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View Full Version : Is it just me or does the 109 Emil kinda have sluggish elevators?



Ba5tard5word
09-06-2009, 02:38 AM
NOTE: I AM NOT LOOKING FOR A FLAME WAR ABOUT THE 109. Last time I asked a similar question (about the Corsair) I triggered some sort of pointless flame war and the topic was completely deleted before I could read all the responses.


Anyway...

I'm flying FlatSpinMan's Afrika campaign which has you fly a Bf-109 E. I've never really flown an Emil before. It's ok, just kinda slow. But I find that it seems pretty slow to pull up and down compared to other planes. Usually when I pull way back on the stick a plane will veer wildly...with the Emil it just slowly moves. I guess it's nice because it's steady and lets you keep control, but it's annoying when I want to make a drastic maneuver.

Anyway just wondering if this is typical.

Ba5tard5word
09-06-2009, 02:38 AM
NOTE: I AM NOT LOOKING FOR A FLAME WAR ABOUT THE 109. Last time I asked a similar question (about the Corsair) I triggered some sort of pointless flame war and the topic was completely deleted before I could read all the responses.


Anyway...

I'm flying FlatSpinMan's Afrika campaign which has you fly a Bf-109 E. I've never really flown an Emil before. It's ok, just kinda slow. But I find that it seems pretty slow to pull up and down compared to other planes. Usually when I pull way back on the stick a plane will veer wildly...with the Emil it just slowly moves. I guess it's nice because it's steady and lets you keep control, but it's annoying when I want to make a drastic maneuver.

Anyway just wondering if this is typical.

MD_Titus
09-06-2009, 02:59 AM
elevator response in all 109s is not the best, particularly at higher speeds. fairly normal, but what are you used ot flying that veers wildly when yanking bac on the stick? 190, for example, has excellent elevator response.

Ba5tard5word
09-06-2009, 03:45 AM
Well I didn't mean veer so much as that a lot of planes will pull back sharply, and if they have a tendency to stall at speed (like the 190) they will flip. (though of course the 109 won't stall at speed like a 190)

Just wondering if the Emil is slower to move around than the later versions, since I've never really found the F or G version to be very sluggish, though really I don't have much experience with the 109 compared to the 190 and other planes.

Or it might just be that I haven't played Il-2 much in a while.

PanzerAce
09-06-2009, 04:13 AM
Sounds like you TBH dude. I find the emil can turn fight with almost everything short pf a biplace, I-16, or A5M/early KI stuff.

Waldo.Pepper
09-06-2009, 04:32 AM
I think you are packing too much gas. Get the weight down and the speed up and you fall in love all over again.

Bremspropeller
09-06-2009, 05:31 AM
Too much gas in a 109? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

DuxCorvan
09-06-2009, 05:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
Too much gas in a 109? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, not the 109. Him. Read again:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
I think you are packing too much gas. Get the weight down </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Waldo.Pepper
09-06-2009, 01:00 PM
Somebody got it.

DKoor
09-06-2009, 01:44 PM
The only really effective counter measure (apart from losing weight) is trim. It really works effectively.

Freiwillige
09-06-2009, 01:55 PM
The 109 is very stall resistant due to the washout and leading edge slats. The 109E series is actually quite maneuverable in regards to the elevator response and sustained turns.

Remember that during the Battle of Britain 109E pilots often could turn with Spitfire Mk1's and II's due to the fact that only the better Spit pilots could pull their turns tighter without fear of a wing stalling and sending them into a snaproll and spin.

Treetop64
09-06-2009, 02:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
NOTE: I AM NOT LOOKING FOR A FLAME WAR ABOUT THE 109. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, well it's only a matter of time...

Kettenhunde
09-06-2009, 03:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> The 109 is very stall resistant due to the washout </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no aerodynamic twist in the Bf-109's wing design.

Freiwillige
09-06-2009, 04:11 PM
I stand corrected again.

It was the Spitfire that had the washout! D'oh my memory is slipping in my old age.

Ba5tard5word
09-06-2009, 05:22 PM
Played some more missions. I guess I just need to get used to it, but it does seem a bit more stable and slower to move than other 109's, but then like I said I'm not a 109 expert.

The Emil is an interesting plane because it is hard to get over 450 kph at sea level, but in a dive it very quickly gets to 600 kph.

Kettenhunde
09-06-2009, 08:32 PM
Not a issue at all Freiwillige.

mortoma
09-07-2009, 02:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Is it just me or does the 109 Emil kinda have sluggish elevators? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>It's just you. Just being my snarky self as usual!!

Viper2005_
09-07-2009, 02:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
Too much gas in a 109? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
= on fire.

Unfortunately the optimum emoticon for this situation appears to have been removed... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

doraemil
09-07-2009, 03:08 AM
my experience the F and G have a bit more response (noticable with playin with throttle)

but the E can turn sharper, and the series in general can recover energy pretty good. E is pretty forgiving. I sometimes forget and fly the 190 like a Emil and . Yeah. Not pretty.

To me its not sluggish. For a true sluggish speaker, try the 110. And I do listen to sir trim alot.

However if you have a main plane such as a Zero or LA-7, then you'll have to get used to the Emil.


It does get sluggish if you're close to rip your wings off speed range.

LOL@ the fuel thing . . .

Bremspropeller
09-07-2009, 11:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">= on fire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In game, there is no "fire" in the 109.

It's "fi-BOOM" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

jermin122
09-09-2009, 08:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
The only really effective counter measure (apart from losing weight) is trim. It really works effectively. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not really. Oleg introduced several seconds' delay to the trim system in the recent game patch. You can't use elevator trim as effectively as elevator now.

Kettenhunde
09-09-2009, 10:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Oleg introduced several seconds' delay to the trim system in the recent game patch. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no delay on an aircraft trim system. When I turn the trim wheel I feel the force reduction instantly and simultaneously through the stick. Some control systems can reduce the amount of feel the pilot perceives.

La7_brook
09-09-2009, 08:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MD_Titus:
elevator response in all 109s is not the best, particularly at higher speeds. fairly normal, but what are you used ot flying that veers wildly when yanking bac on the stick? 190, for example, has excellent elevator response. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


High Speeds? ya got be joking if ya thinking 400kph is high speed .

elevator response is conservative by about 200kph real life . 1/3 out, Olegs close you think?

jermin122
09-09-2009, 09:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Oleg introduced several seconds' delay to the trim system in the recent game patch. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no delay on an aircraft trim system. When I turn the trim wheel I feel the force reduction instantly and simultaneously through the stick. Some control systems can reduce the amount of feel the pilot perceives. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was said that in the early versions, elevator trim could be exploited as "super" elevator. You could turn much tighter using elevator trim without losing extra energy. This was extremely useful for late-war 109s. In fact, without elevator trim, those hard tails would have become a pile of junks. Oleg simply "fixed" this exploit by introducing delay, which actually killed the fun of flying late-war 109s.

Bremspropeller
09-10-2009, 01:40 AM
There is no "delay":
Oleg just drecreased the trim-speed for a couple of seconds (goes slowly for that time) - after those three or so seconds, trim-speed accelerates.
You can actually see that on the 190's trim-gauge http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

TooCooL34
09-10-2009, 02:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jermin122:
Oleg simply "fixed" this exploit by introducing delay, which actually killed the fun of flying late-war 109s. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you had fun by using exploit, you were doing it wrong way. Late-war 109s s*ck in performance graph and concrete elevator but it is still fun to fly and can do its own against late-war allied planes with some new maneuver skills. Hope you find it out.

jermin122
09-10-2009, 02:39 AM
Obviously you have misinterpreted my words. I said it won't be fun if we don't have the trim system working like that on a real 109. What I need is a properly working elevator trim. Don't mention whether the stiffness of the 109 elevator under such a low speed is correct or not. And all I./JG53 Pikas pilots don't need things like exploit. We are all 109 veterans. You can confirm this with your Korean =815= squadmates.

TooCooL34
09-10-2009, 03:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jermin122:
Obviously you have misinterpreted my words. I said it won't be fun if we don't have the trim system working like that on a real 109. What I need is a properly working elevator trim. Don't mention whether the stiffness of the 109 elevator under such a low speed is correct or not. And all I./JG53 Pikas pilots don't need things like exploit. We are all 109 veterans. You can confirm this with your Korean =815= squadmates. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I know JG53 guys won't ever use exploit thingy.
I told you as you had written, 'removed exploit killed the fun'.
And I don't understand how current trim system can hurt historical & real 109 flying style cause I don't think one can manipulate trim wheel constantly during hard combat maneuver. (FYI, I really like to trim that I put separate 3 trim control slider, Saitek Throttle quadrant just beside CH Pro throttle.)

Anyhow, I'll take it that it wasn't your intention to deliver.

TooCooL34
09-10-2009, 03:24 AM
By the way Jermin, your sig is a bit long for this forum.
(Just to avoid post count 666. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

jermin122
09-10-2009, 03:44 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Why bother? Triple 6 symbolize extremely auspicious in Chinese culture. And I'm trying to pass the 444 post counts (extremely ominous) recently. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

M_Gunz
09-10-2009, 07:57 AM
Trim is useful as "both hands on the stick" substitute. IRL when you have to use both hands, you won't be yanking the
stick around very fast. Neutralize trim makes a good "let go". Only thing is you use it then no working the throttle
or other non-stick controls (trigger is all I can think of) until you let go.

M_Gunz
09-10-2009, 08:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jermin122:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Oleg introduced several seconds' delay to the trim system in the recent game patch. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no delay on an aircraft trim system. When I turn the trim wheel I feel the force reduction instantly and simultaneously through the stick. Some control systems can reduce the amount of feel the pilot perceives. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try running up a lot of trim Crumpp, like from neutral to full. That used to take about 10 seconds but it was reduced since.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It was said that in the early versions, elevator trim could be exploited as "super" elevator. You could turn much tighter using elevator trim without losing extra energy. This was extremely useful for late-war 109s. In fact, without elevator trim, those hard tails would have become a pile of junks. Oleg simply "fixed" this exploit by introducing delay, which actually killed the fun of flying late-war 109s. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"It was said"? So you never used it? People who said such things regarded their own faulty ways as real historic and then
made up explanations for proper use of trim from that stance. Losing extra energy comes from flying less than perfect. You
lose less when you do something right, that doesn't make it a cheat or exploit. Only exploit was how FAST you could trim
but you still turn better, accelerate quicker and go faster when trimmed for the speed you are flying. With short throw
joysticks set up for best sensitivity near center you can't do as well holding stick out from center as when trimmed, it
is that simple as Oleg explained 7 years ago.

Tully__
09-11-2009, 03:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jermin122:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Oleg introduced several seconds' delay to the trim system in the recent game patch. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no delay on an aircraft trim system. When I turn the trim wheel I feel the force reduction instantly and simultaneously through the stick. Some control systems can reduce the amount of feel the pilot perceives. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try running up a lot of trim Crumpp, like from neutral to full. That used to take about 10 seconds but it was reduced since. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, I can confirm. Original game was instant when trimming on a slider / rotary. In one of the FB patches it was slowed down so that it took about 9 - 10 seconds to go from neutral to full trim. The delay has since been toned down and it now takes only 2.5 - 3 seconds.

Tully__
09-11-2009, 03:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jermin122:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Why bother? Triple 6 symbolize extremely auspicious in Chinese culture. And I'm trying to pass the 444 post counts (extremely ominous) recently. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

TooCooL34 is right. The forum rules post includes a mention that signature images must be within reasonable limits and includes a link to the exact limits: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...1026566/m/7401097417 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5181026566/m/7401097417)

Kettenhunde
09-11-2009, 03:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> The delay has since been toned down and it now takes only 2.5 - 3 seconds.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It only takes a few seconds to run the range on a trim system. The effect is immediate too.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Original game was instant when trimming on a slider / rotary. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is seems very realistic.

M_Gunz
09-11-2009, 09:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> The delay has since been toned down and it now takes only 2.5 - 3 seconds.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It only takes a few seconds to run the range on a trim system. The effect is immediate too.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Original game was instant when trimming on a slider / rotary. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is seems very realistic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

IRL an Emil pilot could go from nose down to full nose up trim how fast? Maddox Games made a calculation based on how
many turns of the wheel and first (I guess) they did with a pilot taking care and no pressure (Oleg did post how many
turns of the wheel, etc, but no other details but the full to opposite full time) and then perhaps someone got to them
with other info.

