pilots avoided it because they become slow and were simply shot down by those who stayed fast. Speed was of paramount importance, turn was not - otherwise the 'best' fighters of WW2 would have been biplanes.

DF servers are quite different then real world. Most pilots are noobs. They don't feel G forces, and the handling of the planes is much easier - compare 'driving' a car in a racing game and in real life... DF servers simply favour planes with which the most dumbest tactics will work vs. similiarly dumb tactics.

Different enviroment. It has nothing to do with the flight model, the Spit has a quite reasonable flight model with some of the usual imperfections of the sim itself, with it's weaknesses modelled just the same. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree 100%

Hawgdog
06-12-2007, 01:29 PM
The 25# spit isn't fast enough.
It should be able to catch everything in the game except that ruskie B6 and run them down and....I almost hate to suggest, but bigger more real life cannon type things in the front would be better too.

SlickStick
06-12-2007, 02:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hawgdog:
The 25# spit isn't fast enough.
It should be able to catch everything in the game except that ruskie B6 and run them down and....I almost hate to suggest, but bigger more real life cannon type things in the front would be better too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Hawggie, when fishing within a blatant fishing thread, one must be a bit more subtle, in order to gently shift the attention away from the original poster and thus defeat his original intent. Just saying....http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

With that said, we most certainly do need a 25lbs CW and a 4-Hispano Mk. VIII or IX. I'll take the XIV in lieu of those. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

SlickStick
06-12-2007, 03:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Divine-Wind:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blood_Splat:
http://www.lachmeister.de/images/smilies/Sex/1162.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That is the most f'ed up smiley I've ever seen. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm, interesting use of a smiley. I sense a possible vacation, if not, at least a stiff warning to the poster should be erected within this thread.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Brain32
06-12-2007, 05:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Other times, it's a lucky (for me) hit and only grey smoke is coming out of the engine. I know I can continue to fight... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ahh you mean "Airshow smoke" or "Puff the magic dragon" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Comrade_Sasha
06-12-2007, 05:19 PM
Okay, okay- so shoot me; I should have known my original post was destined to set of a veritable firestorm of commentary. But then, I asked for it, didn't I?

As for comment about the P-51, P-47, and the like being 'loser' planes-- this was not meant that those planes in themselves were losers- not at all. I meant to tie that observation in with the Spitfire comments meaning that the majority of the time I've spent in-game (and much of this is on the 334th server) it seems that regardless of is available the greater portion of players will choose Spits of some ilk and whoever is flying anything other than that is in for a beating- and this includes those guys flying those very P-51's and P-47's I mentioned.

I certainly accept the fair comment that I need to look at my own flying- I'm still relatively new to this and freely admit I am not a steely-eyed fighter jock like some out there. However, I think I'm at least competent and not entirely a menace to myself in the virtual air.

I suppose part of the problem (read: MY problem) is that all too often I think in terms of 'team' as opposed to 'lone wolf'; and all too often I'll be in the middle of things- in perfectly plain view- and have to make an exit from being run down by multiple (you guessed it) Spits...and does anyone bother to even give chase half the time and lend a hand? Not! If I see someone being chased, I have no hesitation in trying to clear his six- not necessarily for point's sake, but for the fight's sake.

Okay, so perhaps my comments on Spits were overly harsh- certainly they are deadly in the hands of experienced pilots- but I do think they are somewhat over-represented at the very least. Quite a few I've flown with decry the 'Lerch' in jet servers- that's how I feel about Spits...they just seem to be too good, even in nOOb hands, for the average opponent who is flying *anything else*.

SlickStick
06-12-2007, 05:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Other times, it's a lucky (for me) hit and only grey smoke is coming out of the engine. I know I can continue to fight... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ahh you mean "Airshow smoke" or "Puff the magic dragon" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only "Puff the Magic Dragon" in my pit, is of the left-handed variety. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

However, engines much like electronics, have a tendency to stop working once you let the magic smoke out. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/typing.gif

ojcar1971
06-12-2007, 05:46 PM
Yes, you know, those guys: Sailor Malan, Douglas Bader, Johnnie Johnson, Ginger Lacey, Stanislaw Skalski, Eugeniusz Horbaczewski, etc. They were all noobs.
Come on, boys! In real life do you like a plane difficult to fly because it's cooler, or do you like an easy to fly plane to keep yourself alive?
Spitfire is great because can be both a dogfighter and a boom and zoomer. Different tactics for different moments. This help you to survive. Survival is the most important thing for a soldier.
There aren't noob planes, only noob pilots.

MrMojok
06-12-2007, 05:49 PM
That's it, I'm done with the P-51, 109, and 190. I'm converting to the Spit.

