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delhan
09-04-2004, 05:31 AM
being a newbie to IL2 and not so much into WW2 aviation and propelled flying. Tried the other day the J-8. Felt like it was made by a different developer, like groups of planes are made from different dev in IL2, i was impressed by the looks, in cockpit and external views and the quality of the default skin, seems like very good job on textures in overall, and the 3D model as well too. Then the flight model. after having a hard time with spits, 109s, hurricanes, this elegant biplane flys like piece of cake, and its so tolerant to back stick, comparing to the others its like virtualy stall/spin free and what tight turns it can achieve ... is this how the actual planes were, or indeed a difference in the flight models between the IL2 models?

Thanks

:: Squid ::

http://www.magnet.gr/monographix/vhaf/defotherm.gif

[This message was edited by delhan on Sat September 04 2004 at 05:58 AM.]

delhan
09-04-2004, 05:31 AM
being a newbie to IL2 and not so much into WW2 aviation and propelled flying. Tried the other day the J-8. Felt like it was made by a different developer, like groups of planes are made from different dev in IL2, i was impressed by the looks, in cockpit and external views and the quality of the default skin, seems like very good job on textures in overall, and the 3D model as well too. Then the flight model. after having a hard time with spits, 109s, hurricanes, this elegant biplane flys like piece of cake, and its so tolerant to back stick, comparing to the others its like virtualy stall/spin free and what tight turns it can achieve ... is this how the actual planes were, or indeed a difference in the flight models between the IL2 models?

Thanks

:: Squid ::

http://www.magnet.gr/monographix/vhaf/defotherm.gif

[This message was edited by delhan on Sat September 04 2004 at 05:58 AM.]

AlexDavies
09-04-2004, 05:37 AM
it's my favorite plane in il-2. i'm suprised discovery history channel called it 'obsolete'. well, i magaged to shoot down an ace in a 262 with it!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/T_O_A_D/alexcopy.jpg

[]_---_[] KITT
09-04-2004, 05:38 AM
Hmm i too think the 3D model is very good.
Cr 42 is also not bad modelled. Well done

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v319/roh_kudus/Sig_Tiger.gif
"And if we are able thus to attack an inferior force with a superior one, our opponents will be in dire straits" Sun Tzu

delhan
09-04-2004, 05:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>well, i magaged to shoot down an ace in a 262 with it!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wouldn't be fun to see the skin u used with a me262 kill mark on it? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

:: Squid ::

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[This message was edited by delhan on Sat September 04 2004 at 05:07 AM.]

AlexDavies
09-04-2004, 06:00 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/T_O_A_D/alexcopy.jpg

delhan
09-04-2004, 08:58 AM
any other input on these questions ?

:: Squid ::

http://www.magnet.gr/monographix/vhaf/defotherm.gif

VW-IceFire
09-04-2004, 09:04 AM
Its a biplane, its turn rate is going to be fantastic.

You can tell that the Gladiator was a flying plane while the Spitfire or the 109 is a high performance fighter. This isn't a bad thing either way...but something was definately lost on those that the Gladiator and other bi-planes have with their ease of flight.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RAF No 92 Squadron
"Either fight or die"

TgD Thunderbolt56
09-04-2004, 09:07 AM
Many have commented on the FM of the Gladiator/J8A. Most will say it seems to be overmodeled in its FM and undermodeled in its DM.

It's firepower is questionable but its handling is not to be taken lightly. ANY plane that gets in a turnfight with it should be toast. It climbs like a dog and dives like a feather, but it's definitely a fun ride that can be very effective in the right hands.

TB


Our FB server info: http://www.greatergreen.com/il2

Chuck_Older
09-04-2004, 09:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by delhan:
being a newbie to IL2 and not so much into WW2 aviation and propelled flying. Tried the other day the J-8. Felt like it was made by a different developer, like groups of planes are made from different dev in IL2, i was impressed by the looks, in cockpit and external views and the quality of the default skin, seems like very good job on textures in overall, and the 3D model as well too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The plane was made by a member here http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif who knows his stuff quite well. The TA152 also has a beautiful cockpit

Alex-
Surely you realise that any biplane was obsolete by the time WWII came. "Obsolete" doesn't mean "not effective". It means "the old way of doing things". I have a 35 year old car. Still runs and drives as well as any new car. But it was obsolete officially from the manufacturer in 1978- when I was seven years old http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif It still does what it was designed to do very well, but it is obsolete and they don't make cars that way any more.

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Killers in America work seven days a week~
Clash

delhan
09-04-2004, 09:41 AM
i suppose since in WWII you definitely had to come close no matter what you were flying then the closer you are to a Gladiator the more chances it has to get you, i guess speed can save you from this aerobatic fighter. What are its guns ? 7.62 mm? looks like, and the fire rate doesnt seem to be great too, so i guess a J8 pilot has to put realy lots of rounds and from close distance on a fast monoplane fighter in order to score, but by that time, the fast mover would had gone off range

i think i like this sim more and more http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif

anyhow, this bird the way is presented in IL2 is very pleasing both to the eye and the stick, excellent job.

:: Squid ::

http://www.magnet.gr/monographix/vhaf/defotherm.gif

[This message was edited by delhan on Sat September 04 2004 at 09:06 AM.]

Jenny_B
09-04-2004, 10:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by delhan:
I guess a J8 pilot has to put lots of rounds on a fast monoplane fighter in order to score, but by that time, the fast mover would had gone off range
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's the problem I have with the J8. Also, you can empty your guns in e g the I-16 from behind without any effect. Getting the opportunity to shoot a deflection shot at the cockpit is hard, since it's enough for the other plane to straight and level, outrunning you and simply ignoring the bullets coming from behind.

The 3D model, exterior as well as cockpit, is gorgeous though.

--Jenny

actionhank1786
09-04-2004, 11:55 AM
One thing that always bugged me about the Gladiator Campaign for the Finn's was that after i'd spend 30 minutes flying to the fight, i'd try and climb on and enemy and by the time i got to their altitude, they'd already turned tail and ran, and i couldnt catch them. Shooting down old fashioned bombers is fun when you can almost literally fly cirlces around them http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://img18.photobucket.com/albums/v54/Halfwayhank/Actionsig.png

Actionhank
~Aaron White

F19_Ob
09-04-2004, 12:15 PM
Since the gladiator cant keep up with most planes even in level flight, there is a good trick when meeting an enemy head on or close to that.
Since j8 is a paperplane its not recommended to do headons but to make very early turns so u end up as close as possible to the enemy that passes u. In j8 this is a good move because no other plane can turn around as quickly.
I have used this many times when fighting against 109's and although they are so much faster I can end up close behind if I do the turn early enough.
pilots in general really wont expect that a plane can convert on his 6 so fast.
By examining my onlinetracks from GG and F16 I have discovered that many j8 flyers dont use the early turn frequently.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Jenny_B
09-04-2004, 12:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by actionhank1786:
One thing that always bugged me about the Gladiator Campaign for the Finn's was that after i'd spend 30 minutes flying to the fight, i'd try and climb on and enemy and by the time i got to their altitude, they'd already turned tail and ran, and i couldnt catch them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No probs, just climb early. Never mind the fact that the rest of the squadron is way below you and ignore the voice that keeps nagging "Where are you? Stay on leaders course!".

--Jenny

Kartveli
09-04-2004, 12:29 PM
J8 is a delight to fly...

It IS quite obsolete, though...one has to remember this is in the context of real life, where the glads wouldnt stand a chance....take it into a cockpit on server without externals and then re-evaluate the Glad, hehehehe

Yes, it has a beautifully done cockpit, but my only beef is, if we have the J8 flyable, why dont we also have the Glad MkII?

AlexDavies
09-04-2004, 12:30 PM
and all those desert RAF color schemes?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/T_O_A_D/alexcopy.jpg

Friendly_flyer
09-04-2004, 12:37 PM
The models in IL2/FB have gone through quite an evolution, from the early rather sketchy ones to the beautiful details seen in the Gladiator and I-185. The cockpit of the P-11 is a mess, and the exterior of the Mig 1 leave a lot to be desired.

There's also some other factors coming into play. When making skins for the cockpit or exterior, you have a finite area to work on. That means that the smaller the cockpit or plane, the more detaield surfaces you can make. The modellers too have definitely become better as time passes.

Fly friendly!

Petter Bøckman
Norway

Vladimir_No2
09-04-2004, 01:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kartveli:
It IS quite obsolete, though...one has to remember this is in the context of real life, where the glads wouldnt stand a chance....take it into a cockpit on server without externals and then re-evaluate the Glad, hehehehe<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
All my kills with the J8, including La-5s, have been in closed cockpit servers.

-Vlad
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v255/vladimir_no2/pzlsig.jpg

ouston
09-04-2004, 05:47 PM
Regarding the Gladiator I had not given it a go until I downloaded "The Blue" campaign. I have a very good book called "In the cockpit", Orbis Publishing, London, 1979. This has a section on the Gladiator written by the late Bob Stanford-Tuck, a gentlemen whose views I think we should respect. Not exactly nippy but pretty good for its day in terms of climb and fairly docile in landing and take-off. Seems to mirror what I have seen so far in the campaign. Probably the most important point to make is that the instrument panel arrangement in the J-8 is substantially different from that in any mark of Gladiator in the RAF, aside from the fact that the legends on the dials are obviously in a foreign language that one assumes is Swedish. The "basic six" arrangement seems to be missing for a start.

I have not actually got near a target to comment on the effectiveness of the armament.

Finally I would recommend "The blue" campaign from what I have played so far.

Regards

Ouston (formerly trading as Acklington until something went wrong with the password)

WTE_Galway
09-04-2004, 07:25 PM
The Gladiator is one of the better "tourist" planes for checking out scenery as well almost as much fun as the Emil for scud running and the cockpit is fantastic.

It is obsolete for a number of reasons that show up quickly in a dog fight:

- Engine dies under negative G
- cannot sustain a high speed dive with out overheating and cooking the engine
- poor top speed, virtually any monoplane fighter and many bombers in the game can simply disengage by climbing away

The problem with planes like the gladiator in actual air combat is the faster more modern planes can dicate the terms engaging and disengaging at will. You rely on the enemy being silly enough to try and turn fight with you at slow speed and low altitude .

Until we get a Spitfire MK I the gladiator and Emil are my two favourite planes in the game.

Multimetal
09-05-2004, 03:49 AM
I like it a lot, it's really fun to fight the Italian biplane in it. However, that dang wing right in the middle of your view can be a pain! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Capt_Haddock
09-05-2004, 04:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by delhan:
any other input on these questions ?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all thanks for the comments.

The J8A was a team effort that started a long time ago, in the days of the original IL2 and Luthier's modelling website: IL2 Centre.

I first started the external with the intention of making the British MkI and MkII versions, expending a good deal of time at Duxford researching the excellent restoration they have there. The fact that Duxford's MkII was still not finished, with all internal parts clearly visible, was really helpful for the damage modelling.

Half way through the project I was approached by F19_Orheim (also a fellow poster here) and he ofered help to bring back to life the Swedish J8A, used by Swedish volunteer pilots of the F19 squadron during the Winter War in Finland. FB's background was a great opportunity to bring back this beautiful plane to its original environment, so we decided to "shelf" the MkI and MkII and concentrate the efforts on the J8A, a plane you won't see that often in a flightsim: British build MkII, with a MkI cockpit full of German instruments, and labeled in Swedish. A rare bird http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

From there it was a huge team effort of long evenings, indoor weekends, endless emails, visist to museums, and even some unexpected discoveries, as it happened with the Revi gunsight. Ever wondered why the J8A's Revy has no sun filter? thanks to the 3D model we found the Swedish engineers had to remove it. It would simply not fit in the original space left for the British MkII reflector Gunsight.

We are glad you like it. We had a great time bringing the J8A back to life. Feel free to pop around our Website, F19 squadron, http://www.f19vs.se/ home of the J8A.

PS. Regarding the flight model. The Gladiator was considered at the time to have "perfect handling characteristics". Keep in mind it has 4 ailerons, when most biplanes just have 2. One of the favourite ways of climbing with it was by making an endless succession of half-loop, half barrel, half loop...

http://www.haddock.f2s.com/sig/F19bannerh.jpg
http://www.haddock.f2s.com/sig/F19banner.jpg

delhan
09-05-2004, 05:17 AM
man , congrats ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif what should be done so the rest of the planes reach this level of making ? i have to admit getting back from gladiator to my other real life favorites (mustang, 109, spits, lightnigs etc) they simply dont attract me in IL2 any more , i have to get back to the J8 to please my eye http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Being a graphic designer and a scale modeler i cant help it being influenced by looks quality http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ok not to mention how this bird handles

So maybe maddox should distribute the model making tasks to individual groups from now on ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif

:: Squid ::

http://www.magnet.gr/monographix/vhaf/defotherm.gif

bird_brain
09-05-2004, 08:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Capt_Haddock:
We are glad you like it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Outstanding model Capt_Haddock... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

That is definately the best void in the game too. Makes doing a paintscheme simple. You can't go wrong.

Many thanks for all the work. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://jyarbrough.homestead.com/Paper.jpg
"The Blue" Desert Campaign, The Hell Hawks Ardennes Campaign &
The World's Greatest Aces Collection are all *here* (http://jyarbrough.homestead.com/Files.html)

F19_Orheim
09-05-2004, 01:00 PM
Glad it is appreciated, Mr Haddock made an excellent job with the model!!!!

As Haddock mentioned you are more than welcome to visit our webpage http://www.f19vs.se

Under link "HANGAR" you will be able to read a little about the J8A and how the project started, development pictures included.

Now regarding the flightmodel of the J8a, please read:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=309109534

"The Aces Expansion Pack features the J8 Swedish version of the Gloster Gladiator which has a cockpit equipped with metric dials and comes with skis for winter missions. Captain Brown put the Gladiator through its paces and, executing some low-level aerobatics and loops, showed he had not lost any of the 'Right Stuff' over the years. "It's a bit sensitive on the elevators - but then so was the real thing - so just about right," he said."

Also in our "Hangar"-section you can download an excerpt of the orginial J8A manual translated into English with a few notes by the development team.

I think Maddox has made an excellent job with the flightmodel with these in mind.

PS Please visit our guestbook in our Forum http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://216.12.202.106/~f19vs/F19bannerA.jpg
http://216.12.202.106/~f19vs/F19banner.jpg
_________________
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[This message was edited by F19_Orheim on Sun September 05 2004 at 12:13 PM.]

DuxCorvan
09-05-2004, 02:53 PM
Good work, Captain! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Any chance of having the Mk.I or Mk.II pits? The British Glad would be a nice add for a Mediterranean scenario.

oddglob
09-05-2004, 06:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Felt like it was made by a different developer, like groups of planes are made from different dev in IL2, i was impressed by the looks, in cockpit and external views and the quality of the default skin, seems like very good job on textures in overall, and the 3D model as well too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I agree with you. Without naming specific aircraft (at the risk of offending the developers), I have been quite suprised at the variability of quality in the modelling of aircraft in FB and the AEP. It's not so much the external models that are a problem - it's the cockpits.

But the Gladiator, along with a number of others are very good quality, which is what I expect to get with a payware product.

I would rather have much less aircraft at the same quality level as the Gladiator than a large number of aircraft where the quality varies as much as it currently does.

Fliegeroffizier
09-08-2004, 05:33 PM
I began the "The Blue" desert campaign, having never flown the Galdiator before. I was immediately confused by the markings of the instruments, which appeared to be German at first, but which I then realized were something like Norwegian or Swedish...I didn't Understand that, at all! I asked some qustions over on SimHQ and learned that it was a Swedish J8. After a search here, I found this thread which clears things up.

I probably overlooked it in the ReadMe file for "TheBlue" campaign(which I've erased)... I would recommend that this strange aspect be highlighted/explained in the Readme for new folks downloading the campaign, if it is not already in the readMe.

Meanwhile, it is GREAT fun!!! Makes my mouth water for a State-of-the-Art WWI flight sim! The visibility of the upper wing and suport structure can block the view, of course, but also it was Remarkable when I was first hit by gunfire and observed the damage to the wing immediately...fabric-ripping so to speak(they Were fabric covered, I assume??) It added to that, "What the Hell??!! I'm being Hit!!! Feeling/adrenalin-surprise).

Good campaign thus far!!

bird_brain
09-08-2004, 05:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fliegeroffizier:
I probably overlooked it in the ReadMe file for "TheBlue" campaign(which I've erased)... I would recommend that this strange aspect be highlighted/explained in the Readme for new folks downloading the campaign, if it is not already in the readMe.

Good campaign thus far!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks for that! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I am afraid I did neglect to mention this slightly unorthodox aspect of the "Gladiator" cockpit. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif
I will put in a comment about how the fighters came to Egypt by way of Finland. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://jyarbrough.homestead.com/Paper.jpg
"The Blue" Desert Campaign, The Hell Hawks Ardennes Campaign &
The World's Greatest Aces Collection are all *here* (http://jyarbrough.homestead.com/Files.html)

Doug_Thompson
09-08-2004, 06:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fliegeroffizier:
... Meanwhile, it is GREAT fun!!! Makes my mouth water for a State-of-the-Art WWI flight sim!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen to that! Flying "antiques" is a blast, far more of a turn and whirl dogfight than the energy-based tactics of just about every other plane in IL-2.

I figure it's a matter of time before Oleg & Co. have no WWII Worlds left to conquer and go for a WWI simulation. It could be a long time -- after Pacific Fighters they still have the Battle of Britain next and then, presumably, the Mediterranean Theater. They could even go for Korea after Pacific Fighters, using many of the same types or modifications of them.

Anyway, back to topic. I think the "antiques" are a blast to fly -- against other antiques. They're dead meat against any decent WWII monoplane, who'd boom and zoom them. At least they'd be a challenging target.

http://www.model-news.com/projekt/335col/baerlog.jpg
Proud Charter Member of the Do-Do Birds Luftwhiners Chorus

WTE_Galway
09-08-2004, 06:29 PM
we need the stringbag next http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

F19_Orheim
09-09-2004, 04:05 AM
I totally agree, if you are looking for an intense dogfight, look for a server with J8A:s, Chaikas and CR42's - it can't get more intense than that.. I really miss Virtual Pilots 2, which had an excellent plane setup...

http://216.12.202.106/~f19vs/F19bannerA.jpg
http://216.12.202.106/~f19vs/F19banner.jpg
_________________
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ELEM
09-09-2004, 04:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
I totally agree, if you are looking for an intense dogfight, look for a server with J8A:s, Chaikas and CR42's - it can't get more intense than that.. I really miss Virtual Pilots 2, which had an excellent plane setup...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So can you name a couple? Preferably without icons enabled. It's so hard to find a non-full real server without icons enabled.

I wouldn't join any club that would have ME as a member!

http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Elem_Klimov/I-16_desktop.jpg http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Elem_Klimov/dhm_787_small.jpg

F19_Orheim
09-09-2004, 04:47 AM
LOL, actually "no". F16 has a few maps where these can be flown, but they appear too seldom..... Unfortunatley most people prefer late war planes...

http://216.12.202.106/~f19vs/F19bannerA.jpg
http://216.12.202.106/~f19vs/F19banner.jpg
_________________
"Sine pennis volare hau facilest: meae alea pennas non habent."

F16_Rider
09-09-2004, 05:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
LOL, actually "no". F16 has a few maps where these can be flown, but they appear too seldom..... Unfortunatley most people prefer late war planes...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Most people like to see the action at the front line before the map rotation time is up... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

That's right Ice, I am dangerous...
http://img36.photobucket.com/albums/v109/F16_Neo/sigs%20fur%20alle/sig_rider.jpg
AMD K6II-366MHz | 64MB RAM | TNT2 Ultra 32MB | SB 128 | Modified TAC-2

F19_Orheim
09-09-2004, 09:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F16_Rider:
Most people like to see the action at the front line before the map rotation time is up... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't listen to Rider guys, he loves making fun of my love for Crappy planes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

mmmm BULLENS eller? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://216.12.202.106/~f19vs/F19bannerA.jpg
http://216.12.202.106/~f19vs/F19banner.jpg
_________________
"Sine pennis volare hau facilest: meae alea pennas non habent."