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Fish6891
02-27-2005, 02:40 AM
I've always been one to enjoy the Focke-Wulfs, each and every one of them, including the TA. They are my favorite rides.

In the recent days however, I've decided to fly the 109 G6/AS for a change of pace and I must say it is neaterz! I've flown it around before, but only recently have I taken it up and flown it "seriously" if you know what I mean, pursuing a real feel for it and all of its quirks. Whats really neat about it is how much more easily it fares in a situation in which it is outnumbered without the energy advantage than the 190 does.

Its combination of virtues simply make it an incredible dogfighter.

A downside to the 109 though is the fact that you are often more likely to collide into a teamate sometimes than to get shot by the enemy. Does it make sense to have 12 109s dogfighting the same spitfire? What about when you've worked your way onto someones six and are about to take a shot, only to see yellow rounds fly over your wings, you think "Hispano!" and pull evasive, only to find out the rounds came from the 108 nose cannon of a 109 trying to "help" you down your prey.

This is the biggest downside to flying the 109, the fact that too often do 109 pilots throw
method and organization to the wind, like a pack of hungry piranhas, simultaneously endangering each other and delaying the defeat of their adversary.

Other than that the 109 is a nifty ride, gifted with a combination of flight characteristics that allow it to have a trick up its sleeve for almost any situation. I do not believe that the 109 is quite as dominant as the FW's, but it definitley comes close to coming close.

This leaves me wondering about the 109 what I've wondered about the FW's....is it unfair?

These aircraft have always been my favorites. The 109 was the first WWII fighter that I bothered to read about when I was a little kid, and the 190, which facinated me even more, I discovered soon after.

Should I feel contrition when flying my favorite aircraft, simply because they happen to be the most dominant aircraft in the sim? I can only hope that the upcoming SpitXIV and Tempest MarkV(Both of which I will often fly...especially the Tempest *salivates*) will prove to be worthy adversaries.

Regards,
Fish

(Btw, I also think the option to pick between 20mm and 30mm nose cannon in the G6/AS is really neat) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

VFA195-MaxPower
02-27-2005, 02:49 AM
uber is a strong word in this forum. I wouldn't really consider the fw 190 uber by any means. It simply is what it is: fast, twitchy and heavy armed.

Fish6891
02-27-2005, 02:54 AM
There I changed the title MaxPower, happy? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

WOLFMondo
02-27-2005, 02:59 AM
Fish you naughty traitor.

Fish6891
02-27-2005, 03:27 AM
Ey Mondo! I know YOU didn't like the 1 DeathKick on WC, wimp http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Its up to 2 now though....get back on WC so we can bomb their base in 190s like we use to! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Plus I've been working on using the mortars on the 190 with rocket delay against fighters and bomber formations....imagine the possibilities! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

F19_Ob
02-27-2005, 03:36 AM
The 109 was my main choice for a long time and I agree that along with the fw190 family its the dominant plane until the yak3 and La7 and some others of the later western fighters arrives.

The yak3 and La7 , for example, are not so much better but they posses the one thing that most earlier allied fighters did not have wich is accelleration and speed.
Earlier allied planes dont have enough Energy to be able to compete, and cant engage or disengage at will like the german ones.
Tactical Experts in the german fighters can fight untouched even against multiple enemies on occasion in a way that none of the earlier allied fighters can.

This is also one of the reasons why the russians lost so many planes in the beginning of the war.
It was not the training 'only' as many seem to belive, but also that they could not use offensive tactics to any greater extent since they didnt have enough accelleration and speed and thus had to rely on defensive tactics for the most part, and had to 'wait' for the germans to leave the scene.

Later when the planes became more comparable the russians also had gained in training but still the germans accelleration and speed was an issue.

----------------------

With this said I'll add that allied bullets still can kill any fighter if they hit (one cant outrun bullets) and an expert in an early allied fighter can be hard to fight or u might not be able to hit him, but he still wont be able to leave the fight because of his E-state, or catch a german fighter if it wants to leave.

a few thoughts

NorrisMcWhirter
02-27-2005, 03:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VFA195-MaxPower:
uber is a strong word in this forum. I wouldn't really consider the fw 190 uber by any means. It simply is what it is: fast, twitchy and heavy armed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heavily armed? It has four cannons which, like Oddball's tank from Kelly's Heroes, sometimes only serve to create pretty pictures, "man".

Carrying the 108 is the only way to make sure that you are going to down something in one pass nowadays. But that's how Oleg seems to like it.

CHeers,
Norris

Jazz-Man
02-27-2005, 04:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VFA195-MaxPower:
uber is a strong word in this forum. I wouldn't really consider the fw 190 uber by any means. It simply is what it is: fast, twitchy and heavy armed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heavily armed? It has four cannons which, like Oddball's tank from Kelly's Heroes, sometimes only serve to create pretty pictures, "man".

Carrying the 108 is the only way to make sure that you are going to down something in one pass nowadays. But that's how Oleg seems to like it.

CHeers,
Norris <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The MG151/20 is not historically correct, but it is far from useless. You have four of them after all!

And the MG-FF on the FW-190A-4 and A-5 are incredibly powerful.

