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View Full Version : Any 190 aces 'in der haus'?



jamesblonde1979
02-10-2009, 05:22 AM
I have been playing around with Boelcke's Channel front campaign and having a blast flying the 109F-4 and generally flying rings around the RAF. Amazingly I have survived to the next period of the campaign, 1942, and my Staffel has been re-equipped with the Fw-190 A4.

As far as I am concerned the 190 flies like a wet dish rag compared to the 109. But I know that it is me failing to get the most out of her so I was wondering if anybody here could give me a few pointers?

I've noticed that the 190 seems to only be good going downhill, it climbs like a one legged chimney sweep up a broken ladder. (What are the best climb settings???) This is making it very hard because in this campaign I am up against Spitfire Vb's and IX's, and they usually have the altitude advantage. (I can't do much about this until I get promoted high enough to lead a flight) So what is a good way of turning the tables on a Spitfire in the 190 A4?

I haven't been waxed by one yet but only because I've been lucky. The 190 seems to bleed 'E' like it's going out of fashion and if I am less rough in my evasions then I am going to get nailed.

So what would you do if you were getting bounced at low level (8-15,000ft)in this kite?

I usually run away and by the time I have caught up to the enemy and have altitude they are off the map. (I call it off if they reach the edge of the map whilst fleeing).

Thanks for reading this.

JB

jamesblonde1979
02-10-2009, 05:22 AM
I have been playing around with Boelcke's Channel front campaign and having a blast flying the 109F-4 and generally flying rings around the RAF. Amazingly I have survived to the next period of the campaign, 1942, and my Staffel has been re-equipped with the Fw-190 A4.

As far as I am concerned the 190 flies like a wet dish rag compared to the 109. But I know that it is me failing to get the most out of her so I was wondering if anybody here could give me a few pointers?

I've noticed that the 190 seems to only be good going downhill, it climbs like a one legged chimney sweep up a broken ladder. (What are the best climb settings???) This is making it very hard because in this campaign I am up against Spitfire Vb's and IX's, and they usually have the altitude advantage. (I can't do much about this until I get promoted high enough to lead a flight) So what is a good way of turning the tables on a Spitfire in the 190 A4?

I haven't been waxed by one yet but only because I've been lucky. The 190 seems to bleed 'E' like it's going out of fashion and if I am less rough in my evasions then I am going to get nailed.

So what would you do if you were getting bounced at low level (8-15,000ft)in this kite?

I usually run away and by the time I have caught up to the enemy and have altitude they are off the map. (I call it off if they reach the edge of the map whilst fleeing).

Thanks for reading this.

JB

X32Wright
02-10-2009, 05:50 AM
You must be flying a different game that I am http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The FW (Antons and Dora) climbs rather well at 330kph! You do have to watch out your angle climb, it is not a 109 and defnitely NOT a Spitfire. The FW needs alot of SPEED to climb, if you dont have speed of at least 280-330kph she wont climb at all!

It looks like you need on training on 'energy management' tactics. You need to let the plane guide you where it wants to go and specially use the 'roll rate' for turning instead of the stick pull back (pitch up). This way you can easily convert your 'speed into rolls' for fast turning. One thing with FW's is to use more of the rudder and aileron to fly HER and only correct with the stick! Yes! you read that right! You fly her with an enormous amount of speed and to change direction you use elevator trim,rudder and ailerons only, minimal PITCH control and only then for correction of your pathway.

If you are getting bounced then DIVE fast and extend away BUT climb again and much higher then your enemy, don't stick around specially if you are outnumbered! The FW is a plane that can engage and disengage at WILL!

Use VERTICAL rolling scissors which Spits cannot handle at all! SPit slows down then turning so using your roll rate is a big advantage in this fight specially if you are going up and down (VERTICAL FIGHT) at high speed.

jamesblonde1979
02-10-2009, 06:14 AM
Thanks Wright, so keep my speed above, say 350 kph, and use ailerons and rudder to change direction.

I was using too much speed and trying to climb when too slow.

Time for another crack at it then!

X32Wright
02-10-2009, 06:57 AM
Yes! If you ever slow down in the FW, you wil die because you have limited options UNLESS you have alot of alt where in you can just dive away to >670kph(Antons)-720kph(Late Antons)-760kp(Dora) and one you have enough speed and lost your enemies, you climb again! Do a shallow climb up and turn (turn climb) maintaining your speed at 330kph on the climb.

The reason is that the FW needs to have at least 330kph ALL THE TIME so it can fight and engage at all. Anything less and you become vulnerable to Spits and Mustangs and Tempests.

So just have SPEED and ALT at all times with FW and you will dominate.

K_Freddie
02-10-2009, 08:33 AM
You can turn with the best of them.. You just have to turn 'differently' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Fast FW version (4MB) (http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Movies/FWHighWay.avi)
Slomo FW of above (10MB) (http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Movies/FW190Dancer.avi)
slomo timing (4.5MB) (http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Movies/FlipIt.avi)

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

jamesblonde1979
02-10-2009, 09:04 AM
Okay, so here's my progress so far.

I got back into the campaign and it was a couple of missions before I got bounced again.

First off I chased some Hurricanes out to sea. Didn't catch them but after takeoff I let the speed build to 220 mph and went into a gentle 5 degree climb at military power I easily overhauled my AI leader with about 50 ft of altitude on him. I was pretty impressed by this as usually catching an AI leader takes ages.

It was a couple more trips before I got bounced by Spitfires again but finally it happened, our eight Fw-190's got jumped on by 14 Spitfire Vb's. I got KIA because I tried to maintain my climb and face the attack. (Old habits from the 109)

So I hit refly and this time put the stick forward. Surely enough I was singled out by no less than six Spitfires but I used Wright's advice and limited my evasions to aileron rolls and weaving with the rudder. A little bit of pitch and then off again before I lose speed.

So I wondered what to do next, my Staffel were dealing with the other eight Spits and I had six all to myself. I just kept my nose on the horizon at military power and flew in a wide circle and looked for help. Thankfully each time I encountered some of my Staffel mates they bounced one or two of these Spits off of my tail and this went on until there were only two Spits left on my six. Two on one seemed fair odds to me so I straightened out and began porposing, letting the nose down until my speed was up to 280-300mph an then climbing until it got back to 220mph.

This worked quite well and eventually I was able to put 2km between myself and these two Spits, I found another 190 to lead them past and when he dove I made a nice immelman and latched onto the unengaged Spitfire.

+1 for me.

What a thrill, I can't believe I went from 6 on my 6 to getting away +1 and without a scratch. I'm starting to like this 190 business!


So thanks guys, (I watched that vid Freddie, very helpful, thanks!) I'll keep at it!

X32Wright
02-10-2009, 09:52 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The FW was called 'The Butcher Bird' for nothing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif So as you can see you DO have to fly the planes on the game differently http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

NOw go try to change all ur INPUT to all 100 and see how REALISTIC really the FW and 109 were http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Most aces in the game do use this INPUT setting and no more stalling our and such for me either in the FW or 109 or Mustang for that matter http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Congrats BTW on a job well done http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ba5tard5word
02-10-2009, 12:36 PM
Basically I find it to be kinda like a hot rod....it has a nice high top speed but is slow to accelerate and loses speed quickly when making even minimal turns. It's kinda like the P-38 or Tempest...you can't use it to turn fight like you can with a 109 or Spitfire.

It's armament is outstanding and can kill any fighter with a quick accurate burst of its default guns--you don't need to line up and hit the enemy repeated times or hope for a lucky one-hit kill like you do with the 109 or others.

Like the people above said, fly straight and keep your speed up, and just keep buzzing the enemy without getting caught in a turn battle with them because you'll drop to 200 kph quickly and be an easy target. Deflection shots are key and require practice because of the 190's limited pilot visibility.

Fortunately for you the AI for the 190 seems to be modeled so it is very aggressive...at least if it is on your side...expect your wingmen to get a lot of kills and maybe steal your kills.

But if you are flying against AI 190's, I find that they are kind of lazy and easy to deal with, while AI enemy 109's are ruthless.

Ba5tard5word
02-10-2009, 12:37 PM
Also where is this campaign, is it on M4T? I need to try other peoples' campaigns more.

crucislancer
02-10-2009, 02:50 PM
Yup, on M4T:

Channelfront v2.02 (http://www.mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&file=details&id=3297)

It's also in the Enjoyr patch, but you need to have Battle over Europe in order to use it.

I don't have much to add to the Fw190 discussion, as I'm not a pro at flying it, though I have been flying it much more lately. I'm keeping an eye on this thread for more tips. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ba5tard5word
02-10-2009, 09:45 PM
hmm...what is BOE?

jamesblonde1979
02-11-2009, 12:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
hmm...what is BOE? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Battle over Europe. It makes a lot more dynamic campaigns for the Western Front. It's a Fantastic addition to any collection IMO. I have the Channelfront and Enjoyr patch which has heaps of campaigns, Pacific, West and East fronts, it is great to go to the new carreer menu and actually have choices!

Reguarding your comments on the friendly AI flying 190's, yes, they certainly are agressive which is a good thing. I was reading more about the 190 and apparently it was designed to be a team fighter so the AI should be agressive! Hopefully I have interpereted the tactics correctly.
I am flying this campaign with CampaignDifficulty=Hard in the config file and I certainly need all the help I can get so the agressive AI is quite welcome.

Zeus-cat
02-11-2009, 05:17 AM
I believe it is das haus, not der haus. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

jamesblonde1979
02-11-2009, 06:32 AM
Enschuldigung bitte, meine Deutsch ist nicht sehr gut.

tim.yost
02-11-2009, 09:12 AM
JamesBlond.. thanks for posting back your findings that has helped me solidify performance behaviors I've now seen as well.

I'm a noob so this is all news to me, but exciting learning! I've been switching between the 190 vs the 109 every night for a couple of weeks. I see the same in the 190. Case in point...

Went up against an AI Lagg3 1v1 the other night. After barely managing to wound him once, and stay out of his sights in a turning battle by using as many rolls as I could. After exhausting all my ammo at him (bad shooting mind you on my part!). I decided, now I'm empty... time to escape. After reading up on the 190's climb rate vs the other more turning-based fighers I decided to put it to the test. I did a shallow turn, full throttle, and put it into a gradual climb (directly into the sun as added protection). The LAGG started after me, and started the climb just under 1k on my tail. Trying to get closer to get a shot. Well, that's all the closer it ever got. I kept this shallow climb up, and kept gaining away until I had enough separation to escape and land safely. Smiles all around.

I also notice, that before some of these insights on the 190, that I've been flying it all wrong, with too much turning as well. Getting bogged down, too slow, aka 'dead meat'. When I do this, generally I hear something like a sound that sounds like air rushing? I now assume that that's the plane skidding out of turn control in the air, and bleeding off speed?

Conversely no matter how roughly I turn the 109, I can't seem to make it skid.

Thanks for the post, its helped me solidify several thoughts I've been having from just my own experimentation.

Woke_Up_Dead
02-11-2009, 03:36 PM
So what's the best counter-tactic for a shallow-climbing 190? What would you do if you were in that LaGG in tim.yost's example, but assuming that the 190 still had ammo? Climb at best climb-speed while falling behind but getting altitude on him? Level flight below him, try to get him to dive down into a turning fight?

crucislancer
02-11-2009, 04:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Woke_Up_Dead:
So what's the best counter-tactic for a shallow-climbing 190? What would you do if you were in that LaGG in tim.yost's example, but assuming that the 190 still had ammo? Climb at best climb-speed while falling behind but getting altitude on him? Level flight below him, try to get him to dive down into a turning fight? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I was in a LaGG-3, and a 190 decided to climb away, I would count my lucky stars and run! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Seriously, the the LaGG-3 is no match for the Fw-190, except in turn radius. Unless you are fighting a rookie, no 190 pilot is going to turn with you. If the 190 starts to climb, and you know you can't match or beat the climb, then best to disengage asap. Of course, once he realizes that you are on the run, he could quite easily catch up in a dive, in which case you will have to defend yourself at some point. The AI would most certainly do this, a human opponent might let you go and move on to another target.

Woke_Up_Dead
02-11-2009, 04:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crucislancer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Woke_Up_Dead:
So what's the best counter-tactic for a shallow-climbing 190? What would you do if you were in that LaGG in tim.yost's example, but assuming that the 190 still had ammo? Climb at best climb-speed while falling behind but getting altitude on him? Level flight below him, try to get him to dive down into a turning fight? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I was in a LaGG-3, and a 190 decided to climb away, I would count my lucky stars and run! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Seriously, the the LaGG-3 is no match for the Fw-190, except in turn radius. Unless you are fighting a rookie, no 190 pilot is going to turn with you. If the 190 starts to climb, and you know you can't match or beat the climb, then best to disengage asap. Of course, once he realizes that you are on the run, he could quite easily catch up in a dive, in which case you will have to defend yourself at some point. The AI would most certainly do this, a human opponent might let you go and move on to another target. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fair enough, so let's suppose instead that it's something a bit better than a LaGG but still unable to catch a 190 in a shallow climb, maybe a Yak, or a La5.

crucislancer
02-11-2009, 04:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Woke_Up_Dead:
Fair enough, so let's suppose instead that it's something a bit better than a LaGG but still unable to catch a 190 in a shallow climb, maybe a Yak, or a La5. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I would let him climb. Itís advisable not to go above 2000 meters in most VVS planes. Stay level, keep the speed up, and let him climb, but donít let him out of your sight. If he comes down again to play, use the superior turn radius of the Yak and La to defeat his shot, and heíll just have to extend, climb, and try again. You might be able to get a shot in as well, but that depends on the skill level of the 190 pilot.

A couple of months ago I was able to stay alive for a while after getting jumped by a pair of Doras while flying the La-5FN, online. I donít recall how long it was, perhaps 2-3 minutes, but I eventually got shot down when it became 2 pairs of Doras and they ganged up on me. The point is, I stayed below 2000 meters, did my best to keep my speed up, and used my superior turn against their shots.

Ba5tard5word
02-11-2009, 04:45 PM
The last series (in Il-2) of the LaGG-3 (the 55? can't remember) is pretty good, maybe a bit slower than the 190 but it has a good top speed and good turning. Word to the wise though, LaGG-3 AI is very tricky and difficult sometimes.

La-5 is even faster and should be able to keep up with the 190 at least at low levels, my only complaint is its armament. La-5 AI on the other hand can be really lazy.

Xiolablu3
02-11-2009, 04:47 PM
Fw190A4 vs Spitfire IX is very hard, even for a veteran.


Fw190A4 vs SPitfire Vb should be quite easy if you use energy tactics.

I would want a Fw190A6 at least to feel comfortable vs a Spitfire IX.

funkster319
02-11-2009, 05:46 PM
K Freddie - I want those moves.

I think it's time to get me a teacher - any offers. I am a failry reasonable pilot looking to become 1st rate. Willing to be a wingman for anyone willing to showme a few tricks /skills http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

K_Freddie
02-12-2009, 06:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by funkster319:
K Freddie - I want those moves.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
My stick has gone to the 'Great Stick Gathering' in the sky... so I'm out of action for a while.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

X32Wright
02-12-2009, 06:44 AM
The moves on that video that K_Freddie showed is mostly using rudder and aileron moves with some stick inputs. The quick roll rate of the FW allows u to avoid fire quickly and change directions.

This is maximizing the roll rate of the FW specially effective if ur enemy is closing in and you want to avoid their fire and escape. Remember that while rolling you speed should be kept up and you should not lose much or go below 330kph.

I however would not recommend flying the Antons that low! Look me up funkser319 and I will help you. I am normally on HL at nights EST specially on weekends with our squad.

Xiolablu3
02-12-2009, 09:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:
You can turn with the best of them.. You just have to turn 'differently' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Fast FW version (4MB) (http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Movies/FWHighWay.avi)
Slomo FW of above (10MB) (http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Movies/FW190Dancer.avi)
slomo timing (4.5MB) (http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Movies/FlipIt.avi)

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem here is that I think the Fw190 would be dead at about 10 secs into the last film. The Yak has a perfect gun solution IMO.

If I were the yak I would have been firing at 2 secs into the last film.

K_Freddie
02-12-2009, 10:05 AM
The 1st (and 2nd) ar online vids... the last is offline.
Essentially it's the same idea whether you're high or low - The one who makes the most mistakes loses (as in RL).

-------
The tactics to remember:
Being low means your foe, to fight you, has to be low too. When there's a lot of planes about, if he dives onto you, he has to worry about his six.
If he's stays higher, he might have a difficult time seeing you against the ground.
So all in all 'Low' is not that bad at all, and in an FW with excellent all round view.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

------
The last video is just a display how a simple roll can turn defensive into offensive. OK the AI is stupid, and flies into the ground, but this does not negate the FW's ability to turn the tables very quickly, and with a 'broadside' of cannons at your disposal to install great stress into your apponent.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

TS_Sancho
02-12-2009, 04:51 PM
I fly the FW's quite a bit in Spits vs. 109's, Warclouds, fullswitch etc. Though not an Experten, I get my share of kills and dont mind helping a bit.
I absolutley guarantee the examples K_Freddie posted are in the what not to do category for a good fw pilot.If you let a P39 get stuck on your 6 in a co-energy situation like the one shown the guy in the P39 is going to punch your ticket almost as quickly the guy in the Yak3.
Low and slow on the deck is the last place you want to be in any FW. The strength of the FW190 is its ability to change direction very quickly at high speed. The FW190 has awesome elevator authority as well as roll rate and its the combination of the two that make it so well suited as an air superiority platform. The FW190 wont come anywhere near the sustained turn rate of a spit, but its instantaneous turn ability is far superior as long as you stay faster than 400 kph.
This is a better example of how to kill in a FW190.This guy is pretty good although I'm a little unsure of the bit at the end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...qAqo&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpBMsB0qAqo&feature=related)
Note with this pilot its all high speed, high deflection slashing attacks.Part of the trick to success with FW190 is try to enter the fight only if you have more energy than the other guy.Pick your target,correct,shoot then extend.If you start to lose your advantage break off the fight and regain it.The 190 is fast enough to dictate when it chooses to fight and when it chooses to run against most aircraft. Try to make it a rule to never turn more than 90 degrees, the other guy wants you to do that so you burn your energy then you end up slow and defensive with a P39 or Yak3 on your tail.
The guy doin the Angels and Airspeed stuff has got a PDF with some good info in it
http://www.angelsandairspeed.c...wtopic.php?f=1&t=154 (http://www.angelsandairspeed.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=154)
This is from another forum but has some good stuff as well.
http://www.acompletewasteofspa...le=viewtopic&t=13743 (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=13743)
The FW190 takes discipline and a lot of practice.Hope this helps.

X32Wright
02-13-2009, 11:29 AM
Yeah http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I wont even take an Anton below 1.5K meters because of the danger of being bounced by spits. The optimum alt for an FW is between 3.7k and 5.6K meters.

Up there the threats becomes less specially nice since u can drag your enemy higher and deal with them higher since you can easily extend and outclimb them.

HayateAce
02-13-2009, 11:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:

If I were the yak I would have been firing at 2 secs into the last film. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Yak pilot had to be ai or complete nooberifick. The 190 is meat on the table at this point.

K_Freddie
02-13-2009, 11:53 AM
I've posted this before, but now it look as if it's in need of a repeat.

The ntrk for that first movie...
Online ntrk - Version 4.08 (1.7MB) (http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Movies/SomeHLServer.zip) For jamesblonde1979 only, as some others 'know it all' http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

HayateAce
02-13-2009, 11:58 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

K_Freddie
02-13-2009, 01:45 PM
jamesblonde1979:

Another controversial FW clip (53MB) (http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Movies/Scissors.avi) made so you can see what's happening with all the controls.

Keep tabs on the airspeed indicator... and not to worry about the altimeter http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

jamesblonde1979
02-15-2009, 02:11 PM
Thanks for the continued input guys, I am off to buy a new stick today so I will get in some Offline practise and think about a bit of online time in the near future.

I fly under 'MrJim' so if you see me around say hi as you sail past my wreckage. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MD_Titus
02-16-2009, 12:16 PM
if it hasn't been mentioned, learn to use the maual prop pitch on the 190's, particularly in combat or in the step climb. get your height, then cruise at 350+, at lower power settings and on auto pp to cool the engine. all whilst floating above everyone else and looking for some hapless target.

jamesblonde1979
02-16-2009, 01:28 PM
@Titus

Indeed, you must have been reading my mind. I have been swotting up everything on this forum about mixture and prop pitch in order to make the switch to full switch settings.

No bloody sticks at the local shops!!! Grrr, I might have to wait a while now until I can get one.

MD_Titus
02-18-2009, 10:29 AM
mission for today has a very useful section on the 190 here - http://mission4today.com/index...nowledge_Base&cat=48 (http://mission4today.com/index.php?name=Knowledge_Base&cat=48)