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View Full Version : how much did muzzle canvas help on wing profile



LLv34_Stafroty
06-06-2005, 05:50 PM
i mean like in hurricane, spits and other planes which had internal weapons in wing, with no gunbarrel outside wingprofile, they hide the muzzle with red canvas or such for reason. it does affect on FM bit when u first time shoot and that way break that canvas cos wing profile breaks.

anyone knows what i mean?
should this be modelled in sim?

LLv34_Stafroty
06-06-2005, 05:50 PM
i mean like in hurricane, spits and other planes which had internal weapons in wing, with no gunbarrel outside wingprofile, they hide the muzzle with red canvas or such for reason. it does affect on FM bit when u first time shoot and that way break that canvas cos wing profile breaks.

anyone knows what i mean?
should this be modelled in sim?

Fennec_P
06-06-2005, 05:52 PM
It was to keep sand and other foreign matter out of the gun barrels.

LLv34_Stafroty
06-06-2005, 06:05 PM
it still breaks wing profile when guns used http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

VW-IceFire
06-06-2005, 09:23 PM
I'm sure it breaks the wings profile up a bit...but as I understand it, it was a fairly clean break, cost maybe 1 mph in top speed (guessing), and was entirely worth the increased reliability.

I mean, if something like enlarged radiators (i.e. the Speed Spitfire) costed them 3mph in speed off the top, then I'm sure something like a bit of tape is going to be minimal.

Fennec_P
06-06-2005, 10:05 PM
I think he means the opposite. The tape helps the speed by covering the gun ports.

But I guess it would be a negligable difference either way.

LLv34_Stafroty
06-07-2005, 07:30 AM
ho it affects maneuverability, ie turns etc? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif
its like counter slat http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

VW-IceFire
06-07-2005, 08:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fennec_P:
I think he means the opposite. The tape helps the speed by covering the gun ports.

But I guess it would be a negligable difference either way. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh right...you could look at it that way. And either way its not going to count for much. A bit...but not much.

LLv34_Stafroty
06-07-2005, 10:41 AM
how sure you are about this IceFire? are speed test made when canvas is still ok? same with turn curves?
just look how big part guns take in front of hurricane wing, 12 machineguns total. spit had some machineguns too under canvas till first shot fired. sure it make wing profile at edge way different than it would be best for flying. is there any proof how much those effected flyin?

Airmail109
06-07-2005, 02:03 PM
Gun port tape was to tell ground crew if the aircraft had fired any ammo on first glance...this means they didnt have to waste time checking if they needed to reload the plane during periods when scrambles were frequent (ie the Battle of Britain) and yes the difference they make cannot be noticed by real life warbird pilots, i have already talked to them about this.

LStarosta
06-07-2005, 02:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LLv34_Stafroty:
ho it affects maneuverability </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought for a second you were quoting Shakespeare...

TX-EcoDragon
06-07-2005, 03:01 PM
Hey you never know, the airflow disturbances might act like vortex generators, and give better high alpha flight!

;-D

GreyBeast
06-07-2005, 03:53 PM
...and all this time I thought that cloth was there so that, when going into a dive, the bullets wouldn't fall out of the barrel http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

VW-IceFire
06-07-2005, 03:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LLv34_Stafroty:
how sure you are about this IceFire? are speed test made when canvas is still ok? same with turn curves?
just look how big part guns take in front of hurricane wing, 12 machineguns total. spit had some machineguns too under canvas till first shot fired. sure it make wing profile at edge way different than it would be best for flying. is there any proof how much those effected flyin? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I've never seen it talked about. But its not a huge effect...its a small hole where the bullets came through the tape...the rest of it remains on the wing. No doubt some attention was payed to making it have the smallest impact. But from what I understand, nobody talks about it because it has such a small influence. Other elements like riveting, surface, and paint seem to have more of an influence on speed than a little bit of tape that may not be perfectly shaped after firing guns.

heywooood
06-07-2005, 06:23 PM
only done immediately after re-loading the gun to
1 keep dirt out
2 let everyone know the guns were loaded
3 let pilot and ground crew know which (if any)
gun had failed
4 keep the bullets in the gun in a dive...:P

LStarosta
06-07-2005, 06:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GreyBeast:
...and all this time I thought that cloth was there so that, when going into a dive, the bullets wouldn't fall out of the barrel http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMFAO... You're one funny bastard.

TAGERT.
06-07-2005, 08:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LLv34_Stafroty:
i mean like in hurricane, spits and other planes which had internal weapons in wing, with no gunbarrel outside wingprofile, they hide the muzzle with red canvas or such for reason. it does affect on FM bit when u first time shoot and that way break that canvas cos wing profile breaks.

anyone knows what i mean?
should this be modelled in sim? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I dont claim to know the MAIN reason for taping up the holes, Im sure there were many. As for the effect, I have a NACA report on a P51 mustang that listed stall speeds for with and without the tape, so, what ever it was it was a MEASURABLE difference.. Which is suprising when you consider the resolution of the test equipment they had back then.

Alot of research actully went into it all.. Take a look at the F7F and I think the F8F gun port openings on the wings.. the gun barrel tip is resesed and the opening has a kind of tapered open mouth look to it.. That was on purpose because the NACA found that shape reduced the negative effects

Oilburner_TAW
06-07-2005, 10:40 PM
Well, if you look at the tiny airtab added to the corsair's right wing to keep it from dropping in a stall (or keeping it from "snap dropping"), you can tell that just a little bit of change on a wing's leading edge can make a LOT of difference.

re: the F4U-1
"Other changes included a raised tailwheel leg, with a pneumatic instead of solid tire, to improve the pilot's forward view on the ground; and an almost unnoticeable 15 centimeter (6 inch) fixed "stall strip" that was fitted to the leading edge of the right wing outboard of the guns to ensure that both wings stalled at the same time on landing approach."