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View Full Version : 4.02 will go down as the "Wobble Patch"



GR142_Astro
11-01-2005, 03:38 PM
Ok, some time has passed and I have messed with re-installs and stick settings until I can do no more.

Once I thought I had a handle on things and had adjusted input sliders for the millionth time, I did a simple test: Shoot down an enemy ac with the LaGG 3 and then I tried the F4U. A kill was relatively easy with the LaGG, but with the Corsair I watched any rudder input turn into a dizzying sway back and forth while I waited for the gunsight to finally settle down. In addition, many planes act as though they constantly have combat flaps deployed. Kind of like when you get jammed flaps, the plane rides on an uneasy cushion of air that never really allows any accurate gunnery.

Some aircraft, including the P51, P47 and F4U behave as if they have no rudder or vertical stab whatsoever. Gunnery can be downright impossible with these ac. I understand the 190 may be suffering a similar problem.

What are the chances we will get a fix the 4.02 patch? At the moment, IL2 is no longer playable for me.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

http://www.zcar.com/images/month/2005/10/1_big.jpg

GR142_Astro
11-01-2005, 03:38 PM
Ok, some time has passed and I have messed with re-installs and stick settings until I can do no more.

Once I thought I had a handle on things and had adjusted input sliders for the millionth time, I did a simple test: Shoot down an enemy ac with the LaGG 3 and then I tried the F4U. A kill was relatively easy with the LaGG, but with the Corsair I watched any rudder input turn into a dizzying sway back and forth while I waited for the gunsight to finally settle down. In addition, many planes act as though they constantly have combat flaps deployed. Kind of like when you get jammed flaps, the plane rides on an uneasy cushion of air that never really allows any accurate gunnery.

Some aircraft, including the P51, P47 and F4U behave as if they have no rudder or vertical stab whatsoever. Gunnery can be downright impossible with these ac. I understand the 190 may be suffering a similar problem.

What are the chances we will get a fix the 4.02 patch? At the moment, IL2 is no longer playable for me.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

http://www.zcar.com/images/month/2005/10/1_big.jpg

faustnik
11-01-2005, 03:43 PM
The problem is that the issue is not easily repeatable. We've been trying to figure it out over on the CWOS forums and just can't come up with a common denominator. It really sucks for the people that have the problem. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

GR142_Astro
11-01-2005, 03:46 PM
Hi Faust.

I could post a track, but it's so darn easy to repeat for those who want to see it. Fly a 109G2 or the LaGG then try an F4U (the 1-C seems to be particularly hideous) or a supposedly heavy P47.

Oi, is this another X45 issue?

Kuna15
11-01-2005, 03:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GR142_Astro:
Hi Faust.

I could post a track, but it's so darn easy to repeat for those who want to see it. Fly a 109G2 or the LaGG then try an F4U (the 1-C seems to be particularly hideous) or a supposedly heavy P47.

Oi, is this another X45 issue? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well aiming accurately is for sure easier in some aircraft than is some others. F4U v Bf-109G-2 is a good example.
No specific track needed, I believe that it is obvious to all community.

Well I also do not think that is an X45 issue, although I don't envy you on that rocker rudder (if you are using it to control rudder surface).

xTHRUDx
11-01-2005, 03:52 PM
i put a pre-4.02 config file back in the IL2 Dir.and no wobble here.

gates123
11-01-2005, 03:53 PM
If you havent heard about the corrupt installs try this. Grab an old confi.ini and pop it in 4.02. I heard people that replaced their old config file on top of the new one has fixed the wobbling issue. If you dont have an old one then reinstall the game to fix this.

Kuna15
11-01-2005, 03:54 PM
402 do not contains conf.ini, so you are running the same conf.ini as with 401.

That is out of the question, nor the conf.ini can be 'miraculously' get wrong by installing 402 over 401.

Just unzip your 402 files and you will see.

Now it only may be that our 401 conf.ini was 'wrong' in this regard (whatever the reason may be) but somehow worked good with our old 401.

GR142_Astro
11-01-2005, 03:55 PM
Als¸ wik,

I've read accounts like the rest of us, and when I read that Robert S Johnson "stomped" and "kicked" his rudder to line up shots I know that cannot be done in the IL2 Jug for instance.



R¸ten nik Akten Di


Wik


Als¸ wik


Als¸ als¸ wik


Wi n¸t trei a h¸liday in Sweden this yr?


See the l¸veli lakes


The w¸ndrful teleph¸ne system


And m¤ny interesting furry animals


Including the majestik m¸¸se


A m¸¸se once bit my sister...

LT.INSTG8R
11-01-2005, 03:56 PM
Same Issue here and Im on an X-52. you describe it perfectly:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GR142_Astro:
In addition, many planes act as though they constantly have combat flaps deployed. Kind of like when you get jammed flaps, the plane rides on an uneasy cushion of air that never really allows any accurate gunnery. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I saw this behaviour tonight while trying an IL2 campaign on my 3rd fresh install using Olegs stick settings. Also see what you describe about the F4's as I tried an F4 campaign and its also very "darty" with the late Spits as I started a campaign with one with the new NWE and ground attacking is scary at best

faustnik
11-01-2005, 04:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GR142_Astro:
Hi Faust.

I could post a track, but it's so darn easy to repeat for those who want to see it. Fly a 109G2 or the LaGG then try an F4U (the 1-C seems to be particularly hideous) or a supposedly heavy P47.

Oi, is this another X45 issue? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it is definatley NOT an X-45 issue. We tried that.

I don't have the issue, some others in our group don't but, some do, bad. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Kuna15
11-01-2005, 04:03 PM
Just checked 402m contains (files):

PaintSchemes (folder)
fb_3do12.SFS
fb_3do12p.SFS
fb_maps11.SFS
files.SFS
il2_core.dll
il2_coreP4.dll
Readme_v402.rtf
Readme_v402_de.RTF
Readme_v402_fr.rtf

Those files in 401m FB directory that are the same named as above mentioned on list will get overwritten.
Others will not, they will stay the same as in 401m.

GR142_Astro
11-01-2005, 04:05 PM
Heck, I'll just keep replying while I'm stuck at the studio.

To confirm your post Faust, my wingman also uses an X45 and is saying he has no wobble-tribble at all.

Freak.



http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue27/tribble.gif

Kuna15
11-01-2005, 04:11 PM
OK then @ GR142_Astro can you post a nrtk of a plane that behaves the worst on your machine (so I will compare it to handling that plane on my PC).
Or if you like I will make a track of few loops and strafes with plane and you can compare. I'm using EVO btw.

GR142_Astro
11-01-2005, 04:16 PM
Sure thing Kuna.

It may be tomorrow before I am able to do so. I will use the F4U-1C and do a similar run with the 109G2 just for kicks.

&lt;S&gt;

StellarRat
11-01-2005, 04:19 PM
Wobble shmobble...I just get within 150 meters. It doesn't make any difference then. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lunix
11-01-2005, 04:32 PM
Hey Astro nice Z!

VW-IceFire
11-01-2005, 04:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by StellarRat:
Wobble shmobble...I just get within 150 meters. It doesn't make any difference then. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
As well meaning as you are being...unfortnately when you have the "wobbles" it means that at 150 meters you can still miss a B-29 because the controls are just so off.

StellarRat
11-01-2005, 04:55 PM
Wow! That must be an L of wobble. My planes wobble too, but I can hit anything at 150 meters. I did make some changes to tone down my pitch and rudders.

faustnik
11-01-2005, 05:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GR142_Astro:
Hi Faust.

I could post a track, but it's so darn easy to repeat for those who want to see it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could you please make an ntrack (not a track) of your wobble issue and post it or PM it to me.

Thanks

Kuna15
11-01-2005, 05:15 PM
tbh when I am required to shoot from dead 6 with HMGs that is probably the toughest possible aim task I could imagine. It is suffice for enemy plane to do a small movement (usually a bit down) to disrupt my aim so I have to usually aim for next 5-10sec before I send another burst towards him (presuming he is flying straight).
With nose cannon things are easier, tho.

Easiest aim/shots for me are when aircraft shows a profile so all I have to do is send burst with correct deflection on bigger target surface.

That all tells me that I have unwittingly give up on using much rudder while I'm precisely aiming (when enemy aircraft is running away from me and I'm in chase). It seems that using rudder while aiming (especially on targets 200m and more away) is doing more harm than good to my style of shooting/flying in FB currently (with Cyorg EVO), because I can not get plane nose steady when using rudder. Whether it is my joystick issue, or me, or my joystick setting in conf.ini (they are quite good IMO, I'm using DaimonSyrius ones and I'm quite satisfied since previous were really ... not good http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) I don't know.
So I'm just spraying with synchronised HMGs (http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif) while with cannons things are easier a bit since I can rely on snap-shots more.

Purchasing pedals + my X45 collecting dust in the closet sounds like a really nice option now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. It must be better that way lol http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif.

blairgowrie
11-01-2005, 05:18 PM
Maybe if we are all really nice, UBI or whoever does it, will just revert back to 4.01 model when they do/sell the add on. Most people seemed to like 4.01 more than 4.02.

There, I have said it.

GSNei
11-01-2005, 05:30 PM
I have them - it's bad news - I was flying a Yak-3 a couple of nights ago and the slightest rudder input caused it to sway like crazy. I wonder if it's not a "bug" per-se, but part of the FM code that manifests much more sensitive in some peoples setups more than others. Oh and I have tried MANY different stick profiles over the last couple of weeks, some definitly help but the core problem remains.

Kuna15
11-01-2005, 05:32 PM
@ GSNei it seems that we have about the same opinion http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.
I agree 100%.

blackpulpit1970
11-01-2005, 06:15 PM
I agree this is way too wobbly, i have tried many of the tips that are being talked about here on the forums from input settings changed to re-installs to new config files and the problem is still there no matter what, yes some work better than others a little but for the most part it is still there and quite annoying to say the least, im for realism and all but this seams a bit overboard. I dont see why the drastic chamge from 4.01, what was wrong with the fm might have been some minor things but to change it to this wobble is not fun to me. Ive been loyal customer and great supporter of this game and will continue to be but i would like some sort of reasoning from oleg as to why he decided to make such a drastic change that has effected most of this great community. I will still fly this game and will be forced to get used to it,but i think we should at least find out from the man himself as to his thoughts on this fm r something. My 2 cents have a good day all.

crazyivan1970
11-01-2005, 06:28 PM
I have no such problems... and even if i did have slight wobbles they were pretty easy to illuminate. After testing for 4 hours with different planes i came to gold solution, at least for me. Hope it helps

This is MS FFB2, Filtering for pitch and roll 4 cliks to the right.

[rts_joystick]
X=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Y=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Z=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
RZ=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
FF=0
U=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
V=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
1X=0 54 64 71 76 80 84 88 91 94 100 30
1Y=0 54 60 68 75 80 85 90 94 96 100 30
1RZ=0 56 63 68 74 78 84 89 94 97 100 30
1U=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1V=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1X1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1Y1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1RX1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1RZ1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1U1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1V1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0

ImpStarDuece
11-01-2005, 07:02 PM
I have wobble.

Lots of it.

Rudder and pitch movements are sensitive in the extreeme.

I tried adjusting my stick settings for about a week, re-installing the patch (which helped somewhat), playing with a different joystick (an old MS Sidewinder).

Finally the only acceptable solution was for me to go back to 4.01.

It's no biggie, it just means that I can't play online. As I fly primarily offline, thats not really an issue, but it does stop me enjoying the new map and flight model.

neural_dream
11-01-2005, 08:07 PM
I agree with GSNei, Kuna and most others here. I won't go online until something miraculous happens. For about a week i had been playing with all solution i've read around and all stick settings. The game is definitely playable offline, but not online. You need to take your time to aim and use only aileron. It's like BoB2:WoV for me.
And for the first time i think Oleg really has an issue to solve. Imagine selling a Platinum DVD to newcomers like that?

Evo btw. Oh, and is there anyone who has a Saitek joystick and can aim in a F4U normally?

lol. It seems Oleg did it on purpose to force us play campaigns and appreciate the great new AI http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif.

Lemky
11-01-2005, 09:06 PM
Hey It is Nov.1 today,have you noticed the leaves on the trees Wobble before they fall,could be patch related??? 4.02 is porked,Go back to 4.01,Life is good.What was so good about the 4.02 patch that we can not live with out.

GSNei
11-01-2005, 09:51 PM
Crazyivan - I have an X-52 with CH pedals. If I understand the rts correctly the only axes I would adjust - for pitch roll and yaw are 1x1,1y1 and 1rz. If that's correct my settings now are pretty close to yours on those three axes (slightly less filter). The effect is still there, oversensitve input, especially on the RZ with exteme swaying before the plane settles to center. There's also noticable ocillation when planes are trimmed out for level flight with my hands completely off ANY controls. I've "backpatched" (no deletes) to 3.03m and the effect is gone. Maybe it's supposed to be there - I don't know - but at this point for me, I'd rather fly an older version.

TX-EcoDragon
11-01-2005, 10:03 PM
I sure would like to see a track from someone with this wobble issue. . .but since I haven't yet been able to get one maybe I should post one and you guys can see if it looks the same as when you fly the aircraft.

Oh, and regarding the conf.ini, I heard that some people were getting extra spaces (should be 1) before and/or after their [rts_joystick] section. It's worth a look for those with wobble issues.

gkll
11-01-2005, 11:41 PM
I think the new patch rewards properly coordinated flight, and the rudder is now &lt;critical&gt;. Thanks to Tully in his tips thread for posting a nice synopsis... what he is saying is that the wobbles come from new FM features which reward proper flying, and punish bad flying. If we all whine, instead of coming to grips with it, it'll get taken away.

I was curious about those who posted earlier opinions on new FM stating the rudder was less important, as my limited time had suggested it was far more critical. Flight is 3 axis and the coordinated rudder is taken away this patch... so there is a lot of trouble and complaints.

1c could have helped by providing better info on what changed in the patch, and also could work on better feedback for in pit flight so we can coordinate rudder by 'feel'... and we will need this eventually as the FM gains in fidelity as we approach BOB.

One13
11-02-2005, 05:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
This is MS FFB2, Filtering for pitch and roll 4 cliks to the right.

[rts_joystick]
X=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Y=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Z=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
RZ=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
FF=0
U=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
V=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
1X=0 54 64 71 76 80 84 88 91 94 100 30
1Y=0 54 60 68 75 80 85 90 94 96 100 30
1RZ=0 56 63 68 74 78 84 89 94 97 100 30
1U=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1V=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1X1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1Y1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1RX1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1RZ1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1U1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1V1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi Ivan,
on my config file I get-
[rts_joystick]
X=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Y=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Z=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
RZ=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
FF=1
U=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
V=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
1X=0 0 3 7 15 25 35 50 66 89 100 0
1Y=0 0 5 10 17 25 33 43 54 71 100 30
1RZ=0 0 8 19 29 39 51 62 75 86 100 0
1U=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1V=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1X1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1Y1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1Z1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0

You seem to have some extra lines, do you know what they do and if I should add them?

neural_dream
11-02-2005, 05:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gkll:
I think the new patch rewards properly coordinated flight, and the rudder is now &lt;critical&gt;. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What joystick do you have? I think that the "problematic" ones are the Saitek. Can you control a F4U while aiming if you touch the rudder?
I don't post a track 'cause i don't have a webspace to post it.

Sturm_Williger
11-02-2005, 05:54 AM
Um, I have an X45 ( but I use CH pedals - that rocker is mad ! ) and I haven't experienced much "wobble".

The first time I flew 4.02, I felt that the planes wobbled and it was harder to shoot ... for about 4 sorties. Then I seem to have adjusted, because I never noticed it again ( except insofar as the FM is slightly more responsive I think ). I changed nothing, no conf.ini overwrites, nothing.

Go figure. I don't know what the difference can be, but I shall try an F4U tonight ( not a plane I normally fly ) and see if I get any of the effects listed.

I still seem able to hit what I shoot at, whether with 151/20 or .50 cal ( usually in a P40 ).

WOLFMondo
11-02-2005, 06:02 AM
I completely re installed FB when the patch came out and the wobble essentially went.

But its back! After playing with IL2 sticks and my CH control manager app I wasn't happy so I put the settings in my conf file back to the defaults i used previously and used the CH control manager alone (all settings in the conf ini are at 100, ch control manager controls the actual input) to control the input as with 4.01. Now the wobble is back.

I've toned it down so I can fly the 190's with limited wobble but the P47 is very wobbly. The only settings with no wobble are the ones that mimic Eric Browns.

So maybe there is a reason for the wobble and all our settings are oversensitve? Eric Browns doesn't have full deflection and are very gradual.

Lord_Rhah
11-02-2005, 06:40 AM
Eric brown? forgive my newbish ignorance, but who's he?
and more importantly, where can i get his settings? are the stick-type specific, or are they conf. settings?

lowfighter
11-02-2005, 07:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lord_Rhah:
Eric brown? forgive my newbish ignorance, but who's he?
and more importantly, where can i get his settings? are the stick-type specific, or are they conf. settings? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He's a WWII pilot who tried FB and came with his settings that he thought matched his real life experience. This settings are VERY mild, if I remember right all inputs go from 0 to 40-50 maximum. It's obvious this helps with wobble issues, but you'll turn and roll like a He111 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

marmossel
11-02-2005, 07:35 AM
and where can we find those please?

Later Edit: nm, found them here: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=2...351061373#9351061373 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&amp;s=400102&amp;f=23110283&amp;m=8141099273&amp;r=93 51061373#9351061373) down the page

lowfighter
11-02-2005, 07:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buerebistas:
and where can we find those please?

Later Edit: nm, found them here: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=2...351061373#9351061373 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&amp;s=400102&amp;f=23110283&amp;m=8141099273&amp;r=93 51061373#9351061373) down the page </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

found them too, you've been quicker, anyway hi's settings are even milder then I recollected:

Captain Brown's Settings

Want to get the most realistic Il-2:FB experience possible? After testing, Captain Brown managed to help define what he considers the most realistic joystick sensitivity settings. If you have a copy of Il-2:FB and would like to emulate this go into Hardware setup, then 'Input' then 'Controls' - when you will find a range of sliders. Adjust these to:

Pitch 0, 1, 3, 7, 9, 14, 18, 23, 27, 33
Roll 0, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 10, 12, 17
Yaw 0, 0, 1, 2, 5, 6, 8, 11, 14, 16

Bringing these down to the values listed in the different axes should make for a much more realistic and true-to-life experience - in what is already a highly realistic warbird sim. Experienced Il-2 flyers may find that these seem to make the aircraft feel more sluggish and less responsive, but these settings will hake take-off and landings easier, as well as manoeuvres requiring small corrections like lining up behind an enemy aircraft or precision dive bombing. It also has to be remembered that vintage warbirds are considerably less agile than modern jet fighters - so that a 'slow roll' seen performed at airshows is very often a WW2 aircraft's max rate of roll - rather than the twinkling roll rate an F-16 might have. These settings bring the handling of aircraft in Il-2:FB more in line with Captain Brown's experience of the real thing and, of course, users can tweak these settings to their heart's content, perhaps adding more sensitivity at 100% deflection so that in extreme dogfights there is still full control authority there at the end of the scale.

msalama
11-02-2005, 08:49 AM
About wobbliness -

I've a Win98 machine w/ a C_R_A_P_P_Y joystick setup, i.e. 2 no-name POS old JSs mated together. OK, never mind that, but _this_ is where it gets a bit more interesting:

There're two Win98 internal JS drivers on my system that work with this setup, namely the generic 3-axis, 4 button JS driver and the Gravis Analog Pro JS driver. Now the generic driver (which is the one I use) is rock solid - no wobbliness, no abrupt input spikes, no nothing - whereas the Gravis driver is just nuts - waaaay too sensitive for anything, making planes all wobbly even with slight control inputs http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

And no, it's _not_ IL-2 only, but FS2004 too, because the Gravis driver just makes the JS unusable! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

So maybe all ye wobblies should shop around for an alternative JS driver too? Might help, y'see...

neural_dream
11-02-2005, 09:05 AM
It's quite simple. The support for FB-PF is done by 1-2 people, since the rest belong to the BoB project. It's very normal that it wasn't extensively tested with various joysticks.

I use an Evo, one of the most common and popular joysticks. I never had any problem with it in FB or FS2K4 or BoB2 or Falcon4, but i did have in LOMAC. Most people don't play both games, so they don't know that a year ago, the 4.02 wobbliness issue had appeared in LOMAC version 1.2. Suddenly the pitch had become unplayably oversensitive to the point you'd think it was a joke. The solution provided in forums was again to compensate by playing with sensitivities and a specific refresh rate, which dropped fps but improved joystick control.

In other words, since i won't buy a new non-twist stick or rudder pedals just for a fawlty patch, i'll stick to the offline campaigns, which btw are superb now with the new AI. Especially those zeros http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. The addon may fix things. There must be one in the development team who has a Saitek and flys F4Us for example and not P40s or Hurricanes.


Oh, and please, if you don't have the problem it isn't useful to imply that we cannot get used to the FM and that there's nothing wrong with the patch. The issue has been brought up by very respected members of this community who never whine and never demand.

thomb314
11-02-2005, 09:09 AM
Tweaking joystick settings may help a lot, but there is a distinctive difference in aircraft characteristics going from 4.01 to 4.02.

I made a copy of the 4.01 directory before patching, so I'm able to play both versions and compare differences within minutes.

The aircraft's orientation (angle of attack) around the pitch/yaw-axis behaves approximately like a damped harmonic oscillator (as it should). The behaviour is determined by the moment of inertia, and the magnitude of the centering "spring"-force and damping forces. (Anyone who have solved second order ordinary differential equations will know this)

I did some tests, throwing the stick and rudder around a bit, and tried to observe the characteristics of the P-51D Mustang in 4.01 and 4.02. It was possible for me to observe the characteristic frequency of the pitch/yaw oscillations, inertia and damping in a qualitative manner.

Now this is important: These characteristics are independent of joystick settings, at least as long as the observations are done after the controls have returned to neutral positions. (I did use the exact same joystick settings in both cases though)

There seems to be quite a big difference between 4.01 and 4.02 wheen looking at these oscillations. The balance between the spring force, damping forces and inertia has definitely changed, possibly as a consequence of changing/tweaking other parts of the flight model.

These observations is quite easy to make, all you have to look at is:
1. What's the frequency of the oscillations
2. How many times does the aircraft oscillate before it reaches equilibrium.
3. How large are the oscillations?

If you reduce the inertia, without adjusting the forces (or vice versa), the characteristics will change.

I would say this is the main reason for all the complaining about wobbling. Why isn't everyone complaining? Well, some joystick settings and joysticks are better than others when it comes to coping with these new characteristics.
(Then we have the possible corruption of joystick settings, and the placebo effect, complicating the matters even more)

Here is an important point: I have no idea which version is more realistic. I did find some data on pitch stability for the F-18 Hornet on a NASA page, but I doubt there exists such data for WWII aircraft.

The problem is, you can very well have a flight model with correct speeds, roll rates, turning rates, torque effects and so on, and still be way off on the oscillation characteristics. In order to get it right, I guess you would have to go out and measure it in a real plane. I don't think there is any way to calculate these characteristics from just knowing roll rates and that kind of data.

Asking a real pilot might not help either. I guess any real pilot would avoid the most violent oscillations, though this would be the only way he could reliably make any observations that could easily be compared with a computer based flight model.

To me, this oscillation characteristics stuff seems like the most overlooked part of flight models today, the characteristics seem quite random from sim to sim (and even from plane to plane in FS9 for example).

Have you ever tried comparing Falcon 4.0 to Lock On? In Falcon 4.0 there are no oscillations whatsoever (it is "overdamped"), but in Lock On they are there. In the F-15 you can easily get it to oscillate between -1G and +2G before it settles down, if you are a little violent with the stick. (There were even similar threads in Lock On forums about wobbling because of this, where people were adviced to review their joystick settings...)

This post is getting long enough, so I'll try to summarize my opinions: The wobbling in 4.02 is probably caused by a change in flight model parameters. This change may or may not be realistic. Tweaking your joystick settings will help you. Possible issues with conf.ini and joystick settings are complicating the matter. Until someone measures the characteristics on a real plane we won't know how it really should be.

hos8367
11-02-2005, 09:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kuna15:
402 do not contains conf.ini, so you are running the same conf.ini as with 401.

That is out of the question, nor the conf.ini can be 'miraculously' get wrong by installing 402 over 401.

Just unzip your 402 files and you will see.

Now it only may be that our 401 conf.ini was 'wrong' in this regard (whatever the reason may be) but somehow worked good with our old 401. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This doesn't mean that pasting an older config won't fix it. I have a theory, and its just a theory so bear with me. Perhaps 4.02 is not correctly loading the conf.ini (or not reading it at all). Perhaps the game does not reread the file upon starting the game unless there is a change in the file's timestamp. If there is no change it assumes that all files are the same and does not redo this process. You can't ignore the fact that many have had the issue fixed by putting an old conf.ini in that should be identical. Others have reported deleting a few blank lines then saving has fixed it, though it could just be the new timestamp causing the file to be properly loaded.

Kuna15
11-02-2005, 12:34 PM
@ hos8367 with all do respect, my opinion is that in most of such cases users experiences either placebo effect or user reverts his joystick settings to default so plane handling is of course different. That are, IMO, the only two reasonable explanations for me so far.

There is simply not enough input by people what exactly is wrong in conf.ini but once when they apply 401 conf.ini it looks better http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif.

It is not hard to check out what is the problem since simple comparing two files will do (before new 402 conf.ini is overwritten of course).
Now that will prvide some evidence of what has been changed. For someone willing to compare here is my 402 conf.ini:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
[il2]
title=Il2-Sturmovik Forgotten Battles
hotkeys=HotKey game

[window]
width=1024
height=768
ColourBits=16
DepthBits=24
StencilBits=8
ChangeScreenRes=1
FullScreen=1
DrawIfNotFocused=0
EnableResize=0
EnableClose=1
SaveAspect=1
Use3Renders=0

[GLPROVIDER]
GL=Opengl32.dll

[GLPROVIDERS]
Open GL=Opengl32.dll
DirectX=dx8wrap.dll

[NET]
speed=8000
routeChannels=0
serverChannels=1
localPort=21000
remotePort=21000
SkinDownload=1
serverName=No Name
serverDescription=
remoteHost=
localHost=
socksHost=
checkServerTimeSpeed=1
checkClientTimeSpeed=0

[MaxLag]
farMaxLagTime=10.0
nearMaxLagTime=2.0
cheaterWarningDelay=5.0
cheaterWarningNum=-1

[chat]
region=(dx=1.0009766,dy=0.095052086,x=0.0,y=0.0)
adr1=MY_ARMY
adr0=ALL
msg0=&lt;timeleft
msg1=&lt;gunstat

[game]
Arcade=1
HighGore=1
mapPadX=0.66796875
mapPadY=-0.046875
viewSet=59
Intro=0
NoSubTitles=0
NoChatter=0
NoHudLog=0
NoLensFlare=0
iconTypes=3
eventlog=eventlog.lst
eventlogkeep=1
3dgunners=0
TypeClouds=0
ClearCache=0
SubTitlesLines=3

[HotKey game]
PrintScreen=ScreenShot
P=pause
Pause=pause

[HotKey gui]
Escape=activate

[HookViewFly Config]
timeFirstStep=2.0
deltaZ=10.0

[HookView]
MouseLeft=Len

[HookView Config]
AzimutSpeed=0.1
TangageSpeed=0.1
LenSpeed=1.0
MinLen=1.0
DefaultLen=20.0
MaxLen=3000.0
Speed=6

[HotKey builder]
MouseLeft=objectMove
MouseRight=popupmenu
Enter=freeView
Shift MouseLeft=worldZoom
Alt MouseLeft=select+
Alt MouseRight=select-
Alt Ctrl=unselect
PageDown=change+
PageUp=change-
End=change++
Home=change--
Ctrl MouseLeft=insert+
Insert=insert+
NumPad-0=insert+
F=fill
Ctrl MouseRight=delete+
NumPad.=delete+
Delete=delete+
Backspace=cursor
Tab=cursor
F10=land
F11=onLand
NumPad-=normalLand
NumPad+=toLand
NumPad-5=resetAngles
NumPad-8=resetTangage90
NumPad-7=stepAzimut-5
NumPad-4=stepAzimut-15
NumPad-1=stepAzimut-30
NumPad-9=stepAzimut5
NumPad-6=stepAzimut15
NumPad-3=stepAzimut30

[MouseXYZ]
F1=SpeedSlow
F2=SpeedNormal
F3=SpeedFast
MouseRight=XYmove
F4 MouseRight=Zmove
MouseMiddle=Amove
F5 MouseRight=Amove
F6 MouseRight=Tmove
F7 MouseRight=Kmove

[MouseXYZ Config]
RealTime=1

[HotKey Console]
Shift Tab=Activate
[Console]
HISTORY=1024
HISTORYCMD=1024
LOAD=console.cmd
SAVE=console.cmd
LOG=1
LOGTIME=1
LOGFILE=log.lst
LOGKEEP=1

[sound]
SoundUse=1
SoundEngine=1
Speakers=4
Placement=0
SoundFlags.reversestereo=0
RadioFlags.Enabled=1
RadioEngine=2
MusicVolume=0
ObjectVolume=5
MusState.takeoff=0
MusState.inflight=0
MusState.crash=0
MusFlags.play=0
MasterVolume=14
Attenuation=7
SoundMode=1
SamplingRate=2
NumChannels=3
SoundExt.occlusions=0
SoundFlags.hardware=1
SoundFlags.streams=1
SoundFlags.duplex=1
SoundExt.acoustics=0
SoundExt.volumefx=0
SoundFlags.voicemgr=0
SoundFlags.static=1
VoiceVolume=3
Channels=2
SoundExt.extrender=0
SoundFlags.bugscorrect=0
SoundSetupId=8
ActivationLevel=0.02
Preemphasis=0.85
RadioLatency=0.5
AGC=1
PTTMode=1
SoundFlags.UseRadioChatter=0
SoundFlags.AutoActivation=0
RadioFlags.PTTMode=0
RadioFlags.PlayClicks=0
ActLevel=0
MicLevel=0
SoundFlags.forceEAX1=0

[rts]
;ProcessAffinityMask=1
mouseUse=2
joyUse=1
trackIRUse=0
DisableIME=0
locale=

[rts_mouse]
SensitivityX=1.0
SensitivityY=1.0
Invert=0
SensitivityZ=1.0

[rts_joystick]
X=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Y=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Z=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
RZ=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
FF=0
U=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
V=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
1X=0 60 66 72 74 76 79 82 87 94 100 0
1Y=0 60 66 72 74 76 79 82 87 94 100 0
1Z=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1RZ=0 40 42 46 50 56 62 70 80 91 100 0

1RX=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
1V=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0

[Render_DirectX]
TexQual=3
TexMipFilter=2
TexCompress=0
TexFlags.UseDither=1
TexFlags.UseAlpha=0
TexFlags.UseIndex=0
TexFlags.PolygonStipple=1
TexFlags.UseClampedSprites=0
TexFlags.DrawLandByTriangles=1
TexFlags.UseVertexArrays=1
TexFlags.DisableAPIExtensions=0
TexFlags.ARBMultitextureExt=1
TexFlags.TexEnvCombineExt=1
TexFlags.SecondaryColorExt=1
TexFlags.VertexArrayExt=1
TexFlags.ClipHintExt=0
TexFlags.UsePaletteExt=0
TexFlags.TexAnisotropicExt=0
TexFlags.TexCompressARBExt=1
TexFlags.TexEnvCombine4NV=0
TexFlags.TexEnvCombineDot3=0
TexFlags.DepthClampNV=0
TexFlags.SeparateSpecular=0
TexFlags.TextureShaderNV=0

HardwareShaders=0

Shadows=2
Specular=2
SpecularLight=2
DiffuseLight=2
DynamicalLights=1
MeshDetail=2
VisibilityDistance=3

Sky=2
Forest=2
LandShading=3
LandDetails=2

LandGeom=2
TexLarge=1
TexLandQual=3
TexLandLarge=1

VideoSetupId=15
ForceShaders1x=0
PolygonOffsetFactor=-0.15
PolygonOffsetUnits=-3.0
Water=1
Effects=1

[Render_OpenGL]
TexQual=3
TexMipFilter=1
TexCompress=1
TexFlags.UseDither=1
TexFlags.UseAlpha=0
TexFlags.UseIndex=0
TexFlags.PolygonStipple=1
TexFlags.UseClampedSprites=0
TexFlags.DrawLandByTriangles=1
TexFlags.UseVertexArrays=1
TexFlags.DisableAPIExtensions=0
TexFlags.ARBMultitextureExt=1
TexFlags.TexEnvCombineExt=1
TexFlags.SecondaryColorExt=1
TexFlags.VertexArrayExt=1
TexFlags.ClipHintExt=0
TexFlags.UsePaletteExt=0
TexFlags.TexAnisotropicExt=0
TexFlags.TexCompressARBExt=1

TexFlags.TexEnvCombine4NV=1
TexFlags.TexEnvCombineDot3=1
TexFlags.DepthClampNV=1
TexFlags.SeparateSpecular=1
TexFlags.TextureShaderNV=1

HardwareShaders=0

Shadows=2
Specular=2
SpecularLight=2
DiffuseLight=2
DynamicalLights=1
MeshDetail=2
VisibilityDistance=3

Sky=2
Forest=2
LandShading=3
LandDetails=2

LandGeom=2
TexLarge=1
TexLandQual=3
TexLandLarge=1

VideoSetupId=17
Water=1
Effects=0
ForceShaders1x=1

PolygonOffsetFactor=-0.15
PolygonOffsetUnits=-3.0

[DGen]
OperationVictory=3000
OperationDefeat=-3000
WarVictory=30000
WarDefeat=-30000
SlowFire=1.0
HistoricalRanks=1

[DeviceLink]
port=21100
IPS=127.0.0.1
host=127.0.0.1
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now I don't have default 300m conf.ini, but would like to know what is suspicious when one compare void 300 conf.ini (without any costom settings) to my 402 conf.ini.
Or better to simply first back up conf.ini then copy/paste my "wobbling" conf.ini into his/her directory to see if there are any differences.

My first impression was that it is about joystick (twisty joystick Cyborg EVO in my case) and that is mostly rudder issue. And after seeing other people inputs in this thread I'm more convinced of that.
So when user post that he/she is getting some weird problems with game, first thing is to post the type of joystick used http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

NorrisMcWhirter
11-02-2005, 12:38 PM
Hi,

"Beyond compare" html difference report for your conf.ini vs mine:

http://www.brayllo.plus.com/sig/confcompare.html

You can see that my joystick settings are 'less responsive' than yours and that I have filtering one notch of the lowest.

I use an MS FFB2.

Now, this would be a useful way of determining why people get wobble. I don't have too much of it now I toned this down but I certainly DO get a lot of it with my old, sensitive stick settings. And, as people probably know, I've proved beyond doubt that it's not my install causing the wobble problem.


Ta,
Norris

WOLFMondo
11-02-2005, 12:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lowfighter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lord_Rhah:
Eric brown? forgive my newbish ignorance, but who's he?
and more importantly, where can i get his settings? are the stick-type specific, or are they conf. settings? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He's a WWII pilot who tried FB and came with his settings that he thought matched his real life experience. This settings are VERY mild, if I remember right all inputs go from 0 to 40-50 maximum. It's obvious this helps with wobble issues, but you'll turn and roll like a He111 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I actually really like those settings, they work very well with the Spitfire for instance and despite not having full deflection, performance is not diminished, one real benefit is speed, you fly sooo much faster using them as your control inputs are incredibly smooth which conserves energy.

I'm definatly warming too them, they really suit the BnZ'er. Try them, you might like them...

Kuna15
11-02-2005, 12:49 PM
Hey @ NorrisMcWhirter thanks that was fast too. First thing for me to check out are your joystick settings of course.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

iron_guantlet
11-02-2005, 01:01 PM
It is possible that some of the wobble issue with 4.02 could be controll sticks and certain aircraft in the game. i have used a X-45 for 3 6 months,after i installed 4.02 i used the same stick for 3 days on and offline while flying the different models of the 109 i noticed hardly little wobble in the 109E-4 to the F-4 but from the G-2 on up it got progresvly worse but not to bad. Then, 2 days ago my dog chewed up the usb plug on the X-45 and i exchanged it at Best buy for a new X-45 and the wobble has gotten worse. i belive this is cuased by the actual stick even tho both sticks are identical. this could be becuase my first X-45 was assembled at the factory by a guy on a Monday and he was able to concentrate on his work, and the stick i have now was assembled by a guy on Friday and all he was concentraiting on was punching out for the weekend and hitting the bar. Even tho the wobble has gotten worse with the new exact stick i still notice that when i fly the 109E-4 up to the F-4 it is not to bad to deal with but from the G-2 on up it gets really bad now. So the problem might be with the new pacth a mixture of things.

neural_dream
11-02-2005, 01:07 PM
Is there any way i can extract the files responsible for the new AI and drop them on 4.01? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif. Seriously. After all I don't fly Yak7BPF and P47D.

Kuna15
11-02-2005, 02:33 PM
"...
New AI ground objects

Armored train.

New Map

Northwest Europe
Creators: Ian Boys, Oleg Rozhentsov
..."

@ neural_dream you will lose this gems too. btw you can go easily on 401; just apply it over your 402 version. Works perfectly. I wont do that, I like the new maps too much and campaigns (NWEurope campaign is real gem for those who like campaign aspect of playing I know that you do so that's why I am mentioneing this).

I have also made a little nrtk with F4U in dogfight/GAttack role, so you guys may compare your F4U gun platform with mine. F4U and ace J2M are using 50% fuel, guns default, map Okinawa start at 1000m alt. Just one more note, although flying is out of perspective here, gunnery is what matters and I have done my best to aim and shoot as accurate as possible.

track: F4U_v_Jack (http://free-vk.t-com.hr/domagoj/tracks/F4U_v_Jack.rar)

Extract file from archive and put it in your "records" folder within main FB/PF folder among other .trk/.nrtk files.

msalama
11-02-2005, 02:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Is there any way i can extract the files responsible for the new AI and drop them on 4.01? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As Kuna pointed out, you can just re-install v.4.01 over the new patch. But that's it - you'll lose the new features, and because the files are encrypted there's no way to extract anything from them. Sorry...

Aaron_GT
11-02-2005, 03:11 PM
No wobble here. MS FFB 2, and I haven't touched the stick config in several patches.

neural_dream
11-02-2005, 03:15 PM
I watched your track Kuna and it's more or less what i experience too with my twisty evo, if i try very hard.

(Btw, which campaign is that NWEurope Campaign?)

Kuna15
11-02-2005, 03:35 PM
About new NW_Europe campaigns:

New DGen campaigns discussion over at Pacific Fighters UBI forum:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/26310365/m...931097963#7931097963 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/26310365/m/7931097963/r/7931097963#7931097963)

DGen download
http://www.netwings.org/files/fb_missions/NW_Europe_DGen/NWEDgen.zip

After you install that DGen overwrite it with this DGen_beta3 (newest version, corrects some errors):
http://ianboys.war-clouds.net/NWE_DGen_Beta3.zip

After installation new campaigns are available for USAAF, RAF and Luftwaffe.

Kuna15
11-02-2005, 03:45 PM
About F4U track the problems (for me) started on about 3:30min of track. That opportunity for a clear shot should result in fast kill, but I could not achieve that.

Also I used @ NorrisMcWhirter joystick settings on that track and they are quite good, but those I already used were just fine too (DaimonSyrius).

Bernoulli
11-02-2005, 05:04 PM
That F4U track is a good example of the effects of what is called "lazy feet". It might be time for 1C to include some new training missions that demonstrate the proper use of the rudder control.

Look up adverse yaw and gyroscopic effects for starters.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/5111047273

Bernie

Kuna15
11-02-2005, 05:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bernoulli:
That F4U track is a good example of the effects of what is called "lazy feet". It might be time for 1C to include some new training missions that demonstrate the proper use of the rudder control.

Look up adverse yaw and gyroscopic effects for starters.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/5111047273

Bernie </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would like to see some other similar tracks made with Cyborg EVO http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. I suppose X45 with rocker rudder control will do also.

And the official list of reccomended gaming hardware v402 -- controllers section http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

neural_dream
11-02-2005, 05:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bernoulli:
That F4U track is a good example of the effects of what is called "lazy feet". It might be time for 1C to include some new training missions that demonstrate the proper use of the rudder control. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gifLazy?? I guess you don't have any wobble problem with your joystick and i bet you don't have the evo. I suppose you even have pedals. To aim with the evo even with the best possible sensitivity settings in the F4U you need to work very hard. When Kuna doesn't use the rudder, although in any previous version of the game he would, is because he has to aim with the ailerons and elevator only, otherwise he'll lose the guy for good in that pass.

Thx Kuna for the links btw http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

danjama
11-02-2005, 07:04 PM
Got Track? I like Jelly, that wobbles...

*edit* http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Id like to add something useful, um, i use a cyborg evo and i have stick settings similar to norris's, not much wobbling. Corsairs are hard to aim, but they always have been, but i wouldnt say its shaking or wobbling, its just a plane that misdirects its fire easy just like other planes also. I dont really have a problem with wobbling.

Kuna15
11-02-2005, 07:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by danjama:
i use a cyborg evo
I dont really have a problem with wobbling. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Got track? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

danjama
11-02-2005, 07:19 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Glad u saw the funny side Kuna, alot of people would bust me for ruining a perfectly serious thread. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Jaco_Erdwurm
11-02-2005, 08:37 PM
We had a bunch of problems with the nose wobble in my group of friends we just used old conf.ini files or used sticks.exe to reload profile to conf file ,the only Dif we could find were the spaces, doesnt make sense but it fixed the problem for sure worked like a champ

Tully__
11-02-2005, 09:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kuna15:
@ hos8367 with all do respect, my opinion is that in most of such cases users experiences either placebo effect or user reverts his joystick settings to default so plane handling is of course different. That are, IMO, the only two reasonable explanations for me so far.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Kuna, I'd like to believe this, but in almost every patch since the original IL2 Sturmovik there have been a small number of users suffering from random conf.ini file irregularities after a patch. In this patch the number seems to be larger and the confusion has been compounded by changes to the flight model.

I agree on face value it seems unlikely, but nevertheless the trend has been going on for too long and the people reporting this include people to sane, reasonable and systematic in their investigations to totally discount it.

I'm sure some of those reporting problems are simply having trouble adapting poor control habits to the new FM bahaviour but not all of what I've seen reported can be accounted for by that alone.

GR142_Astro
11-02-2005, 10:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
I have no such problems... and even if i did have slight wobbles they were pretty easy to illuminate. After testing for 4 hours with different planes i came to gold solution, at least for me. Hope it helps

This is MS FFB2, Filtering for pitch and roll 4 cliks to the right.

[rts_joystick]
X=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Y=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Z=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
RZ=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
FF=0
U=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
V=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
1X=0 54 64 71 76 80 84 88 91 94 100 30
1Y=0 54 60 68 75 80 85 90 94 96 100 30
1RZ=0 56 63 68 74 78 84 89 94 97 100 30
1U=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1V=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1X1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1Y1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1RX1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1RZ1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1U1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1V1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Copied and pasted these lines into my Conf, and it has helped considerably. Moreso than any other thing I have tried. At this point, I don't care if it was spaces or what. The game is at least playable again.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

There are still some yaw issues with the F4U and Jug namely, but this now appears to be specific FM problems for these ac.

lowfighter
11-03-2005, 03:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lowfighter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lord_Rhah:
Eric brown? forgive my newbish ignorance, but who's he?
and more importantly, where can i get his settings? are the stick-type specific, or are they conf. settings? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He's a WWII pilot who tried FB and came with his settings that he thought matched his real life experience. This settings are VERY mild, if I remember right all inputs go from 0 to 40-50 maximum. It's obvious this helps with wobble issues, but you'll turn and roll like a He111 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I actually really like those settings, they work very well with the Spitfire for instance and despite not having full deflection, performance is not diminished, one real benefit is speed, you fly sooo much faster using them as your control inputs are incredibly smooth which conserves energy.

I'm definatly warming too them, they really suit the BnZ'er. Try them, you might like them... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fully agree, smoother flight=less loss of energy,good for B&Zers. I use also somewhat mild settings, that is all up to around 50%.

Kuna15
11-03-2005, 06:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tully__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kuna15:
@ hos8367 with all do respect, my opinion is that in most of such cases users experiences either placebo effect or user reverts his joystick settings to default so plane handling is of course different. That are, IMO, the only two reasonable explanations for me so far.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Kuna, I'd like to believe this, but in almost every patch since the original IL2 Sturmovik there have been a small number of users suffering from random conf.ini file irregularities after a patch. In this patch the number seems to be larger and the confusion has been compounded by changes to the flight model.

I agree on face value it seems unlikely, but nevertheless the trend has been going on for too long and the people reporting this include people to sane, reasonable and systematic in their investigations to totally discount it.

I'm sure some of those reporting problems are simply having trouble adapting poor control habits to the new FM bahaviour but not all of what I've seen reported can be accounted for by that alone. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tully so far I didn't saw how conf.ini is related to game physics on the forum (or better evidences of issues with it in a way "I had this conf.ini and it produced wobble effects while this new one does not"). I don't say that isn't possible... just I didn't saw that kind of evidence yet. Without that kind of systematic testing we can only end up in the blind street as far as hard evidences for this issue are concerned.

About bug reporting of 402 wobble effect, I think we can agree that lion share of it can be attributed to (unappropriate) joystick settings.
I myself was running problematic joystick settings and when I adopt some more suited ones (DaimonSyrius, NorrisMcWhirter) I really noticed that now planes are handling better for me. It may be that this suites my style better, or suites my favourite planes better -- whatever the reason this settings are good for me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif.

AH_Gonzo
11-03-2005, 07:07 AM
It is NOT a joy stick issue! I thought it might be a stick settings issue at first but then I came across this thread:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/5261079963/p/1

Problem solved. That same fix helped out another pilot in the squad I fly with that was having the same problems.

So drammatic was the effect that after re-installing and flying the game I didn't even bother to adjust my stick settings for a couple of days. There really wasn't an urgent need to.

BSS_CUDA
11-03-2005, 07:57 AM
I know my gunnery has gone to hell since this patch, I used to hit at an 8% clip but since 4.02 I'm at 3.9%. I've tried a wipe and reinstall, I've tied tweeking my stick settings but nothing seems to work. its frustrating as hell to get behind your target and try to get your nose on it, and it starts that dang swaying. left and right, left and right. I feel like a bobble head doll. were talkin about a 20,000 lbs plane in the 38 it shouldnt wobble. and reading through most of this and other threads it appears that its only american planes thats the problem. is this true or did I miss read?

hos8367
11-03-2005, 08:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kuna15:
@ hos8367 with all do respect, my opinion is that in most of such cases users experiences either placebo effect or user reverts his joystick settings to default so plane handling is of course different. That are, IMO, the only two reasonable explanations for me so far. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

With all do respect you sound like the people who just say its the new flight model, and there is no bug. It fixed it for quite a few experienced pilots. Almost everyone I know who had it.

GR142_Astro
11-03-2005, 09:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
and reading through most of this and other threads it appears that its only american planes thats the problem. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Once again, it looks like Olegster has decided to "bless" the US aircraft with the bulk of the gimmicks. So far, the worst offenders seem to be the P47, P51, P39 and F4U. Try lining up a cannon shot in the P39 now. It's hilarious.

Then, take up the 109g2 or LaGG 3 and see how much better they are at tracking. So, again, Oleg seems keen to represent US aircraft as being a bit heavier and less agile than their typical opponent, but at the same time he takes away the fact that they were stable gun platforms.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

http://www.mustangsmustangs.net/p-51/survivors/pages/picfiles/44-74536/44-74536_43_cf1.jpg

Lord_Rhah
11-03-2005, 09:28 AM
It is quite blatant in the US aircraft, but its also there in the Spits, and the 109's.
I do agree that the LAGG seems pretty stable though, but the LA-5 and LA-7 also seem quite wobbly, at least to me.

GR142_Astro
11-03-2005, 09:38 AM
I promised Kuna15 a track, and once the GF gives me a free evening I will get it done.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Basically, my plan was to come to a certain speed (say 300kph), fly straight and level, push the rudder all the way to one side and then count the time or number of pendulum swings until the gunsight settles.

The LaGG and 109G2 settle down right away, while the F4U and P47 seem to take forever. Makes any shot you connect on seem like a lucky shot.

http://www.painetworks.com/photos/fg/fg1772.JPG

BSS_CUDA
11-03-2005, 09:45 AM
38's the same way. any input and all and it starts to sway Back and forth 3-4 times, what makes it even worse is your trying to correct it the whole time and amplifying the problem. it is almost impossible to get a clean shot on anything

NorrisMcWhirter
11-03-2005, 09:56 AM
The P38 is one of the more stable aircraft in this patch so I don't buy the conspiracy theory.

109G2 is stable at speed but you try aiming at low speed as you're rolling onto a bandit you've been dragging in a spiral climb.

The Corsair seems most susceptible of US aircraft in 4.02m.

IIRC, Ivan's settings have quite a high filtering value (last value = "30" = three notches off the lowest?). I've never had any filtering before as I never had to but I've found I need it with 4.02m.

Ta,
Norris

BSS_CUDA
11-03-2005, 10:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
The P38 is one of the more stable aircraft in this patch so I don't buy the conspiracy theory.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

hehe we're talking about the P-38 Lightning not the P-38 can opener.

the Lightning is FAR from stable and everyone I've talked to the flys it says the same thing

faustnik
11-03-2005, 10:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
and reading through most of this and other threads it appears that its only american planes thats the problem. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



That is definately not true. Try the Fw190, it is much harder to aim than previous patches as well. Please try it to confirm. <span class="ev_code_RED">Stop with the "Oleg is biased" conspiracy please.</span>

HayateAce
11-03-2005, 10:36 AM
Why is it so hard for you to comprehend conspiracy. It's not a mysterious word and it does not have to be complex. In fact, it can be very open and blatant.

Oleg holds a low opinion of US aircraft = US aircraft don't perform well in his gamulator

Simple really, and is proven by Oleg ignoring US charts and data as propaganda.

NorrisMcWhirter
11-03-2005, 10:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
The P38 is one of the more stable aircraft in this patch so I don't buy the conspiracy theory.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

hehe we're talking about the P-38 Lightning not the P-38 can opener.

the Lightning is FAR from stable and everyone I've talked to the flys it says the same thing </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suggest you/they check their stick settings. The only time the P38 I fly gets out of hand is when I apply _harsh_ rudder input like when I'm taking a desperate last second snapshot but that's no worse than anything else I've tried. With more general shots, I don't get wobble anything like with the F4U, for example.

Also, I was flying a P39D2 online too and bagged 3 Ki43s with it without any aiming issues - that seemed pretty stable to me, also.

Of course these are not planes I normally fly so I'm coming to them, in 4.02, thinking "these are pretty stable" whereas you may see more of a difference from 4.01. One way of looking at that would be to suggest that the planes I've been flying were bad in 4.01 for me to think that these are good in 4.02.

Ta,
Norris

neural_dream
11-03-2005, 10:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
The P38 is one of the more stable aircraft in this patch so I don't buy the conspiracy theory.

109G2 is stable at speed but you try aiming at low speed as you're rolling onto a bandit you've been dragging in a spiral climb.

The Corsair seems most susceptible of US aircraft in 4.02m.

IIRC, Ivan's settings have quite a high filtering value (last value = "30" = three notches off the lowest?). I've never had any filtering before as I never had to but I've found I need it with 4.02m.

Ta,
Norris </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What he said.
In fact all of it.
Oh, and I don't think Oleg cares that much about 4.02 really (that goes to the conspiracy theories). I bet he is more interested in solving problems and meeting deadlines for BoB.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GR142_Astro:
I promised Kuna15 a track, and once the GF gives me a free evening I will get it done.
Wink2 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Did your grandfather give you the evening off? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif We need tracks to understand the problem.


For a more systematic way of understanding the problem I've started a thread (Wobblaholics Anonymous) http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/6731094373. You may want to go there and share your experience http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif, and most important the joystick http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. It seems that for some reason the new FM is oversensitive for the twistedhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif Saiteks and changing sensitivity settings isn't a perfect solution. I can make my stick "BnZ only" and fly well, but i don't want that.

faustnik
11-03-2005, 10:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:


Oleg holds a low opinion of US aircraft = US aircraft don't perform well in his gamulator
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Baseless whining.

Scen
11-03-2005, 11:25 AM
The main issue is that the "Wobble" is fairly subjective.

There is no doubt 4.02m introduced some instability in the Yaw axis and it varies from airplane to airplane and from game rig to game rig period.

I don't believe it's joystick issue either although making changes can help with the problem.

I have plenty of Track files that shows the effect and it's pretty clear that it is part of the game now.

Whether or not these planes in reality had this type instability is a different story and I don't have any data that either supports the wobble or discredits the wobble. Maybe someone with real data can comment

It's only my opinion based upon my real flying experience that the planes shouldn't be this unstable especially at speed. Flying a plane in the low speed or high speed regime then all bets are off.

Just to make a comment about the P-38. There should be a lot less issues with 38 period. It's a twin with counter rotating props and it should be one of the most stable gun platforms of the war. Even in most flight regimes she should be very stable. The only time she should get odd is when she's asymmetrical.

Meanwhile I hope someone is paying attention.

Scendore€s Two Cents

Kuna15
11-03-2005, 11:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hos8367:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kuna15:
@ hos8367 with all do respect, my opinion is that in most of such cases users experiences either placebo effect or user reverts his joystick settings to default so plane handling is of course different. That are, IMO, the only two reasonable explanations for me so far. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

With all do respect you sound like the people who just say its the new flight model, and there is no bug. It fixed it for quite a few experienced pilots. Almost everyone I know who had it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is not the case, and if I sound like that I am assuring you that is not what I really ment.

Anyway my comment that you have quoted don't relate to that issue, whether it is game bug or new flight model or something else, it is related to fixing 402 issues with conf.ini.

New flight model - for sure.
Bug or intended flight model - not sure.
Whether it is reccomended to fly with twisty stick and rocker rudder - not sure.

I can't say something for sure if I have no evidence to back it up.

BSS_CUDA
11-03-2005, 11:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
and reading through most of this and other threads it appears that its only american planes thats the problem. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



That is definately not true. Try the Fw190, it is much harder to aim than previous patches as well. Please try it to confirm. <span class="ev_code_RED">Stop with the "Oleg is biased" conspiracy please.</span> </div></BLOCKQUOTE> ya have to love selective editing of quotes

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">and reading through most of this and other threads it appears that its only american planes thats the problem. is this true or did I miss read?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

NOW READ THE REST OF THE STATEMENT

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">is this true or did I miss read? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

way to make yourself look biased faust I thought you were better than that. it was a question pure and simple or did you miss the ??? at the end,
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"><span class="ev_code_RED">Stop with the "Oleg is biased" conspiracy please.</span> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never made an accusation of bias and I resent being accused of such. I stated an observation and asked for confirmation. most of the ppl with problems of the wobbles appear to be flyin allied aircraft, while most of the ppl stating thier planes are rock solid seem to be flying german or russian aircraft. now that doesnt mean that there is not a problem on both sides

Scen
11-03-2005, 11:45 AM
Actually the blue planes have it too... The same issue.

The 109s have been changed for sure. They are a lot less stable.

Scendore

Interminate
11-03-2005, 11:57 AM
I have this bug where bullets slam into the wing of my plane and it comes off, the wing that is, and I crash into the ground. sorry wrong thread.

faustnik
11-03-2005, 11:58 AM
OUCH! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Sorry Cuda. I was quoting an edited quote. I should have looked for your original.

BSS_CUDA
11-03-2005, 12:05 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif NP faust

faustnik
11-03-2005, 12:13 PM
I do agree that this is more of a problem for the American a/c. The fw190 has the exact same issue but, all you need to hit with is a few rounds of 20mm to damage your oponent. In the American a/c, you need to hit with a stream of bullets in many cases. The Fw190's historic firepower advantage really pays off with a 4% hit rate.

Kuna15
11-03-2005, 12:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Interminate:
I have this bug where bullets slam into the wing of my plane and it comes off, the wing that is, and I crash into the ground. sorry wrong thread. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately all users are experiencing that bug. It is really annoying (so called "<span class="ev_code_black">black hole</span>" bug).
Devs said sometime in the past that they wont be able to fix it, it is hard coded in the sim and it would basically required for an FB core to be re-programmed. At that time, community accepted the explanation in a very civil manner.

That is why there is not much complaints around here about that issue.

NorrisMcWhirter
11-03-2005, 12:19 PM
Perhaps the reason why it affects certain aircraft more than others is a little more subtle? I'm not a mechanical engineer but would you expect something with a larger prop to have more of a gyroscopic effect than something with a smaller one? I'm thinking that the Corsair had a big prop...but I can't be ar*sed to compare it to the 109 prop which, supposedly, is more stable.

Ta,
Norris

BSS_CUDA
11-03-2005, 12:24 PM
yes it had a big prop but it had a HUGE tail also, probably the largest among fighter aircraft, that huge tail should make it more stable

GR142_Astro
11-03-2005, 01:16 PM
Yes, vertical stab is ginormous. Should see no yaw oscillation to the degree we have in FB.

http://www.airventuremuseum.org/images/Chance%20Vought%20F4U%20Corsair-1.jpg

http://www.air-and-space.com/20040516%20Chino/Dsc_0691%20F4U-1A%20NX83782%20right%20rear%20in%20flight%20l.jpg

http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/AirShows/Riverside2005/Highlights/F4u.jpg

chaikanut
11-03-2005, 04:44 PM
Hi all


I got the patch recently, havent had much time to play but I have noticed the following:

It is easier to aim accurately but the plane wobbles when you apply sudden input. This makes snapshots harder.

Joystick settings are everything, they give very different behaviour at the same aircraft.

Settings that start off low and with a small slope are far worse since you unavoidably overcontroll when turning with someone.

In the control menu of Il2, the square wobbles much more when the difference between the settings is large and the settings are low. It is steady when settings with no difference are high (close to 100) and becomes less steady if settings are close but lower.

The people who have the least problems use MSFF joystick.

The people who use MSFF joystick have usually high or very high settings.

Rudder input now needs constant monitoring due to changes when the plane speeds/slows.

thomb314 also made some excellent points earlier, maybe wobbling can be dumbed down for gameplay without affecting other flight properties.

Trimming needs to be constant and precise otherwise the wobbling becomes worse or the plane is unresponsive. It also interferes with accurate aiming. This is less of a problem with more sensitive settings.

It looks like that Il2 is optimized for sensitive hands and the in game settings are not very helpful. The short throw of our sticks plays the most important role in this; even the rudder pedals are not of the same width and throw as of ww2 planes.Ill try sometime to convert an old microsoft precision stick to a flight lever (1 meter) and test it with full sensitivity on settings.

Overall I like the changes in the patch. Wobbling can be dampened if u have the proper settings and fly carefully but there has to be a better way than that.

zombiewolf92553
11-03-2005, 05:11 PM
I a wondering what the hell game yoy guys are playing because I have NO wobble or any of the other problems.
Waht patch did you use? Not the leaked one I hope.


jeeze ..Much ado about Nothing

Grey_Mouser67
11-03-2005, 06:05 PM
Are you flying with CEM all clicked?

If you could post a track of a P-47 going through its manuevers and with rudder input I'd love to see it.

I've heard this several times and each time I've gotten an answer, the person was flying primarily stable aircraft like the Bf109 or they had their CEM not turned on...or they were tolerant of the wobble.

Worst aircraft for stability that I've flown so far since patch in order

P-47
Corair
P-51
Spitfire
P-40E
Yak 3P
Hellcat
La5Fn
Fw antons
Fw Dora
Bf 109's

that is just my opinion...from the La5 downwards, I would regard their stability as good to excellent..this is how it was for me in 4.01. The new patch was just a continuation of the old problems...can't figure out what the patch even did aside from bring us a great new map...that was great Ian..thanks!

Guns still sync'd, radiators still fubar, and yes look at the nationality of the planes on the top of the $h**list...amazingly they are primarily American with one Brit in there.

Anyone care to quote Webster on the definition of "bias"? then and only then should we discuss what bias is or isn't with a common meaning of that word.

Kuna15
11-03-2005, 06:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Grey_Mouser67:
If you could post a track of a P-47 going through its manuevers and with rudder input I'd love to see it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree 100%.
So far only my F4U "lazy feet" track can be downloaded from the link I posted in this thread.

btw I don't have no some weird all around wobble issues with this patch whatsoever.
However only issue albeit big one is the rudder -- it is unusable in great extent for me.
That also can be seen on track, it is not that I dislike rudder usage just the nose of my plane is all around the place when I do use it and I don't even kick it hard (left/right).

Anyway some tracks other than talk here would be really useful, especially like Grey_Mouser suggested manoeuvres with rudder usage in it (P-47, F4U if possible) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

HeinzBar
11-04-2005, 06:44 AM
S!,
What gets me is after hours of uninstalling, reinstalling, patching, tweaking joysticks, replacing .ini files, I'm still stuck w/ the disaster called 4.02m. I have to disagree w/the poster stating that MSFFB users have the least amount of problems. I have actually tried using my old MSFFB Pro when my MSFFB 2 didn't do the trick...same wobblin' mess.

If patch history is to be followed, I have a long wait until the next patch is released. I guess I've been lucky ever since the original IL2 by not having any major problems until now. I've resigned myself to flying until the next patch is released. I'll continue to try to fly the 4.02 wobbler, but it looks like I'm relagated to 4.01 offline.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

HB

stathem
11-04-2005, 08:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GR142_Astro:
Yes, vertical stab is ginormous. Should see no yaw oscillation to the degree we have in FB.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>



Sorry about this but, yep the whole vertical stab is huge, but the non-movable part is actually quite small in relation. Surely if you are overcorrecting slighty with that enormous rudder, you will get instability, or if it's not pointing exactly where it should to balance the yaw angle?

ie, maybe the oscillation is a function of Rudder size, not Stab size?

The Spit also has quite a large rudder-to-stab ratio. What about the other planes?

(sorry thinking on the fly here)

BSS_CUDA
11-04-2005, 08:28 AM
the F4U had a reputation as being a rock solid Munitions platform clear into Korea. when your dropping your Ordinance you need to be able to hit your target the FIRST time, I could understand the wobbles more from a plane that had a small rudder, less control surface, but Not the F4U

WOLFMondo
11-04-2005, 08:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
yes it had a big prop but it had a HUGE tail also, probably the largest among fighter aircraft, that huge tail should make it more stable </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whereas for its size the jug has a tiny tail and is the worst of the wobblers! Just compare it to the Spitfire XIV or the Tempest which have massive tail fins and similar engine output.

The problem with that argument is the D27 doesn't have a fillet but the other jugs are razor backs as are the early P51's and Mustang MkIII so they should be stable but in this sim they wobble too.

I'm still thinking some of this might be to do with over sensitive/too higher input stick settings.

HayateAce
11-04-2005, 09:49 AM
Hardly anything to do with stick settings. Constantly feels like rudder/stab have been shot away.

Interminate
11-04-2005, 10:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
Hardly anything to do with stick settings. Constantly feels like rudder/stab have been shot away. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have this problem too for the record. Its as if I lose control to the autopilot or something for a second. No input from me and the throttle % will flip a bit as well. Definitely never had this before the 4.02m patch


x45 stick

stathem
11-04-2005, 12:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
the F4U had a reputation as being a rock solid Munitions platform clear into Korea. when your dropping your Ordinance you need to be able to hit your target the FIRST time, I could understand the wobbles more from a plane that had a small rudder, less control surface, but Not the F4U </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, I didn€t mean to imply that I thought it was right and correct that the Corsair was unstable in the yaw, I was just thinking about why it should be so in terms of the software interpreting the forces generated by a particular a/c in terms of the FM €" you know, one flight model, under a groove and all that.

Ie if the non-movable part of the vertical stab is a constant acting as a yaw damper, perhaps the FM is not factoring in, or not factoring in enough, the yaw damping effect of the rudder(since that will be variable in any case and dependent on user input.)

Or perhaps it€s something else. An ex-pilots account of the DH Vampire I read mentioned that it was unstable in the yaw axis (which made gun accuracy difficult), and this was because it had a small keel area. Maybe the keel area of different aircraft isn€t properly defined (since that much more difficult to do than a simple €˜area of vertical stab€ calc. Note that there is little difference between the stability of razorbacks vs bubble tops in game. I wonder if the F2G was modelled if it would have a similar level of yaw instability to the F4U, when it was noted to be much more unstable in yaw.

VFA-195 Snacky
11-04-2005, 07:49 PM
I want the old flight models before the BOB beta stuff. If that means giving up the current improved P38 then so be it, but it's just not fun anymore and I'm tired of waiting month after Month hoping the next patch is different.
Yeah sure install an older version, but I only play online and i am forced to use whatever version is being used by servers.