ImpStarDuece
06-12-2007, 06:53 PM
My K to D ratio is about 4 times higher in FW-190s than it is in Spitfires.

Do I suck in Spits? A little. My gunnery is worse (5-8% accuracy in Spits, 7-12% accuracy in 190s) and I tend to go a little stupid in Spitfires.

As I have the option of turning and/or going sustained vertical, I get more agressive, get sloppy and usually end up slow and low. Once slow, a Spitfire is easy pickings to any drive-by 4 cannon 190 or 30mm armed 109. Like plucking the wings off a butterfly, you can kill something beautiful.

In 190s, I pick my targets more clincally, dive, shoot, recover, and repeat. I stay in the vertical plane, avoid flat turns, and try to maximise my speed advantages.

Different mind sets, different aircraft, different results.

If I flew the Spitfire like I flew the 190, I would probably be more sucessful than if I continued my turn-n-burn madness ("I turn and then I burn").

But I don't, because sometimes its just as much fun to be running turn and angels fights in the weeds, as it is to be doing energy management jousting at 15,000 feet.

Xiolablu3
06-12-2007, 10:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
My K to D ratio is about 4 times higher in FW-190s than it is in Spitfires.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Agreed. Whatever the opinions of the louder members of the forum. The skilled pilots always seem to do much, much better in the FW190 than the Spitfire.


Its why when I see someone moaning about the Spitfire model, that the first thing that goes through my mind is 'hmmm they are probably just not a very good pilot'

M_Gunz
06-12-2007, 11:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG4_Helofly:
Then there is also the energy thing which has been discussed several times in this forum, but no one can proove that light planes have an advantage in this sim or not. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If weight was the only factor it would be simple to do but it's not so any serious looking on
that basis alone will yield contradicting results.

We have had Crumpp, Ugly Kid, Viper, Non-Wonder Dog, and a few others trained in these matters
tell time and time again what factors matter and then say they don't have the data to do exact
calculations. Crumpp showed how some IF's would affect such calculations and wouldn't you know
that someone took his IF's as TRUE's... and I don't see Crumpp here even before that. The
insults are bad enough but why waste time on those who don't learn and use your material in
ways that amount to abuse.

M_Gunz
06-12-2007, 11:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MrMojok:
I'd like to add that Blue doesn't have a monopoly on that kind of A ssholery on these boards. There is Red contingent for whom each of your points applies 100% truthfully. One of them has posted in this thread.

Both sides have their fanatics who do it all the time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree Totally! In fact the #1 Red Whacko posted his usual non-informative troll and pointless
bandwidth sucking picture... Hayate-Ace(hole) himself!

M_Gunz
06-12-2007, 11:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Its why when I see someone moaning about the Spitfire model, that the first thing that goes through my mind is 'hmmm they are probably just not a very good pilot' </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Depending on how they write the whine I either think that or 'hmmmm, they are pushing an agenda'.

M_Gunz
06-13-2007, 12:01 AM
Why do some people think that a hard turn made at over 600kph will match the same G's turn
made at 400kph?

Or at least that is what I wonder when I read some posts in the past. When "feeling" is based
on less than full data then check the feeling most carefully before shouting accusation. Who
here really thinks that Oleg on purpose ubered the Spitfires?

Manu-6S
06-13-2007, 12:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
My K to D ratio is about 4 times higher in FW-190s than it is in Spitfires.

Do I suck in Spits? A little. My gunnery is worse (5-8% accuracy in Spits, 7-12% accuracy in 190s) and I tend to go a little stupid in Spitfires.

As I have the option of turning and/or going sustained vertical, I get more agressive, get sloppy and usually end up slow and low. Once slow, a Spitfire is easy pickings to any drive-by 4 cannon 190 or 30mm armed 109. Like plucking the wings off a butterfly, you can kill something beautiful.

In 190s, I pick my targets more clincally, dive, shoot, recover, and repeat. I stay in the vertical plane, avoid flat turns, and try to maximise my speed advantages.

Different mind sets, different aircraft, different results.

If I flew the Spitfire like I flew the 190, I would probably be more sucessful than if I continued my turn-n-burn madness ("I turn and then I burn").

But I don't, because sometimes its just as much fun to be running turn and angels fights in the weeds, as it is to be doing energy management jousting at 15,000 feet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

It's my feeling too.

In a Spit you feel so "powerful" that you forget SA and energy management... finding yourself low and quite slow. I remember one of my teammates who took the spit in one mission: he said "I feel like God in this plane"

In FW190 instead, maybe for the crappy low speed acceleration , you concentrate on being fast... and after this you search for the prey (usually one of the spit above)

Manu-6S
06-13-2007, 01:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Why do some people think that a hard turn made at over 600kph will match the same G's turn
made at 400kph?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who is thinking that?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Or at least that is what I wonder when I read some posts in the past. When "feeling" is based
on less than full data then check the feeling most carefully before shouting accusation. Who
here really thinks that Oleg on purpose ubered the Spitfires? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't the historical "easy to fly" a feeling?
Isn't the "great energy retention" a feeling? Why should feeling be ok for spit and not for others?

Ah no... the feeling of high speed elevator stiffness in bf109 is modelled, but at the lower speed accounted...

I don't think Oleg overmodelled the Spit on purpose (no more that the P39): I think our spit is a compromise in the game engine, engine that has limitations.

Only I don't understand why it's FM has not flaws (and some real flaws were ignored) while the other planes have a lot... above all P38 and german planes (except Dora maybe).

Gumtree
06-13-2007, 01:16 AM
I wanted to make a comment on E retention and the claims of the Spit having to much of this.

I have read extensively about WW2 air combat as it is a passion of mine and in one of the allied books (I think it was Pete Townsend's Nine Lives) he makes the claim that the Spitfire was notorious for holding Energy and caused some 'prangs' by novice pilots crashing into others due to forgetting just how much the Spit kept energy.

In the book he claimed a junior pilot crashed into the squadron leader during a mock dogfight through forgetting about the Spits legendary E retention. Apparently this was one of the biggest obstacles to learning to dogfight the Spit well.

Now lets get this straight, I am not claiming from this alone that all the claims of wrong FM are incorrect, but just, maybe the Spit did hold more energy than other planes, at least that is what a high scoring experienced allied pilot claimed in his memoirs, granted he would have made the claim against only the planes the allied flew I suppose.

I for one am not going to get into a debate on the rights and wrongs of the FM but rather I read the facts from the guys that actually flew the things, then make an informed judgement. (I hope) at the end of all the research I get on-line and go and play the best flight sim I have seen so far full stop.

Bartolomeo_ita
06-13-2007, 02:18 AM
spits are not for noobs! they are for cheaters http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

M_Gunz
06-13-2007, 02:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Manu-6S:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Why do some people think that a hard turn made at over 600kph will match the same G's turn
made at 400kph?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who is thinking that? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For over 5 years I see posts that amount to that. More, far more in the first years.

If I mean YOU then I say YOU. I did not say YOU. And you know I would!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Or at least that is what I wonder when I read some posts in the past. When "feeling" is based
on less than full data then check the feeling most carefully before shouting accusation. Who
here really thinks that Oleg on purpose ubered the Spitfires? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't the historical "easy to fly" a feeling?
Isn't the "great energy retention" a feeling? Why should feeling be ok for spit and not for others? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How you know the feel of Spitfire is there just so and not for others?
We are flying a simulation with no bodily feel of movement. We get grey-out and blackout and
we have modeled pilot with strength limit BUT also ability to trim elevator (a real ability).

You know that Oleg has flown at least a replica Bf 109? I read his resume at one old site and
find he was once also flying aircraft tests as part or all of his work. He is also an aero
engineer and has others who were at Sukhoi even to being part of team of Sukhoi aerobatics
plane to appear in SOW:BoB working with him? Or that IL2 4.x FM was testbed for SOW FM which
those real experts believe what we have is very close to real?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ah no... the feeling of high speed elevator stiffness in bf109 is modelled, but at the lower speed accounted... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Problem of charts where test pilots were able to use more than 22kg strength on stick.
It is simple really to use trim to extend range of pull and used IRL in history not only for
emergencies but at least on some planes as pilot strain relief even during combat. I can
direct you to a web page with complete explanation from a man who was there and did that and
by words it was common. But then US pilots did fly long and often hard and needed to conserve
strength/endurance. So please, trim is not cheat.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I don't think Oleg overmodelled the Spit on purpose (no more that the P39): I think our spit is a compromise in the game engine, engine that has limitations. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ever lose wings in P-51?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Only I don't understand why it's FM has not flaws (and some real flaws were ignored) while the other planes have a lot... above all P38 and german planes (except Dora maybe). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know if it is a flaw but I have a very hard time keeping Spitfires, the IX's especially,
in coordinated flight through weaving turns. The slip indicator is not a ball but rather a
needle sharing space with the turn needle and both are way down on the right side of the
front instrument panel. To shoot with slip spoils the accuracy of the shot. The torque
of those and Spit VB LF is wicked on the flight of the plane and I am not sure how good the
guage is at all.

Just trim your 109 to the speed you will end up your have-to-have hard turn in and then
use your stick to keep the nose down in your dive. You will be able to turn to blackout
easily enough.

Feel in a PC flight sim is a learned thing.

ojcar1971
06-13-2007, 03:54 AM
Someone said that good pilots do better in FW-190 than Spitfires, because they feel too powerful and became over confident. If so, if they became over confident, they aren't so good pilots. It's simply that Fw fits more their style.
Spitfire aren't the masters of dogfight (a Zero or Ki-43 will eat you) nor boom and zoom (Fw or P-47 excelled). They are simply a well balanced plane and you can vary your tactics. Fw and Ki-43 are one trick ponies.

stathem
06-13-2007, 04:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ojcar1971:
Someone said that good pilots do better in FW-190 than Spitfires, because they feel too powerful and became over confident. If so, if they became over confident, they aren't so good pilots. It's simply that Fw fits more their style.
Spitfire aren't the masters of dogfight (a Zero or Ki-43 will eat you) nor boom and zoom (Fw or P-47 excelled). They are simply a well balanced plane and you can vary your tactics. Fw and Ki-43 are one trick ponies. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here, I've got something for you:

http://www.chicagoprotective.com/firesuit.jpg

Xiolablu3
06-13-2007, 04:01 AM
Of course the Spitfires got flaws, its speed is one biiiig flaw. Yes the Mk14 solved the slow speed problem using brute force with the Griffon engine, but there were very few of those built.


A VERY simplified view of why the Spitfire is so nice in its handling :-


If you want to go really really fast in a plane, you want to have little wings compared to the size of the plane, so that you can be shaped more like a dart or bullet.

HOWEVER - the smaller the wings, the more unstable in flight your plane will be, ESPECIALLY in hard manouvres and turns ala FW190 and most other planes to an extent when compared to the Spitfire.

The two extremes :-

Spitfire = MAssive wing area, very low wing loading = SLow top speed, but God Like flight characteristics.

FW190 = Small stubby wings = God Like top speed, very high wingloading, very poor turner and can be temperamental in manouvres.

Most other modern warplans in WW2 fit somewhere in between these 2 extremes, with the Zero/Bf109 being close to the Spitfire and the P51/Tempest being close to the FW190..

SOme planes have 'Aerodynamic Band Aids' like slats or folwer flaps, like the Bf109 or P38 which can help to counteract bad characteristics or flaws in the design.

HuninMunin
06-13-2007, 04:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
I tried to fly the Spitfire in a fight the other day and I'm sad to say that I suck in it. Just isn't what I'm used to in fighters. Bring on the FW190! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Everytime I fly red and try the Spit I start to feel n00bish - not because it's a clownwagon but because I crash at takeoff http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif.
Man...the first time it happened it must have been the first crash for about 3 years of flying.
I remember just sitting here ( completely stunned) and staring at the screen. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

tomtheyak
06-13-2007, 04:35 AM
I dunno if it makes any difference to how what I say is interpreted, but my online flying alias is [BD]FENRIR; I fly almost exclusively on Spits Vs. 109s and I fly red, mainly spits. For those here who know of me, I feel I am qualified to speak of the Spits strengths and weaknesses in the full switch environment.

It is my opinion that since 4.07/8 in particular 109s and 190s seem to benefit from zoom climb and vertical energy advantages; this is IMHO is how it should be.

I have found when engaging a similar E state 109 or 190 that if we both pull into a zoom climb after the merge they can often gain a slight alt advantage and if the pilot is good can monopolise on this. After that I'm stuck in the BnZ zone, breaking and bleeding hard to recover speed at his every pass. It's a difficult cycle to break out of, if at all. Most of the time I half roll and dive out of the way (giving him yet more height advantage) and look for clouds, friendlies or the nearest friendly flak concentration - its very frustrating I assure you!

E retention advantages in the Spit are I feel not as overwhelming as in the past - though still dangerous. But then the Luftwaffe knew that in WW2 also.

IMO if you're moaning about the turn ability of the Spit you've got as much basis for arguement as if you were complaining about getting shot down by a guy who had an altitude advantage when you entered the fight; you might as well drop your trousers and bend over! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Engage on your terms not his.

Fw and 109s are dangerous when well flown. Fact.

Henkie327
06-13-2007, 04:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ojcar1971:
Someone said that good pilots do better in FW-190 than Spitfires, because they feel too powerful and became over confident. If so, if they became over confident, they aren't so good pilots. It's simply that Fw fits more their style.
Spitfire aren't the masters of dogfight (a Zero or Ki-43 will eat you) nor boom and zoom (Fw or P-47 excelled). They are simply a well balanced plane and you can vary your tactics. Fw and Ki-43 are one trick ponies. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here, I've got something for you:

http://www.chicagoprotective.com/firesuit.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

why?

It's all correct what ojcar wrote. 190 is very limited, pure BnZ, but very good in that.

With the Spitfire you can choose how to fight depending on the situation and what kind of planes you have to fight. Your choices are not limited to pure BnZ or pure turn and burn. And while the spitfire is just not the best in both, I like the versatility.

stathem
06-13-2007, 04:40 AM
I know that and agree with Ojcar's points. But comments that can be perceived as an insult to the FW can often lead to robust responses.

carguy_
06-13-2007, 04:46 AM
The only problem about the Spitfire is not that it`s better tha anything else in T&Bing but that it is on par with anything else in B&Z besides the mark V.

There is no runing,climbing,diving,rolling,turning away from this plane.

The only way to beat the Spit IX is maintainging 2000m alt advantage or getting numerical superiority.That can be done by almost any plane in the game.

tomtheyak
06-13-2007, 04:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
I know that and agree with Ojcar's points. But comments that can be perceived as an insult to the FW can often lead to robust responses. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why should we Spit drivers have it any different?

I don't take it to insult Fw drivers for choosing an aircarft with massive firepower; nor do I attack 109 drivers who choose to outclimb/outdive me. Zero pilots seem free from critique, so why the he11 should I have to put up with my manhood and piloting skill being attacked at every turn by, what I can only percieve as, ignorami and indferiority complex sufferers?

To fly a Fw or 109 well takes skill and discipline; but to fight and, even more importantly, survive in any other a/c, including Spits also takes a skillful hand behind the controls.

To the blue drivers who complain remember this; you wanna bask in the glow of self-congratulation of how much better you are than spit pilots? Yet you seemingly want to castrate the Spitfire of ANY advantages whilst maximising your own?

That smells like double-standards

Brain32
06-13-2007, 05:16 AM
Maybe some of you noticed, maybe you did not, that my Spitfire bashing reduced after v407. The main reason is that new stick routines slightly reduced that old spitty insta-break that was unbelievably irritating and now is bareable. What is left that is still a BS:
1. - It has a huge overheat bug, the overheat message keeps resseting and thus, effectively, you can run a Spit at full power forever
2. - Not only that, but that thing can sustain max or very close to max speed using only 85% of power. This looks like indication of artificial excess power to me.
3. - Maybe the worst of all, frontally against the ground they are nearly God damn invisible, hundreds of times, I was checking my six only to see tracers coming out of thin air!!! Well not, it was a Spitfire there that's VERY annoying.

As for K/D, I always kicked @ss with the Spits, even to the point where it was on the edge of being fun. Who knows, maybe you really need to be really good to understand what can the Spit do http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

ploughman
06-13-2007, 05:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">1. - It has a huge overheat bug, the overheat message keeps resseting and thus, effectively, you can run a Spit at full power forever </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Maybe at 6,000m but not at SL, there it's about 14 minutes before you're flying a glider. That's 4.08m.

M_Gunz
06-13-2007, 06:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
2. - Not only that, but that thing can sustain max or very close to max speed using only 85% of power. This looks like indication of artificial excess power to me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So at 85% power you push to 110% and only gain a tiny bit of speed?

ojcar1971
06-13-2007, 06:26 AM
Logical thinking:
-Plane A is UBER plane for noobs
-Plane B is a challenging plane made only for aces like me.
-Try to ride plane A and have worst results that in plane B
Conclusion: Plane A is not so UBER.
Not trying to offend someone... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Henkie327
06-13-2007, 06:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
I know that and agree with Ojcar's points. But comments that can be perceived as an insult to the FW can often lead to robust responses. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

haha I see http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Yes the most "ace" 190 players are too touchy especially when they get pinged in the wing by a noob in a spitfire. It's common http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

So maybe the FW is for snobs? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

i200th_Sakagawa
06-13-2007, 06:40 AM
for me now there is no difference between la7 and spit VIII or IX.From books whitch i read it was difficoult to fly in spit in real life it wasnt super easy plane like in game now.shame now its soo easy to fly.

Brain32
06-13-2007, 06:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
2. - Not only that, but that thing can sustain max or very close to max speed using only 85% of power. This looks like indication of artificial excess power to me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So at 85% power you push to 110% and only gain a tiny bit of speed? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
How does 5-6kmh sound? Maybe even less...need to check again.

Xiolablu3
06-13-2007, 06:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by i200th_Sakagawa:
for me now there is no difference between la7 and spit VIII or IX.From books whitch i read it was difficoult to fly in spit in real life it wasnt super easy plane like in game now.shame now its soo easy to fly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Geez, what books have you been reading?

Its a well known fact that the Spitfire was extremely noob friendly.

I suggest you throw away your books on the Spitfire and buy some new ones...


Werner Molders for example could hardly believe how "childishly simple" the Spitfire was to fly.

stathem
06-13-2007, 06:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
2. - Not only that, but that thing can sustain max or very close to max speed using only 85% of power. This looks like indication of artificial excess power to me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So at 85% power you push to 110% and only gain a tiny bit of speed? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
How does 5-6kmh sound? Maybe even less...need to check again. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brain, when you check again, can you add in an extra test.

Do your test as normal, then uncouple the PP ann throttle (AutoPP off) and try it again at 85% throttle, 100% PP.

Brain32
06-13-2007, 06:53 AM
Will do http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Manu-6S
06-13-2007, 07:16 AM
@Xiola:

I'm talking about ingame flaws compared to RL http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ojcar1971:
Logical thinking:
-Plane A is UBER plane for noobs
-Plane B is a challenging plane made only for aces like me.
-Try to ride plane A and have worst results that in plane B
Conclusion: Plane A is not so UBER.
Not trying to offend someone... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I died (some time ago) more frequently in the Spit than in FW190... maybe after my 3rd/4th kill in that sortie http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
3. - Maybe the worst of all, frontally against the ground they are nearly God damn invisible, hundreds of times, I was checking my six only to see tracers coming out of thin air!!! Well not, it was a Spitfire there that's VERY annoying.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree... it has not LOD problems caused from an old model... or maybe not? ju88s are new models but seem to be with light on from 4000m...

@ Tom/Fenrir

You know how much I respect you as spit pilot.

Do you remember that dog between you and 4 FW190 of my squad?
20 minutes to bring you down IIRC... You was at 6500m but alone... I quick said that if you were not alone we would leave the fight soon, and that if all spit pilots fly like you there was no match for blue side.

Nobody here said nothing about turn advantage of spits: his turn rate is perfect accordly the TSAGI test...

I want to reply to your statement about the zoom skill of 109 and 190 compared to the spit's one.
Yes, 109 and 190 go higher BUT do we want to speak about low speed manouvrability?

Quite often I zoom and at last of the candle I start to put down my nose to recatch speed (energy); the spit is under me but it gain manouvrability faster than me... and I became a prey since he can shot at me and if it stalls it AUTORECOVER in 500m.

You for you to know I use this stall tactic against Hurricane and P40 and any other not pure "BnZer" (even if P40 is a great one) and it work always except against the spit.



PS: I FEEL Zero very different from spit, since it can't regain energy so fast and his dive and armour problems make it more "human machine".

Brain32
06-13-2007, 07:22 AM
OK, I just did a test with SpitMkIXe, first I accelerated at full power to see max. speed - it was 533kmh at 10m altitude, then I droped throtthle to 85% and speed settled at 527kmh, so the loss was only 6kmh. Strange at the very least http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

@Stathem I tried overriding auto pp and run with 100%pp at 85% throtthle, however the speed dropped from 527kmh to 526kmh.

BTW, P51D has same engine as SpitMkIXe right?

Tailbutcher
06-13-2007, 07:24 AM
I like the way a Spit goes BBOOOOOM, right after a good burst from my FW http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Hawgdog
06-13-2007, 07:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Mr. Hawggie, when fishing within a blatant fishing thread, one must be a bit more subtle, in order to gently shift the attention away from the original poster and thus defeat his original intent. Just saying....http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

With that said, we most certainly do need a 25lbs CW and a 4-Hispano Mk. VIII or IX. I'll take the XIV in lieu of those. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I think you should crack the canopy a tad and let some fresh air in http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
First you say my thread was hijacking troll, then you agreed, right?
A simple +1 with extra points for humor would have done well. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

SlickStick
06-13-2007, 08:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hawgdog:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Mr. Hawggie, when fishing within a blatant fishing thread, one must be a bit more subtle, in order to gently shift the attention away from the original poster and thus defeat his original intent. Just saying....http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

With that said, we most certainly do need a 25lbs CW and a 4-Hispano Mk. VIII or IX. I'll take the XIV in lieu of those. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I think you should crack the canopy a tad and let some fresh air in http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
First you say my thread was hijacking troll, then you agreed, right?
A simple +1 with extra points for humor would have done well. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif It's no fun if I have to explain it.

Your Hawgness, you're still like a bull in a China shop. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

Xiolablu3
06-13-2007, 01:02 PM
I know I am repeating myself, but....

I love BF109F4 vs SPitfire Vc2/Vc4 battles.

I prefer the 109F4, but I dont mind flying the Spits if Red needs players.

One of the best matchups in the game. One fighting mostly on the horizontal and the Bf109 mostly in the vertical, but both are quite good in all manouvres...

VMF-214_HaVoK
06-13-2007, 04:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
The only problem about the Spitfire is not that it`s better tha anything else in T&Bing but that it is on par with anything else in B&Z besides the mark V.

There is no runing,climbing,diving,rolling,turning away from this plane.

The only way to beat the Spit IX is maintainging 2000m alt advantage or getting numerical superiority.That can be done by almost any plane in the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hit the brakes and they fly right by. Use the 109s awesome acceleration to pursue and destroy. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

VMF-214_HaVoK
06-13-2007, 04:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I love BF109F4 vs SPitfire Vc2/Vc4 battles. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One of the best match ups in the sim be sure. I prefer the 109 in this fight hands down.

S!

M_Gunz
06-13-2007, 10:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
Do your test as normal, then uncouple the PP ann throttle (AutoPP off) and try it again at 85% throttle, 100% PP. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't do much anything with Spits but you do that with, for Allied-CSP for instance, P-51,
then you will lose speed as opposed to lower PP to match lower throttle. To me that would
be poor piloting. I fly manual PP always except -sometimes- in 109. I fly 109 like I drove
my old VW's, by tachometer/ear. I just wish those had 5-speed trannies.

MB80
06-14-2007, 12:34 AM
It's a noob plane http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Not because of the maneuverability or the guns, but it's the one and only plane with a good seat armor, has the best working radiator, flaps which can't be damaged if you use them at full speed, you can start the spit with one front wheel and wingtip without problems, the damage modell is great because just a dewing or pilot hit is a kill, and at least, there's the "you won't see me" bug (while a lot of other planes are a small black dot, you can't see the spit).

ploughman
06-14-2007, 03:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB80:
It's a noob plane http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Not because of the maneuverability or the guns, but it's the one and only plane with a good seat armor, has the best working radiator, flaps which can't be damaged if you use them at full speed, you can start the spit with one front wheel and wingtip without problems, the damage modell is great because just a dewing or pilot hit is a kill, and at least, there's the "you won't see me" bug (while a lot of other planes are a small black dot, you can't see the spit). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Except, by definition, a n00b isn't going to know all that, ergo - not a n00b plane on the grounds you suggest. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Curious though, what do you mean by "you can start the spit with one front wheel and wingtip without problems?"

M_Gunz
06-14-2007, 08:23 AM
Spitfire is very good plane. Late models are like the Fokker DVII of WWII. Not the fastest,
not the best turning or best climbing but very good at ALL of those and easier to fly than most.

If your flying and tactics are well suited to it yet for some reason you have to love some other
plane then you're going to be just a bit upset and many upset people lash out and blame others
hence the name calling and exaggerations that accompany every thread where the word Spitfire is
even mentioned.

OTOH, some people just get pwned.........

Manu-6S
06-14-2007, 09:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
If your flying and tactics are well suited to it yet for some reason you have to love some other
plane then you're going to be just a bit upset and many upset people lash out and blame others
hence the name calling and exaggerations that accompany every thread where the word Spitfire is
even mentioned. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ehm.. if you are referring to me because my sign, I remember that one guy (quite stupid) said I was an P51 hater in a thread where I was just appreciating the P51 only because of my avatar (sarcasm about GWB).

Signatures means nothing: as I said before I was in love with Spitfire since child and still I'm... but here we are talking about a game (or you you prefer a good sim, even if far from perfect).

Oh, by the way I'm thinking to use only spifire in the next 2 months http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

gkll
06-14-2007, 05:43 PM
I second or third some of the comments I read here... our sim world favors different characteristics than RL did, mainly. And we get so 'honed' on tactics and particular aircraft,a 1 second difference in sustained turn can be turned into victory, would have only rarely happened this way in RL.

Spit was a good sound RL aircraft, its strong points line up almost exactly with what works best on more relaxed server settings.

E retention comes under fire, so do rads, however I have yet to see anything particular to refute either game interpretation with RL data. Excellent power loading, wingloading, Oswald factor, and big honking draggy rads (that hurt top end), seems about right to me. And for sure on K's comment that RL piloting is about as similar to il2 as racing real cars is to a racing sim... agree there is a lot of difference, and this leads to a 'tighter' band of pilot performance in-game, we can all (mostly anyways...) get the max out of our rides. Makes a difference.

Anyways the spit is the classic "I hate it" plane going back any number of sims, is it not? Nothing new here, the numbers, even the most basic ones (powerloading, lift loading) show it as a pretty good plane. Nothing to see here.

PS agree totally that Oleg probably bent things a touch against the spit, not for. His record on the Brit stuff is perhaps a touch off (lo-boost Tempest, old slow Mosquito, 25 lber long delayed, many missing aircraft.... not all his fault but interesting nonetheless), and anyways it knocked the La7 off the top bird perch, the physics must have been compelling. Ill look again, but either the the La7 got some turn back or the spit was downgraded, il2compare version 4.05 compared to 4.08 shows the two MUCH closer in 4.08... just a hasty look though.

S! all

M_Gunz
06-14-2007, 08:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gkll:
we can all (mostly anyways...) get the max out of our rides. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't agree with that. There are less people crying about bleeding in stalls but we get them.
And who that gets the max out of their ride pulls into stall?

There's also the occasional person that doesn't ever check the ball or use rudder either much or
with much degree of control. And loads of people who don't know why they miss when the target
is right in their sights.

I liked the rest pretty much tho.

M_Gunz
06-14-2007, 09:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Manu-6S:
Ehm.. if you are referring to me because my sign, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, that was just a general observation from years on this forum and others, but esp this one.

Why you so jumpy? You feel guilty about something or just paranoid? You maybe smoking hashish?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

na85
06-14-2007, 09:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB80:

it's the one and only plane with a good seat armor </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

P47 has great seat armor

gkll
06-14-2007, 11:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gkll:
we can all (mostly anyways...) get the max out of our rides. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't agree with that. There are less people crying about bleeding in stalls but we get them.
And who that gets the max out of their ride pulls into stall?

There's also the occasional person that doesn't ever check the ball or use rudder either much or
with much degree of control. And loads of people who don't know why they miss when the target
is right in their sights.

I liked the rest pretty much tho. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure but RL newbs were white faced and puffing with terror as they struggled to comprehend why they were about to die. &lt;Our&gt; newbs can still bite and will, without fear of stall or death... so the plane performance is maybe more important than it was in RL? That was the point.

Generally you are right though I stretched it a little to make a point....

Manu-6S
06-15-2007, 12:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
No, that was just a general observation from years on this forum and others, but esp this one.

Why you so jumpy? You feel guilty about something or just paranoid? You maybe smoking hashish?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I feel guilty about my sign http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Cajun76
06-15-2007, 01:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by na85:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB80:

it's the one and only plane with a good seat armor </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

P47 has great seat armor </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It starts at the rudder.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

carguy_
06-15-2007, 04:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
Hit the brakes and they fly right by. Use the 109s awesome acceleration to pursue and destroy. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is that a joke?A half brained Spit pilot makes a yoyo in this particular case.

stalkervision
06-15-2007, 05:42 AM
I believe many Yak models would be excellent "noob planes" it is just the noobs don't know it.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

DKoor
06-15-2007, 05:48 AM
Yak as it is now isn't really that good for noobs.
That's just my opinion.... it would be just nice ride for them if they know some stuff about Yak and have some "flying" hours under their belts, but I doubt at that point of experience that they can make that plane sings like they can perhaps Lavochkin series. Lavochkin being more stable and has 2x20mm.

It's more likely that they'll just serve as targets to faster and more experienced LW experten.

One thing is obvious about Yak tho.... it has very tough DM!

HellToupee
06-15-2007, 05:50 AM
ive always thought of the 109s as good for newbs, as u can be real hard on the stick and it wont stall.

stalkervision
06-15-2007, 06:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
Yak as it is now isn't really that good for noobs.
That's just my opinion.... it would be just nice ride for them if they know some stuff about Yak and have some "flying" hours under their belts, but I doubt at that point of experience that they can make that plane sings like they can perhaps Lavochkin series. Lavochkin being more stable and has 2x20mm.

It's more likely that they'll just serve as targets to faster and more experienced LW experten.

One thing is obvious about Yak tho.... it has very tough DM! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya, maybe the lavochkin's would be a better choice huh?

DKoor
06-15-2007, 06:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
ive always thought of the 109s as good for newbs, as u can be real hard on the stick and it wont stall. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes they are great rookie planes! Their biggest advantage is - they are stable planes on relatively low speeds.

I consider 109, Spitfire, Lavochkin as great beginner planes.

But that really can vary since some people learn faster some just don't play much... so.

And some planes are just great for pumping statistics..... FW-190 (blue side) & Tempest (red side) being maybe the best. But those require both some knowledge and experience.

Once when player gets those, he can do excellent job on closed pit servers and not only them - open pit servers like the Big Top, 334_dedicated as well!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
Ya, maybe the lavochkin's would be a better choice huh? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>IMHO yes... there are even few more reasons than just guns and "steadiness"... LA has fuel gauge in cockpit (all models) I consider that to be an advantage too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Manu-6S
06-15-2007, 06:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HellToupee:
ive always thought of the 109s as good for newbs, as u can be real hard on the stick and it wont stall. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Time ago they did... and however they don't autorecover (above all in 4.08).