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na85
11-26-2007, 09:19 PM
What's the difference between the different Bf109 G series ingame?

na85
11-26-2007, 09:19 PM
What's the difference between the different Bf109 G series ingame?

Stiletto-
11-26-2007, 09:43 PM
In game? There are a few differences.. I'm not an expert by any means so my descriptions might be a little off but I believe the G-2 version is alot more like the F models.. It's lighter than the other G models which helps it turn better than most other models as well as a very good rate of climb, better than some of the newer models and considering that it's a 1942 model, it's a great competitor in a comparable plane set and I think many would regard this as the 109's peak.

I believe with the G6 models, they were trying to get alot of things ironed out on the assembly line and things more efficient to build and more consistant from plane to plane. These models (in game) are definatley the weakest of the G or later series and are best avoided if possible. The G6 Late is slightly better but not alot.

The later G models, the G-10 G-14 and G-6AS were vast improvements over the G6 variants and had great engine boosting for War Emergency Power, these will exceed the G2 in climb rate and are alot quicker in a straight line.

Some are better at medium altitude and some are better at extreme altitudes I forget exactly what ones, somebody should go into more detail than what I can give as I am no expert on these planes..

Main thing is that the G6 and G6-late are the doggiest of the bunch and should be avoided if other models are available, but it depends on what you are particularly trying to do where individual models will be slightly better than other ones.

As far as late war plane sets, I prefer the K, because it is the best climber (in game), it can reel in P-51's at 7000 meters.

na85
11-26-2007, 10:49 PM
Awesome, thanks.

I think I read here some time ago that either the G-10 or the G-14 was porked. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

Ratsack
11-26-2007, 11:09 PM
The Gustav in a nutshell, subject to corrections and amendments by the Messerschmitt-learned.

The Gustav was based closely on the Bf 109 F-4 airframe. You will note that they are externally nearly identical. The main difference was the engine. The Gustav used the more powerful DB 605 A motor, which conferred better high altitude performance and a top speed on the order of 400-410 mph. The G series was designed to come in pressurized and non-pressurized variants that were otherwise identical. These were the odd and even-numbered sub-variants respectively. This means that the Bf 109 G-1 and G-2 were essentially the same plane, except that the G-1 was pressurized. We don't have any of the pressurized versions in the game, and the un-pressurized ones were far more common in any event.

The G-2 was the first of the G series to be delivered (March 1942, I think).

The G-6 was pretty much the same as the G-2, except it had bigger wheels for operating from rough fields, and it carried the MG131 machine guns in the fuselage. The breeches and ammo feeds of these produce the bumps in front of the cockpit.

However, the larger tail wheel meant that it could not retract. This cost about 8 10 mph in drag. The G-6 also carried extra radio and nav gear, so it was a bit heavier. As a consequence its performance was not quite as good as the G-2's, but it was a more capable warplane. You'll find no shortage of players here who will assert that the G-6 in the game is under done. I suspect they're right.

The G-6 late was not a new sub type, it just represents the Gustav in one of its most numerous configurations, with the Erla-built canopy, and Galland armoured glass head rest, and the taller wooden tail fin. Performance is just about identical to the G-6, in the game.

In reality, around September 1943 the Germans cleared the DB 605 A to run at 1.42 ATA boost (previously it had been limited to 1.3 ATA). I would suppose (although I have no data to support this supposition), that the increase in power would have off set the effects of loading up the G-6 with the bigger wheels, the MG131s etc., etc....

This increase in power is not modelled in the game.

The Bf 109 G-6/AS is the designation of the G-6 variant equipped with the DB 605 AS engine. This motor had a bigger supercharger that provided more power at high altitude. It also had a much higher critical altitude (about 29,000 feet, by the look of the scan Luftluuver posted the other day). It was the high altitude version of the G-6, and it was introduced some time between March and May 1944. Some AS aircraft were retrofitted G-6s. Such aircraft received the new engine, with its bigger oil cooler and the new cowling, the Erla hood, and a metal fin extension that is visually nearly identical to the tall wooden fin (they can be distinguished photographically by a slightly different rudder shape).

This machine bears little resemblance to the Bf 109 G-6/AS we have in the game. More on this in a tic.

The Bf 109 G-14 was an attempt to simplify the production of the Gustav. There were lots of options and kits and engine types and the G-14 was meant to rationalize production by settling on a standard type. It was meant to have:

the Erla canopy and Galland panzerglas;
the tall fin; and
the DB 605 AM engine.

The M' suffix denotes the water methanol power boost system (MW-50) that the Germans used. This allowed the engine to run at increased boosts at all altitudes up to critical altitude. Such planes were faster than the white-bread G-6, but lacked the altitude performance of the AS variant. It was introduced in mid 1944. Weapons options were the same as for the G-6, but apparently the Hungarian built version of the G-14 (on which the in-game version is based) carried the 30 mm MK108 cannon in the engine.

Some G-14s used the DB 605 ASM engine, which was basically the AS engine with MW-50. These aircraft were designated G-14/AS, and the Bf 109 G-6/AS we have in the game is really one of these.

The G-10 was delayed because the engine intended for it the new DB 605 D was not yet available. As a result, the G-14 preceded it into production. Like the G-6/AS, many G-10s were older airframes rebuilt to G-10 standard, which included:

the Erla canopy and Galland panzerglas;
the tall fin; and
the DB 605 D engine.

Many G-10s also had a long-stroke tail wheel, used in an attempt to improve ground handling by lowering the nose angle. Some also had the much wider main wheels, too (like the G-14 in-game). I think some also used DB 605 ASM engines, too.

(Just to complete the list, the G-8 was a reconaisance version, and the G-12 was the two-seat trainer. The G-5 was the last of Gustavs pressurized off the production line, so there were no more odd-numbered sub-variants after the G-5.)

The K-4 is the refined Gustav with the DB 605 D engine.

cheers,
Ratsack

na85
11-26-2007, 11:19 PM
Thanks! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

dieg777
11-27-2007, 12:52 AM
My experiences of the Gustav in game-

G2 advantages-small window frames, great plane probably best all rounder, good rate of climb and turn
disadvantages- horrible rear view
G6 advantages has smaller window panes so good forward vision
disadvantages - no boost , horrible rear view, heavier than G2 so has performance hit
G6 Late - as G6 above but has erla type cocckpit so thicker front frames but better
rear view
G6 A/s has boost so performace is increased- best of the G6 models and some prefer it to later models as it has 20mm cannon option and not restricted to 30mm

G10 best balanced of the 30mm models, fast and some folks favourite 109

G14 heavier than G10 so performance suffers

K4 heavier than G - fast, especially in climb but suffers in dives and turns

hope this helps

TheGozr
11-27-2007, 01:14 AM
Many earlier aircrafts models could climb better than their late models.. better climbing doesn't mean faster.. There is a huge misconception about this subject in this forum and among simmers.

Xiolablu3
11-27-2007, 08:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by na85:
Awesome, thanks.

I think I read here some time ago that either the G-10 or the G-14 was porked. Can anyone confirm or deny this? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can find a person here who think every single plane in the sim is porked in one way or another.

Also you can find whiners about every other plane.

It all depends on where their biases lie.


For the 109 series, basically all seem pretty well modelled except the turn on the 109G6. I believe its slightly worse than the real thing.

The Bf109 suffered worse than many other planes with 'weight creep' because it was designed to be as small as possible to get the most out of whatever engine was available, and it worked, the Me109 was generally faster than the Spitfire (its nemesis and close rival) on the same power, thanks to its slimmer design and smaller wings. Less drag.

The other side of this is that as the Me109 got heavier and heavier it's small size made the weight gain even worse. The Gustavs lost a lot of their manouverability with the extra weight.

If any 109's are porked, then it will be the G6 version that people were talking about, but remember that it was never as manouverable or as nice a aircraft to fly as the earlier models :-

Gunther Rall states :-

'And when Crete was finished we went back to Romania, and there we got a new airplane. It was the 109 F. This was my beloved aircraft. It was the first aircraft with the round wing tips, no struts in the back, 605 engine (ed. DB 601), excellent, and not too overloaded. You know, later on they put in this, and put in this, and put in this. The aircraft became heavier, but not this one. The F was my ideal aircraft.'

Suggests that the F4 model was the high point of the Bf109 series, and the figures tend to agree. The G2 was very similar to the F4, this period, around late '41, '42 was when the Me109 was at its peak. very much like the peak of the Spitfire mkIXb(merlin 66)/mkXIV in the period of '43/'44.

Schwarz.13
11-27-2007, 04:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ratsack:
The Gustav in a nutshell, subject to corrections and amendments by the Messerschmitt-learned...The K-4 is the refined Gustav with the DB 605 D engine.

cheers,
Ratsack </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Ratsack - very informative post and cleared up a few things i wasn't sure about with reagrds to the later Gustavs!

Do you or anyone else know anything about the fuel used? I know alot of Friedrichs/Gustavs used '87 Octane' but that other (later?) models used a different improved fuel. Or was '87 Octane' the improved one?

Also what were the improvements introduced with the DB605D??? and were the fuel types interchangeable with the different engines???

luftluuver
11-27-2007, 04:51 PM
http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/techref/systems/engine/as_vs_d/as_vs_d.htm
http://www.axiomdigital.com/db605.htm
using Google search

Even Wiki can be useful
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_109#Bf_109G_.22Gustav.22

Ratsack
11-27-2007, 07:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Schwarz.13:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ratsack:
The Gustav in a nutshell, subject to corrections and amendments by the Messerschmitt-learned...The K-4 is the refined Gustav with the DB 605 D engine.

cheers,
Ratsack </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Ratsack - very informative post and cleared up a few things i wasn't sure about with reagrds to the later Gustavs!

Do you or anyone else know anything about the fuel used? I know alot of Friedrichs/Gustavs used '87 Octane' but that other (later?) models used a different improved fuel. Or was '87 Octane' the improved one?

Also what were the improvements introduced with the DB605D??? and were the fuel types interchangeable with the different engines??? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You really need Butch2k for discussions of Messerschmitt engines. However, very broadly speaking, most Bf 109s ran on 87 octane juice. This fuel also had the German designation 'B4'.

The other type of fuel in widespread use was 'C3', or 96 octane.

NOTE WELL: the German octane rating system was not the same as that used by the Allies, so the numbers are not directly comparable. It is a common mistake to suppose that the Germans were incapable of producing high-octane juice because their 'high-grade' fuel (C3) was 'only' 96 octane. This belief is mistaken because the C3 fuel was roughly equivalent to Allied 100/130 or 100/144 avgas. You will notes to this effect on some American tests of Fw 190s on Spitfire Performance.

On the subject of 109s and fuel, the versions powered by the DB 601N motor all used C3 fuel. The types in question therefore are:

* Bf 109 E-4N, E-7N
* Bf 109 F-1, F-2.


Also, when they added MW-50 to the DB 605 A engine (i.e., DB 605 AM), they initially used C3 fuel. I think (and one of the 109 experts here could clear this up) that they later managed to run MW-50 using B4 fuel.

Finally, some versions of the K used C3 fuel, too.

However, the vast majority of 109s ran on plain old B4.

cheers,
Ratsack

Manu-6S
11-28-2007, 12:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by na85:
I think I read here some time ago that either the G-10 or the G-14 was porked. Can anyone confirm or deny this? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not the Gustav porked itself, but the way the control forces are simulated (because fatigue it's not modelled in IL2).

At 450km/h the Gustav's elevator tend to became useless and you have to help yourself with trim. In RL the elevators weren't useless (inefficient) but only stiffer: with the power of your arms (both) you could still pull the stick to its max range... not so in IL2.

M_Gunz
11-28-2007, 01:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by na85:
What's the difference between the different Bf109 G series ingame? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Short answer:

Armament, armor, engine, and what increasing those does to performance.