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View Full Version : New found information about Carrier capable Messerschmitts!



x__CRASH__x
11-11-2004, 12:28 AM
My Grandmother recently gave me a box of things that my Grandfather had stored in their attic. In the box was some very cool WWII memorabilia, but the best thing... Documents my Grandfather uncovered about a carrier capable 'Gustav' bf-109! Let me give you the summary:

In 1943, the Japanese were looking for an addition to the IJN. In December 1943, a German engineer visited Japan to look at their prototype program, and suggested that using the exsisting G versions of the 109 would save the Japanese untold R&D resources. So the Japanese contracted 150 bf-109T(I's) (The I was for Imperial). In March 1944, Messerschmitt began modifying 100 bg-109G10's for shipment to Japan, with 50 more to be produced in June. The first 10 were modified and sent to Japan for testing and evaluation before the program would continue. The IJN flew 5 of them out to a carrier... the report did not specify which... for "Sea Trials" #4 was doing some sort of extended navigation work and was jumped by a Hellcat. The pilot engaged the Hellcat and was successful against him. This is proof that OKL aircraft fought in the PTO, if even only once. The pilot claimed the firepower was unrivaled by the Japanese inventory. The IJN expressed extreme pleasure with the 109, however, the cockpits were deemed too large for the average Japanese pilot. The distance to control surfaces caused the death of 2 test pilots. One unsuccessfully ditched south of Hamamatsu, and the second crashed into the round-down on the back of the landing area, destroying the aircraft. Messerschmitt was unwilling to modify the cockpits, which would require extensive work, so the order was cancelled, and the program was scrapped.

An expedition to locate the ditched aircraft is currently seeking funding.

Perhaps this proof will be enough to provide the enthusiasts of IL2 FB+AEP+PF to finally get a bf-109G10 that is carrier capable. Just because the little Japanese dudes couldn't fly them, doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

actionhank1786
11-11-2004, 12:58 AM
I'd prefer actual Pacific Fighters and bombers, but once that's all said and done.
Bring on the Stuka and Bf-109 sea variants http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
And the Graf Zepplin while we're at it.
And while the Japanese dudes may not have been able to fly it, i'm sure that had the German navy gotten their carrier, the German dudes would have loved it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The_Ant
11-11-2004, 01:02 AM
If they were to enter the sim that would be cool,but i think many people would whine,and say thats not historical etc.. like the Flyingwing and the bg109z.
But Maddox game could make the Bf109T2,this was a bf109 E model intended for the german aircraft carrier,They were produced in around 30-40 ex.But since the project was cancelled,the planes were remodified,and sent to Norway 1940-1941 and used to 1944 when they were replaced.The first B17 kill in WW2 by the germans were scored in Norway by an Bf109T2.

Korolov
11-11-2004, 01:32 AM
**** Crash, will you stop with the trolling thing? Other trolls are trying to work.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

VVS-Manuc
11-11-2004, 02:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by x__CRASH__x:
My Grandmother recently gave me a box of things that my Grandfather had stored in their attic. In the box was some very cool WWII memorabilia, but the best thing... Documents my Grandfather uncovered about a carrier capable 'Gustav' bf-109! Let me give you the summary:

In 1943, the Japanese were looking for an addition to the IJN. In December 1943, a German engineer visited Japan to look at their prototype program, and suggested that using the exsisting G versions of the 109 would save the Japanese untold R&D resources. So the Japanese contracted 150 bf-109T(I's) (The I was for Imperial). In March 1944, Messerschmitt began modifying 100 bg-109G10's for shipment to Japan, with 50 more to be produced in June. The first 10 were modified and sent to Japan for testing and evaluation before the program would continue. The IJN flew 5 of them out a carrier... the report did not specify which... for "Sea Trials" The IJN claimed they were an instant success, however, the cockpits were deemed too large for the average Japanese pilot. This caused the death of 2 test pilots. One unsuccessfully ditched south of Hamamatsu, and the second crashed into the round down on the back of the landing area, destroying the aircraft. Messerschmitt was unwilling to modify the cockpits, which would require extensive work, so the order was cancelled, and the program was scrapped.

