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View Full Version : Why ******** in furball when you can fly tactical



jugent
05-19-2005, 01:28 PM
I put an honour in staying alive on a dogfight server. I rather land with one kill seven times than get killed 6 times with different numbers of kills, and land ones with 7 kills.
Many pilots engage in the furball circle dive shoot and die after some minutes.
A group of five or six spit-pilots that coop would easy kill 5 enemies each if they cooperated and got out in the right time.

jugent
05-19-2005, 01:28 PM
I put an honour in staying alive on a dogfight server. I rather land with one kill seven times than get killed 6 times with different numbers of kills, and land ones with 7 kills.
Many pilots engage in the furball circle dive shoot and die after some minutes.
A group of five or six spit-pilots that coop would easy kill 5 enemies each if they cooperated and got out in the right time.

MEGILE
05-19-2005, 01:29 PM
Because its quick and more fun.

VV_Holdenb
05-19-2005, 02:04 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif because it's fun http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

FoolTrottel
05-19-2005, 02:13 PM
What VV_Holdenb said, I'm with him.

It's allways good fun to join some furball, see how far it goes ... just how long I can stay in the air....

Man, picture me 'flying', w/o TS, all alone in the skies (navigational skills are limited, SA is hardly present) I'm heading out to somewhere, thinking 'Here I am, got me good height, nice to play with' allways looking 'round (using TIR!), only looking at clear blue skies... then suddenly ... tracers fly by, speakers go boom-crash-bang, FFB Stick does it's thing.... I take evasing action ... I spin ... or the plane just isn't controllable anymore (result is the same)

It's always fun to get blasted, out from nowhere, never knowing what hit me!

The immersion, the switch from happily cruising along, enjoying the scenery, to all-h*ll-breaks-loose, truly a shock, heartbeat's way up!

Well, I may sound like a fool, but to me, this is fun!

ploughman
05-19-2005, 02:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">A group of five or six spit-pilots that coop would easy kill 5 enemies each if they cooperated and got out in the right time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


We know, but we don't. It'd just be too easy.

Monty_Thrud
05-19-2005, 02:52 PM
I love the Furballs, when i fly online i nearly always record it and edit it(if there's enough action in it), so i can watch it afterwards, because i love sitting back and watching planes flying and fighting, so i head for the action to get this on film.

But the tactical way is also good...but not much fun to watch afterwards, but yes if i do fly this way, i wont record it but fly much smarter and as Clouseau said "there are many ways to catch a minkey"

jugent
05-19-2005, 03:29 PM
Ploughman how english of you if you took the full advantage of the spit. It wouldnt be a "jolly good sport" would it?
Its like playing golf with a not so skilled player, you give him some free hits.
It is good for the game that there are sportsmen like you and your companions.

VW-IceFire
05-19-2005, 04:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jugent:
I put an honour in staying alive on a dogfight server. I rather land with one kill seven times than get killed 6 times with different numbers of kills, and land ones with 7 kills.
Many pilots engage in the furball circle dive shoot and die after some minutes.
A group of five or six spit-pilots that coop would easy kill 5 enemies each if they cooperated and got out in the right time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Most pilots on most servers are incapable of thinking beyond turning circles around each other. I think it was LEXX who put it the best way that the online community is representative of USAAF 1941 fighter doctrine. How true.

NorrisMcWhirter
05-19-2005, 06:12 PM
I'm actually glad that most people only know how to turn. It makes them easier to shoot down.

The logic behind trying to shoot as many planes down as they can prior to an inevitable demise I do not understand at all. Still, each to their own.

Cheers,
Norris

Pirschjaeger
05-19-2005, 06:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jugent:
I put an honour in staying alive on a dogfight server. I rather land with one kill seven times than get killed 6 times with different numbers of kills, and land ones with 7 kills.
cooperated and got out in the right time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're not a wingman are you? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Fritz

vocatx
05-19-2005, 07:30 PM
I was on GG two nights in a row this week. On several of the maps there were ground target which would require more than a 500 kg bomb, necessitating the use of a bomber. One night I was the ONLY person on my team to take a bomber. Everybody else saddled up and headed to the furball. I flew FIVE sorties, hit the targets, and RTB'd without ever seeing an enemy plane.

I agree the furballs are fun, and I did eventually take a fighter up both nights, but doesn't strategy and winning the map play a part? Maybe I've got it all wrong....
S!

T_O_A_D
05-19-2005, 07:35 PM
I did the same thing on GG the other night, I flew this one sortie, and shot down one Japenese plane on a headon while treking my way to Iwo Jima, Once there I skipped bombed a boat, and the used all my rockets and all my ammo on the base and out lying areas. and then landed safely on the most eastern Carrier.

I try to say out of the Furballs, To easy to die in there.

Pirschjaeger
05-19-2005, 07:36 PM
I like furballs. Cough, choke, gag, ahem. Usually I take a higher position and watch from above. When I see one of my guyz in trouble I go down and clear his 6 then back up to a higher position and watch again. I continue this until the fight is over. I may not get many kills but I get a lot of assists. Leave the glory for the new guys. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Cough, wheez, choke, cough, spit, ahem. Love furballs. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

HellToupee
05-19-2005, 08:08 PM
because you cant save your teammates in the fureball by running away. Plus if everybody did the fly tactical stuff the guys going for the objectives would have a field day no one would be willing to come down and dogfight em on the deck http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jaco_Erdwurm
05-19-2005, 08:42 PM
I personally am with jugent I would rather get a kill then return home and then back up into the fight,The primal urge to dive into a furball is there and I used to do it to my almost certain demise but flying Toads wing alot and watching some of the other more experienced pilots has taught me alot.I also enjoy the TS coop play element ,if there is no TS up for a server,I will move on ,the results are always better with team flight

Henkie_
05-19-2005, 08:48 PM
Why not furball get kills, not get killed and then land?

Then do it again?

Flying "tactical" for staying alive is easy. But it's the same as not taking off. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

HellToupee
05-20-2005, 01:22 AM
yes why land landings an issue when ur well behind enemy lines with 4 kills under your belt with most ammo extended, do you

A fly the 15minutes back it took you to get there or
B turn back and plunk away at the p47 u dammaged with your peashooters and die in a blaze of glory from the others as they swarm in for some revenge. Earning you a quick refly with some ammo http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ploughman
05-20-2005, 01:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ploughman how english of you if you took the full advantage of the spit. It wouldnt be a "jolly good sport" would it?
Its like playing golf with a not so skilled player, you give him some free hits.
It is good for the game that there are sportsmen like you and your companions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What's golf?

Antonio_MRZ
05-20-2005, 01:59 AM
This makes me think, how good if we could have a server with rotating coop missions besides rotating dogfight maps...

Antonio

drose01
05-20-2005, 02:07 AM
The biggest obstacle I have to flying "tactical"?

The boredom of it.

Always climbing to get an alt advantage, staying safe, keeping speed, etc etc.

These are all things I sure would do if it were truly my a** on the line, but in the game it can get boring playing like that. It is more exciting diving into the furball.

If I go down in flames? Just hit refly.

I dont know how the hi alt guys do it, especially on full real settings when you can spend tons of time finding an enemy once you get over 3000 meters or so.

JamesBlonde888
05-20-2005, 02:33 AM
You should see the CFS3 server. They have convoys. A dogfight over there is just tacking on to the end and hammering the guy in front of you.

WOLFMondo
05-20-2005, 06:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by drose01:

I dont know how the hi alt guys do it, especially on full real settings when you can spend tons of time finding an enemy once you get over 3000 meters or so. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats the difference of online and offline or co-ops, IRL you'd be able to see groups of planes flying in formation from that height. Best to get on server comms and ask for sightings, hang about the target area's. You'll find allot of people that way.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by drose01:
The biggest obstacle I have to flying "tactical"?

The boredom of it.

Always climbing to get an alt advantage, staying safe, keeping speed, etc etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats how some planes need to be flown if you want to survive http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Your welcome to fly how you want but in some planes you need to think tactically, theres no reason why you cannot take a 190 up, get some height, find the furball and zoom in and out of it, thats tactical and fun.

ploughman
05-20-2005, 08:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You should see the CFS3 server. They have convoys. A dogfight over there is just tacking on to the end and hammering the guy in front of you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I flew on the dark side before I discovered Il 2 and it was uber-tedious mayhem. Everyone was in Tempest Vs or late model Spits, chasing each other's tails or ploughing themselves a furrow at 0 ft. A bit like a wonder woman server where all the airfields are within spitting distance of each other.

rnzoli
05-20-2005, 08:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by drose01:
If I go down in flames? Just hit refly.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The existence/non-existence of a 15 min death-kick on the server can easily sort this out.

OD_79
05-20-2005, 09:25 AM
Some of you don't seem to realise that there can be some skill involved in fighting in a furball and coming out the other end with the kills and landing.
I start off as high as possible, wait until the right moment then dive into the action and climbout again but I am quite happy to get in there and turn and burn with anyone, IT'S FUN! Flying at 13000m on your own is dull, no one is going to be bothered about you because if you dive on them you'll rip your wings off either trying to pull out or because you've gone too fast in the dive.
Each style has its merits, but "********ing in a furball" is just more fun, more challenging.

OD.

vocatx
05-20-2005, 02:11 PM
Well, it's not always boring. Last night I twice flew under a furball in a He111. Lots of planes above me and to one side. I made both runs in and back home, never had a shot fired at me. No one even saw me. When I got to the target, all I had to contend with was AA fire, and the target was just off the Red airbase. I even watched fighters taking off as I flew by, but no one was looking around, they were too intent on heading to the furball.

SlickStick
05-20-2005, 02:55 PM
Ahhhh, Pacific Fighters....

The only place where it's a good thing to be last in the ********. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Pirschjaeger
05-20-2005, 09:07 PM
When we fly on our server we often divide into teams. We fly in a rough, very rough, formation. When we spot the enemy I always start climbing while the others rush in and engage. When you have two teams with basically equal strengths, but in one team there is one tactical flyer, the out come is always the same. Just one tactical flyer makes a big difference.

After reading many of these posts in here I realized many of you are "each man for himself". I love to fly teams and always try to be everyone's wingman. I enjoy saving my teammates from being shot down and then landing with them in the end, even if I didn't get a kill.

Fritz

Hunde_3.JG51
05-20-2005, 11:14 PM
Different strokes for different folks I guess.

I can't for the life of me see how it is enjoyable for someone to dive into a furball, get a kill, then get killed and hit refly. Repeating it over and over again. To me that is like playing a driving/racing sim and just crashing into eachother and restarting the race.

I find it much more enjoyable to think about tactics, employ them properly using the characteristics of my aircraft, and seeing the successful result. To me that is rewarding. I don't understand all of these 2, 3, or even 4 to 1 kill/death ratios. How do people die that much? Note I didn't say get shot down.

Again, to each his own. That is why there is chocolate and vanilla http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Pirschjaeger
05-21-2005, 01:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hunde_3.JG51:
Different strokes for different folks I guess.

I can't for the life of me see how it is enjoyable for someone to dive into a furball, get a kill, then get killed and hit refly. Repeating it over and over again. To me that is like playing a driving/racing sim and just crashing into eachother and restarting the race.

I find it much more enjoyable to think about tactics, employ them properly using the characteristics of my aircraft, and seeing the successful result. To me that is rewarding. I don't understand all of these 2, 3, or even 4 to 1 kill/death ratios. How do people die that much? Note I didn't say get shot down.

