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JOHNRAMBO84
01-27-2007, 03:02 PM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8oA9zy-qtxA http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

JOHNRAMBO84
01-27-2007, 03:02 PM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8oA9zy-qtxA http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

JSG72
01-27-2007, 03:16 PM
Very Nice.

With actual film of events that spurred me to purchase a computer and play IL2 in the first place.

Funny how these real life footages make it look easier than attacking in SIM.

JOHNRAMBO84
01-27-2007, 03:18 PM
I here ya.I kind of felt sorry for the b-17 at 3.00 it took a hell of a beatin,the crew was probly dead http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Choctaw111
01-27-2007, 04:03 PM
That was a good film with the photos and a good sound track also.
Take a look starting at 5:40. If you look close you can see the tracers flying past from the Liberators shooting back at him.

TheGozr
01-27-2007, 04:19 PM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jp5IF9ijeZQ&mode=related&search=

-HH- Beebop
01-27-2007, 06:00 PM
Boy those LW pilots sure could hang on the six of a bomber a lot longer than I can. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
Speaking of which, I have never seen gun camera footage that shows B-n-Zing like we have to do to survive. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

waffen-79
01-27-2007, 11:13 PM
that a very interesting material

BTW those bomber crews were the real war winners or at the very least the REAL crushers of the LW

JSG72
01-28-2007, 06:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Boy those LW pilots sure could hang on the six of a bomber a lot longer than I can.
Speaking of which, I have never seen gun camera footage that shows B-n-Zing like we have to do to survive. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In a couple of these films. Yes it is a wonder how those LW pilots could hang on to the Targets Six.
I would hazzard an educated guess that their victims were either "Herausschuss"(Bombers shot out of a formation) and targeted as easy pickings. In such case the crew may have already abandoned ship.

The Me 110 G2 attacks would probably have been when No escorting fighters were present over Germany.

The head on attacks were nurtured by Hans-Gunter von Konatzkis. Sturmstaffel I. flying Fw 190A-6s,7s (There is a good chance that the A-7 shots in films are from this Staffel as very few A-7s were built I believe)

This had been deemed as the most efficient way of shooting down as many of an attacking bomber formation.
With the fighters attacking line abreast and trying for hits in the lesser defended nose area of the bombers(At the time. Mid '43).
And thus killing the pilot/co pilot.

Sturmstaffel I was tried as an experiment at first. without being deemed a great success.(Tactics had not been fully realised)
However the need to halt the contiung Armadas of Bombers from all Allies was most urgent.
And the Setting up of "Sturmgruppen" within other "Geschwader" was introduced
Sturmstaffel I. being incorporated into IV/JG3. With II/(Sturm) JG300 and II/(Sturm) JG4 being others.

The time was now Mid '44 and the P51D was now escorting the US bombers and Sturm tactics had to be changed to reflect the needs of the "Sturmbock" (Heavily armed and armoured FW190A-8s").
So Escort gruppes for the Bomber destroyers had to be utelised as well. And thus using up many more of the LWs' Fighter strength. and thus the War of attrition was bound to fall in the Allies favour.
Tactics used varied from Leader to leader.
As many pilots of the Sturmgruppen were raw recruits many were not felt proficient enough to be able to make a Head On attack. (Many collisions had happened through underestimation of victims flightpath and closing velocity).

And so it was widely held that it was more comfortable to attack from the rear.(When Situations allowed).
Again Line abreast attacks were favoured with the Sturmgruppen creeping up on the vitims from behind and letting loose all at once with their armaments 20mm/30mm cannons from a range that would guarantee destruction.
That was the theory. And it sometimes worked when conditions allowed (Eighth Air Force mission No 458 7 July )
There were many other pilots in other fighter units. who had their own ideas on how to shoot down "The Vermiots" (Bombers).

One being the one modelled in IL2. Where the fighters gain a height advantage. Roll and zoom down.

Another would be to do similar but to fly through the formation with a sharp climb back up and leveling of on their tails but with a high speed advantage.

Lone wolf tactics were adjudged as fool hardy in the extreme against bomber formations.

Recommended Reads;

JagdWaffe Defending the Reich 1943-44 by Forsyth and Creek. Classic Colours pub.

JagdWaffe Defending the Reich 1944-1945 by Robert Forsyth

SturmStaffel I Reich defence 1943-1944 The War Diary by Eric Mombeek with Forsyth and Creek

Luftwaffe Sturmgruppen by John Weal. Osprey Pub.

Raiders of the Reich "Airbattle Western Europe 1942-45 by Martin W. Bowman and Theo Boiten. Airlife Pub.

Battles with the Luftwaffe "The Bomber Campaign against Germany 1942-45" by Theo Boiten and Martin Bowman. Janes Pub.

Raiding the Reich "The Allied Strategic Bombing Offensive in Europe" by Roger A. Freeman. Arms and Armour press Pub.