If it took less than one second to trim neutral to full nose up then how well would you be able to trim your flight?
It's like getting fine electrical control on a 1 turn pot as opposed to a 10 turn pot, the 1 turn pot is quicker to
cover the range (10x quicker) but not the choice for fine tuning!

For normal trimming I find the IL2 delay to be no matter at all. A dozen key taps though and I have to wait a while to
find out where the nose ends up which is completely opposite to what I remember from real flying. But then in real flying
the trim took time to adjust. Personally I'd rather have the trim stop when I stop adjusting it no matter how far but
what the hey when I get no backforce from my joystick? Trim just takes TIME in IL2 when you adjust-check-adjust-check
which oh, that's what I remember from reality and not any blind wide adjustments.

I hope this whole thing will be changed with SOW to allow real time key trim.

Kettenhunde
09-11-2009, 05:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">IRL an Emil pilot could go from nose down to full nose up trim how fast? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Faster than he could go from Vmax to Vmin.

My question though is why would he need to go from stop to stop on his trim?

jermin122
09-11-2009, 06:29 PM
Now the argument becomes really interesting. I'm wondering how you gonna respond, Mr. M_Gunz. It must be painful to know your wishful thinking was actually unpractical, itsn't it? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

jermin122
09-11-2009, 06:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tully__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jermin122:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Why bother? Triple 6 symbolize extremely auspicious in Chinese culture. And I'm trying to pass the 444 post counts (extremely ominous) recently. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

TooCooL34 is right. The forum rules post includes a mention that signature images must be within reasonable limits and includes a link to the exact limits: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...1026566/m/7401097417 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5181026566/m/7401097417) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Roger on the warning of sig size. Have changed as per your request.

M_Gunz
09-11-2009, 08:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jermin122:
Now the argument becomes really interesting. I'm wondering how you gonna respond, Mr. M_Gunz. It must be painful to know your wishful thinking was actually unpractical, itsn't it? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whaaat? I mention things being used and done in IL2 and the delay in IL2 and get a reply "why would he need to go from stop
to stop on his trim?" and YOU think that put me without response?? Dude, people do go from stop to stop in IL2 so if NO DELAY
is supposed to be realistic then let's hear how that's *possible* IRL. --I-- don't remember saying squat about the realism
of the action in actual IRL flight, even in aerobatics exercises but just that there is a delay and IRL it takes time to trim
and a few full seconds to change trim widely.

*=WHY=* has to do with limited stick force allowed in IL2. Please maybe more people can remember more than one small thing
at a time? Maybe I ask too much in a forum where half-sentences have been used to redefine what is being discussed.

stalkervision
09-11-2009, 08:15 PM
what about the variable flaps too? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Kettenhunde
09-12-2009, 10:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">IRL it takes time to trim </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

PIlot has to feel the stick forces and manipulate the controls.

M_Gunz
09-12-2009, 12:08 PM
I know because I've done it. Turn the trim until the column/stick stays in place without being held.
And then a few seconds later, do it again.

To go from neutral to full stop in the time it takes to move a slider maybe a couple thumb widths... IRL possible regardless
of why? Just consider it a lame attempt at suicide or addressing an extreme speed problem very late.

Xiolablu3
09-12-2009, 02:46 PM
We have all seen the video of the 109 pilot using the trim wheel, and it takes him about 10 secs to reach full trim, and he wasnt even flying the plane, he was stationary.

Kettenhunde
09-12-2009, 03:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> and it takes him about 10 secs to reach full trim, and he wasnt even flying the plane, he was stationary.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was the flaps, not the trim....

It would take at least that long to slow the plane from Vmax to Vmin.

In normal flight you don't run the trim from stop to stop either!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Turn the trim until the column/stick stays in place without being held.
And then a few seconds later, do it again.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hate both the Cessna high wings and the Piper low wings for trim response. Some GA aircraft have poor response at the trim controls. Some of them can be downright difficult to feel the trim. It is not that the effect is not instant; it is just tough to feel it through the stability of those designs. They are very stable aircraft. I think most of these games model their trim response based on these two GA aircraft designs.

A more neutrally stable aircraft stick column has much better feel. Both systems on each aircraft give instant response; one is just easier to over or under trim because you can't feel it as well through the controls. That is why you have to adjust the trim and watch the aircraft in the spam cans.

All the best,

Crumpp

Xiolablu3
09-12-2009, 04:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> and it takes him about 10 secs to reach full trim, and he wasnt even flying the plane, he was stationary.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was the flaps, not the trim....

Crumpp </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Maybe you are right? I thought it was trim...

Manu-6S
09-12-2009, 04:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> and it takes him about 10 secs to reach full trim, and he wasnt even flying the plane, he was stationary.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was the flaps, not the trim....

Crumpp </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Maybe you are right? I thought it was trim... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Flaps...

And BTW I read yesterday that also Grislawski stated that he was used to set the flaps on landing position during his fights flying a G2 against I16 and Yak1.

Too many claims... maybe the pilot of an original 109 needed only few turns on the wheel to drop the flaps... maybe the 109 on the video was not on "combat" setting. :|

M_Gunz
09-12-2009, 04:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
We have all seen the video of the 109 pilot using the trim wheel, and it takes him about 10 secs to reach full trim, and he wasnt even flying the plane, he was stationary. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't see it, you wouldn't have a link or title would you?
If it's Paul Day in the 109-G, he went from wherever it was to full nose up in about 4 seconds....
link to the one with Paul Day turning the elevator trim wheel. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgvfklVzYZo)

Xiolablu3
09-13-2009, 08:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
We have all seen the video of the 109 pilot using the trim wheel, and it takes him about 10 secs to reach full trim, and he wasnt even flying the plane, he was stationary. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't see it, you wouldn't have a link or title would you?
If it's Paul Day in the 109-G, he went from wherever it was to full nose up in about 4 seconds....
link to the one with Paul Day turning the elevator trim wheel. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgvfklVzYZo) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was wrong gunz, it was flaps not elevator trim.

Kettenhunde
09-13-2009, 08:14 AM
I love how that film is being toted around the internet by gamers who take it completely out of the context it was made trying to turn it into something detrimental to the airplane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...ture=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcMjhihuuX8&feature=player_embedded)

It's funny to read all the "informed speculation" that goes on. God bless gamers....

Xiolablu3
09-13-2009, 11:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
I love how that film is being toted around the internet by gamers who take it completely out of the context it was made trying to turn it into something detrimental to the airplane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...ture=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcMjhihuuX8&feature=player_embedded)

It's funny to read all the "informed speculation" that goes on. God bless gamers.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


All bow down to the real pilot... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif


'I know, I will frequent a gaming website and insult gamers...'.


Believe it or not, all WW2 aircraft were NOT the same. Some had benefits over others, some were better climbers, some better divers, some better turners, some better rollers. The Bf109, just like any other plane had strengths and weaknesses. Even so, you have totally the wrong idea. People are talking about how the real trim wheel in a 109 compares with the games time to trim. Nothing 'detrimental. Only in your mind.

stalkervision
09-13-2009, 12:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
I love how that film is being toted around the internet by gamers who take it completely out of the context it was made trying to turn it into something detrimental to the airplane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...ture=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcMjhihuuX8&feature=player_embedded)

It's funny to read all the "informed speculation" that goes on. God bless gamers.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I have my 109 e specially equipped with a suicide knob flap spinner.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/thehotrodgirl_2064_11817566

Ya anyone want a piece of me! Come right on! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

ya spit pilots all you can do is blow your flaps down for landing. I can use mine any time i feel like it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Kettenhunde
09-13-2009, 08:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> have my 109 e specially equipped with a suicide knob flap spinner.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's funny!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Xiolablu3... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

M_Gunz
09-13-2009, 11:07 PM
There had been attempted revisionism from more than one part of that video. And from loads of others too. And from stories
and even from "this chart plus that technical detail means this other model could, dada-dada blah blah blah" as well.

I have that video. It let me see things I otherwise would not have. Which is more "wrong", that or an average Wings episode?

Kettenhunde
09-14-2009, 04:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">There had been attempted revisionism from more than one part of that video. And from loads of others too. And from stories
and even from "this chart plus that technical detail means this other model could, dada-dada blah blah blah" as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


That is my point. The trait of taking a small piece of information out of context and making large leaps of uninformed speculation based upon it.

M_Gunz
09-14-2009, 06:33 AM
energy-retention....

Kettenhunde
09-14-2009, 06:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">energy-retention.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


LOL!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif