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XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 10:39 PM
Hello,
Was wondering how many dogfights in the real war turned into the 30 or 40 minute twisting ordeals that happens alot in the game. Something tells me that most of them were quick encounters and departures. Any comments?

Atticus

http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~nagle/p51dalone.jpg


Atticus

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 10:39 PM
Hello,
Was wondering how many dogfights in the real war turned into the 30 or 40 minute twisting ordeals that happens alot in the game. Something tells me that most of them were quick encounters and departures. Any comments?

Atticus

http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~nagle/p51dalone.jpg


Atticus

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 10:43 PM
Most time very short as 10 mins or less because of fuel limit and ammo limit even wingmen will come along and help kills. Ummmm....plenty of stories between VVS and LW expert take long dogfight that got lot of sweat over body that wet their clothes even cold outside.

Regards
SnowLeopard

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 10:50 PM
If you mean from spotting to killing then a few minutes. If you mean from initial engagement to killing then most dogfight...probably in excess of 80%...were over in 30 seconds or less.

The long swirling lone wolf dogfights you often see in game are pretty much ahistorical. Yes, they did occur on occasion but were extremly rare--which is why they are remembered and re-told so often. It's boring to say "I spotted the enemy at my low two and diving out of the sun blew his wing as he flew straight and level."

Real "dogfighting" was more like a stealthy assasination than it was the "noble joust" of comic books and Hollywood...

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 10:54 PM
That is what I've read as well.
I've also been thinking about how much it really took to bring a plane down. It seemed that the original IL2 was very conducive to alot of bullets to get the job done. The newer FB takes less it seems!



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Atticus

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2003, 11:01 PM
I think WWI dogfights were longer. I would love to have a very good sim based on that era.

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 02:34 AM
WWSensei wrote:
- If you mean from spotting to killing then a few
- minutes. If you mean from initial engagement to
- killing then most dogfight...probably in excess of
- 80%...were over in 30 seconds or less.
-
- The long swirling lone wolf dogfights you often see
- in game are pretty much ahistorical. Yes, they did
- occur on occasion but were extremly rare--which is
- why they are remembered and re-told so often. It's
- boring to say "I spotted the enemy at my low two and
- diving out of the sun blew his wing as he flew
- straight and level."
-
- Real "dogfighting" was more like a stealthy
- assasination than it was the "noble joust" of comic
- books and Hollywood...
-
-


From every thing that I have read about the subject you are right on target. The average dogfight was one minute or less.


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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 02:43 AM
From most of my flights online and offline, they seem to mirror reality. Most dogfights usually last a couple of minutes.

I did have an incredibly long dogfight once where a 109 and myself somehow found our selves alone. I was in a lag3 `41.

It must have lasted about 20 mins (it felt longer).
We were flying so long I actually think we got to `know` eachother in the process. My right hand was aching from all the joystick, rudder twisting manouevers!

We actually S! eachother - it was well deserved!

Very rare.





"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.
(Spitfire & Escape Whiner Member).

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 02:45 AM
30 or 40 minutes? I've never been in a sim dogfight that lasted more than a few minutes. It might seem like 30 or 40 if your opponent is good.

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 05:52 AM
"It might seem like 30 or 40 if your opponent is good".

Well, that explains it for me. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif




http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~nagle/p51dalone.jpg


Atticus

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 06:20 AM
Well, a lot of factors are not involved in a game, which in real life, made a clear difference. We can expect some parts of the game geometry to mirror real life situations, but in no way can they be considered the same.

For instance, pilot factors such as fatigue, fear, excitement, safety regulations, play a lot in the game. Fairly unpleasant, is the sensation of going suddenly to high G maneuvers, and even more so going into -G... as well as rolling around which may cause severe disorientation, and abrupt change of roll direction may cause you to shake your neck around sideways, which, after a time, really really hurts, if we hear what the pilots have to say.

Such things are commonly seen when we watch at the guncam footages. Many people tend to think; "Gee, for a guy under fire he ain't wiggling too hard" - and the target plane is shot down. It almost seems disappointing for people who expected an action-packed chase.

Most people forget that the guncam footages are roughly 1/3rd actual speed, as well as the fact that even a simple break turn can be a very effective defensive maneuver in real life. A simple barrel roll, which we do everyday in the game, was considered an expertise to pull off successfully - the timing must be impeccable, and there are still many dangers such as the enemy being a good shooter, or collision.

Those are all unnecessary risks in real life.

In the usual environment of engaging multiple cons, the logical choice when you see somebody shooting at you, would be to wiggle around little bit and drag him, until a wingman comes to save you. Going into fancy moves, not only does not guarantee you will survive, but also is very hard to do, tiring, risky, dangerous, and will only delay your wingman from saving you. One would take their chances in slow jinking, betting that his wingman is on the way to save him, rather than go into a even more dangerous situation.

Ofcourse, to take those chances and wait for your wingman, rather than give in to the urge to throw the stick around in panic, a relation ship of absolute trust was necessary - that's why squadrons are trained in team tactics. You learn to rely your very life, on your wingman.

..

Even in 1 vs 1 engagements, cases of 'fancy maneuvering' are rarely reported. Most usually after a few moves, the opponents end up in a one-circle chase which may go for some 10~20 minutes - and then they'd either both decide on chivalry, signal each other and break off opposite ways.. or, they'd sweat all over, carefully looking at each other, and think to themselves that they will run away the moment the other guy starts running away(which in many cases, was the cause for 20 minutes of one-circle turning - since, you never know the other guy might decide to chase you. Thus, the two opponents would both wait for the other guy to break off, and since both were waiting for the other guy to do so, nobody broke off - boring one-circle turn).

Probably in reality, the maneuver known to sim-pilots as "rolling scissors", rarely ever happened. This maneuver is one of the advanced ACMs in air combat sims, but it puts two opponents barrel-rolling after each other's tail, at slow speeds, each trying to overshoot the other. This move consists of all the dangerous things in combat maneuvering - disorientation(from rolling) + fatigue(continuous input) + close ranges(collision) + low speeds(imminent stall).. and the worst of it all, is that the guy who loses in maneuvering usually ends up getting shot down 99% of the time.

I doubt anybody in real life, would ever go into that kind of fight with the enemy pilot.



-----------
Due to pressure from the moderators, the sig returns to..

"It's the machine, not the man." - Materialist, and proud of it!

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 06:25 AM
arcadeace wrote:
- I think WWI dogfights were longer. I would love to
- have a very good sim based on that era.
-
-

Would'nt take much to convert FB to a WWI sim...

I would thing Oleg and crew would take that one on..


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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 06:33 AM
I remember reading an instruction booklet on dogfight manuvers. It's comment on scissors fighting was, "if you have gotten into a scissors fight, someone screwed up."

Yet, a properly executed scissors is devastating against an inexperienced pilot, even in a heavier, and less manuverable aircraft. I remember one beautiful scissors battle I got into against a Yak-3 some time ago, (I was in a P-47). He couldn't hold with it, so he tried to climb out, but he was just to slow to do so. It was perfect. He ended up hanging in mid air, just meters away from my guns, right in my sights. It was perfect. Then he hit refly. Not a shot had been fired the entire fight.

Harry Voyager

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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 06:38 AM
About being to shoot someone down with less than a second of trigger time in the newer version of FB, this is true, at least with the US planes.

50. cals will shred a wing off in nothing flat.

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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 07:10 AM
kweassa , makes some interesting points there...

"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.
(Spitfire & Escape Whiner Member).

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 08:17 AM
arcadeace wrote:
- I think WWI dogfights were longer. I would love to
- have a very good sim based on that era.
-
-

Red Baron 3D has a complete makeover, "Full Canvas Jacket" to bring the graphics and physics up to more current standards.
There are two other WW I sims coming out, "Knights of the Air" I beleive and another one I don't remember the name of now.

In FB use I-153 (don't retract the landing gear) and UV-2's.

http://www.il2skins.com/ has many skins for these planes that are WW I based.

<center>Beebop-ProudBirds-VFW<center>http://www.uploadit.org/files/230903-Beebop%20Sig.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 11:45 AM
From what I've heard, turning fights were to best to be avoided. Too many uncontrollable variables, especially in multiaircraft encounters. I remember hearing once that more WW1 aicraft were lost to midair collision than were shot down. Maybe someone could post saying whether this is true.

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 02:10 PM
The thread from kweassa is really making me think about this sim. Imagine a roller coaster sim of extreme proportions. On the computer version, the player could play this all day and all night long with no physical problems. Except for the occasional buggy eyes and wrist pain.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But, in real life, physically it would be downright upsetting. I think about this in context to flying during the war. This sim cannot approximate the physical demands of flying those planes. Every ounce of potential can be brought out of the plane because of the lack of human limitations.
This is making me think that it would be awesome if they somehow designed an option into the game like this more than they have. Almost a health bar that affects the speed of your input. The ability to provide input after several high g moves. Almost a buffer between the controller and the plane that corresponds to real life fatigue and confusion brought about by intense g forces. Everything in the sim is fearless as well. It would be cool to program this hesitation and reality into the AI more as well. This would be tough, but it's possible. At least partly and would be a cool realistic option to be able to turn on and off. They can approximate black and red out. I believe they could approximate fatigue by simply buffering input forces from the controller. Just don't know how they could imitate rising and falling stomachs. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~nagle/p51dalone.jpg


Atticus

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 02:24 PM
And not all spottings ended in a fight... There were many times when pilots of both sides decided they just hadn't the necesssary advantage and odds to even engage and just passed by...

But the most current situation was this: a flight sees foe aircraft in disadvantage -i.e. fewer planes at lower altitude- and bounced them. A pass with some success or not and went straight. If they thought they were still in advantage, then a combat happened. If not, they just said goodbye and flied away...

But both AI and human players in FB know they aren't really risking their lives or their mates', so they go on and on fighting, even if they cannot win, until someone is down. But those aren't the rules of war. These are: survive today, and fight tomorrow. Save your wits for the combats where you really have a chance. The fastest plane decides.

- Dux Corvan -



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XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 02:46 PM
I mentioned I had a very long online dogfight once. The truth is that after 10 mins I decided we were well matched and should call it a day.

My reason it took so long was because of my fear of breaking away and being shot down. His was too. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.
(Spitfire & Escape Whiner Member).

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 03:19 PM
There wouldn't be as many turning dogfights online if the sound was accurate. Being able to hear an aircraft come up behind you truly inhibits the ability to attack with surprise. In the end most of the time, your adversay hears you and then breaks, resulting in a turning dogfight.

If you read about the Experts you will find that for the most part they made the majority of their kills by sneaking up behind someone and then blasting away. The top Expert with 352 kills totally disagreed with the concept of as turning dogfight. He believed in speed, surprise, and a violent act(up close and heavy firing).

What surprises me though is the reports of 109 pilots firing just bursts from their F-4s or G-2s(without the mk 108) and taking down VVS aircraft. Normally, in the sim it takes a little more than one burst to take an aircraft down.
A great book on the both the LW and the VVS is Black Cross/ Red Star.

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 03:26 PM
My record is a huge swirling 47 minute fight in the Coop mission with the 12 P-47s and 12 109s. I was flying a P-47 and shot down 7 enemy when the last 109 killed me. After 47 minutes I was exhausted.

_____________
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Kapitan - 38. OIAE

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 03:42 PM
IVJG51_Swine wrote:
- What surprises me though is the reports of 109
- pilots firing just bursts from their F-4s or
- G-2s(without the mk 108) and taking down VVS
- aircraft. Normally, in the sim it takes a little
- more than one burst to take an aircraft down.
- A great book on the both the LW and the VVS is Black
- Cross/ Red Star.

I don't mean to be rude, but that probably just means that you're not a very good shot (or that you have an underpowered computer and dogfight at 10 fps). It defenately is possible to take an aircraft down in a short burst with an F-4 or a G-2, but not from a dead 6.
You can either slice their wingroots off, or ruin their engine in a deflection shot. You'll find it easier if you're less than 200 m from your target too. The trick is : close, and not from a dead 6. But it's not easy, and requires patience.

However I must agree to a certain extent, having read a book about Hans-Joachim Marseille, it's bloody tough to down 5 P-40s in a sortie with a jammed cannon and shooting only with MGs, and only having used half the ammo-load in the process...

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 03:53 PM
I think that the planes in IL2/FB can take heavier damage than the real plane. I have seen some real guncamerafilms and it seems as a short burst with a Mg or cannon would turn the plane into a ball of fire.

If the planes in this simulator had damageprofiles close to real ones, a burst in wing would be a kill instead of some dangling flakes of metal or paint.
With a realistic damageprofile would the dogfight end quicker.

For instance one hit of the Me/109 30mm gun is most likely enough to down a fighter.
I have counted to ten hits in a Yak and it still flew.

Heinz Knoke wrote in his book I flew for the fuhrer that his nosegun blew up large holes in the fuselage of a bomber and four five hits in the wing was enough for it to explode.

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 04:21 PM
depends where u hit
i heard of a hurricane limping home, going up and down all the time being shot by a 109 i think
hurri didnt dodge or anything
reason?
pilot dead, the g forces would move the stick about etc
part of the reason gun cam films we see insta death is there probably the cream of the crop /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


whineingu /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 04:38 PM
If your saying that it is easy to take down an IL-2 online with a quick burst from an F-4(20mm cannon here, not the mk 108), you are full of it.
karlzeiss wrote:
-
- IVJG51_Swine wrote:
-- What surprises me though is the reports of 109
-- pilots firing just bursts from their F-4s or
-- G-2s(without the mk 108) and taking down VVS
-- aircraft. Normally, in the sim it takes a little
-- more than one burst to take an aircraft down.
-- A great book on the both the LW and the VVS is Black
-- Cross/ Red Star.
-
- I don't mean to be rude, but that probably just
- means that you're not a very good shot (or that you
- have an underpowered computer and dogfight at 10
- fps). It defenately is possible to take an aircraft
- down in a short burst with an F-4 or a G-2, but not
- from a dead 6.
- You can either slice their wingroots off, or ruin
- their engine in a deflection shot. You'll find it
- easier if you're less than 200 m from your target
- too. The trick is : close, and not from a dead 6.
- But it's not easy, and requires patience.
-
- However I must agree to a certain extent, having
- read a book about Hans-Joachim Marseille, it's
- bloody tough to down 5 P-40s in a sortie with a
- jammed cannon and shooting only with MGs, and only
- having used half the ammo-load in the process...
-
-
-
-
-

XyZspineZyX
11-09-2003, 05:47 PM
IVJG51_Swine wrote:
- If your saying that it is easy to take down an IL-2
- online with a quick burst from an F-4(20mm cannon
- here, not the mk 108), you are full of it.
- karlzeiss wrote:
--
-
--An anicdote from a german pilot i quote.

Oberst Werner Molders was visiting JG 77 when he overherd an NCO pilot complain of of a botched attack on an IL2.
Iiylushin`s heavily armoured ground attack stormovik was undoudtedly the hardest soviet aircraft to bring down.

Molders took the Oberfeldwebel up the next day to demonstrate his technique:

He positioned himself off to one side of-and some distance from- the last Il-2 in a formation of six.He then turned in quickly and opened fire at the enemy`s cockpit from an angle of some 30 degrees. The Il-2 burst into flames and crashed."Do you see how it`s done?" Oberst Molders voice came over the R/T."Right, now you take the next one" .
"I carried out the same manoeuvre and sure enough, the next Il-2 went down in flames "And again!" It was like being on a training flight .Another sort burst and the third Il-2 was ablaze. The whole lesson had lasted no more than 12 minutes!"

unquote

Tactic teamwork and practice ?

Did the soviet pilots just sit there and take it? From this account they didn`t even know the 109`s were there a common point raized by surviving downed aircrew.
(these Il-2 did not have rear gunners)

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