NorrisMcWhirter
02-27-2005, 08:41 AM
But not as powerful as they should be.

Suppose we levelled the same argument if the .50s were underpowered (which they are not).

"Hey, you've got 6 or 8 of them, what's the problem?"

From that, I hope you can see how ridiculous your statement is.

Norris

Diablo310th
02-27-2005, 08:51 AM
Ya know...I keep reading about this stuff about marshmellow 20's and how 1 50 cal. round takes all controls out of a 109 or FW. Have any of you been hit with those marhmellows??? I have...more times than I care to admit. I certainly don't see or feel those marshmellows on my Jug. What I see are lots of holes and controls that don't work so well anymore. And as far as teh 1 50 cal hit rendering LW planes useless....tell that to the 109 the other night that I hit multiple times in the right wing only to have him zoom climb like a rocket without blacking out then turn onto my 6 and tear me up with those marshmellows. Marshmellows?? yeah rite. 1 50 cal hits?? yeah rite. Some of you saying this need to fly the other side sometimes. I've flown FW on several occasions....even teh TA which I admire and respect and I'll take your marshmellows over my 8 50's anyday. Lets ask Oleg to trade them out and see what happens. Ohh...and most of you know I have great respect for some of the Blue pilots...and some are great friends too.

NorrisMcWhirter
02-27-2005, 08:57 AM
Hi,

Just consult Sturmolog for the facts. Crank it up and see what it takes to down an enemy plane then compare that against the accepted value from real life.

If there is a discrepancy with the .50s, then I would totally support any claim of them being underpowered (I made that statement purely because Oleg said he changed them to be non-historical, in his view).

I find that I require 10+ 20mm hits to down most VVS aircraft - that doesn't stack up against historical information as I'm sure you will agree.

Cheers,
Norris

Diablo310th
02-27-2005, 09:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
Hi,

Just consult Sturmolog for the facts. Crank it up and see what it takes to down an enemy plane then compare that against the accepted value from real life.

If there is a discrepancy with the .50s, then I would totally support any claim of them being underpowered (I made that statement purely because Oleg said he changed them to be non-historical, in his view).

I find that I require 10+ 20mm hits to down most VVS aircraft - that doesn't stack up against historical information as I'm sure you will agree.

Cheers,
Norris <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Norris....I agree totally with you. It would be interesting to see (if the data was available). The problem is that Oleg has said there will be no changes...so we r stuck and have to live with what we have. I'm for more historical FM's and DM's. All I have ever asked for or expected was realism. Don't give me an uber Jug..just a realistic one. If Oleg changes any FM's or DM's because of whining....it's wrong.

JG7_Rall
02-27-2005, 10:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Diablo310th:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
Hi,

Just consult Sturmolog for the facts. Crank it up and see what it takes to down an enemy plane then compare that against the accepted value from real life.

If there is a discrepancy with the .50s, then I would totally support any claim of them being underpowered (I made that statement purely because Oleg said he changed them to be non-historical, in his view).

I find that I require 10+ 20mm hits to down most VVS aircraft - that doesn't stack up against historical information as I'm sure you will agree.

Cheers,
Norris <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Norris....I agree totally with you. It would be interesting to see (if the data was available). The problem is that Oleg has said there will be no changes...so we r stuck and have to live with what we have. I'm for more historical FM's and DM's. All I have ever asked for or expected was realism. Don't give me an uber Jug..just a realistic one. If Oleg changes any FM's or DM's because of whining....it's wrong. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I think the P47 is kinda messed up too. It should be really hard to down, like it is at some times, but mostly I find that its controls are knocked out very easily and small calliber fire can light its engine up too...

Airmail109
02-27-2005, 10:20 AM
When Fish flies a 190 it seems to become an LA7....hes just to **** good with em!

Platypus_1.JaVA
02-27-2005, 01:37 PM
Last time I tried, my 190 squatted F-4u's out of the sky like flies. It now seems that Oleg finally got the hang of energy modelling and all I can say that it feels like the Fw-190 just outfalls about everything else in the game. Good pilot's will use this advantage together with the heavy armament.

The Fw-190 is indeed a great, maybe even the greatest fighter in potential but, it comes with a 'manual'. Novice pilots will find it difficult to take-off right away with it.

tora-2
02-27-2005, 01:53 PM
Must admit I have wondered for a while whether machine guns in general are quite correct. In general terms you can't expect to down aircraft at any great distance with non cannon weapons regardless. Although we have come to accept that as realistic i have some doubts.

Read a decent account of a Tomahawk Pilot recently , iirc he was flying the IIb with two 50 cal and 4 .303 and he describes attacking a formation of Stuka I think the d model.

Basically he describes opening fire at 300 yards with a short burst but he miscalculated deflection ...... however the burst hit both numbers 2 and 3 in the formation. The one immediately burst into flames, the other lost 1000 feet then burst into flames.

I'm honestly not knocking the DM in the game, but I'd struggle to see this happening at a 300 yard range ?

LeadSpitter_
02-27-2005, 04:14 PM
fish is being honest, and his skill in the 190s is great. I agree with everything he said.