We dont get armoured FW190s in game and I find I can't get AI to attack from Head on. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

-HH- Beebop
01-28-2007, 07:40 AM
JSG72,
Thanks for the information and the suggested reading. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

JSG72
01-28-2007, 03:37 PM
My pleasure.-HH-Beebop http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Have many many other publications in my Library.
That may help others on actual WW2 Airial warfare.

As opposed to being able to handle the planes precisely within Sim warfare.

Cheers!

muchaclopiec
01-29-2007, 01:46 AM
I quote " A Tribute To The Luftwaffe"...oh really?..hmmm.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif

joeap
01-29-2007, 06:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by -HH- Beebop:
Boy those LW pilots sure could hang on the six of a bomber a lot longer than I can. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
Speaking of which, I have never seen gun camera footage that shows B-n-Zing like we have to do to survive. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Arrgggghhhh GUYS guys sorry listen to this: Those films are slowed down by a factor of about 4x (I've seen quoted somewhere). So they could be "booming and zooming". At any rate, they weren't hanging on the tail for 2 minutes pumping shells in that's for sure.

-HH- Beebop
01-29-2007, 06:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by joeap:
Arrgggghhhh GUYS guys sorry listen to this: Those films are slowed down by a factor of about 4x (I've seen quoted somewhere). So they could be "booming and zooming". At any rate, they weren't hanging on the tail for 2 minutes pumping shells in that's for sure. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I know that but when I B-n-Z I'm never sitting on the six. I'm aiming for the cockpit and let the bomber pass through the stream of fire, not pressing the trigger until I'm at least 500 meters or less . (fairly effective too I might add). I am also aware that these films are slowed down. (Why aren't any shown at full speed?) Still, when I spend even that short amount of time that close to the tail of a bomber I'm soon searching for the canopy release, often in a smoke and fire filled cockpit.

tagTaken2
01-29-2007, 06:58 AM
Does it seem obscene to anyone else that this is being used as a music video?
It's not a recording from the game, we can safely assume that real people died in this footage.

RxMan
01-29-2007, 08:34 AM
A big problem I think, with attacking from 6, the tail gunner is almost impossible to kill in this sim. I'll bet the first bursts from fighters were directly at the tail gun, once silenced the attack can be pressed more effectively, except in this sim.

joeap
01-29-2007, 10:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by -HH- Beebop:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by joeap:
Arrgggghhhh GUYS guys sorry listen to this: Those films are slowed down by a factor of about 4x (I've seen quoted somewhere). So they could be "booming and zooming". At any rate, they weren't hanging on the tail for 2 minutes pumping shells in that's for sure. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I know that but when I B-n-Z I'm never sitting on the six. I'm aiming for the cockpit and let the bomber pass through the stream of fire, not pressing the trigger until I'm at least 500 meters or less . (fairly effective too I might add). I am also aware that these films are slowed down. (Why aren't any shown at full speed?) Still, when I spend even that short amount of time that close to the tail of a bomber I'm soon searching for the canopy release, often in a smoke and fire filled cockpit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif I didn't mena to imply that IL2 gunners are not uber, I think they are...maybe B nZ looks different then we think, or there wasn't enough film shot in the brief encounters (especially against fighters), or who knows.

Odirroh
01-29-2007, 01:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by joeap:
...
Arrgggghhhh GUYS guys sorry listen to this: Those films are slowed down by a factor of about 4x (I've seen quoted somewhere)... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are there any proofs of this.

I hardly can believe this. Therefore I will try to illustrate
my thoughts (with my bad English). I have to mention in advance
that my knowledge in physics are very weak.

If one takes the indicated distances, one is able to calcuate
how much faster the fighter flies than the bomber.

Lets use attack number 12 (05:16) as an example:
Distance fighter to bomber = 350m
Fighter needs about 8 sec. to cover the distance.
That mean the fighter is about 150 km/h faster than the bomber.
If one assumes the B17 flies with a speed of 400 km/h the fighter
flies with around of 550 to 560 km/h. That seems plausible to me.

If we assume the video is slowed down by factor of 4, the fighter
would cover the distance of 350m within 2 seconds. That would mean
the fighter flies about 620 km/h faster than the bomber. If it is
assumed that the B17 flies with around 400 km/h, the fighter would
fly at a speed of more than 1000 km/h.

You will find similar results for some other attacks.

Can somebody confirm or disprove my assumptions?

If I am completely wrong, please dont tell it to my physics teacher http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Odirroh

-HH- Beebop
01-29-2007, 07:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tagTaken2:
Does it seem obscene to anyone else that this is being used as a music video?
It's not a recording from the game, we can safely assume that real people died in this footage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No more obscene than us playing a game about certain death and having a refly button.

Obscenity is in the mind of the beholder.

JOHNRAMBO84
01-30-2007, 06:49 AM
for some dang reason i cant get the video 2 play past 5.00 any body else having the prob http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif