PDA

View Full Version : Landing Practice?



Spad_13
10-07-2008, 08:28 PM
Is there a practice sim on this game to help one perfect the delicate art of... landing on a runway? Not the carrier landings. How to bring her down onto the tarmac. Maybe lessons on what one's approach speed should be, when to lower the gear, when to deploy flaps?

No matter what I do, it winds up the same- a mangled heap!

Spad_13
10-07-2008, 08:28 PM
Is there a practice sim on this game to help one perfect the delicate art of... landing on a runway? Not the carrier landings. How to bring her down onto the tarmac. Maybe lessons on what one's approach speed should be, when to lower the gear, when to deploy flaps?

No matter what I do, it winds up the same- a mangled heap!

ImMoreBetter
10-07-2008, 09:24 PM
I was half way through typing a long tutorial when I remembered this;

Zeus-Cat's Straight From the Farm Campaign (http://mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=2147)

Click "Download Now!" under the picture on the right.

Download it, unzip it, and follow the instructions in the 'readme' file.

Start a new campaign, and you are off. Play until you get to the landing missions.


Remember; Practice. Practice. Practice. You'll never learn without practice.

X32Wright
10-07-2008, 10:19 PM
for me the ideal approach speed is 210-180kph with gear down and landing flaps. This works in every plane in the game except the He-162 and Me-163.

Your power on approach should be at 35% with your speed near the touchdown at 210-180kph. Put your power on 35% on appraoch even if ur speed is higher as long as when before u actually touch down that you speed is 210-180kph.

WTE_Galway
10-07-2008, 10:54 PM
Easy quick landing practice ....


1. Go to multiplayer
2. Start a new dogfight server with takeoffs turned off
3. select a home base and aircraft
4. hit fly, you will spawn above an airfield ready to try a landing.

M_Gunz
10-07-2008, 10:56 PM
They're very easy to set up in the Full Mission Builder. Pick a map, pick a plane, pick an
airfield (concrete type is easiest to see, Crimea has a few) and set up two way points out
a way from landing far enough to get stabilized and the third for landing.

Save that in an offline folder, change the plane (leaving the rest) and save that under a
different name, etc until you have all the planes you want to use.

A little time with the FMB is good, you can use it to set up missions the way a pool player
will set up practice shots in spare time.

I find that putting ground objects down near the ends (off to the side) of a grass strip makes
it easier to find from air, btw.

buzzsaw1939
10-07-2008, 11:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by X32Wright:
for me the ideal approach speed is 210-180kph with gear down and landing flaps. This works in every plane in the game except the He-162 and Me-163.

Your power on approach should be at 35% with your speed near the touchdown at 210-180kph. Put your power on 35% on appraoch even if ur speed is higher as long as when before u actually touch down that you speed is 210-180kph. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif

dirkpit7
10-08-2008, 01:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by X32Wright:
for me the ideal approach speed is 210-180kph with gear down and landing flaps. This works in every plane in the game except the He-162 and Me-163.

Your power on approach should be at 35% with your speed near the touchdown at 210-180kph. Put your power on 35% on appraoch even if ur speed is higher as long as when before u actually touch down that you speed is 210-180kph. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed buzzsaw.

The landing speed and power on approach depends of the plane. You would have difficulties trying to put a Zero down at those speeds, and 35% is not enough power for FW190, for example (depends of descending angle too, but generally).

X32Wright
10-08-2008, 01:34 AM
Just go try it LOL I have used this approach on every plane in the game specially FW 190s and Zeroes which are planes that I fly often. Granted that the 109 needs to have a bit of a fast and angled aproach but the 35% throttle always works and ur aim is to actually have 210-180kph right before your wheels touch the ground and doesnt matter if u were at 320kph at .35 from the strip or at 250kph at .51 just need to maintain the desired speed before you touch down.

The point is adjust your throttle if ur faster or lower depending on your alt and distance but once u get to 210-180kph maintain your throttle at 35% until u touch down.

M_Gunz
10-08-2008, 01:50 AM
Well I don't "like" to touch wheels to ground at takeoff speed as it leaves me with enough
speed to bounce. I get my flaps up immediately as well, to not bounce.

Coming in, I like to keep prop speed high and power low, idle just before touch down again to
lower energy state. Fast prop with low power lets me control my speed better. Rads wide open
and canopy open if possible helps make me draggy, with all of these in some of the planes I'm
still running 25% power coming in and maybe 15-% getting very close to ground when the plane
starts "ballooning" on modeled ground effect.

I've read about "short field takeoffs" where you get off the ground but stay within half a
wingspan and building up speed. It's supposed to allow great acceleration IRL due to lessened
drag while in ground effect. I think it may just work given how long you can "hover" without
touching wheels at low speed during landings in IL2.

P.FunkAdelic
10-08-2008, 03:44 AM
That bounce is the hardest thing for me to master. I can land almost any plane now without trouble but getting that perfect landing without the bounce seems to elude me. Just a matter of fine control I'm sure.

And I have noticed the 109 seeming to need its own rules for landing. Not as bad as the Tempest though. That plane scares me when I know I'm low on fuel but still alive and have to make a landing on a dogfight server. With guys vulching your berry lights its just not fair.

M_Gunz
10-08-2008, 03:57 AM
If the plane doesn't have enough speed for its configuration then it cannot rise.
Try landing slower or with less flaps. Hold it up to the last if need be and next time
make a slower approach. Even 160 kph is 100 mph, check dirty stall IAS or test higher up.

How slow can you go and still fly level?

GIAP.Shura
10-08-2008, 04:12 AM
You might find this (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=vD5WkusBMQ0) useful. Have fun practicing.

P.FunkAdelic
10-08-2008, 04:27 AM
I have been practicing in fact in advance of my first session of Joint Ops BFS. Been practicing with the Zero and landing at 160, 150. Then the bounce is pretty minimal. Very easy plane to land.

I know to raise flaps to avoid bounce. Whats the best moment to do that?

Landing 109s is much harder for me but I still mostly manage to keep the plane level and the prop in shape. Practicing those approaches where you circle the field is very helpful too.

That vid is good Shura, cool music too.

Wish me luck at Joint Ops! Starts in... under 8 hours now.

Cheers

rhinomonkey
10-08-2008, 04:46 AM
once you get the knack you can (rather unrealistically) land almost any plane in this sim.

Jex_TE
10-08-2008, 08:49 AM
My landing approach is done all on the throttle. Line up with the runway from far out and get your bird ready for landing. Flaps down (make sure your speed isn't super high), Gear down. Now use the throttle with your approach to loose height and keep the nose a little above the horizon (though depends on plane).

Using the throttle you should be able to control your height. Drop throttle to loose altitude, increase to gain.

What I aim to do is cross the runway threshold pretty low and then chop the throttle. Now I pull back on the stick ever so lightly to keep the nose either level or slightly high (aiming for a 3 point (wheel) touch down.

This part depends on your speed but whatever attitude you have, aim for one where you are slowly dropping. So your nose may be pointed up but your slow speed makes you descend. What you don't want is to start gaining height or dropping like a rock.

Now I aim to have my nose high when I land, trying to aim to keep the bird in the air until i'm reaching stall speed and if I've got it right, I land on the runway with no bounce and I'm slow.

I don't look at my speed, I judge what the plane is doing. Don't go for a stall, go for a landing with slightly excess speed but make sure you're low at the beggining of the runway otherwise you may find the runway runs out - just give yourself plenty of room to practice and get a feel for the method http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

M_Gunz
10-08-2008, 09:20 AM
Keep the wings level using rudder only. If in a CSP plane then manual prop set to 100%.
prop speed high, power low, you can be very controlled on speed even with slight descent.
Auto prop and I have to run too fast for my liking. Maybe it's just me.

On wheels touch, idle power or blip the engine off and that's when I flaps up then get the
tail down. I've got a whole runway to slow down, I don't need extra lift flaps to slow down
esp once the power is zilch and tail is down.

WOLFPLAYER2007
10-08-2008, 09:42 AM
Everything above is right, i would also add that depends of the plane you are flying, for example im a Bf109, Fw190 flyer most of the times...you have to be very carefuly when you are landing with a bf109, weak landing gear, just use trim and rudder and do not make harsh movements with the joystick.

Otherwise, the Fw190 have a very strong landing gear, so you can relax a little bit (no to much) at landing with it.

The key is: be very smooth, no harsh movements and trim the plane.

Swivet
10-08-2008, 09:42 AM
This is a no-brainer....The only way ya gonna learn is to practice! Flaps,Throttle,Trim are your friends!

Spad_13
10-08-2008, 09:56 AM
I asked a friend of mine who's a pilot, and he said the key to landing is to raise the nose. That slows down the airplane. I just was curious as to what speed was needed to do so w/o overshooting the runway, and w/o stalling.

BTW, is the tail wheel steerable somehow? Some of my takeoffs have been shaky. I've tried using the rudder, and that helps keep me on the runway.

Danged if this game isn't the best I've ever flown. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Spad_13
10-08-2008, 09:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This is a no-brainer....The only way ya gonna learn is to practice! Flaps,Throttle,Trim are your friends! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's why I asked if there was a practice sim- like one where you're in the air and approaching the runway for landing.

Whatever goes up, must come down! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

McHilt
10-08-2008, 10:05 AM
Here's another one:

a good way to learn landing a plane smooth is to master slowflight and master the ability to let your plane float out just above the RWY (less than 1 ft) as long as possible... I can land all planes without even a slight bounce because of that... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Take your bird at high altitude and find out your stallspeed. In slowflight stay roughly 20 mph faster than stallspeed and you'll get there buddy!
(Be carefull for windshear though... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

M_Gunz
10-08-2008, 10:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Spad_13:
I asked a friend of mine who's a pilot, and he said the key to landing is to raise the nose. That slows down the airplane. I just was curious as to what speed was needed to do so w/o overshooting the runway, and w/o stalling. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you just barely stall that last foot or so, the drop will be slow and you won't bounce up.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">BTW, is the tail wheel steerable somehow? Some of my takeoffs have been shaky. I've tried using the rudder, and that helps keep me on the runway. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lock the tailwheel before takeoff, unlock to taxi around. Steer by rudder and if you're slow
use your rudder and propwash (goose the power for a second) to turn the plane with.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Danged if this game isn't the best I've ever flown. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes indeed!

M_Gunz
10-08-2008, 10:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Spad_13:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This is a no-brainer....The only way ya gonna learn is to practice! Flaps,Throttle,Trim are your friends! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's why I asked if there was a practice sim- like one where you're in the air and approaching the runway for landing.

Whatever goes up, must come down! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Honestly, learn to use the FMB! Do you buy peanut butter sandwiches pre-made?

McHilt
10-08-2008, 10:24 AM
I forgot this...
If you really want to learn to fly an aircraft learn the basics of flying first please.
I'm not talking about DF and combattechniques but moreover what lift is and how it's being produced, why planes stall, prop-effects etcetcetc
It makes it all a lot easier when "in the air".

buzzsaw1939
10-08-2008, 11:45 AM
Come on you guys, if you want to learn how to land, practice slow flight and stalls, thats all a landing is, in real life and in a sim!

Hint.... you can't land with out stalling!

arjisme
10-08-2008, 12:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Spad_13:
BTW, is the tail wheel steerable somehow? Some of my takeoffs have been shaky. I've tried using the rudder, and that helps keep me on the runway. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Not steerable, but lockable. So lock it before takeoff and it will help you hold the line until you get up to speed.

McHilt
10-08-2008, 12:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Come on you guys, if you want to learn how to land, practice slow flight and stalls, thats all a landing is, in real life and in a sim!

Hint.... you can't land with out stalling! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just what I was preaching here buzzsaw... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Swivet
10-08-2008, 12:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Come on you guys, if you want to learn how to land, practice slow flight and stalls, thats all a landing is, in real life and in a sim!

Hint.... you can't land with out stalling! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is basically it in a nutshell.Do some slow and low flying. Do some touch downs and take off again.Just letting your wheels barely hit the tarmac then take off again. This will get you familiar with using flaps and "ground effect" which is when the air gives you a cushion under your wings when your close to ground. That carrier landing program is pretty good, and if you can land on a carrier you can land almost anywhere..Just do some low-slow touchdowns and you'll be a pro in no time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Owlsphone
10-08-2008, 01:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Swivet:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Come on you guys, if you want to learn how to land, practice slow flight and stalls, thats all a landing is, in real life and in a sim!

Hint.... you can't land with out stalling! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is basically it in a nutshell.Do some slow and low flying. Do some touch downs and take off again.Just letting your wheels barely hit the tarmac then take off again. This will get you familiar with using flaps and "ground effect" which is when the air gives you a cushion under your wings when your close to ground. That carrier landing program is pretty good, and if you can land on a carrier you can land almost anywhere..Just do some low-slow touchdowns and you'll be a pro in no time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a pilot irl I completely agree with this advice.

You don't want to have to keep checking your speeds and various things inside the cockpit because you'll never remember what speeds correspond with the dozens of aircraft you'll likely fly.

What you do want to learn is how to manage your energy. By practicing slow flight and touch and gos, you learn a "feel" of what an aircraft behaves like in slow flight, just before a stall, and just after a stall.

You'll probably stall and lawn dart quite a bit, but eventually you'll learn to recognize the impending stall just by visual cues outside the airplane and how she's responding to your control inputs.

McHilt
10-08-2008, 01:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Owlsphone:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Swivet:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Come on you guys, if you want to learn how to land, practice slow flight and stalls, thats all a landing is, in real life and in a sim!

Hint.... you can't land with out stalling! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is basically it in a nutshell.Do some slow and low flying. Do some touch downs and take off again.Just letting your wheels barely hit the tarmac then take off again. This will get you familiar with using flaps and "ground effect" which is when the air gives you a cushion under your wings when your close to ground. That carrier landing program is pretty good, and if you can land on a carrier you can land almost anywhere..Just do some low-slow touchdowns and you'll be a pro in no time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a pilot irl I completely agree with this advice.

You don't want to have to keep checking your speeds and various things inside the cockpit because you'll never remember what speeds correspond with the dozens of aircraft you'll likely fly.

What you do want to learn is how to manage your energy. By practicing slow flight and touch and gos, you learn a "feel" of what an aircraft behaves like in slow flight, just before a stall, and just after a stall.

You'll probably stall and lawn dart quite a bit, but eventually you'll learn to recognize the impending stall just by visual cues outside the airplane and how she's responding to your control inputs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I told you so huh http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif
Endless discussion, I'll do some more take off practice instead LOL http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
besides you HAVE to keep an eye on your IAS since that gauge indicates your stallspeed. Sth EVERY RL pilot should know of every particular plane he/she flies...

riggs_SC
10-08-2008, 01:57 PM
You may find the two tutorials in the thread linked below helpful.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/50910533/m/3011031656

Both tutorials show you how to use the FMB (Full Mission Builder), which offers the most flexibility for practicing takeoffs and landings.

The first tutorial "Using the FMB to Practice Takeoffs and Landings" shows you how to pick a map, work with the map, choose your aircraft, place it on the runway, and configure your aircraft to be flown by you...when the mission begins, your aircraft will be on the runway, ready to takeoff.

The second tutorial "Focus on Landing" is right up your alley. It is very similar to the first tutorial, except that it shows you how to set things up so that the mission begins with your chosen aircraft already in the air, all lined up with the runway and coming in for a landing.

Both tutorials are very easy to follow.
Hope they help, and good luck!

Riggs

Pigeon_
10-08-2008, 04:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Owlsphone:
You'll probably stall and lawn dart quite a bit, but eventually you'll learn to recognize the impending stall just by visual cues outside the airplane and how she's responding to your control inputs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is that what your instructor told you? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

WTE_Galway
10-08-2008, 04:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> This will get you familiar with using flaps and "ground effect" which is when the air gives you a cushion under your wings when your close to ground </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



Is ground effect modeled in this sim ??? I have looked for it but honestly for me it doesn't seem to be modeled or the effect is very subtle whereas with low wing monoplanes like 109s and Spits you would expect a significant effect.

Zeus-cat
10-08-2008, 05:39 PM
My "Straight From the Farm" campaign also includes a seperate folder with all of the missions as single missions. Landings on grass, fleet carriers and escort carriers are provided. There is a text file that lists what each mission is so you can only fly the ones you need. Most missions use the SBD-3, but I also included missions for a number of US and Japanese naval aircraft.

Spad_13
10-08-2008, 07:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Honestly, learn to use the FMB! Do you buy peanut butter sandwiches pre-made? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, but I buy pre-made tuna sandwiches! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I hope to learn the FMB, and I see someone has posted a link to FMB tutorials (ah, predicting my NEXT question!). I took a peak, got to the "pick your map" part, and then got lost... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif But we'll see what those tutes show.

I appreciate all the input!

M_Gunz
10-08-2008, 08:02 PM
It's very simple. First time you may take 30 mins or more (or less) and make one or more
missions that you will use for hours later on. Remember that with FMB you can load any
mission, modify it, and save that as another again and again. To just change the planes
takes very little time.

One thing: test the mission from FMB if it's not huge and when you exit then you are back
in FMB with everything loaded. If you forget to make one flight as Player then you will
start in a no plane Twilight Zone.

Jex_TE
10-09-2008, 07:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Owlsphone:
You'll probably stall and lawn dart quite a bit, but eventually you'll learn to recognize the impending stall just by visual cues outside the airplane and how she's responding to your control inputs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope you don't teach in RL with this advice lol http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

WTE_Galway
10-09-2008, 05:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Spad_13:
I asked a friend of mine who's a pilot, and he said the key to landing is to raise the nose. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well its not like you randomly just raise the nose arbitrarily. After flare when you are just off the runway but still flying you need to raise the nose to stop the aircraft sinking to fast and bouncing.

Imagine your task is to actually fly a few inches above the runway with no throttle. As your speed drops you raise the nose more and more to stay airborne. Eventually you stall and drop the last few inches.

If you do it correctly you will get a perfect "3 pointer" with the tailwheel touching down at the same time as the main wheels.

Bremspropeller
10-09-2008, 06:05 PM
I never stall my a/c on landing and neither do you.

mortoma
10-09-2008, 07:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> This will get you familiar with using flaps and "ground effect" which is when the air gives you a cushion under your wings when your close to ground </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



Is ground effect modeled in this sim ??? I have looked for it but honestly for me it doesn't seem to be modeled or the effect is very subtle whereas with low wing monoplanes like 109s and Spits you would expect a significant effect. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>No, ground effect is not modeled in this sim.

buzzsaw1939
10-09-2008, 07:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
I never stall my a/c on landing and neither do you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


You of all people know better than that Brems! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

If the wing doesn't stop lifting, then your still flying!

M_Gunz
10-09-2008, 08:13 PM
One of the hard things to judge in a sim is when you're just off the ground/how close you are.
Ground detail isn't exactly IRL and we don't have stereo vision, we have to go by other cues.

Don't we have ground effect? Come in to land and can't you "hover" over the field at much
less power and speed than higher up and just slide along like that way down the strip?
Is a short field takeoff possible with high acceleration after lifting off? I'd say 'rotate'
but that to me implies getting more than a wingspan up very quickly.

Bremspropeller
10-10-2008, 04:35 AM
I guess it's hard to convince ppl that stalling isn't speed-related.

Stalling your aircraft on landing will certainly get you questions like (favourite one - a gramma asked that one to a flight-attendant after a rough landing) "did we land, or were we just shot down?" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

P.FunkAdelic
10-10-2008, 05:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
I guess it's hard to convince ppl that stalling isn't speed-related. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm not the expert here but saying that stalling isn't speed related would only be correct if real pilots didn't make power curves that fell off and ended at stall speed for their aircraft.

Speed decreasing but all other attitudinal factors remaining the same seems to lead to stall at a certain point. Isn't stalling just the result of losing lift on the wing surface? If so then speed of the air crossing the wing surface is directly related and as such the speed of the aircraft and by implication that wing surface is directly relevant and is then at least one factor in determining variables of stalling.

Not trying to be a pratt but to my logical mind it seems a contradiction to say that speed has nothing to do with stalling. I would say from what I've observed that it has a great deal to do with stalling, just that it doesn't have nearly everything to do with it.

Bremspropeller
10-10-2008, 06:15 AM
A stall (separation of boundary-layer over almost the entire chord-length) only happens at a specific ANGLE OF ATTACK - that angle has a positive value and a negative one - you can stall you a/c either by pushing or pulling too hard on the stick.

A stall - by definition - thus is related to AoA ONLY.

Now why do pilots plot in "stall-speed"?
Well, you propably know what a CL/AoA curve looks like:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e1/LiftCurve.svg/300px-LiftCurve.svg.png

The y-axis is labelled "CL", which is the lift-coefficient of the wing and the x-axis is labelled "AoA" which doesn't need any explanation.

The curve shows there is a given CL-value at a given AoA. CL and AoA are therefore "hardcoded" and directly related.

Now let's have a look at the relation beween generated lift and CL:
http://www.thaitechnics.com/helicopter/tg5/lift_equa.gif

You'll see, there's a couple of factors to influence lift.
Those are:

- speed
- AoA (as in "CL")
- density of air (and therefore temperature)
- wing area

The wing area is fixed at a given flap-configuration.
Air-density usually is terminal and changes locally, but the change in density is usually very gradual and the "DELTA RHO" is not too high.

That leaves us with speed and AoA.

Okay.

The lower speed gets, the less lift we're generating - I guess anybody can see that out of the equation.
Now, we need as much lift as we have weight in order to stay in a (vertically) unaccelerated flight-condition, also called "one G".

Any readout different that 1g on the g-meter tells you that you're experiencing an acceleration.
Note: climbing and descending are BOTH done at 1g! G is only measures acceleration, not vertical speed!

Alright. Now we're at less speed, thus we need to compensate for the loss of lift.
The only changable parameter left is AoA.
For any loss in speed, we'll have to increase AoA in order to keep the vertical forces at equilibrium (lift equalizes weight).
Same applies vice-versa as speed increases - more speed = less AoA.

As we have seen before, AoA can only increased to a certain amount - topping off at AoAmax.
We'll have CLmax at AoAmax.
Any increase in AoA beyond that will get parts of the wing into a stall. The more we're increasing AoA above AoAmax, the more of the wing is partially stalled, thus diminishing lift.

You're at 0g (no lift, free falling) when the lift-curve hits the X-axis (CL is 0.0) - there's no lift left and the entire wing is stalled.

Okay, back to the speed-AoA relation.
Why do pilots take "stall-speed" as reference?

It's actually quite simple.
As stated above, in order to keep a vertically unaccelerated flight, lift has to equalize weight.
Now weight differs each flight (fuel, ordnance, etc). Therefore, we have different weights to cover.

As you have seen above, AoA creates a hard-limit - you can NOT exceed CLmax.
Therefore, there is a minimum speed at which the aircraft can maintain 1g.
That's the so-called "stall-speed".
Note: stall speeds are different each flight!

Now why do pilots take speed as reference?
Most aircraft don't have gauges showing the AoA-value.
Therefore, working with complicated tables and equations, stall-speed is taken as refernce in most planes.

Some a/c, however (such as the F-4 and F-16) are being flown by AoA on final-approach.

So, let's get it in short:
Stalling speed differs each flight because of weight.
Stalling AoA is ALWAYS the same (at given wing-config). Therefore, by taking weight and the other stuff into the equation, we're working out a minimal flying-speed for sustaining 1g - "stall-speed".

M_Gunz
10-10-2008, 09:20 AM
All very good and correct but when you are flying and trying to hold a flight path and using
change in AOA to make the lift to do so, change in speed may bring you to the point where
you can no longer do so.

Stall is speed-"related" but certainly the cause is AOA passing the critical point.

"Related" not being the cause but bringing the cause to being.

Stall speeds IAS are always by condition of loading, power, flaps and gear, whatever else matters
like "are you turning" and altitude (mostly about power?) and always assumed to be while holding
level flight which, you can stall while climbing or even losing alt if too slowly -- but it's
useless to record all that except in charts (doghouse) with some elements fixed and great for
comparing performance limits.

buzzsaw1939
10-10-2008, 07:23 PM
I knew you were going to do that Brems! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

And your absolutly right as always!
However lets not forget the guys trying to learn this stuff, if I had that thrown at me before my first landing, I would have ended up a truck driver! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

P.FunkAdelic
10-11-2008, 02:38 AM
Of course you're right Brems but your language insisting on the separation 'twixt Speed and AOA was misleading and in and of itself incorrect.

'Related' was poor word choice. The first line in the definition of Related I found was "Being connected; associated."

Speed isn't the absolutely deciding factor in a stall but you yourself mention speed and stall in the same sentence associating the two scientifically enough to substantiate the claim that speed and stalls are relevant to one another; associated.

To say that when one reduces speed to a certain extent one must push the AOA beyond the limit of usable lift that creates a strong association between speed and a stall, at the very least in the case of landing which is always a slow speed process of riding the edge of stall speeds onto the ground. Just today in Joint Ops Basic Flight Training we practiced and succeeded at landing at the edge of stall and turning onto the first taxiway exit turn (very close to touchdown).

So I would just put forward another problem for you to proof. If we can't stall our aircraft onto the ground on a landing then why can we lose lift due to an unacceptable AOA caused by the reduction of speed? What difference is there between stalling at 5000m at 100km/h in an A6M2 and a mere 5 m above a runway? I don't stall when I land but why couldn't I if I wanted to?

PhantomKira
10-11-2008, 03:46 AM
Thanks Brems, I haven't seen those equasions since college! Sure do miss them!

As for landings, yes, that's how we were taught, (in training aircraft). Get it down just above the runway and hold it there till you run out of airspeed, and it falls out of the sky.

A note for the guy learning to land: try getting the widest angle possible so you have some "peripheral vision". I find it helps when I land to zoom out as far as possible so that I can see the runway on either side of the engine (I always use in-cockpit when doing normal flight maneuvers, like landing or taking off).

Tully__
10-11-2008, 05:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by P.FunkAdelic:
Speed isn't the absolutely deciding factor in a stall but you yourself mention speed and stall in the same sentence associating the two scientifically enough to substantiate the claim that speed and stalls are relevant to one another; associated.

To say that when one reduces speed to a certain extent one must push the AOA beyond the limit of usable lift... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
...is absolutely correct in the specific circumstances that Brems specified, i.e. maintaining lift force equal to the aircraft's weight. If you fly too slow, you will either have to accelerate towards the ground or stall. Brems specified in his description that the aircraft was maintaining 1G of lift, i.e. NOT accelerating up OR down.

crucislancer
10-11-2008, 11:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
They're very easy to set up in the Full Mission Builder. Pick a map, pick a plane, pick an
airfield (concrete type is easiest to see, Crimea has a few) and set up two way points out
a way from landing far enough to get stabilized and the third for landing.

Save that in an offline folder, change the plane (leaving the rest) and save that under a
different name, etc until you have all the planes you want to use.

A little time with the FMB is good, you can use it to set up missions the way a pool player
will set up practice shots in spare time.

I find that putting ground objects down near the ends (off to the side) of a grass strip makes
it easier to find from air, btw. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do something similar when I want to get really in depth with a particular type, I'll make a "Check Ride" mission in the FMB, with just a take off waypoint. That way I can work on everything in that type: Take off, maneuvering, stall thresholds, landing. I also through in a couple of enemy planes that are typical opponents of that type that orbit a certain area not too far away, so I can go engage them at will. If it's a type that handles ground attack duties as well, a bombing range is added.

M2morris
10-12-2008, 12:37 AM
Good grief man, five thousand two hundred and eighty different high tech ways to land a plane when all the guy has to do is keep practicing and it will probly come naturally.

M_Gunz
10-12-2008, 12:47 AM
See How It Flies (http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/intro.html#toc2)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> How to Use this Book

I hope you will find these topics interesting... but this book is not just for entertainment: I find that the information presented here helps people fly the airplane better.

There is a saying that "practice makes perfect" but that's wrong. It's wrong in at least two ways.

For starters, the truth is that practice makes permanent. If you're practicing the wrong things, practice is worse than nothing. The key is to practice the right things. Learn the right procedures, then go practice them.

Secondly, practice without understanding may be useful preparation for routine situations, but nothing is ever entirely routine. Every airport is a little bit different, every airplane is a little bit different, and you can never be entirely sure what to expect from the wind, weather, controllers, or other airplanes. Therefore you have to understand what you're doing, so you can improvise.

On the other side of the same coin, theoretical understanding without practice is not sufficient either. Although most of the time, things happen pretty slowly in the airplane, so you have time to think, there are a few situations where you have to get the timing right. There is no substitute for lots of practice, including recent practice, in these situations. This includes takeoffs, landings, and various foreseeable emergencies.

In critical situations where doing the right thing matters most, you will probably not have time to do any deep theoretical reasoning.

Furthermore, even in non-time-critical situations, there are some skills where you need the reliability that comes from habits based on disciplined practice. This includes scanning for conflicting traffic and scanning the instruments. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bremspropeller
10-12-2008, 09:22 AM
There are three simple rules for a good landing.

Unfortunately, nobody knows them!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Blindman-
10-12-2008, 12:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Spad_13:
Is there a practice sim on this game to help one perfect the delicate art of... landing on a runway? Not the carrier landings. How to bring her down onto the tarmac. Maybe lessons on what one's approach speed should be, when to lower the gear, when to deploy flaps?

No matter what I do, it winds up the same- a mangled heap! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Download the practice missions that the link in my signature takes you to, use the instructions provided to unpack them and you will find a practice session for landing under difficulty 2. Most newcomers find the series very helpful for developing basic skills and then refining those skills.

WTE_Galway
10-12-2008, 05:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
I guess it's hard to convince ppl that stalling isn't speed-related.

Stalling your aircraft on landing will certainly get you questions like (favourite one - a gramma asked that one to a flight-attendant after a rough landing) "did we land, or were we just shot down?" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A friend of mine landing a Beechcraft twin on a wet grass runway reached the other end at a fair speed (grass to wet for brakes to work) and tried to turn off the runway at speed before hitting the fence and instead manage to accidently execute a flat groundloop on the wet grass and ended up coming to stop on the verge facing the other way.

Apparently the passengers were actually impressed and thought he had done it deliberately. Fortunately for him it was uncontrolled airspace so no incident was reported. In reality he should have gone around or diverted.

Crikey2008
10-12-2008, 07:44 PM
some Airspeed Indicator gauges may have a range on the dial face for things like speed at which to lower flaps; or there may be a plate with flap speed in the cockpit somewhere.

'Ground Effect' is where the plane flies slightly above the ground with no or hardly any control input from the pilot. That is, the feedback from the ground produces lift and 'flies' the aircraft for a while. Learning to 'flare' out the aircraft for landing proceeds from that point. Nose up as the plane begins to lose lift. IRL this is generally higher than in game.

The worst advice you've received here is to raise flaps on landing to ostensibly avoid bouncing.

M_Gunz
10-13-2008, 01:11 AM
At low speeds you don't have much excess to maneuver with. You have to spend some time in ground
effect if you don't want to slam down, it would be really good to have FFB but I don't.
I seem to land alright most of the time. You hop twice that's not 3 landings to log, it's 1.
I've been careless and plowed it as well. I hate when the gear breaks! Too impatient.

IL2 gets hard to hold but you're not going to die if the plane crashes while practicing.
It's harder to do with twist-sticks as well. You can ride if you can dance. Can't dance, don't hang.

The below comes from a long time CFI with physics degree from Caltech and is/was in the FAA,
check his resume.

Bound Vortex - Ground Effect (http://av8n.com/how/htm/airfoils.html#toc68)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">3.12.5 Bound Vortex

Let's not forget about the bound vortex, which runs spanwise from wingtip to wingtip, as shown in figure 3.27.


When you are flying in ground effect, you are influenced by the mirror image of your bound vortex. Specifically, the flow circulating around the mirror-image bound vortex will reduce the airflow over your wing. I call this a pseudo-tailwind.17

Operationally, this means that for any given angle of attack, you need a higher true airspeed to support the weight of the airplane. This in turn means that a low-wing airplane will need a longer runway than the corresponding high-wing airplane, other things being equal. It also means in theory that there are tradeoffs involved during a soft-field takeoff: you want to be sufficiently deep in ground effect to reduce induced drag, but not so deep that your speeds are unduly increased. In practice, though, feel free to fly as low as you want during a soft-field takeoff, since in an ordinary-shaped airplane the bad effect of the reflected bound vortex (greater speed) never outweighs the good effect of the reflected trailing vortices (lesser drag).

As a less-precise way of saying things, you could say that to compensate for ground effect, any given true airspeed, you need more coefficient of lift. This explains why all airplanes some more so than others exhibit "squirrely" behavior when flying near the ground, including:

* Immediately after liftoff, the airplane may seem to leap up a few feet, as you climb out of the pseudo-tailwind. This is generally a good thing, because when you become airborne you generally want to stay airborne.
* Conversely, on landing, the airplane may seem to drop suddenly, as the pseudo-tailwind takes effect. This is unhelpful, but it's not really a big problem once you learn to anticipate it. It does mean that practicing flaring at altitude (as discussed in section 12.11.3) will never entirely prepare you for real landings.
* The wing and the tail will be influenced by ground effect to different degrees. (This is particularly pronounced if your airplane has a low wing and a high T-tail, but no airplane is entirely immune.) That means that when you enter or exit ground effect, there will be squirrely pitch-trim changes ... in addition to the effects mentioned in the previous items. Just to rub salt in the wound, the behavior will be different from flight to flight, depending on how the aircraft is loaded, i.e. depending on whether the center of mass is near the forward limit or the aft limit.

During landing, ground effect is a lose/lose/lose proposition. You regret greater speed, you regret lesser drag, and you regret squirrely handling. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">3.12.4 Soft-Field Takeoff

We can now understand why soft-field takeoff procedure works. When the aircraft is in ground effect, it "sees its reflection" in the ground. If you are flying 10 feet above the ground, the effect is the same as having a mirror-image aircraft flying 10 feet below the ground. Its wingtip vortices spin in the opposite direction and largely cancel your wingtip vortices " greatly reducing induced drag.

As discussed in section 13.4, in a soft-field takeoff, you leave the ground at a very low airspeed, and then fly in ground effect for a while. There will be no wheel friction (or damage) because the wheels are not touching the ground. There will be very little induced drag because of the ground effect, and there will be very little parasite drag because you are going slowly. The airplane will accelerate like crazy. When you reach normal flying speed, you raise the nose and fly away. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Anybody who can follow the AI wing out and catch them before the first waypoint knows about
speeding up before raising the nose even if we do it above ground effect height. Skimming the
ground should cut the time to hit better speed before climbing, if you don't hit something else
like a tree or hill first.

More Soft Field Takeoff (http://av8n.com/how/htm/takeoff.html#sec-soft-field-takeoff)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Just after liftoff using this procedure,

1. there is no rolling friction because the wheels are not touching the ground;
2. there is very little induced drag because you are in ground effect; and
3. there is very little parasite drag because you are moving slowly; and
4. no power is being used for climb because you are moving horizontally.

The engine is producing full power, so if none of it goes into drag and none of it goes into climb, the airplane will accelerate like crazy.

There are many situations where this procedure is useful.

* If the runway is covered with mud, tall grass, sand, or snow, there can be troublesome amounts of friction against the wheels. Soft-field procedure allows you to transfer the airplane's weight from the wheels to the wings as early as possible, decreasing friction and improving acceleration.
* If the runway is rough and bumpy, the problem is not so much friction, but rather damage from hitting a bump at high speed. The sooner you lift off, the less harm to the airplane. Remember, the force involved in hitting a bump goes like the square of the groundspeed.
* Suppose the runway is perfectly smooth and firm, but very short " and suppose it is surrounded by open fields with lots of bumps but no serious obstacles. You can become airborne over the runway, and then accelerate in ground effect over the fields.
* Suppose you are attempting an ordinary takeoff from an ordinary field, but due to a gust (or perhaps even a lapse in pilot technique) you become airborne at a too-low airspeed. The best strategy is to accelerate in ground effect; you don't want to re-contact the runway (especially if there is a crosswind) and you don't want to try climbing at the too-low airspeed.

In all cases you must be careful to remain in ground effect until you have accelerated to a proper climb speed. If you try to climb at the liftoff speed you will have a big problem: in many cases, you will be unable to climb out of ground effect. That is, as soon as you climb to a height where ground effect is no longer significant, the induced drag will become so large that you will be unable to climb or accelerate. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I do think we have some of this at least over runways.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">7.7.3 Skimming in Ground Effect

Here is trick for saving a little bit of energy. I hope you never get into a situation where you need to use this trick " but it might save your bacon if the situation arises.

Suppose no engine power is available, and the aircraft is too low and/or too far from the desired landing place. Using our energy-management logic, we see that the only real way to stretch the glide is to find a low-drag mode of operation. The solution is sort of the reverse of a soft-field takeoff (section 13.4) " you should make use of ground effect.

Specifically, the procedure is to maintain best-glide speed9 right down into ground effect, even if this means that you enter ground effect over the swamp a tenth of a mile short of the intended landing place. Once you are in ground effect, start pulling back on the yoke. Because there is very little induced drag in ground effect (as discussed in connection with soft-field takeoffs in section 13.4), the airplane can fly at very low airspeeds with remarkably little drag. You can then fly all the way to the landing area in ground effect. It is like a prolonged flare; you keep pulling back gradually to cash in airspeed and pay for drag. This technique will not solve all the world's problems, but it is guaranteed to work better than trying to stretch the glide by pulling back before entering ground effect.

Conversely: if you are approaching a short runway and have a few knots of excess airspeed on short final, you should pull back on the yoke and get rid of the excess airspeed before entering ground effect. If you think you can't get rid of it on short final, remember it will only be harder to get rid of in ground effect. A timely go-around might be wise.

If you want to practice skimming in ground effect, find a long, long, long runway to practice on, and be careful not to run off the far end.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Crikey2008
10-13-2008, 06:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
A friend of mine landing a Beechcraft twin on a wet grass runway reached the other end at a fair speed (grass to wet for brakes to work) and tried to turn off the runway at speed before hitting the fence and instead manage to accidently execute a flat groundloop on the wet grass and ended up coming to stop on the verge facing the other way.

Apparently the passengers were actually impressed and thought he had done it deliberately. Fortunately for him it was uncontrolled airspace so no incident was reported. In reality he should have gone around or diverted. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I heard from another pilot his experience on flaring over the threshold. His aircraft was picked up by a willy willy which turned the aircraft 360. I suspect he was in a crosswind landing and having his vortices moving crossways under him when the willy willy struck.

il-2 models turbulence below 500m in some weather. It should then not be hard to introduce vortex behaviour from that model (I don't know). A crosswind shifting the vortices would be felt as two bumps as the vortices drift across while drifting down into ground effect. For example, where there are two runways on the airfield or where formation takeoff or landing is built into a FMB mission.
Even aquaplaning as experienced with the Beechcraft is sort of simulated in il-2 under rain conditions.

Uncontrolled airspace...I know it well; makes a pilot better if they survive it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

M2morris
10-13-2008, 06:33 PM
I was a student in a Cessna 172.
The weather was calm, no wind, at about 7:30 PM, a beautiful clear summer evening.
A twin-turbo prop commuter plane was on final as we were on the downwind leg of the pattern.
We had been cleared to land.
I asked my instructor if he thought it was okay to go ahead and land behind that big turboprop.
He said go ahead.

"Enough time should pass by the time we are there, it'll be okay."
As I was on final and at about 300 ft, the plane was jolted and rocked around fairly violently.
"What the hell are you doing!?"
He asked.

"Nothing! I hit some rough air I geuss."
He insisted that I had intentionally jerked the yoke and caused it all myself.
I insisted that I most certainly had-not done that.
I argued that it must have been the vortecies from the commuter, he continued to insist that it was me doing it.
Needless to say I stopped taking lessons from that guy after that.

Edit: I can look back on that now and realise that perhaps on a windy day aircraft vortecies can actually be blown away, while in contrast on a perfectly calm no-wind day the vortecies
can linger in place. It's only a theory of mine.

M_Gunz
10-13-2008, 10:46 PM
It must depend on the wind IRL.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> When a vortex line gets close to the ground, it "sees its reflection". That is, a vortex at height H moves as if it were being acted on by a mirror-image vortex a distance H below ground. This causes wake vortices to spread out " the left vortex starts moving to the left, and the right vortex starts moving to the right.
* Avoiding Wake Turbulence Problems

If you are flying a light aircraft, avoid the airspace below and behind a large aircraft. Avoiding the area for a minute or two suffices, because a vortex that is older than that will have lost enough intensity that it is probably not a serious problem.

If you are landing on the same runway as a preceding large aircraft, you can avoid its wake vortices by flying a high, steep approach, and landing at a point well beyond the point where it landed. Remember, it doesn't produce vortices unless it is producing lift. Assuming you are landing into the wind, the wind can only help clear out the vortices for you.

If you are departing from the same runway as a preceding large aircraft, you can avoid its vortices " in theory " if you leave the runway at a point well before the point where it did, and if you make sure that your climb-out profile stays above and/or behind its. In practice, this might be hard to do, since the other aircraft might be able to climb more steeply than you can. Also, since you are presumably taking off into the wind, you need to worry that the wind might blow the other plane's vortices toward you.

A light crosswind might keep a vortex on the runway longer, by opposing its spreading motion. A less common problem is that a crosswind might blow vortices from a parallel runway onto your runway.

The technique that requires the least sophistication is to delay your takeoff a few minutes, so the vortices can spread out and be weakened by friction.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

TX-EcoDragon
10-14-2008, 04:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M2morris:
. . .Edit: I can look back on that now and realise that perhaps on a windy day aircraft vortecies can actually be blown away, while in contrast on a perfectly calm no-wind day the vortecies
can linger in place. It's only a theory of mine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's more than a theory - it's fact.

Here's a section from the AIM:

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publ...m/Chap7/aim0703.html (http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/Chap7/aim0703.html)

TX-EcoDragon
10-14-2008, 04:35 PM
One simple tip hasn't been mentioned yet it's a skill that all pilots need to have, sim or real world, and gives them the ability to visualize where they will touch down on the runway based on their current energy situation (altitude, airspeed, angle to the runway). You can tell right away if you have too much energy, or not enough to make your intended touchdown point based on whether the point rises or falls relative to a fixed point in your windscreen. This is easiest once on final approach, but can be used when on base leg as well by looking for the rise/fall relationship of the wing tip or other aircraft structure relative to the point of intended landing.

In other words, once lined up with runway and slowed to approach speed and at a reasonable angle for an approach, look at the touchdown area of the runway and then note what that spot does. . .if you see the point on the runway rise in your windscreen, then you will undershoot (not make it to the runway) and to prevent this you need to add a little power to shallow out your descent, if you see the point falling then you are too fast and will end up landing long, going off the end of the runway.

One thing you will learn is that power required on approach is variable depending on how steep the glide path is. I generally do approaches in the sim as I do them in real life, steep enough that I do not need power for approach. This is harder than a shallower approach using power, so at first it might not be a bad idea to come in a bit more shallow. . .just be aware that you won't make the runway if the engine dies, and it will be tough to see the runway if at low speed, and low altitude dragging the plane back to the runway with power.


A hidden benefit of this tip, is that as you try to pay attention to this rise/fall relationship you will be flying smoother and more precise approaches that are more stabilized, and therefore more apt to result in good landings when you are learning.

Perhaps the hardest part is the part that only comes from practice - and that's the roundout/flare and touchdown. . .but if the approach is good, it's alot easier to time the flare correctly.

buzzsaw1939
10-14-2008, 08:09 PM
Well said TX! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

P.FunkAdelic
10-14-2008, 10:05 PM
It can be particularly nasty trying to dump extra speed while maintaining decent rate. If I'm coming in too hot and I pull up and reduce throttle the runway can disappear below me and if I end up looking to undershoot it gets like deflection shooting in a 109; landing without seeing where you're landing, just guessing.

The hardest skill to develop seems controlling the throttle and pitch angle in tandem so that nothing too drastic happens. Like raising pitch to dump speed without dropping too much throttle and losing so much alt that you will be way undershooting.

Landing used to annoy me. But knowing what I should be doing makes every landing fun and challenging. I sometimes review them as avidly as my kills.

TX-EcoDragon
10-15-2008, 04:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by P.FunkAdelic:
It can be particularly nasty trying to dump extra speed while maintaining decent rate. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To solve this, learn the forward slip.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by P.FunkAdelic:
If I'm coming in too hot and I pull up and reduce throttle the runway can disappear below me and if I end up looking to undershoot it gets like deflection shooting in a 109; landing without seeing where you're landing, just guessing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep - in many aircraft particularly tailwheel aircraft, if you can see the runway, or even the airport, you aren't pointing at it. I fly a few types of aircraft like this, all are tailwheel designs that require either a circling and offset approach, or a forward slip if I'm flying a straight in final approach.

It's not ideal - but it's realistic!