PDA

View Full Version : Spinning out of control with full realism



Kelmola
06-12-2006, 09:39 AM
All right,

been playing FB/PF merged for about a year now more or less occasionally. Finally decided to go for full realism where flight model is concerned (engine management and overheat are still on "easy").

OK, I realize that with realistic flight model, you must steer gently. I know, avoid jerky movements, beware using 100% of your joystick movement, do not pull too much G, do not attempt complex manoeveurs when low on energy, etc. Fine. Realistic flight model is difficult, and should be difficult, that is part of its appeal. However, how difficult, that's the question.

After innumerable spins and hours and hours of practice, I can now barely control La-7, Beaufighter, Bf109 and some Japanese fighters. Meanwhile, P-39/61, P-47, P-51, P-38, Corsair, Hellcat, Spit, Tempest, FW190 (to name just a few http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif) have now become almost impossible to fly.

Whenever I pull nose up (to make an Immelmann turn, for example) more than about 60 degrees while flying a "problem plane", I end up in a spin - on P-39, this is almost invariably a flat spin which is nearly impossible to straighten out. If I try to make a split-S, when I am pointed about -60 degrees down, still flying on my back, I spin again. Of course, I start to hear the "stall noise" much earlier and vortices form on my wingtips. Pulling back less does not seem to have any effect (except that in Immelman turn, I run out of energy even before I have nose 45 degrees up), pulling back more just causes a spin outright.

This irritates me immensely, because I feel that I had finally learned to use the vertical dimension when flying with easier settings. Now I am just a n00b who can do nothing but turn towards enemy. Or, more correctly, not even that. If I do anything more than a slow, lazy curve on the "problematic" planes - spin again. I have tried with varying speeds, with and without flaps, remembering to compensate the propeller torque with the rudder... all to no avail.

Any tips regarding what I should do, how should I practice, or what should I watch out? Despite my current difficulties, I am not going back to simplified flight model - with full realism, the planes' behaviour (those that I can control, at least) just "feels right", and the planes are now more balanced (which is especially good considering network play).

PS. I always thought that early jet planes tended to start to shake or at least become hard to control when flown at too high speeds, before they started coming to pieces. At least in the sim I just get one of my wings ripped off without any warning signs at all... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kelmola
06-12-2006, 09:39 AM
All right,

been playing FB/PF merged for about a year now more or less occasionally. Finally decided to go for full realism where flight model is concerned (engine management and overheat are still on "easy").

OK, I realize that with realistic flight model, you must steer gently. I know, avoid jerky movements, beware using 100% of your joystick movement, do not pull too much G, do not attempt complex manoeveurs when low on energy, etc. Fine. Realistic flight model is difficult, and should be difficult, that is part of its appeal. However, how difficult, that's the question.

After innumerable spins and hours and hours of practice, I can now barely control La-7, Beaufighter, Bf109 and some Japanese fighters. Meanwhile, P-39/61, P-47, P-51, P-38, Corsair, Hellcat, Spit, Tempest, FW190 (to name just a few http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif) have now become almost impossible to fly.

Whenever I pull nose up (to make an Immelmann turn, for example) more than about 60 degrees while flying a "problem plane", I end up in a spin - on P-39, this is almost invariably a flat spin which is nearly impossible to straighten out. If I try to make a split-S, when I am pointed about -60 degrees down, still flying on my back, I spin again. Of course, I start to hear the "stall noise" much earlier and vortices form on my wingtips. Pulling back less does not seem to have any effect (except that in Immelman turn, I run out of energy even before I have nose 45 degrees up), pulling back more just causes a spin outright.

This irritates me immensely, because I feel that I had finally learned to use the vertical dimension when flying with easier settings. Now I am just a n00b who can do nothing but turn towards enemy. Or, more correctly, not even that. If I do anything more than a slow, lazy curve on the "problematic" planes - spin again. I have tried with varying speeds, with and without flaps, remembering to compensate the propeller torque with the rudder... all to no avail.

Any tips regarding what I should do, how should I practice, or what should I watch out? Despite my current difficulties, I am not going back to simplified flight model - with full realism, the planes' behaviour (those that I can control, at least) just "feels right", and the planes are now more balanced (which is especially good considering network play).

PS. I always thought that early jet planes tended to start to shake or at least become hard to control when flown at too high speeds, before they started coming to pieces. At least in the sim I just get one of my wings ripped off without any warning signs at all... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HitchHikerHSDWG
06-12-2006, 09:56 AM
I dont know what to say I've played the game with most of the realistic settings since day one. Granted every once in a while I fly with dummy settings. The P-39, P-51s were hard planes to control anyways. But My advice is to just keep practicing more and then practice again. Practice makes perfect no matter whats happening.

SeaFireLIV
06-12-2006, 10:00 AM
Yes, it is hard to say when I`ve always flown on realistic aircraft settings. What I do is adjust (sioften) my sidewinder settings in control panel so that my responses don`t translate too hard or quick in game. You`ll need to experiment offline several times before you find just the right `feel` that doesn`t have you spinning out every time.

Snootles
06-12-2006, 10:02 AM
Yeah, full real settings are pretty demanding- something the experienced tend to forget.

I had gotten used to full real in Pacific Fighters when I put the game aside for a while. When I came back to it, a load of updates had been released. After installing those, I loaded up and tried to take off. I veered right off the strip and flipped over, exploding. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

The torque had been greatly re-defined in the FM since I last played, and I was completely unprepared. It has taken a bit of practice to get comfortable with it.

Really all you need is lots of experience- then you'll get a feel for the FM.

bogusheadbox
06-12-2006, 11:11 AM
firstly, the p39 has always had a tendancy to enter a flat spin. (mongrel really)

But the issue is to avoid the spin alltogether.

You have mentioned a viariety of aircraft that are very different to each other. Therefore the approach will be different in most cases in order to avoid the spin, or stall.

However, it does sound to me like you need to realise the limit of the plane and hte beffet effect either from sound or from Force Feedback. This will let you know when you are at the limit of the "back stick" potential and your aircraft will enter less than familliar flight characteristics if contiued or pushed past the current flying envelope.

If i was you i would firstly come to term with back stick pressure at different airspeed and revs per plane. That will help you realise where you should back off and where you can push a little more before the spin comes into effect.

Secondly, planes like beau are a bit nasty as the props are not counter rotative. That means both props turn the same direction and a sudden burst of power will throw two engines woth of torque onto the airframe. The key here is smooth and manageable throttle movements. Pleas note that planes like Beau, and A-20 hate being in inverted flight unless you are pulling positive g's

Planes like tempest, are similar to beau, though only having one prop. The power from the prop under accelaration and deceleration is massive with sudden throttle imputs. This will put massive amounts of torque on the airframe under flight giving unfavourable flight charqacteristics without massive rudder input to compensate.

With the tempest in a tight turn, it is sometimes wise to have very little throttle as the gyroscopic effect of the propeller can severely reduce the ability of the airplane to manouver. But gently application of throttle is needed to achieve this. Hope this help.s

HitchHikerHSDWG
06-12-2006, 11:43 AM
Now this may sound a little stupid (it does to me) but as a rule you should also ease of the stick when applying pressure that causes the plane to start vibrating or shaking!

Thats when your about to stall or spin.

This game kicked my butt when I first started playing it. It wouldnt be unlikely to try 10-20 take-offs before actually taking to the air in one piece. But I learned early on from other veterans of the game that flying without full realism on actually hinders your progress rather than helps it. With full settings you forced to learn everything the first time around. And with full settings you can actually use the aircrafts advantages more efficiently even though the disadvantages come at a higher price.

Like I said though practice, practice, practice.

Thats what I always tell people on the BMX freestyle board I frequent too! Practice makes perfect.

Cadet_Bobo
06-12-2006, 12:04 PM
Hi Kelmola. Just a thought...maybe your joystick settings are set to steep, too sharp a curve. I'm talking about the hardware setup/input area in the game, not windows settings. Just a thought.

Bobo

triad773
06-12-2006, 12:53 PM
Hi Kelmola - I have flown this sim for about 2 years and for half of that time I had it on easy settings. Then I wanted to fly on line, but found most people had higher realism settings (much to my consternation! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif)

But I bit the bullet and found that the advice offered here is practical. It certainly took me a while to learn to not spin in the P-51 and others, but M$ Flight sim, or at least my experience in it proved of some value: slow and steady turns, don't lose your head in combat. I still have a time making a decent landing, but as has been said: practice, practice, practice.

It does get better, but takes time. More than I'd have liked, but hey- I can survive missions now (for the most part). Patience and determination are the keys.

Best of luck, and
~S~

Triad

money_money
06-12-2006, 01:06 PM
Isn't Snootles avitar mesmerizing.

<3 $

WTE_Galway
06-12-2006, 05:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cadet_Bobo:
Hi Kelmola. Just a thought...maybe your joystick settings are set to steep, too sharp a curve. I'm talking about the hardware setup/input area in the game, not windows settings. Just a thought.

Bobo </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i think the man has a good point

try setting pitch and yaw to something softer

also .. keep an eye on rudder control Il2 does not have auto rudder like MSFS, a manouvre that is fine with rudder can be an instant spinout with no rudder

caserock138
06-13-2006, 01:42 AM
also remember that some of the time, your craft isn't completely moving the way that your nose is pointing. say you're traveling straight ahead, level, not gaining or losing any altitude...you bank your wings to the right and pull back on the stick to turn. for a few seconds, while you are making progress to the right of the position you were originally at..you are also slightly still travelling in the direction that you formerly would be. sort of like turning on an icy road.

i think that maybe when you're making sharp turns..you're dipping your low wing down too far. as to say, you're bank too far over when you pull the stick back and start your turn. when an aircraft banks sharply and turns, it's being pulled to the ground more quickly by gravity because the wings are lifting in more of a horizontal way than a vertical way...so when you're pulling back in a tight turn with your low wing too far over...you're crossing that spot where you can make a perfectly tight turn without spinning-out. you become off balance where the lift of your wings isn't beating the pull of gravity anymore, and you fall out of the sky. you fall in a circling pattern because of your flight surfaces..just like a maple seed.


try lessening how much you dip your wings when you turn. if the aircraft has a pronounced dihedral in it's wings, it makes it easier to do extreme maneuvers with..but at the same time it makes it easier to slip off balance and start into a spin. those planes you listed have fairly steep dihedrals..that's why i'm thinking this may be the problem!

good luck and let me know how it goes!

also, if you're in a craft with a really wide wing like a P-47, when you make a turn like this..the wings offer a lot of resistance in the direction of you original heading, slowing you down even further. that is why P47 pilots avoid turning battles!

Kelmola
06-13-2006, 02:26 AM
Thanks for the input, guys!

I think that first I will adjust my stick sensitivity. I remember now that I had adjusted the input value to be at full even though the stick was physically not at its extreme position. This was because I suspected that my stick might not always give 100% input even when pulled way back, and since the ability to pull full G's was far too important in unrealistic mode, I decided to "play safe". Of course, this might mean that now I have too narrow a margin where I can manoeveur effectively but not stall outright. Hmm. Maybe I don't even need a full 100% input, since that much will cause a stall anyway in most situations.

I will also try to cut the throttle while turning to lessen the torque.

BTW, I have not played MS sims, so I did not know anything about any auto-rudder. I have used the rudder ever since I began to play FB; it is useful in the easy flight model, too. The thing is, however - now that I think - maybe I use too much rudder. Would explain the tendency spin to the direction of rudder input (as opposed to the direction propeller torque) in Split-S turn.

As regards to specific planes, Beau was surprisingly among those I could control to some extent. I found it actually to be easier to fly in realistic than unrealistic mode http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I'm also thinking that maybe I will first try to master a couple of the planes I find easier, before tackling the tricky ones. At least I will be able to fly something instead of nothing. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SeaFireLIV
06-13-2006, 07:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kelmola:


BTW, I have not played MS sims, so I did not know anything about any auto-rudder. I have used the rudder ever since I began to play FB; it is useful in the easy flight model, too. The thing is, however - now that I think - maybe I use too much rudder. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point. Too much rudder too fast WILL cause spin out.

bogusheadbox
06-13-2006, 09:13 AM
Good luck mate. I had the same problem when i started (and i still suck in many areas).

You may also want to try out some squadrans. The amount you will learn and the fun you have along the way is second to none.

I thought i could fly when i first joined the sqaudran i am in. But quickly realised in such company that i could barely fly.

The kind hearted guys of RAF22&33 took me under their wing and not only taught me how to fly safely, but also effectively, aggressively and defensively.

Not only that, as being a full switch squad, i have learned the importance of team work, and situational awareness.

I am still learning and improving. But in the end it comes down to practice and some helpful tips.

Good luck mate and good fun !!!

sc1949
06-13-2006, 07:09 PM
Get IL2sticks (do a search for it), so you can change settings easily, as changing the settings in game area only works on the first controller if you have more than one joystick, pedals, gamepad etc connected, (I use 4). Il2sticks works a lot better, and you can try various settings quickly, also note that you need to quit il2 between changes so the game recognises them. Hope this helps.

VW-IceFire
06-13-2006, 09:20 PM
This sounds a bit like a joystick issue...maybe the curve is too sharp as others have said. Or there is another configuration problem.

Open the config.ini file and find the Joystick input section (sorry for being vague right now).

You should see a default row of numbers that look like this:

X 0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0

Now...there is sometimes an unusual problem where the input curves get a little whacked out and they look like this:

X 0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100

Notice that the 0 is missing at the end. Missing that 0 is nasty...it screws everything up with regards to control sensitivity. SO...check on that. Could be on X, Y and/or Z axis.

J_Weaver
06-13-2006, 09:31 PM
Although I've been around since day one I'm just now begining to venture into the full realism settings. One thing that I quickly noticed is that rudder pedals are all but a must. I didn't realize this until I flew the P-80 and Me-262. By just using the rocker on my X-45 I find it all but impossible to make smooth rudder imputs.