An expedition to locate the ditched aircraft is currently seeking funding.

Perhaps this proof will be enough to provide the enthusiasts of IL2 FB+AEP+PF to finally get a bf-109G10 that is carrier capable. Just because the little Japanese dudes couldn't fly them, doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bf 109 G-10 as carrier aircraft. Sure...and the world is a flat disc http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

fiesetrix
11-11-2004, 02:49 AM
Bf109 Cockpit too large for Japanese Pilots ... - OMG - LOL - maybe they should have delivered a seat cushion with each 109 ... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
"distance to control surfaces caused the death of 2 test pilots" - extra thick soles for the pilot's boots should have solved that one too ... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

SeaFireLIV
11-11-2004, 02:57 AM
Some of you guys need to QUESTION what some people write without any proof to show! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif
This reminds of the c r a p x__CRASH__x posted about Americans flying captured 109Zs over Berlin against Germans.

Don`t believe everything you see him type.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

x__CRASH__x
11-11-2004, 04:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
...This reminds of the c r a p x__CRASH__x posted about Americans flying captured 109Zs over Berlin against Germans... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


LOL! That was an underappreciated piece of aviation history!

Abbuzze
11-11-2004, 04:48 AM
no need for hooks...


http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/zip/Carrier_landing.zip

Edit - sorry right click with mouse > save as....

x__CRASH__x
11-11-2004, 05:24 AM
Is that link working correctly?

Abbuzze
11-11-2004, 05:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by x__CRASH__x:
Is that link working correctly? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry my fault, it should work now if you the mouse like I discribed abouve.

wuggle85
11-11-2004, 05:49 AM
i personlly would love to see navilised bf109/ju87 and the carrier graf zepplin, but it appers to me that the whinners talk like their being forced to fly the go229/109z, for god sake stop whinning.
as ive said before and i'll say it again if theres a plane you dont think is historiclly accruate, dont fly it

firehttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gifstarter

ElAurens
11-11-2004, 05:53 AM
http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/ROFLMAO.gif

Crash, now be a good little boy and put down your storybook and toddle off to bed...

BSS_Goat
11-11-2004, 06:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by x__CRASH__x:
LOL! That was an underappreciated piece of aviation history! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

x__CRASH__x <-------- A true historian...be sure.

Bearcat99
11-11-2004, 06:39 AM
The gear on the 109s was shaky on land.... I can see it now coming down on a carrier.

gombal40
11-11-2004, 08:03 AM
well the plans were there =, they would have made it work

Saburo_0
11-11-2004, 08:56 AM
Actually this 109g offered several advantages for the novice IJN pilots coming out of flight schools at the time. Most importantly it gretly reduces the number of noobs who got lost at sea as the 109 barely had the range to get out of sight of the carriers. So very few pilots got lost. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Chuck_Older
11-11-2004, 10:07 AM
Wow, what a coincidence! My Gramma gave me a box of stuff from her safe deposit box. Right next to a million dollars was proof that Crash's Grandpop was a fibber. Honest!

x__CRASH__x
11-11-2004, 12:56 PM
Bearcat, that is a very keen observation, but wrong. Very stout gear on the 109 G! You just have to be smart! Give me a tailhook and I will show you!

Motorsound
11-11-2004, 01:05 PM
Hi people!

Forthose of you, which are interested in:
www.vdmedien.de (http://www.vdmedien.de)

Here you can find a book (in german) "Messerschmitt Bf109T - die J├┬Ąger der Graf Zeppelin";
translated: "Messerschmitt Bf109T- the hunter (aero: fighter) of the graf zeppelin", 324pages, 42,80Euro

The 109T was developed for the "Graf Zeppelin", but the carrier wasn't finisched.
So the 109T came to Norway and 1943 to Helgoland (to fight against U.S.- and R.A.F.-bombers).
In the book are also Comments of U.S. and R.A.F.-pilots.

x__CRASH__x
11-11-2004, 09:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
Wow, what a coincidence! My Gramma gave me a box of stuff from her safe deposit box. Right next to a million dollars was proof that Crash's Grandpop was a fibber. Honest! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Fibber?? Never! I swear this is all the truth to the best of my recollection!