Again, to each his own. That is why there is chocolate and vanilla http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

OD_79
05-21-2005, 02:22 AM
I'm not saying I fly without a team or without tactics...when it comes down to it I much prefer flying as part of my squad helping wingmen and them helping me, but we manage to do that in a furball as well as flying tactically, there are tactics to flying this way as well you know. We always gain height to start from an advantageous position...we're not stupid we don't go in at low level throttle set to 30%!
As for flying a bomber...that is different...if you think you can get in a turning fight in a bomber good luck to you! I enjoy flying the bombers and when I do my aim is to avoid everyone as much as possible...that goes without saying...I'm not playing to die!
But if you think about it and no one ever got into turning fights what would all you 'tactical' pilots do??? Wave at each other? You would just end up in...you guessed it turning fights, if not you just wouldn't engage each other. I can't remember who said it but the best plans only last about 30 seconds in the heat of battle, the same can be said for some tactics.

OD.

diomedes33
05-21-2005, 11:15 AM
Since Hunde is my XO, if I fly stupid I not only die but also get yelled at. Tactics are more fun anyway. Out thinking your opponent is much more gratifying than yanking the stick around and getting lucky. This goes for both energy fighting and turn fighting.

Furballs are fun. I dive through them cannons blazing and watch the spitfires scatter like roaches. I usually at least cripple one of them.

One time I was flying a 190 and a P-47 (enemy) had the same idea. We didn't see each other in the beginning. I dove in ruffled the feathers a bit. When I was in my zoom climb, I noticed a plane off my wing about 200 m. I think we both saw each other at the same time, because we both broke in opposite directions in a panic.

VW-IceFire
05-21-2005, 11:22 AM
I'm quite content for the circling to continue. It means more kills for me waiting a few thousand meters above and scattering enemy planes as I dive through firing.

I find nothing so much more fun than having a closure speed of 300kph and burning bandit going past me in 2 seconds flat.

But I do get annoyed/hysterically laughing when guys ****g me off for flying the FW190 to its proper tactics instead of trying to turn with them (and horribly loosing).

Also...I find it funny when I engaged another attacker at higher altitude (we were both conducting slash attacks) and in the end it was a high speed dive over one of the airbases and a couple of guys were wondering how we were going so fast....I guess they had never heard of a dive before. Dogfights at 600kph are pure joy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

WTE_Warg
05-21-2005, 04:47 PM
Well some people like furball's and that's fair enough. While they are fun, I find them too much of a "lucky dip" to enter into. You need someone to cover your tail. I prefer to play the precentages and put things in my favour from the start. I guess the approach depends on the missions criteria, goals and whats in the Daemon scripting. If it has bombing targets like in GG last night, then I'll usually get in a light bomber and go after the ground targets. Its a good challenge and test of ability. Like an earlier post said, while the furballs are milling around low, with a little bit of planning, a bomber can take out the targets unmolested. Sometimes you get lucky, like last night and can change the map inside of 15 minutes. By coming over at 3000m, you can usually get to and bomb targets in a Stuka without seeing any enemy. Gettin home is the problem, as they are always milling around down low and they will make a beeline for the obvious target when you pull out of the dive. But I look at it this way. If I've been able to get to the target and bomb it, then the fighter defenses haven't been doing the job properly. Anyway, I enjoy the game and thats what matters most.

bolillo_loco
05-21-2005, 05:43 PM
one mans junk is another mans furball

jugent
05-22-2005, 01:58 AM
I have tried to fly as wingman but my number one dived into a furball and it gets me killed while I try to cover his *****.
I have tried to get communication on TeamSpeak but the dicipline was terrible.
They blocked the channel with nonsence instead of giving vital messages.
Nothing like common broadcast-dicipline, who is calling, who is reciver etc etc.
Golf is a game where you walk on a lane and try to shoot a white hard ball in a hole far away.
You use a set of sticks when you shoot the little ball.
It is a very popular sport and there is large tournament yearly, like US-master.
Tiger Woods is a famous golf-player.

Pirschjaeger
05-22-2005, 06:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OD_79:
I enjoy flying the bombers and when I do my aim is to avoid everyone as much as possible...that goes without saying...I'm not playing to die!
But if you think about it and no one ever got into turning fights what would all you 'tactical' pilots do???
OD. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hunt bombers? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
05-22-2005, 06:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OD_79:
But if you think about it and no one ever got into turning fights what would all you 'tactical' pilots do???
OD. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If it were physically impossible for planes to fly what color would we paint the underside? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Not to insult you but this is just as valid as your question. People DO fly tactical and people DO fly furballs. Simple fact and to each his own. The combination of tactical and freak flyers in the same team has many benefits. They actually support each other. 1 + 1 = 3 when mixed, but 1 + 1 = 2 when everyone has the same style.

Why has this even turned into some sort of "green is prettier than blue" debate. Silly, yes?http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Oleg, we need the patch, the pilot's are breaking at the seams! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

JamesBlonde888
05-22-2005, 09:16 AM
My personal favourite is the dogfight convoy. In a free for all there usually ends up one plane lined up behind the other all hammering away.... much fun for me when I start from the read and BandZ 2 or three before the rest wake up. By then they are to shot up to matter ayway...rotfl.

jugent
05-23-2005, 01:09 PM
I think that they should attach an electrical shock gadget, like they put in cattlefence.
This gadget should give you a shock when you are hit by bullits and a megashock when you die.
This would give us a lesson and force us not to take death to lighthearted.

-HH-Quazi
05-23-2005, 01:41 PM
And then there's that word, "game". And most fly it as such, not really worried about getting killed because of the refly button. But as for myself, I play to survive. I just get more enjoyment and satisfaction out of my time spent. But as it has been pointed out, to each his own. And that is one of the greatest assests of this sim and this community. You fly it any way that pleases you and most of the time, they are servers(places) to do this. But flying to survive seems to be a bit more immersive to me. Just my thoughts.

Pirschjaeger
05-23-2005, 09:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jugent:
I think that they should attach an electrical shock gadget, like they put in cattlefence.
This gadget should give you a shock when you are hit by bullits and a megashock when you die.
This would give us a lesson and force us not to take death to lighthearted. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Intense tactical training. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

WTE_DuStA
05-23-2005, 09:51 PM
i say let everyone have their furballs at 500m. That allows me to happily putter along at 4-5000m and do my level bombing without having to worry about pesky fighter jocks. The other night i flew over the middle of a map on GG and recorded the track. When i reviewed it i noticed at one point there was something like 10 planes 3000m below me in a massive orgy. I had to laugh .

Pirschjaeger
05-23-2005, 10:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_DuStA:
i say let everyone have their furballs at 500m. That allows me to happily putter along at 4-5000m and do my level bombing without having to worry about pesky fighter jocks. The other night i flew over the middle of a map on GG and recorded the track. When i reviewed it i noticed at one point there was something like 10 planes 3000m below me in a massive orgy. I had to laugh . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's ok, the furballers had no intention of returning home anyway. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

jugent
05-23-2005, 11:52 PM
Im a man of integrity and dont affect with other peoples doings. I only want to know what the most common argument is for going headfirst into a furball of fighters.

JamesBlonde888
05-24-2005, 12:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jugent:
Im a man of integrity and dont affect with other peoples doings. I only want to know what the most common argument is for going headfirst into a furball of fighters. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aside from saving the as of a team-mate I can see no rational reason for doing this... Better to lurk above and look for strays methinks.

ImpStarDuece
05-24-2005, 02:25 AM
As a Jug pilot I have to fly tactical, simply for survivals stake.

I get out accelerated, out-turned and out climbed by almost every other plane of comparable vintage.

'High' is the keyword for a P-47 pilot. High alt and high speed. That's where the Thunderbolt has a chance, not at 350 kph at 300 meters with the 109s and Spitfires.

If it takes me 6 minutes to climb to 3500m I don't care because the likely hood is that I will only have to do it once. If I flew low alt I would continually have to refly, respawn and take off.

Do it once, do it properly and be sensible and you will get more action than any of the low level gangsters.

drose01
05-24-2005, 02:25 AM
posted Mon May 23 2005 22:52
"Im a man of integrity and dont affect with other peoples doings. I only want to know what the most common argument is for going headfirst into a furball of fighters."

I would say that at this stage of my learning the game that I first need to practice gunnery and aircraft handling, and the way to do that is in a target rich environment.

By maximizing the frequency of enemy encounters in a busy dogfight server, you get lots of practice.

But I certainly dont just dive in without regard to survival. I do what most people here say they do- stand off the edge, or above, or approaching with big time speed, and watching for someone to be exposed, usually someone who is too intent on chasing someone else to protect himself, or who has lost too much speed or altitude. Of course, the busier the game, the more likely that someone in turn will see you at a weak moment after you made your attack, and the cycle continues. No matter how much you try to protect yourself, when you are going for a kill you are likely to sacrifice speed or otherwise expose yourself. Even a 190 that is Zooming down to attack may not have seen that P51 slightly higher that decides to give chase.

But again, if I die in a game like that...so what? It is just practice.

Pirschjaeger
05-24-2005, 06:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
As a Jug pilot I have to fly tactical, simply for survivals stake.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a classic. Finally, an honest Jug pilot. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
05-24-2005, 07:14 AM
Actually, I got something to say about the Jug that goes against the common Jug flying practice.

Everyone seems to use the Jug as if it were meant for the outer reaches of the universe and BnZ. Why?

I have only flown it once in a d-fight server and was very impressed at how it handled down low. It doesn't stall! I normally fly the 109 but couldn't get any speed or alt since the furball was at scalp level over my base. The La7's were pounding me.

I decided to take a different ride for a change and hoped into a Jug, the earliest model. My idea is they can take the abuse of a whole squadron's ammo and still fly home.

I was attacked while trying to take off, and any Jug pilot knows it means nothing. I got into the air and turned on the enemy. I couldn't believe it. I was downing termite food(Russian woodies) like it was beer on a hot summer's day. The stall characteristics were amazing. The guns were lethal.

So I wondered, why do the Jug pilots try to reach the moon and usually only BnZ? The Jug is a flying tank! Awesome plane in my books.

Maybe my amazement is relative to the fact I fly mostly 109G2, totally different plane.

Think I'll start a thread.

Fritz

ImpStarDuece
05-24-2005, 07:54 AM
Why not fly the Jug down low?

Well, you can do it, its just not easy. I just came of a session on Warclouds where I turnfought a 109G-10 for almost 10 minutes and came out on top by sucking him into a deck level scissoring contest and dropping everything but the kitchen sink to stay airborne. Forced an overshoot and cleaned his clock.

But that is the excepetion rather than the rule.

The answer is simple really; speed, turn and climb.

Speed; Only above 6000m does the P-47 have an advantage in speed against any of its likely opponents (G6A/S, G10, K4, 190D9, 190A6-8).

In fact, against the 109G6 or later there is no significant advantage until at least 7000m, 8000m in a K4. Same can be said for the D9, which is my most feared opponent in a P-47.

Furthermore, the D-22 and D-10 models are really lacking in acceleration and generate their speed at higher alts then the D-27. Best alt for the D-10 and 22 is about 8500-9000m, knock off about 1000m from that for the D-27.

Turn; The P-47 turns well. That doesn't mean that it turns tightly or quickly. What that means is that initiating a hard turn in the P-47 is actually easier than a lot of aircraft. There is a fairly gentle stall warning and you can actually hold long hard turns quite well. She will bleed E like a 3 legged camel though if you are not disciplined and very crisp.

However, even though it can maintain the turns well, the P-47 is still a 7 ton slug. In absolute turn it is fairly even with the late modle 190s, having a slight advantage at low speed where it stall rides marginally better and has gentler stall characteristics and at very high speed (550 kph +) where it actually does turn faster than almost anything in the game. Put it up against a 109 below 6000m though and all of a sudden its like a shark versus a bather, no contest.

Instantaneous turn is lacking, meaning that you can't push the edge of the stall and whip the nose around into last minute firing solutions like the 190, 109, P-51, Spitfire ect. Try this and you will initiate a nasty stall.

Where the P-47 does shine is in its high alt turn. Above 6500m it will turn with almost anything in the game, at any speed, with the exception of a Spitfire or P-51. Furthermore, it holds energy MUCH better than anything else through high altitude turns. Jump in a P-51 vs some AI P-47s and watch them gain after you exit a turn. Its actually scary how well the P-47 holds its energy through tight turns at altitude. The same cant be said at low alt though.

Climb; climbing in the P-47 is like trying to push Jabba the Hutt up a greased slope.

Even with the paddle bladed props in the D-27 it's still very slow.

If you are co-alt with an opponent below about 4000m all they have to do is initiate a serise of climbs and they have a nice energy advantage over you, particularly if you are doing less than 400 kph. Its painful to watch a 109 grind you onto the defensive by climbing on you and then forcing turns and slow speed climb. Nothing frustrates me more than being out muscled in E gathering by a 109.

I love the P-47, I will fly it day and night, rain or shine, porked or not. I think its almost perfect now. I would like the low level E retention looked at a bit and the initial dive acceleration corrected upwards. I also think that maybe the DM is a little too resistant to 30mm cannon fire, but at the same time it is very likely to go up in flames if hit with AP rounds.

Pirschjaeger; the D-10 is by far the best turner of the P-47s we have in the game, it has a cleaner wing and it is a little more forgiving than the D-22 or D-27 in the stall. Maneuvers like hammerheads, Split-S, Immelmans and the like are also much easier. It also knocks off about 1-2 seconds turn time at low alt and *to me* feels miuch lighter overall.

Reaching the moon? Well, If I am faster, turn better, climb betterm hold energy better and can dive faster at high alt in a P-47, where do you think you are going to find me? Its about taking the attributes of your aircraft and running with them in the best way that you can, otherwise you are just asking for trouble

Pirschjaeger
05-24-2005, 09:07 AM
Hey, nice post ISD,

I can now understand now why you guyz fly around the stars. I would also imagine you don't find many enemies up there, espesially if there's a furball below.

I was in a d-fight server once and noticed the whole time this Jug way up above the action. I never saw him in action. I figurd he was a new simmer or was simply enjoying the ride. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

So I guess if I wanna fly the Jug low I'll have to be very tactical. Thanx for the info ISD http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

RAF56_BTB
05-24-2005, 09:17 AM
I often fly online as a sqadron member (which is great cos team mates can cover for the odd noob mistake). The furball activity which i see a lot on the spits vs 109 server gives a squadron certain advantages. Especially if you can get relativly close and above the swarm without being noticed. The wingleader, will often at this point send 2 of his pilots down in b and z tactic whilst the ones above keep an eye for any that tack on to our pilots tails. once the b and z tactic completes. Our wingleader will send in another two this way we always have at least two pilots with height advantage and in a position to keep an eye on the whole swarm whilst the others are mixing it. Further, the tactic allows us to switch from one side of the swarm to another as a unit.

In this way tactics are being used in a swarm it is not always succesfull but they are being deployed. I guess this must happen quiet a bit as the opportunity to deploy a tactic always remains regardless of the conditions

I have found myself the victim of tactics whilst in a swarm and noticed b and z either by one pilot or a couple. I have also found if and it is a big "IF" you noticed that a pilot or two are using the b and z tactic and you are a possible target in a swarm, to get low bug out and then gain height and come back again as the tactic is best deployed against the swarm rather than throwing that tactic away and chasing an individual.
As with all things i am begining to understand that there are no hard and fast rules in this but up until this post it has worked quiet well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Now excuse me whilst the members of 56 squadron shoot me for relaying tactics. Even though i am sure many work in this way http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif