PDA

View Full Version : Why They Called It The Grumman Iron Works



NS38th_Aristaus
10-27-2005, 04:08 AM
The following is fm the summer 2005 issue of WINGS OF GOLD (The Voice of Naval Aviation, Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow.)
By RADM E.L. "Whitey" Feightner.

In June 1944 in the Southern Philippine area, on the Island of Mindanao, the aircraft carrier USS Bunker Hill (CV-17) was operating as a part of Pacific Fleet Task Force 58. It was decided that a guerrilla headquarters and training base should be destroyed prior to the landings on the island of Leyte. I volunteered to fly an F6F-5 Hellcat photo plane on a mission to obtain pictures of the anti-aircraft batteries near the adjacent airfield.
Inbound to the objective area I climbed to 15,000 feet above a broken cloud layer and commenced a steep high-speed approach into the target area through the cloud cover. At 4,000 feet, while still in the clouds, I discovered that, contrary to the latest intelligence reports, at least some of the enemy guns were radar controlled. The Hellcat sustained two hits from a 75mm battery. One shell exploded inside the aft fuselage severing the rudder tab and the other took off both the port stabilizer and elevator. Somehow I managed to regain control of the aircraft and proceeded down the middle of the runway at about five feet off the ground taking photos of the AA batteries under the trees at the edge of the runway. At the end of the pass I pulled up over the palm trees and started up the hillside toward the sea but was hit in the port wing and was immediately engulfed in smoke and flames.
Remembering that the natives in this area were hostile head hunters I continued toward the top of a 4,000 foot ridge hoping to reach the water where I could bail out. Upon reaching the top of the ridge the Hellcat exploded and things became very quiet. When I opened my eyes I realized I was still in the cockpit and the fire was out. I immediately nosed down towards the water as the plane started a left roll. It was at this point that I realized the explosion had blown away all of the left wing aft of the main spar, where fuel and ammo were stored. All that remained of the left wing, from the wing-fold to the wing tip, was a 14 inch area from the leading edge of the wing back to the main spar.
Happily, I found that controlled flight was possible but only at air speeds between 90 and 105 knots. Outside this speed range the lift curve departed from the wing and the wing stalled. Deafened by the explosion and busy with regaining control of the aircraft I hadn't noticed that the engine was still running. After checking the gauges the engine appeared to be operating normally. Crossing the beach I spotted Bunker Hill about 40 miles ahead and decided there was a chance to reach the Task Force before bailing out. During this return flight my hearing gradually returned and I radioed the carrier of the problems.
Ariving overhead, another Hellcat joined on me. The ship advised that as soon as the ongoing launch was completed the plane guard destroyer would be detached and I could ditch alongside or bail out and be picked up by boat.
While awaiting the completion of the launch, I lowered my landing gear in order to relieve some of the forward stick pressure I was experiencing. The pilot on my wing told me the left wheel was gone but the tail hook was down and appeared to be locked in position.
This presented a new option. The aircraft below had launched and someone on the carrier asked if I intended to bail out or ditch. I asked for permission to land aboard rather than go into the sea. After a short pause the voice asked, "Did you get the photos?" "Yes sir!," I proclaimed strongly.
There was another pause.
The ship responded, "The Admiral says it is your option." I said I would land on the carrier.
I commenced a no-flap approach at 95 knots and managed a successful landing, catching the number three wire. I came to a stop without any further damage to the aircraft.
The photos came out well and were used very effectively in planning the demolition of the sites the following morning. The carrier had the spare parts necessary to repair the Hellcat and ten days later the fighter was back on the flight schedule. It flew regularly for the rest of the deployment.

This is a good story and is a testament as to how well built and survivable these aircraft were in the right hands.

NS38th_Aristaus
10-27-2005, 04:08 AM
The following is fm the summer 2005 issue of WINGS OF GOLD (The Voice of Naval Aviation, Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow.)
By RADM E.L. "Whitey" Feightner.

In June 1944 in the Southern Philippine area, on the Island of Mindanao, the aircraft carrier USS Bunker Hill (CV-17) was operating as a part of Pacific Fleet Task Force 58. It was decided that a guerrilla headquarters and training base should be destroyed prior to the landings on the island of Leyte. I volunteered to fly an F6F-5 Hellcat photo plane on a mission to obtain pictures of the anti-aircraft batteries near the adjacent airfield.
Inbound to the objective area I climbed to 15,000 feet above a broken cloud layer and commenced a steep high-speed approach into the target area through the cloud cover. At 4,000 feet, while still in the clouds, I discovered that, contrary to the latest intelligence reports, at least some of the enemy guns were radar controlled. The Hellcat sustained two hits from a 75mm battery. One shell exploded inside the aft fuselage severing the rudder tab and the other took off both the port stabilizer and elevator. Somehow I managed to regain control of the aircraft and proceeded down the middle of the runway at about five feet off the ground taking photos of the AA batteries under the trees at the edge of the runway. At the end of the pass I pulled up over the palm trees and started up the hillside toward the sea but was hit in the port wing and was immediately engulfed in smoke and flames.
Remembering that the natives in this area were hostile head hunters I continued toward the top of a 4,000 foot ridge hoping to reach the water where I could bail out. Upon reaching the top of the ridge the Hellcat exploded and things became very quiet. When I opened my eyes I realized I was still in the cockpit and the fire was out. I immediately nosed down towards the water as the plane started a left roll. It was at this point that I realized the explosion had blown away all of the left wing aft of the main spar, where fuel and ammo were stored. All that remained of the left wing, from the wing-fold to the wing tip, was a 14 inch area from the leading edge of the wing back to the main spar.
Happily, I found that controlled flight was possible but only at air speeds between 90 and 105 knots. Outside this speed range the lift curve departed from the wing and the wing stalled. Deafened by the explosion and busy with regaining control of the aircraft I hadn't noticed that the engine was still running. After checking the gauges the engine appeared to be operating normally. Crossing the beach I spotted Bunker Hill about 40 miles ahead and decided there was a chance to reach the Task Force before bailing out. During this return flight my hearing gradually returned and I radioed the carrier of the problems.
Ariving overhead, another Hellcat joined on me. The ship advised that as soon as the ongoing launch was completed the plane guard destroyer would be detached and I could ditch alongside or bail out and be picked up by boat.
While awaiting the completion of the launch, I lowered my landing gear in order to relieve some of the forward stick pressure I was experiencing. The pilot on my wing told me the left wheel was gone but the tail hook was down and appeared to be locked in position.
This presented a new option. The aircraft below had launched and someone on the carrier asked if I intended to bail out or ditch. I asked for permission to land aboard rather than go into the sea. After a short pause the voice asked, "Did you get the photos?" "Yes sir!," I proclaimed strongly.
There was another pause.
The ship responded, "The Admiral says it is your option." I said I would land on the carrier.
I commenced a no-flap approach at 95 knots and managed a successful landing, catching the number three wire. I came to a stop without any further damage to the aircraft.
The photos came out well and were used very effectively in planning the demolition of the sites the following morning. The carrier had the spare parts necessary to repair the Hellcat and ten days later the fighter was back on the flight schedule. It flew regularly for the rest of the deployment.

This is a good story and is a testament as to how well built and survivable these aircraft were in the right hands.

ddsflyer
10-27-2005, 10:51 AM
Actually it was called that because the framework of the main building was made from old iron bridge trusses. Hate to burst your bubble.

73GIAP_Milan
10-27-2005, 11:36 AM
ddsflyer is correct, but later on in the life of the Hellcat it got indeed as stated above in the excerpt, known for it's ruggedness to sustain very heavy battle damage and still be able to limp home.

The F4F Wildcat had the same structure and so did it's predecessors. Grumman's were tough.
In the game however they are not... the F4F can take alot but the F6F seems to let down on that.

Anyway, a great story above! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

actionhank1786
10-27-2005, 11:54 AM
I dont think the title was meant to be taken so literally.
It's a journalist thing, they spice up titles to draw readers in...
But yeah, that's one tough plane.
Makes me think of all the A-10 stories you hear and see.
Too bad the recon plane didn't get photos of itself, those would be nice to see.

Tater-SW-
10-27-2005, 01:04 PM
Grummans in PF lose controls if you look at them funny.

tater

BigA21
10-27-2005, 01:52 PM
During the time frame of the invasion of the Mariannas, F6F airmen were often heard repeating:

"...they had more faith in Grumman than God."

The message remains the same - as testified to by the men who trusted their lives in Grumman iron.

fordfan25
10-27-2005, 03:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 73GIAP_Milan:
ddsflyer is correct, but later on in the life of the Hellcat it got indeed as stated above in the excerpt, known for it's ruggedness to sustain very heavy battle damage and still be able to limp home.

The F4F Wildcat had the same structure and so did it's predecessors. Grumman's were tough.
In the game however they are not... the F4F can take alot but the F6F seems to let down on that.

Anyway, a great story above! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

agreed

73GIAP_Milan
10-27-2005, 04:23 PM
it is a real shame that this aircraft got handicapped so much by the devteam..

should we whine more about it? I'll be happy to bring the cheese and start the first toast..

Bottoms Up, gentlemen! I want historical toughness on this bird aswell as the F4F, P-47, F4U and Fw190 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Scharnhorst1943
10-27-2005, 06:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 73GIAP_Milan:
it is a real shame that this aircraft got handicapped so much by the devteam..

should we whine more about it? I'll be happy to bring the cheese and start the first toast..

Bottoms Up, gentlemen! I want historical toughness on this bird aswell as the F4F, P-47, F4U and Fw190 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


If you start a whine, pilots who favor Japanese planes will whine about it being to impossable to be fun, which I agree. If the F6F is reduced from "Invincible God killing machine of death and destiny" to "Almost Perfect Killing machine" and allow the Japanese aircraft a glimps of hope, then that is fair.

HunglikePony
10-27-2005, 06:19 PM
it should be damage model in game to recreate same as damage like in story with half wing and so on, would make for great story and flying saga, pictures would be good to have also.
As damage model is in game now impossible to do, plane not fly with even small damage and you crash evertime, should be plane still able to fly with emphasize on pilot skill to bring bad damage plane home, make for great skill and realisnm??? sorry bad english. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Grey_Mouser67
10-27-2005, 07:21 PM
No one story should alter the modelling of an aircraft, but those Grummans were legendary in their toughness and rugedness...Oleg has not done them or the Jug justice in this sim...it is really ashame. Even with the corrected damage modelling, I get the feeling that the Fw is the toughest damage model, or the lagg, but the Jug, Hellcat, Corsair and Wildcats are lightweights compared to their historical performance.

Awesome story...I think I would have wanted to fly a Hellcat if I were in the war.

BSS_Goat
10-27-2005, 08:41 PM
HunglikePony ..... thats funny .....HunglikePony

73GIAP_Milan
10-28-2005, 02:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scharnhorst1943:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">quote:
Originally posted by 73GIAP_Milan:
it is a real shame that this aircraft got handicapped so much by the devteam..

should we whine more about it? I'll be happy to bring the cheese and start the first toast..

Bottoms Up, gentlemen! I want historical toughness on this bird aswell as the F4F, P-47, F4U and Fw190 :Indifferent: </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


If you start a whine, pilots who favor Japanese planes will whine about it being to impossable to be fun, which I agree. If the F6F is reduced from "Invincible God killing machine of death and destiny" to "Almost Perfect Killing machine" and allow the Japanese aircraft a glimps of hope, then that is fair. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You favor equality over realism here? Then go fly CFS or so..or create a server where everybody flies the same plane.

I want my historical toughness on the planes i mentioned, most ppl here agree with me i guess judging by the replies http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

pourshot
10-28-2005, 03:11 AM
The p40 could fly with plenty of flak damage as well.
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/ump.jpg

KIMURA
10-28-2005, 04:37 AM
The Avenger can do it better, Pourshot. Note the missing outer wing section and the damaged dorsal fillet. Have an look how the pilot tries to compensate the missing port wing lift with the starboard aileronhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif (got that pic at home in a wider format. Can post it if wished)

edit:The pilot made it back to an escort DD near the Bennington and succesfully ditched.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

http://mypage.bluewin.ch/a-z/kimura-hei/tip_gone.jpeg

Kapteeni
10-28-2005, 05:20 AM
Kanichi Kashimura was called "Man who came back with one wing".He crashed with hes A5M2 96 Claude to unknown enemy plane in China 09.12 1937 and made it back to home after loosing 1/3 of planes left wing. There are many stories about like that about Zeroes, Me:s, Spifires, Yaks.... But Grumman was strong. It was hard to shoot down.

pourshot
10-28-2005, 05:58 AM
Kimura the p40 made a perfect landing and was flying again in no time, ditching is for wussus http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

KIMURA
10-28-2005, 12:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pourshot:
Kimura the p40 made a perfect landing and was flying again in no time, ditching is for wussus http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nuhh, Pourshot. Even fragile Japanese stuff does it better than "your" P-40 did http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif. Here the A5M2 96 Claude of Kanichi Kashimura(already mentioned by Kapteeni).
http://mypage.bluewin.ch/a-z/kimura-hei/M5.jpg

Here the better and larger pic.(btw I think landing atop the flightdeck of a carrier is much more tricky than landing somewhere of a flat nowhere, like that P-40 did) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif
http://mypage.bluewin.ch/a-z/kimura-hei/Avenger_damage.jpg

KIMURA
10-28-2005, 01:06 PM
Uhhmm, I thought it over I think it's better to pay respect to those pilots and their flying skills. They brought their crew mates or themself safely home and that these surely were the most fearsome moments in their young lives.

KIMURA
10-28-2005, 01:15 PM
taken out of Genda's Blade. Hardly to believe that -1D made it back and brought 2nd LT Alson Frazer to safety. He ran into some N1K2-J of the 343 Kokutai and became familar with the effectiveness George armament.

http://mypage.bluewin.ch/a-z/kimura-hei/f4u.jpg

BSS_Goat
10-28-2005, 01:16 PM
I would have dropped my tanks....

horseback
10-28-2005, 02:08 PM
American aircraft in this game seem to be lightweights in the DM department. In general, US design philosphy was much more concerned to bringing the pilot home, and the aircraft were bigger and 'overengineered' accordingly. As a group, they were much more sturdy than the aircraft flown by other air forces, and set the example the British late-war Typhoon and Tempests followed.

The 'glass jaw' of R-2800 engined aircraft is inexcusable, especially when compared to the much more fragile BMW-801 or DB-60X series aircraft in this sim.

cheers

horseback

Grey_Mouser67
10-28-2005, 05:48 PM
The more rugged American planes really should not suffer from structural failures exept on very rare occasions from very large weapons like the Mk108's....some of the more rugged American aircraft include Jug, Hellcat, Corsair, Avenger, P-40, Wildcat, B-26, B-17, P-61, and the Helldiver.

Yes American planes were built with a different philosophy in mind and that philosophy is not accurately depicted in this game...large chunks of the plane could be missing without the plane suffering structural failure. The P&W may have been the most robust engine of the war...it would get my vote...the DM is poor and Oleg really aught to address it...the tail sections falling off, fires and the weakness of the radial specifically.

In addition, I get the suspicion that planes losing control surfaces was probably a Russian thing...I just can't find any references to that occurring in American aircraft. Yes they would go into compressibility and then shake apart or lawdart into the ground, but not this pcs falling off without compressibility....

Tater-SW-
10-28-2005, 06:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KIMURA:
taken out of Genda's Blade. Hardly to believe that -1D made it back and brought 2nd LT Alson Frazer to safety. He ran into some N1K2-J of the 343 Kokutai and became familar with the effectiveness George armament.

http://mypage.bluewin.ch/a-z/kimura-hei/f4u.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That looks like a collision to me.

tater

Tater-SW-
10-28-2005, 06:15 PM
Oh, and I agree about the glass jaw engines. PW R2800s came home with entire cylinder heards blown off (flown over a hundred miles like that).

tater

SkyChimp
10-28-2005, 06:20 PM
Collision, exactly. I've seen, but don't have, Genda's Blade. I've seen that photo and caption and come away with the conclusion that it is not accurately labelled in the book. It looks like a plane, maybe a bomber, struck it from the rear, sheared thru the rudder, the fuselage, knocked the canopy off and sheared off the end of the wing.

SkyChimp
10-28-2005, 06:30 PM
I always though this was a neat photo:

http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/hellcat.jpg

73GIAP_Milan
10-29-2005, 11:22 AM
Show that stuff to Oleg...

Anyone also got pics of damaged P&W2800 engines?

RidgeR5
10-29-2005, 01:11 PM
Few things in war are as enjoyable as seeing an aircraft come home with so much damage it should get a ticket for defying the laws of physics...

Tater-SW-
10-29-2005, 06:26 PM
I was messinf around in a little mission I made with Oscars vs a few stand ins for the very early war. An H8H (no gunners) as a commercial flyingboat, and some DB-3s as Dutch Martin bombers.

Anyway, I ran out of ammo after muliple passes on the bombers, smoking one badly, more leaking.

I decided to try and ram the one I had killed the gunners on sinc eit was "safe." I closed at very slow speed, and cut the empanage right off, and my engine kept running fine!. In an Oscar.

So I tried the exact same thing with a F4U. I can do the same damage, but the engine quits every time. Same vs even a Kate. There was a RL kill when a F4U chewed the rear of a recon plane off at high alt, and flew a long way home and landed with a few feet missing off the props. In PF, the oscar is tougher than a F4U. Lovely.

tater

J_Weaver
10-29-2005, 06:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ridge_Runner_5:
Few things in war are as enjoyable as seeing an aircraft come home with so much damage it should get a ticket for defying the laws of physics... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What I want to know is how the heck did that Avenger and F4U stay in the air with such huge chuncks of the wings missing? It just doesn't seem possible.

73GIAP_Milan
10-30-2005, 05:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by J_Weaver:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ridge_Runner_5:
Few things in war are as enjoyable as seeing an aircraft come home with so much damage it should get a ticket for defying the laws of physics... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What I want to know is how the heck did that Avenger and F4U stay in the air with such huge chuncks of the wings missing? It just doesn't seem possible. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only the pilots who flew the actual planes home know for sure. My guess it is to thank to; proper trimming, pilot's will, still functioning controls, engine power and the sheer strength of the plane's construction plus a great deal of luck.

Kuna15
10-30-2005, 07:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_Goat:
I would have dropped my tanks.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My first thought.
Anyhow if we left out fear as an explanation (he forget to release them), pilot must have a really good reason to left the drop tank attached (maybe he needed all fuel to rtb).

Anyway it is interesting to see airplane that damaged that can fly.

Tater-SW-
10-30-2005, 08:20 AM
Actually, given that the plane probably had to use excessive power to remain aloft with so much wing area gone, he might have decided he needed the fuel.

tater

KIMURA
10-30-2005, 11:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_Goat:
I would have dropped my tanks.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
2nd LT Frazer had problems releasing his belly tanks, as well as his squatmate 1LT Russell Hunchar in the same sortie. Both Cors became more or less damaged.

That damage seems like a collsion of or a mix of collision (maybe occured during landing) and hits by ammo. Elevator tip (trailing edge) and hole underneath wind shield could be results of cannon strikes.

HunglikePony
10-30-2005, 02:03 PM
look like ground collision to me, no air combat there. this picture not real of air battle just runway accdent.

Skyraider3D
10-17-2007, 02:29 AM
*I have retracted my earlier statement here regarding the heavily damaged Corsair*

Yes, the book apears to be mislabelled and from loss records it would seem that 1st Lt. R. Hunchar had a ground collision with 2nd Lt. M.W. Harke on 4 July 1945. The aircraft shown is FG-1D BuNo.88441, piloted by Hunchar. Harke was piloting FG-1D BuNo.88399, both of VMF-113.

Harke's right wingtip cut into the rudder and rear fuselage of Hunchar's machine with such force that the bulkhead behind the cockpit split. Meanwhile Harke's propeller obliterated Hunchar's left wing.


NB. The combat with 343rd Ku was over a week earlier and therefore not related.

Philipscdrw
10-18-2007, 10:08 AM
Necromancy! You can't speak to the dead Skyraider! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

All these photos of aircraft coming back with huge damage... there aren't any photos of F6Fs diving into the sea after the engine seized from an oil leak caused by battle damage, are there? That's because in those situations no-one has time to formate with the stricken aircraft and start taking photos...

Just because the R2800 could fly with one cylinder missing, doesn't mean it always could take that much damage and survive. In fact, much more trivial damage somewhere else could fail the entire engine.

IDF_Raam
10-18-2007, 10:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Crossing the beach I spotted Bunker Hill about 40 miles ahead </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I wish I could do it in the game...

tools4foolsA
10-24-2007, 01:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">All these photos of aircraft coming back with huge damage... there aren't any photos of F6Fs diving into the sea after the engine seized from an oil leak caused by battle damage, are there? That's because in those situations no-one has time to formate with the stricken aircraft and start taking photos...

Just because the R2800 could fly with one cylinder missing, doesn't mean it always could take that much damage and survive. In fact, much more trivial damage somewhere else could fail the entire engine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very true indeed.
What we see on those photos are not the norm.

If you do a little testing (arcade mode) you will find out that P-47 and Hellcat need more hits to be brought down than 109's or other aircraft - Zeroes and Ki-43 are particularly frail.

If you think your plane should be an undestroyable flying tank then I think there is anoption somewhere for you in the difficulty settings... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

There sure are some issues regarding teh Dm of some planes, but this is rather due to the limitations of the game engine. I'm sure that wil be much improved in SoW series with much more detailed aircraft models.
But until then we will have to put up what we got.
*****

Giantiguana20
10-26-2007, 10:35 PM
I can imagine damage modeling is probably one of the hardest things to do in a sim. You have to go off of what ever stories you can get your hands on and guess based on the structure of the plane. I probably had a 109 pilot ready to throw his monitor out the window online one day. I was flying a jug and they were vulching the runway. I took hits on take off then he imediately dropped in on me in the air. I'm reasonably sure he dumped all of his cannons and most of his machine guns into me, and in response I slowly circled around and landed my plane. So... I've got no complaints.

horseback
10-27-2007, 03:58 PM
The problem with damage modelling of R-2800 equipped fighters is not associated with the overall fuselage--it's strictly confined to the fact that a single 7mm round through the cowling area ALWAYS stops the engine.

Even if we take the fact that hitting the nose of an aircraft is much easier in this game than in real life, the R-2800 was probably the the most rugged and reliable aircraft engine of WWII; it could literally take a lickin' and keep on tickin', and it did so on more verifiable documented occasions than any other engine that saw combat in WWII.

It wasn't just on P-47s that this quality was demonstrated on multiple occasions- it happened with Hellcats, Corsairs, Black Widows and B-26 Marauders. The reality was that it was often able to take several heavy caliber rounds into the engine compartment and keep going, even with big chunks and whole cylinder heads knocked off. It didn't get the rep out of thin air or from comic books.

Add to this that the area within the cowlings of these aircraft was mostly open space compared to most other radial engine installations, and it seems that the damage modelling is more like a vindictive decision rather than a reasoned one based on the record.

It was the exception when a single light round was able to find its way to a critical component and disable the engine immediately.

That's why they were called "Golden BBs".

To pretend that the FW 190 or La-5/7 series radials could take more damage simply because they had fans or bulbous spinners in front of them is simply specious.

cheers

horseback