Spit9 is only good against poor german tactics, low speed turnfighting, it takes along time for many patchs of the 109s which use to out turn the spitfire on the deck now they cant anymore and still try to do it. It is a very close turn radius still but now the spit comes out ahead.

I still feel the 190s dont have enough elevator authority for example vs the p47 in a turnfight.
But I also feel the 190 does not go into a hard to recover stall you can flop around and instantly recover.

the 190a's have to be one of my favorite planes in the game, I always liked them more then the 109s even in sturmovik when the 190a8 was just a horable plane and struggled to do well against any aircraft.

The biggest advantage some ac have in this game is being able to kill in one pass with a 1-3 second burst at .50 .30 range oppossed to ac that take 2-4 passes to down a enemy at .20 - .10 range.

I think the 190 is definatly the better ac and requires alot of e management bnz passes and no turn fighting like the p38 p51 p47

as for the turn fighters la lagg yak spit 109 all thier elevators get compressibility before the 109 but they can out turn the 109 lower speeds.

to me the ac that has the best highspeed handling, best top speed, and breakup speed always having the ability to choose when to engauge and disengauge at will and kill in 1 short burst everytime longer ranges hold a huge advantage

best planes in game go to the 190 in my book then the ki84 and then yak3.

Tora i agree with you for example lots of bob guncam footage Hurricane and spit taking about a 3 second burst with 8 .303s to bring down a he111.

another example the hurricat "ship catapult launched hurricane with 8 .303s" vs the heavily defended condor bomber which was used to spot and communicate to the german wolfpacks "subs" of allied shipping.

I seen alot of footage of p40s shooting down ju88 bf110s ju52s in north africa in a short 2-3 second burst causing them to immediatly flame then the secondary explosions is what tore the wings off.

another example is the ki43 which did extremely well against the p39 p40 corsair wildcat and hellcat, thats only two 7.62 mgs getting 2-3 ac shot down many occasions.

the thing i find interesting is in all the guncamera footage i own about 18hrs worth of 1 minute clips from all nations which is how long the guncam film reel lasted.

All the mg weapons get kills much futher range then all the cannon ac the clips are very close range russian later war british and german.

the high octane gasolines were just as flameable in selfsealing tanks from a incideary api, even flak shell fragments were known the bring down bombers from the hot shrapnel hitting the fuel tanks and igniting.

The only ac that i seen that took more then 3 seconds of hits from any ammo type were b17s p47 and corsair. I have seen some clips of 190s take alot of hits as well thru the outer wing but as soon as the innerwing and fuselages got hit instant fireball and pilot bails immediately.

Same with the mustang and spitfire as soon as the innerwing and fuselage got hit they caught fire.

I also seen footage of a p47 which took a 88 shell hit dead in the nose low alt from a train with aa cars and rtb with 8 cylinders left and 2 prop blades 3rd one had many pieces missing and 4th blade completely blown off, stuff like that is extremely rare lucky and rarely happened.

The thing that gets me is in the eastern front guncam footage i have is yaks la and lagg all burn like zeros from very light hits 1-2 burst.

Many russian ac were shot down with 7.92 only in a couple bursts same.

It really makes me wonder how BOB is going to be german 20mm and small call nose mounted mg vs hurricanes with 8 or 12 .303 and spits with 8 .303 only, becuase its certainly not done very well in this game.

SnapdLikeAMutha
02-27-2005, 05:41 PM
Leadspitter

From whence did you get your footage?

It would be interesting to see - is it DLable from somewhere? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LeadSpitter_
02-27-2005, 08:56 PM
i been collecting since a kid have alot of old reels and projector, I use to collect it as a kid and there use to be trading webrings collectors would trade clips

the dvd and vhs ones i purchased from here

www.rareaviation.com (http://www.rareaviation.com)

http://www.historicaviation.com/historicaviation/search_results.po;jsessionid=7GiZbbxNtM1KAJ_QlorBi H_4(0CppkxPt)?product=&category=&search=gun+cam

a bunch of others too from different sites some german sites http://www.planestuff.com/lufguncamfoo.html 1944 guncam footage and other sites, I also have the timelife series i recently got which has alot of great quality footage.

FatBoyHK
02-28-2005, 07:26 AM
109 a dominance fighter?? lol

It can dominate a pony or a jug in low-alt TnB, No doubt about that.....but what else??

Fish6891
02-28-2005, 07:31 AM
Everything is going according to my plan, my thread is quickly evolving into an MG151/20 thread, with some personal/squadron flamage on the side! Its the greater scheme of things! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif lol

and Fatboy, like I said....it has a trick up its sleeve for pretty much ANY situation, you are truly underestimating it.

PBNA-Boosher
02-28-2005, 11:28 AM
Much like the precision art of fencing, the 109 is the florett, or foil, and the 190 is the saber.

Or something like that.

crazyivan1970
02-28-2005, 03:12 PM
Good post Fish.

@Crash - Nice recruiting attempt..but you can`t afford him http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

@All, can we please NOT have 20mm discussion in every topic

WOLFMondo
02-28-2005, 05:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fish6891:
Ey Mondo! I know YOU didn't like the 1 DeathKick on WC, wimp http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Its up to 2 now though....get back on WC so we can bomb their base in 190s like we use to! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Plus I've been working on using the mortars on the 190 with rocket delay against fighters and bomber formations....imagine the possibilities! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im afraid I've been away due to work and stuff. I'll be back on soon enough. It wasn't the 1 death kick that bothered me, it was the lack of players during the 1 death kickhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Besides, you need to trade in that nasty German plane as soon as the Tempest appearshttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

x__CRASH__x
02-28-2005, 05:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
@Crash - Nice recruiting attempt..but you can`t afford him http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It sure sounded good, but it was in response to an open question he made: What are squadrons about?

MEGILE
02-28-2005, 06:29 PM
pffft, lot of cleaning went on in here?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

He didn't mention the 20mm http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

To answer the Question.. Fish - Yes.

Fish6891
03-01-2005, 08:33 AM
Thank you Megile.

(Hey...is it just me or did Sir.Robins reply disappear from hear along with a bunch of others?)

MEGILE
03-01-2005, 09:22 AM
Infact, the answer is no, I changed my mind.

FW-190D9 is best, but it isn't the easiest. No it isn't unfair. When the Tempest and Spitfire XIV arrives, you will know the RAF is on more equal terms.

Spitfire XIV will own D9 up high Fish.
But you will still be able to do that roll and dive thingy till the cows come home.

FatBoyHK
03-01-2005, 10:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fish6891:
and Fatboy, like I said....it has a trick up its sleeve for pretty much ANY situation, you are truly underestimating it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is the pilot, not the plane. It is all about fighting with your plane's adv and avoiding your enemy's adv. 109 has its tricks, but so to the USAAF and RAF planes. I am much more confortable on a Mustang, but this alone does not mean it is uber.

however, I think 109 is not suitable for mutli-plane fighting, like what we have in a dogfight server. When enemies are everywhere, speed is life. 109, bar G10 and K4, is slow. And at high speed its handling is bad, this greatly limits the choice a 109 pilot can have, in both offensive and defensive situation.

In a 1v1 deathmatch (disengage = lose), 109 is a good plane to start with. But in other scenarios, there are better choices.

Fish6891
03-01-2005, 11:06 AM
MEGILE: I don't doubt it, I dont think it'll be that much of a bigger deal to me at low to medium alts than the spitIX, I'm looking forward to the high alt challenge though :] (plus theres always the Ta :P)
Btw when you say "that roll/dive thingy"....you talkin about that "roller-coaster scissors" thing I did when we we're testing Mg151/20 and Hispano? Cause if thats what ur talkin about I agree, but if its not I'd like to know what ur talkin about.

FATBOYHK: Yes speed is life under many situations, for example, in a P51 purely using an energy advantage against a large number of enemies, it allows you to get in, hit, get out of gun range and either come back or make an escape if you want.

I am however talking about doing a hack/slash/parry dogfight where you don't plan to run, and you knife fight multiple bogies all at once. To much speed can actually get you killed in a situation like that, regardless of what plane you're flying.
It no longer becomes a matter of simply maximizing your energy state, it becomes a matter of managing it so that it is at a level that is optimal for your situation, optimal for making the move you want to make, at any instantaneous point in time during the dogfight, and when it comes down to this type of fast paced energy management the 109 is King, period.

So again I have to disagree, combine the 109's supremacy at E-management with all of its other flight characteristics and its makes, as I said b4, and incredible dogfighter. Flown well it is capable of pulling off excellent offensive/defensive manuevers, reversals, etc. It performs stellarly, outnumbered or not.

You're probably thinking of a situation where you are up against several enemies, and you have the energy advantage, and you are making high speed slashing attacks at them. Yes, as you mentioned b4, the 109 has not so good high speed elevator, so it doesnt do this as well as say a mustang.
Imagine this scenario though, you're flying along and you run into multiple bogeys and they're all either co-energy with you, or have more energy than you, you have no energy advantage whatsoever, and you have no help......give me a 109 over a P51 any day.

Btw, I never said the 109s and FW's were uber, I just said they dominate the sim.

Regards,
Fish

Fish6891
03-01-2005, 05:36 PM
O, and @MONDO:

I'll fly allied a bit more often that I do now when Tempest comes out.....but you know very well that it is impossible to permanently tear me away from my Focke-Wulfs, they are my favorites :]

BlackShrike
03-01-2005, 07:01 PM
fact of matter.

in fullreal since most who post on this topic fly fullreal.

its not the PLANES.
its not individual PILOTS either in FR
its the TEAMWORK in fullreal that makes the planes dangerous. pick any plane in WC and then pick the two best pilots winging one another.

basically the plane dont matter. yea i know thats not proper english but its a fact.

two good pilots in the worst plane in Warclouds can always beat the greatest pilot in the best plane even if he has many teamates. if they dont wing him well.

thats about all there is to the game.basically

nickdanger3
03-01-2005, 07:47 PM
Re: the 1 vs 2 DK Warclouds - amen Mondo

FatBoyHK
03-01-2005, 09:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fish6891:
__FATBOYHK_: Yes speed is life under many situations, for example, in a P51 purely using an energy advantage against a large number of enemies, it allows you to get in, hit, get out of gun range and either come back or make an escape if you want.

I am however talking about doing a hack/slash/parry dogfight where you don't plan to run, and you knife fight multiple bogies all at once. To much speed can actually get you killed in a situation like that, regardless of what plane you're flying.
_It no longer becomes a matter of simply maximizing your energy state, it becomes a matter of managing it so that it is at a level that is optimal for your situation, optimal for making the move you want to make, at any instantaneous point in time during the dogfight, and when it comes down to this type of fast paced energy management the 109 is King, period._

So again I have to disagree, combine the 109's supremacy at E-management with all of its other flight characteristics and its makes, as I said b4, and incredible dogfighter. Flown well it is capable of pulling off excellent offensive/defensive manuevers, reversals, etc. It performs stellarly, outnumbered or not.

You're probably thinking of a situation where you are up against several enemies, and you have the energy advantage, and you are making high speed slashing attacks at them. Yes, as you mentioned b4, the 109 has not so good high speed elevator, so it doesnt do this as well as say a mustang.
Imagine this scenario though, you're flying along and you run into multiple bogeys and they're all either co-energy with you, or have more energy than you, you have no energy advantage whatsoever, and you have no help......give me a 109 over a P51 any day.

Btw, I never said the 109s and FW's were uber, I just said they dominate the sim.

Regards,
Fish <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

May be a 109 is better plane if you are being outnumbered, or having less E than your enmeies. But why fight on in this disavantaged position if you can simply run away? Remember, we are not playing airquake http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I have yet to see any pilot who can won in a 1v3 co-alt co-e matchup (even 1v2 is hard enough).... but even if it happens, it is the pilot, not the plane http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In other faster planes, escape is an option, but in a 109, it is not... You can't outrun, you can't outdive, you can't outroll in high speed. You are required to fight the way out, by killing some of your enemies and scare away anothers. If your enemies are not noob, think about the chance of success, and then think about what would happen if you are on a pony or a fw, where you can run away, or play some drag'n bag.

Because it is not airquake, I always put my virtual life at my first priority. Therefore I think the ability to engage and disengage at will is one of the most important characteristic of my ride.

Fish6891
03-01-2005, 10:17 PM
Roger FatBoy, ability to control a fight with speed is the most important I agree. All I'm saying is that if you do get into such a situation the 109 does well. Regardless, the 109 IS pretty **** fast(G6/AS and later), and rolls VERY well, just not too well at high speed, it dives well, just not as well as say a 51 or 47, turns VERY well at low and medium speeds, climbs like mad, deccelerates/accelerates like its nothing, and more. Its a dogfighter and it does it well. You're chances of survival are always good as long as you're thinking fast and situationally aware, outnumbered or not.
Someone made some sort of comparison on this forum a while back, dont remember it but think of it this way.

109 is to Broad-Sword as Fw is to Spear, get what I'm saying?

FatBoyHK
03-01-2005, 11:34 PM
I must agree, that 109 is a better plane for me if I am being caught slow and low.... Pony can't stand a chance in this situation...

But I am not sure, isn't spitfire a even better choice? the roll-rate of the clipped wing version isn't that bad http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Fish6891
03-02-2005, 03:57 AM
Yes I very much like that CW FatBoy :]

In my opinion though the 109 is a better choice than the spitfire. Sure the spitfire can do sustained turns very nicely, and holds its E very well, and the CW can roll(at low/medium speeds) but you simply cannot come close to manipulating your energy in a spitfire as well as you can in a 109. The 109 will much more readily bleed or generate the E for you, whilst the spit is only good at retaining its E, this is where the 109 has it beat.
I think the only advantage the spits really got is its a much easier plane to handle(this is realistic) than the 109.

If you plan on flying high against a 109 tho, take a spit HF and you will have the advantage, what I said above is for low to medium alts.

Regards,
Fish

(O and FatBoy, I know you put a lot of importance upon high speed handling (and I understand why, I AM an FW guy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif), but the fact that the spit can handle somewhat more nicely than the 109 at high speeds simply means its easier to BnZ in the spitfire than it is on the 109. In a dogfight against a smart 109 pilot, the spits high speed handling will not be of significant help.)

FatBoyHK
03-02-2005, 08:35 AM
what would you do if you want to bleed energy on a 109? any special technique in doing that? and what make a 109 such a good E bleeder?

GUARD4000
03-02-2005, 12:19 PM
FatboyHK,the 109 can gain E in a very short time,cuz it has a great horsepower/weight.And it also has a great low speed handling.So when 109s dogfight,their first goal is to make the enemy slow down.To achieve that he need to fly hard(usually a lot rolls),and many people will follow these moves when they get both Angel adv and E adv because they think they can get the lead to shoot.In most cases they couldnt get the chance to shoot before they become too slow to manuever.The 109s lose a lot E too,but soon they can get some E and cuz his great low speed handling he will get a chance to shoot the enemy before the enemy can run away(the enemy wont have enough E to do a effective defensive manuever).The late 109s have a BIG cannon,so they need only one chance,just one chance.

Von_Rat
03-02-2005, 12:38 PM
fish you noob 109 flyer,, get back in a fw,, where you belong. and leave the real men in the 109s. lol.

Sir.Robin-1337
03-02-2005, 12:49 PM
If i recall correctly, the FW-190D9 has never had the pleasure of being "new best".
In my opinion, this flight sim has come full circle since the early days of FB 1.0, back when yea did suckle from thine mothers teat young Fish.

A good pilot could do better in the right airplane. Fish, I emplore you, choose K4. Then you will have the privilege of being my wingman on Warclouds.

One day, I may upon thee bestow, the honour of joining my very merry men.

Von_Rat
03-02-2005, 01:39 PM
do fish have teats,,,lol

geetarman
03-02-2005, 01:58 PM
As a regular WC flyer (under a different call sign), I see many, many good flyers on both sides.

Fatboy makes alot of good points (in an indirect way) about the Mustang in the context of its OVERALL performance in a FR server. I do think that, in sum, it offers the pilot a wider range of options in terms of getting to the fight, winning the fight or leaving the fight than any other plane.

The ME-109 I find to be a very, very dangerous opponent, particularly at low altitude. This is so because it robs the Mustang of it's two main advantages (level and dive speed).

Somewhat curiously, I am not as impressed with any of the 190's. Seems odd when they had such a fearsome reputation in RL. To me, a 190 had better hit the e/a quick (i.e. on the first pass) and not stick around if spotted. Otherwise, it seems to be fairly easy to at least damage and remove as a threat, particulalry in a Mustang.

Of course, I've been blown out of the sky by 190's on many occaisions, but one gets the sense that they tend to attack and quickly move out of harm's way rather than get involved in a true energy fight, much less a classic dog fight.

Fish6891
03-02-2005, 08:56 PM
GEETARMAN: 190 dominates the sim, be sure. You probably feel this way because as Megile said b4, the 190 is definitely not an easy aircraft to fly, so most ppl take the easy route. The easiest way to fly it is to do what you've described....hit and run, and it does it well. That is however the mere tip of the iceberg that is its capabilities.
Low-Wingloading is the easiest virtue to take advantage and get a handle of when it comes down to ANY aircraft in my opinion, and this is one virtue that the 190 DEFINITLEY does not have, and so it becomes difficult to understand how to take advantage of the flight characteristics that are intrinsic to it(Which are more than enough to make it a deadly fighter under pretty much any circumstances).

I've been typing for 12 hours now (Blasted college paper I should've started three days ago), so I'm not going to get into details, I already did so in the WC forum http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, but I will say this;
You know how people go about saying, "In 190 one must fly high and fast at all times, one must not dedicate oneself to a fight, one must run if engaged without an energy advantage, one must, one must, one must....", NO, there is no "by the book" way to fly any aircraft, especially not the 190.
Following such advice will only keep you in a limited mindset that will prevent you from pushing the 190 to its capabilities. Some of my most exciting and fun 1v1s have ended up low and slow(and eventually resulted in a dismembered spit/pony/p63), you'll often find me merrily twisting around down low in an A9 with several spits as long as I've got a good wingman with me like NIK14 or EMB or better yet both of them (Remember those names, they dislike publicity http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif).
Yes its always great to have the energy advantage, the Focke-Wulfs in my opinion are the aircraft that make the most out of an E advantage, they can do some amazing stuff with E, but that doesnt mean one should fear not having it. O, and btw, 190s in pairs or larger groups are "invincible" given the pilots know a thing or two about their aircraft.
So yea, the reason you probably aren't very impressed by the 190 is because the fact that it is such a quirky aircraft, the fact that it requires so much more patience to get a feel for it than other aircraft, results in pilots not really knowing how to do much in it other hit-and-run.
As for what you say about the P51, its one of my favorite aircraft, whats nice about it is that its not REALLY bad at anything, then again its not REALLY good at anything.

FATBOY: Throttling down on a 109 makes it slow down incredibly fast, manuevering while throttling down works even better. What GUARD described is just 1 of an infinite number of options you have when being engaged in a 109. To be honest I often don't want them to lose their speed, makes things easier for me dependin on the situation. Like I said before, E-MANAGEMENT, not E-Maximization when dogfighting in the 109...too much E can get you killed.

SIR.ROBIN: FB 1.0 was around in the 1986-87 period? I'm only old enough to clearly remember 3.02, though I have vague memories of 3.01.

I'm planning on hopping from the G6/AS to the G10 soon to see how I like that....maybe I'll mess around with the K4 sometime soon, then we can have intellectual discussions/arguments about it, and the D9's superiority to it, over tea and crumpets :]

Regards,
Fish

GUARD4000
03-03-2005, 03:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fish6891:
_FATBOY_: Throttling down on a 109 makes it slow down incredibly fast, manuevering while throttling down works even better. What GUARD described is just 1 of an infinite number of options you have when being engaged in a 109. To be honest I often don't want them to lose their speed, makes things easier for me dependin on the situation. Like I said before, E-MANAGEMENT, not E-Maximization when dogfighting in the 109...too much E can get you killed.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Fish,in my post i was explaining what would 109s do when being engaged,not what shall we do when being engaged by 109s.So infact what i said was that the 109s want the enemy to slow down,not the enemy want the 109s to slow down------my have the same opinion.

And about G6/AS,G10 and K4,G10 is faster than G6/AS and about as manueverable as G6/AS(i cant feel the difference),while K4 is faster than G10 but less manueverable than G6/AS and G10.In my opinion G10 is the best 109,but many people use G6/AS and K4,not G10.I think that is because some cool guys have made quite a few incredible skins for G6/As and K4 on the il2skins.com.

Fish6891
03-03-2005, 03:51 AM
Ya GUARD, I was talking about the same thing, what I like to do at times when I AM THE ONE piloting the 109. Often I like to let the enemy stay fast while managing my E to work his abundance of E against him. That works often depending upon the circumstances.

GUARD4000
03-03-2005, 04:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fish6891:
Ya GUARD, I was talking about the same thing, what I like to do at times when I AM THE ONE piloting the 109. Often I like to let the enemy stay fast while managing my E to work his abundance of E against him. That works often depending upon the circumstances. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Fish,that is cool.I always think i will be ok if i dont slow down when engaging 109s.Now u have some tricks to defeat the enemy in a 109 when he stays fast.That means i will have to be more careful when engaging 109s.So i am really interested in those tricks.Do u have any tracks?

FatBoyHK
03-03-2005, 04:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fish6891:
Ya GUARD, I was talking about the same thing, what I like to do at times when I AM THE ONE piloting the 109. Often I like to let the enemy stay fast while managing my E to work his abundance of E against him. That works often depending upon the circumstances. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think in this way, fish.... If I have excessive E, even I can't make a good run you can't do anything against me... The real problem, however, would appear if I have just a little bit more E than my opponent, and I am unable to bleed it, nor build it in time.... I will overshoot, but unable to escape, becoming a ideal target for my opponent.

Indeed, if I have just a little bit more E than my opponent, I would pay 200% more attention... In some case (If I smell something "fishy") I will hold my attack, or skip it altogether, especailly when I am low (because I can alrways dive away at altitute http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

MEGILE
03-03-2005, 06:02 AM
Fish the roll and dive thing I am referring to is....

If the Spitfire bounces a FW-190D9 at high speed, around 850KPH and the D9 was cruising at around 400KPH the Spitfire can do very little to meneuvre if the D9 spots the attack.
At those sorts of speeds the Spitfire's roll rate is extremely low, while the fast cruising D9 retains its amazing roll rate.
As the XIV comes in, the D9 can just roll away to the side and put his nose down. The Spitfire can do very little to react to the D9 doing this.
If the XIV cares for his life he should just zoom back up again, while you go and get some altitude back somewhere else on the map.

This is how it was in real life, but be sure in a dogfight server... I wouldn't be surprised if the Spit throttle back rolled over and tried to follow you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

Fish6891
03-03-2005, 06:25 AM
Rgr, that would work, in fact the D9 pilot could instead of diving away continue to dodge him and close the energy gap, and then figure out something funky to pull when the gap starts to close.

Forcing the spit into a "roller-coaster" scissors will also probably work, in fact most tactics that work against the Spit9 will probably work against the Spit14 at low-medium alts, the people who are gonna find themselves in a bit of trouble tho are the FW pilots who are use to doing only hit-and-run...running will still be possible but not as easy as b4. Way up high though that 14 is really gonna r0xx0rz b0xx0rz much more-so than the spit9.

Like I said b4 unless I'm at high alt I don't see the spit14 being a much bigger deal than the spit9, its the TEMPEST that I'm really looking forward to. THAT will most likely make things really interesting. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MEGILE
03-03-2005, 06:33 AM
I think the Spit XIV pilot would have to be realy careless to loose an energy advantage against a D9 at 25,000FT.
But stranger things have happened http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Fish6891
03-03-2005, 06:41 AM
Rgr, I'm assuming the Spit will continue making dives and the 190 will continue to dodge and climb, dodge and climb. Eventually when the energy gap starts to close the spit will probably just try to latch on and go for the kill, this is where the 190 could pull off funky stuffs.

A smart spit pilot will deny any sort of opportunity for a reversal or anything of the sort and will climb as soon as he notices the gap closing.....but we aren't all rocket scientists are we? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

In this case the D9 will be forced to either get help or dive away and come back Co-E or better yet with more E than the spit.....another dumb thing the spit can do though is attempt to follow the 190 in his dive, I don't doubt that many ppl will screw themselves over in this manner http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

MEGILE
03-03-2005, 06:46 AM
T'aye I've done it... seen a D9 and known it was fish, pointed my nose down and watched my ailerons pop off.

Although, wonder how this will affect things in BOB when compression at high altitudes is modelled correctly.
Bf-109s may get p1ssed at Spitfires having that edge.

Fish6891
03-03-2005, 06:55 AM
Well thats also nice, if spit disintegrates himself, but I was referring to the fact that its really easy to reverse spits when they chase you :]

geetarman
03-03-2005, 10:13 AM
Fish - S! I can understand your point about the potential of the 190. That said, many of the WC fliers appear not to have figured it out yet.

Also, at any rate, any of the craft in the WC servers are capable of being the best! It boils down to tactical situations. The planes facing each other have relatively slim differences between them if you really think about it. The best pilots I've seen are the ones that seem smarter than the others.

Fly smart and you'll be enthrolled with your plane. You are one of the good ones and can be successful in any of the planes you fly. Because of that, do really think that one particular plane is the best? I'm moving beyond this idea. Each plane can kill and evade. Funny, I think I fly the Mustang because I grew-up loving it. If I liked a FW-190, I'd fly that. In these limited planeset servers, plane type is less of an issue for me.

FatBoyHK
03-03-2005, 10:43 AM
yes, very true greetarman, every plane in the WF planeset are very well balanced, it is IMO why WF server are more popular among pro players.

I think, given enough time and motivation, everyone can be successful on any one of these plane.... but motivation seen to be a big problem for me, I love Mustang much more than other planes.

I tried 109 for one day only, but after I finally figured out about its engine management (fried 5 engines in the process, I was an absolute n00b), I became productive immediately, and scored 4 in one sorties. It was my first 4-kills sorties after flying online for 3 weeks at that time. Not bad for a n00b, right? But after that I went back to my Mustang. it is just a game, I would do whatever I want to make myself happy. Which plane is the best? It is not a meaningful question. I think, the best plane is the plane I love the most.

May be one day I will spend more time on other "better" plane... but not now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

geetarman
03-03-2005, 01:17 PM
S! Fatboy. I think you are served well in the Mustang (I've seen you many times). Besides it being a personal favorite, I do think the P-51 offers any pilot a very good PACKAGE as an airplane, provided, of course, that you keep it where it's most happy.

Drifter_Bob
03-17-2005, 08:04 AM
I may be coming from a different perspective since I have Il2 FB AEP and dont have Pacific yet, and I've only flown in Ubi rooms for about a year and haven't tried hyperlobby yet, so i dont know if A) the flight models have changed in PF or B) if the pilots are much better in hyperlobby...

but having said that, I fly P-40E or P-40M and have very little trouble with any version of 109 or 190 below about 3000 meters unless they start with a big E advantage. Only one or two pilots to really watch out for, otherwise the only way a 109 gets me is blindsiding me or ganging up.

I'm also very familiar with the rolling scissors, throttle chopping techniques. They can be tricky, and if you dont get them right when they start this gambit it can take a little hwile, but I can almost always get them. The P-40 can roll with 109, dive with them, out turn esp. by extending flaps to pull lead quickly, and using throttle and WEP can you usually catch them... sometimes when I know it's just a one on one fight I will even drop wheels to keep them from overshooting so i can get the kill.

190 can get away if they have the E, but when they try to BnZ I often catch them while they are just starting to extend.

Of course, I really dont know if the flight models have changed. I actually felt for a while that the 109 was too weak in Il2 FB/AEP, esp. in accelleration.

DB

WOLFMondo
03-17-2005, 08:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sir.Robin-1337:
If i recall correctly, the FW-190D9 has never had the pleasure of being "new best". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cause its always been 'the best':P

Some people can't get the best out of it is the problem:P

MEGILE
03-17-2005, 08:38 AM
This thread is over-modelled

ploughman
03-17-2005, 09:04 AM
so when's the Spit XIV coming to play? Fw 190 D9 and the late 109s don't even have a properly boosted IX or a XVI to play with, I think it's unfair on them myself as it's clearly allowed them to develop an unwarrented and overinflated sense of self worth.

ploughman
03-17-2005, 09:08 AM
By the way, I like the balls on that P-40 driver, coming on here and saying he had no trouble owning Fws and 109s. I hope its true, pure pilotage. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

OldMan____
03-17-2005, 09:16 AM
Last time I faced Fish in a 109 was yesterday at greatergreen. I jumped on him and other 2 blues (in a p38j).. when he saw me he managed to make a half barell roll and brake so fast and strong that I had to dismiss him as atarget and take the other guy... It took 3 minutes after that with him chasing me around.. and I tried everything but he managed to put a 30 mm in my left engine.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Drifter_Bob
03-17-2005, 01:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ploughman:
By the way, I like the balls on that P-40 driver, coming on here and saying he had no trouble owning Fws and 109s. I hope its true, pure pilotage. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If Caldwell, Duke, Kuznetsov and 100 some odd other European theater P-40 aces could do it, why cant I?

Did they change the flight models of the P-40, 109, and / or 190 since FB / AEP?

For that matter, in REAL LIFE (tm) the P-39 owned the 190 and 109 over the Russian front. What am I missing here?



Also, how do you link to these servers like greatergreen etc., I had assumed these servers y'all keep referring to go through Hyperlobby but somebody posted that Hyperlobby is down? I'm throughly confused. But I really want to find out now if my P-40 skills on ubi.com hold up to all these super Luftwaffe pilots I keep reading about here... Are these all Pacific Fighters only servers?

Suddenly I'm very eager to fly.

DB

P.S.
Anybody remember me, 'Drifter Bob', from Ubi?