I stake Korolov's life on it!

fermi2004
11-12-2004, 04:23 PM
There's several things wrong with this very tall tale:

1. How were the aircraft transported to Japan? By 1943, the only way would've been via U-Boat (there were larger boats capable of carrying disassembled aircraft, but only one or two per trip).

2. Even if you got the aircraft there, the need for spare parts would've been great. Unless the Japanese could engineer their own parts, 100 planes wouldn't have lasted very long due to maintanance problems alone.

3. The Japanese did not need the help of Germany's aircraft industry. They had very capable aircraft and were even working on jet prototypes at the end of the war. What they really needed by 1943 were trained pilots.

Zyzbot
11-12-2004, 07:44 PM
you caught another one...hook, line and sinker!

WTE_Mauler
11-13-2004, 01:39 AM
S! Gents,

I don't know the intentions of the original post but to throw a spanner in the works so to speak I have located an interesting tiddbit for you all to ponder. It is unsubstantiated to my limited knowledge but is on an official report.

So with out further adoo here it is, look at the entry under LAE, this occured around mid 1942 New Guinea region!!

Maybe Crash is correct... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

http://server2.uploadit.org/files/WTEMauler-ShowImage82.jpg

WTE_Mauler.
wte-anga.com

Feathered_IV
11-13-2004, 03:25 AM
Mmmm....Probably a Hein.

Happened a lot apparently. Here in Australia, people were so Eurocentric. When Darwin was bombed, many claimed to have seen Bf109s with German markings escorting the Japanese bombers.

empfan1
11-13-2004, 08:54 AM
Read this link http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
http://www.vectorsite.net/avhien.html

x__CRASH__x
11-14-2004, 01:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fermi2004:
1. How were the aircraft transported to Japan? By 1943, the only way would've been via U-Boat (there were larger boats capable of carrying disassembled aircraft, but only one or two per trip). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Several me-363 transport aircraft few the first 10. The rest were going to be delivered by train once Russia was conqured.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>2. Even if you got the aircraft there, the need for spare parts would've been great. Unless the Japanese could engineer their own parts, 100 planes wouldn't have lasted very long due to maintanance problems alone. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
A plan for indigenously produced spare parts was there, as well as manufacturing 109's in Japanses factories. Once the Japanese had control of Siberia's naturnal resources, their industry could increase production

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>3. The Japanese did not need the help of Germany's aircraft industry. They had very capable aircraft and were even working on jet prototypes at the end of the war. What they really needed by 1943 were trained pilots. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Number three is based merely on your conjecture. Your opinion was that they had capable aircraft. But the military leaders of the Imperial Japanese Army/Navy did not agree with you. I'm basing my post on facts. Please try to do the same and leave your personal opinions at the door. Thank you.

x__CRASH__x
11-14-2004, 01:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WTE_Mauler:
S! Gents,

I don't know the intentions of the original post but to throw a spanner in the works so to speak I have located an interesting tiddbit for you all to ponder. It is unsubstantiated to my limited knowledge but is on an official report.

So with out further adoo here it is, look at the entry under LAE, this occured around mid 1942 New Guinea region!!

Maybe Crash is correct... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

http://server2.uploadit.org/files/WTEMauler-ShowImage82.jpg

WTE_Mauler.
wte-anga.com <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excellent source! See! My Grandfathers documents were correct! The pilots were absolutely sure!! Who are any of us to argue with trained professional airmen who have to stake their lives on their observations?

Hein? pfffffft. Doesn't even look close to a 109.

LEXX_Luthor
11-14-2004, 06:13 PM
SeaFire:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>This reminds of the crapp x__CRASH__x posted about Americans flying captured 109Zs over Berlin against Germans. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That was the first thing I thought--"attic" was the clue, the proof was Fp~109 cockpit too big. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif