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WB_Outlaw
10-25-2006, 03:15 PM
Between the whining about "air quake", the lack of true historical action (ie aircraft match-ups, altitudes, mission goals), and the static AI ground/ship units in the dedicated server, I can't figure out why the interest in dedicated co-op servers is so low?

To me, they offer the best of both worlds with moving convoys/tanks/ships (finally usable aircraft carriers online), real mission goals, better aircraft match-ups/numbers, and more historically accurate battles. Plus, only one life per mission.

So, to all those looking for more historically accurate online play, what's keeping you away?

--Outlaw.

WB_Outlaw
10-25-2006, 03:15 PM
Between the whining about "air quake", the lack of true historical action (ie aircraft match-ups, altitudes, mission goals), and the static AI ground/ship units in the dedicated server, I can't figure out why the interest in dedicated co-op servers is so low?

To me, they offer the best of both worlds with moving convoys/tanks/ships (finally usable aircraft carriers online), real mission goals, better aircraft match-ups/numbers, and more historically accurate battles. Plus, only one life per mission.

So, to all those looking for more historically accurate online play, what's keeping you away?

--Outlaw.

F6_Ace
10-26-2006, 03:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">we run a 4.05m version number (100mbit link, 1 gig ram dedicated server) and people can join missions in progress unlike normal coops, also, missions are created to be relatively short, that means there is less than 10 mins flying time to action and most missions end under 30 minutes which is also "time - limit" until next mission start

server is full real minus type icons (no color, only type of plane) at 1.4km and friendly names at 350m which works (imho as a server admin) better for team fighting and organized flying in teams Smile </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi cmirko,

I was in last night as Arch_Stanton - you might remember me being the one spiral climbing one of your teammates then trying to bnz him...for about 3 hours http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thanks for changing the scenario to a campaign, too, as I selfishly think 3 on 3 DF is not the best use for a co-op http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I was actually incredibly impressed by how the server ran and how it could be controlled - especially the voting system etc. I had no idea it was so far advanced as I thought it was only a 'rough' prototype.

Anyway, thanks to all for making/hosting the server - once it gets some momentum up, I'm sure it will be a big success.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004YL1M.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg

cmirko
10-26-2006, 03:52 AM
hi m8 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

the nick is hilarious http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (the in game one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) - you are one of those satisfied customers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif i can see http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

yeah, we all feel that campaigns are the main goal of this kind of server, but we were all regulars and doing some testing with our WiP DF generator (QMB style) which is a great tool for squad and tactic training http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

looking forward to flying with you again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

slipBall
10-26-2006, 04:35 AM
(quote)
As you can see from the 2nd and 3rd posts, people don't seem to know about it (in spite of rnzoli's ongoing 7+ page thread).

Also, the server is not well named. (drop the 102, just say CO-OP DEDICATED or something).

Even this thread title should probably be changed to: Why the lack of Interest in Dedicated Co-Op Servers? , else how would anyone know?

Marketing, my friend Outlaw, marketing.

IMO. I've enjoyed poking my head in on the 102 server, but it's not always up (seems very hit or miss as to when it is on).

* _54th_Speeder *


Also, my personal webspace dedicated to WW2 Combat Flight simming can be found at:
simace.com



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SithSpeeder:
Oh, one other thing. Put the Teamspeak info into the Session Information in HL as well as (if possible) in the brief of the mission itself (but usually by then it is too late). Make it easy and they will more likely come.

Comms make this soooooo much more fun.

* _54th_Speeder * </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif good idea....I was going to play the coop....but could not connect to ts....keep getting a error mess.....the 10060 part of address<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f394/SlipBall/orders.jpg

brajo_
10-26-2006, 06:00 AM
Ah... finally registered on the forum http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

To clarify thigs a bit about that DF generator.... Maybe some of you guys used a generator made by JG10r_Dutertre which would generate dogfight coops (up to 4v4) based on preset combination of planes. It was a comand line tool and I beleive it was written in Perl (hm... couldnt find the link for it). It was great to set up fast combat, and to practice teamwork and tactics. The main problem was that you had to generate in advance a lot of missions in order to cover all possible situations you wish to try out online. For example just for 109f4 vs Spit5 matchup you would have to have 4 separate missions (1v1 2v2 3v3 4v4) if you want to be able to host it for changing number of players, and reduce AI plane amount to minimum. So adding even more aircraft into combination would generally create a lot of missions on your hard drive http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Using the great features of rnzoli's DSC program, I wrote a very simple web tool that you can use to generate mission directly on the server, and regenerate it with different parameters at any time, on the fly.
Its nothing special, and like I said its main purpose is to train tactics and teamowork in our squad, and to test out different aircraft matchups.
The only reason it was maybe too often active on the server these days, is because we were testing it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Its not part of server's map rotation, so in order to load that mission you have to queue it manually using DSC MAP command. I wont even say which map is that, and I wont say where you can generate mission http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif , because there is a lot of good campaigns with lots of great missions worth playing. Just consider that dogfight generator/mission as a hidden bonus http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And finally, I have to say that this dedicated server coop controller program by rnzoli is probably the best thing that happened to this game recently. I gave up on FB and was ready to wait for BOB in retirement, but this thing brought me back online... damn you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

See you online http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TacticalYak3
10-26-2006, 08:58 AM
My belief is that there are a lot of IL-2 folks enjoying historically inspired COOPS and online campaigns. Yes, such folks really enjoy these sorts of experiences that we will call, what?, historic encounters. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Now here's my impression on the general IL-2 online crowd. While I certainly realize that there are some who enjoy teamwork, history and who have formed relationships with other flyers, for the most part folks want the thrill of the dogfight. The success of a mission is not primarily based on achieving the stated goal, covering your wingman (what's a wingman?), or adhering to a flight leader's directions (leader?). It's not re-telling that sortie where you saved your buddy from certain death, it?s that night you racked up the points!

For these reasons I do believe COOPS and online campaigns generally have found a better home among squads and alike.

Regards,
TS!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://ca.geocities.com/ohearnsmcmm@rogers.com/Banner.jpg

WB_Outlaw
10-26-2006, 09:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TacticalYak3:
Now here's my impression on the general IL-2 online crowd. While I certainly realize that there are some who enjoy teamwork, history and who have formed relationships with other flyers, for the most part folks want the thrill of the dogfight. The success of a mission is not primarily based on achieving the stated goal, covering your wingman (what's a wingman?), or adhering to a flight leader's directions (leader?). It's not re-telling that sortie where you saved your buddy from certain death, it?s that night you racked up the points! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will be the first to admit that co-ops are not everyone's bag o' tea, however, my question is NOT TO THE GENERAL CROWD. It's to those people that LIKE and WANT the kind of play that co-ops offer, yet continue to sit on dedicated "air quake" (their words, not mine) servers and do nothing but b!tch and moan about everything.

One of the things I'm trying to find out WHAT DO THOSE PEOPLE WANT! I also made the subject deliberately vague to see if any of those people even read any threads at all. At least one of my questions was answered! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif Of course, even my thread entitled, "Yet another dedicated co-op server", saw no real traffic. My request for load testers saw even less.

When I get back from lunch I'll probably start another thread with a 3k subject line just to be sure (kind of like taking off and nuking the site from orbit).

--Outlaw

SithSpeeder
10-26-2006, 09:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Now here's my impression on the general IL-2 online crowd. While I certainly realize that there are some who enjoy teamwork, history and who have formed relationships with other flyers, for the most part folks want the thrill of the dogfight. The success of a mission is not primarily based on achieving the stated goal, covering your wingman (what's a wingman?), or adhering to a flight leader's directions (leader?). It's not re-telling that sortie where you saved your buddy from certain death, it?s that night you racked up the points! </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Disagree. I believe that if more people had the capability or the knowledge of how much fun the game becomes when you do use teamwork, comms, protect your wingman, etc., that the online community would expand (and be better for it!). But I'm not a point wh*re (I'm waaay to bad a shot for that).

I tried the HL server "Co-Op Dedicated" last night. This did NOT work well. The mission lacked a brief. And after hitting FLY it just hung for several minutes before I disconnected.

I then went over to the 102 co-op server and flew two missions. That was fun, even though I was by myself and it got shutdown at the conclusion of the second mission (at least with a friendly message this time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif ) .

I then went to WC where we used a high degree of coordinated teamwork (comms were essential) in the face of overwhelming odds (sometimes greater than 2-1) to achieve the mission objective. It was intensely FUN.

@ Outlaw...you is S N E A K Y. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

What _I_ want (which is all I can accurately speak to) is a wvariety of well designed mission s (they don't even have to be balanced...I like attempting the near impossible sometimes) with clear objectives and an interesting brief. I like wingmen on comms (so if there were a way to schedule or see other's schedules as to when they could or would want to fly, that'd be cool). Controls like in the 102 server are sweet--being able to replay a mission or allow others in (UNLOCK), etc. I tend to like the late war planes, but I'll fly the early ones. Since I don't have much time, I prefer missions that are fairly action oriented (don't have an hour of flying with 5 minutes of action followed by an hour of return flying). Hope that helps.

* _54th_Speeder *<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://members.cox.net/~ijhutch/_images/360x200signew.jpg (http://www.fiftyfourth.com/)
Also, my personal webspace dedicated to WW2 Combat Flight simming can be found at:
simace.com (http://www.simace.com/)

TacticalYak3
10-26-2006, 11:35 AM
First let me say I enjoy talking about this type of gameplay experiences with other like-minded folks!

Fair enough comments guys. So let's cut to the chase. For a lack of a better word ? intimacy - is the real reason why it seems so hard to find many good examples of this type of gaming online.

People, even general acquaintances, are reluctant to interact so closely together online. I believe that's the answer you are searching for, and quite frankly you will never truly resolve it in my opinion. There it is. Not judging just observing. Most (but not all) want their independence and a comfortable distance from other gamers (strangers). That's cool I can understand how some feel about this personal matter of privacy.

For folks looking to explore the enjoyment of more meaningful teamwork you need to spend some real time with others to do it even decently well. For example, our little band of misfits (with changing faces) has been flying together in this form of gaming for a couple years. There are still so much more for us to learn and explore!

For strong teamwork folks need to be on voice comms with other virtual pilots, preferably with a wingman and a flight leader. There has to be a social contract that the mission matters, and that everyone will be playing a role to foster the immersion. And the core group has to do this for some period of time in order to see success in the immersion (and hopefully missions).

Intimacy/socialization is the great stumbling block for many in the online crowd. My comments are based on both being a long-time member of this crowd longing for such teamplay with my fellow IL-2 pilots, to eventually making the scary decision of joining a friendly squad so I could promote such gaming experiences. And for the record folks don't need to create an official squadron, they just need to spend some time together fostering the atmosphere needed for the level of teamplay being sought.

Regards,
TS!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://ca.geocities.com/ohearnsmcmm@rogers.com/Banner.jpg

F6_Ace
10-26-2006, 11:44 AM
But that is the beauty of co-ops in general...

I went into the new server last night and was made instantly welcome. The pilots there were having a laugh whilst also flying seriously. The server controller was responsive to the wishes of the players in the server.

During the time in the server there was no team killing, no deliberate rammings, no 'yo momma' remarks, no kill stealing, no bawling about xyz plane being uber or porked and no cheating.

Just like any other co-op server, in fact - "intimacy" and teamwork are almost standard even amongst strangers.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004YL1M.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg

TacticalYak3
10-26-2006, 12:51 PM
You had the right host with the right group of lads. Fun experience. I would suggest on another night, even with a good host and some decent folks, it only takes a few to ruin the experience.

This issue is not about better flyers in squads, but both the protection/reliability and even deeper teamwork that comes from a regular group of guys/gals flying COOPS/campaigns together.

This is where online wars have the potential of being enjoyable, as long as both sides agree to the mission. It is not that those who are not affliated with any group, formal or informal, don't or can't have these experiences, it just that you need enough lads to agree to this type of gameplay experience to really enjoy it.

I guess to get back to the original post/lament, whether the reasons I am offering are the right ones, if folks agree that there is less examples of this type of gameplay in the online crowd, all I'm saying is you will find a lot of folks enjoying it amongst various groups and for the reasons I have tried to explain.

Regards,
TS!<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://ca.geocities.com/ohearnsmcmm@rogers.com/Banner.jpg

F6_Ace
10-26-2006, 12:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TacticalYak3:
You had the right host with the right group of lads. Fun experience. I would suggest on another night, even with a good host and some decent folks, it only takes a few to ruin the experience.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, you are correct but that applies to any environment - DF, online war etc.

In terms of online war, I certainly never felt 'as welcome' because I wasn't in a squad and you always feel like the odd one out. That's not so true in co-ops, IMO.

I used to admin a DF server (still do from time to time) and I can honestly say that the amount of times you get someone nobheading around in a co-op is almost negligible in comparison, even at weekends when the real kids come out to play. Whether that would be true of the intermediate ground of a dedicated co-op server is yet to be seen.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004YL1M.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg

WB_Outlaw
10-26-2006, 01:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SithSpeeder:
I tried the HL server "Co-Op Dedicated" last night. This did NOT work well. The mission lacked a brief. And after hitting FLY it just hung for several minutes before I disconnected.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, it worked perfectly, the concept is just different from what you're thinking and it only has 2 missions on it right now. The HL server "Co-Op Dedicated" uses SturmiCom as the controller and it has a totally different principle than rnzoli's DSC. SturmiCom is very immature as I've only got around 60 hours in it but is rock solid at what it does.

SturmiCom missions are timed, each lasting 50 minutes (this is configurable of course). You can join at any time, even while a mission is playing, but there is no way to stop a mission in progress. This is by design as I don't believe missions should ever be stopped once started. Also, I think that knowing exactly when the mission will start allows you to plan accordingly.

Missions start at the top of each hour with the 10 minutes between missions available for planning, beer, bathroom, and/or whatever else you need. Of course, this assumes that you can stand more than one mission of this type a night. It's pretty tough to do these missions flying in formation and keeping your eyes open, never knowing where the bandits will come from.

If you've ever built a co-op mission you know that setting up a 50 minute long mission for 32 players is pretty difficult. Since I'm not even sure of the load capability of the server, I'm not going to spend a lot of time building missions until I'm sure that the server can handle enough players to make it worthwhile (I consider 20 players a minimum for a real server).

That's why I asked for load testers a while back. The response I got was absolutely nil but I'm going to try posting again before I give up completely.

--Outlaw.

waffen-79
10-26-2006, 01:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cmirko:
hi m8 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

the nick is hilarious http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (the in game one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) - you are one of those satisfied customers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif i can see http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

yeah, we all feel that campaigns are the main goal of this kind of server, but we were all regulars and doing some testing with our WiP DF generator (QMB style) which is a great tool for squad and tactic training http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

looking forward to flying with you again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

@Cmirko

Hi mate, what proggie is that? can I have it?

Thanks in advance<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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You need blokes like me to fly Blue side!
Banning Planes OnLine? NOT COOL, M'KAY?

cmirko
10-26-2006, 01:31 PM
sry outlaw for hijacking your thread, but i will just post another clarification on TS join scipt not working at

http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/status-cmirko.html

the problem seems trivial, internet explorer for some reason does not want to launch TS from this script, and since I´m exclusively a firefox user i didn`t even try to see if it works from other browsers...., now there is info for ts server above the script so players can join usual way http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

@waffen-79, pm sent m8 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

rnzoli
10-26-2006, 02:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TacticalYak3:
I do believe COOPS and online campaigns generally have found a better home among squads and alike. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I also agree to this. Co-ops - how surprising http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif - require a greater degree of cooperation than DF games, and the level of cooperation is naturally higher in organized squads.

However, let's not lose sight of the fact that there are people around, who are willing and capable of cooperation in coop missions, even though they don't want to join a squad (lack of time, lack of interest in military-style dependencies, or both).

Moreover, as Outlaw pointed out, there are people fed up with online flying in DF environment, due to its highly competitive (and sometimes outright agressive) atmosphere, and either retire or reduce flight time due to this.

Finally, there are squad members, who have more play time at their hand, and appear in the lobby without the rest of the squad.

The concept of the dedicated co-op servers addresses these 3 groups. It tries to provide something more serious than a well-scripted DF server, but not as heavy as a squad coop or online war mission. The dedicated coop servers try to bring more coops to the masses, more easily available, with more control for the players themselves.

If I look at the stat pages, there are many regulars not belonging to any squad, still coming back when their time permits, flying with discipline, not-so-rarely even on comms. Then there are obvious squad members, but not always appearing with their squad matest. Nevertheless, they seem to be finding ad-hoc mission partners, sometimes from completely different squads, and 'team up' successfully for the duriation of the mission on either side.

So this intermediate 'layer' of pilots seems to exist, but maybe its simply too "thin" yet. We hope to attrack people getting bored with dogfight servers and the refly mentality, and we might also attract offline people, who want to expand into online flying, but rather prefer the campaign-style missions than the DF-style mission online.

We will see how appealing the dedicated coop servers become. As the date of BoB release became postponed, I am a little bit more confident that this sort of variety, and more lively coop scene might become useful to bridge the time-gap with something (moderately) interesting until BoB:SoW arrives finally.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

A "world's first": fully automatic, dedicated COOP server controller. Features and available servers here (http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/intro-coop.html).
http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/the_full_difficulty_COOP_server.JPG (http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/intro-coop.html)

rnzoli
10-28-2006, 09:52 AM
blurp... oh, i mean, bump....http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

i don't think i said something so smart that no one would argue with. it.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif so here's another change before this topic dives through GD faster than a P47 without wings..<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

A "world's first": fully automatic, dedicated COOP server controller. Features and available servers here (http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/intro-coop.html).
http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/the_full_difficulty_COOP_server.JPG (http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/intro-coop.html)

Draughluin1
10-28-2006, 07:00 PM
I'd say that most players are generally after the quick, fast, furious action of a dogfight server, using a smallish map. I can understand your sentiments and like yourself am always after something a little different. Being in squad is good, though involvement in comps like Scorched Earth could be the answer for you. Anyway, goodluck.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://members.optushome.com.au/~draughluin1/pages/introductionpag.html (http://members.optushome.com.au/%7Edraughluin1/pages/introductionpag.html)