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View Full Version : Question to Oleg : K-14 gyro gunsight model : Historical or Simplified ?



03-01-2004, 01:13 PM
Oleg, please answer this question :

what will K-14 gunsight model in late western allied planes like ?

Will pilot have to adjust in flight, manually :

-wingspan of target a/c first (Me 109, FW 190, Ju 88, FW 200, He 177)
-size of aiming reticle to match target a/c span during aim, to get range

Also, will the time delay (1-2 sec) required for the simple compute mechanism of the gunsight, once target is aquired, modelled before perfect lead is given ?

I would suggest the existing Lofte7 bombsight controls to be assigned to the gunsight, and it would be used during flight.

As an Axis flyier, I dont have any trouble the Allies getting this cool stuff for themselves, but I would like they would get the historical one, with the need for adjustments, not a hyper-modern laser rangefinding, fully automatic one the F-15 Eagle..

The real one needed manual adjustments in order to work. Will it be so in Il-2 ?

Just curious what to except.

03-01-2004, 01:13 PM
Oleg, please answer this question :

what will K-14 gunsight model in late western allied planes like ?

Will pilot have to adjust in flight, manually :

-wingspan of target a/c first (Me 109, FW 190, Ju 88, FW 200, He 177)
-size of aiming reticle to match target a/c span during aim, to get range

Also, will the time delay (1-2 sec) required for the simple compute mechanism of the gunsight, once target is aquired, modelled before perfect lead is given ?

I would suggest the existing Lofte7 bombsight controls to be assigned to the gunsight, and it would be used during flight.

As an Axis flyier, I dont have any trouble the Allies getting this cool stuff for themselves, but I would like they would get the historical one, with the need for adjustments, not a hyper-modern laser rangefinding, fully automatic one the F-15 Eagle..

The real one needed manual adjustments in order to work. Will it be so in Il-2 ?

Just curious what to except.

Bearcat99
03-01-2004, 02:10 PM
I have heard through the grapevine that it is better than in any othe sim that has it modeled. Use your imagination..... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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BuzzU
03-01-2004, 02:27 PM
While we're getting what the P-51 should have. How about the G-suit too? We need all the advantages the real P-51 had, if we're going to have any chance against the Ta152.

Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Jamnut/clark19.jpg

Cardinal25
03-01-2004, 02:54 PM
The TA isn't going to be an uber plane.

You remember the D9 getting the "uber" tag before FB? It is a good plane but not uber.

-----------------------------
CWoS. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/index.php)

92nd Fighter Group (http://www.92ndfg.com)

7./JG77 (http://www.7jg77.com)

BuzzU
03-01-2004, 03:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cardinal25:
The TA isn't going to be an uber plane.

You remember the D9 getting the "uber" tag before FB? It is a good plane but not uber.

-----------------------------
_http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/index.php_

_http://www.92ndfg.com_

_http://www.7jg77.com_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see no advantage a P-51 would have over the Ta152. It will take some fancy moves to get one off your six, and with the big guns it has, you don't have much time to do it. Not blacking out as bad would help.

Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Jamnut/clark19.jpg

WhiskeyRiver
03-01-2004, 10:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VO101_Kurfurst:
Oleg, please answer this question :

what will K-14 gunsight model in late western allied planes like ?

Will pilot have to adjust in flight, manually :

-wingspan of target a/c first (Me 109, FW 190, Ju 88, FW 200, He 177)
-size of aiming reticle to match target a/c span during aim, to get range

Also, will the time delay (1-2 sec) required for the simple compute mechanism of the gunsight, once target is aquired, modelled before perfect lead is given ?

I would suggest the existing Lofte7 bombsight controls to be assigned to the gunsight, and it would be used during flight.

As an Axis flyier, I dont have any trouble the Allies getting this cool stuff for themselves, but I would like they would get the historical one, with the need for adjustments, not a hyper-modern laser rangefinding, fully automatic one the F-15 Eagle..

The real one needed manual adjustments in order to work. Will it be so in Il-2 ?

Just curious what to except.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The F-15 uses radar ranging not laser for the gunsight

To kill me you've got to hit the heart Ramon--Clint F*cking Eastwood

03-02-2004, 08:09 AM
Oleg, could you comment please?

Those who have ntohing on-topic to add, please stay out.

starfighter1
03-02-2004, 08:47 AM
hi,
here some links:a lot is simplified in this PC-sim, even also the gunsight view in construction and in the important hight of the revi or gyroscope nearly in all planes in this main bug camera view system of the game.
Indeed: we are all virtual gnomish pilots
bad examples:FW-190/P-51/P-47 ...

http://paparomeo.freeyellow.com/sighttable.html

http://www.eichhorn.ws/assets/images/thunderbird.gif

Oleg_Maddox
03-02-2004, 10:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VO101_Kurfurst:
Oleg, please answer this question :

what will K-14 gunsight model in late western allied planes like ?

Will pilot have to adjust in flight, manually :

-wingspan of target a/c first (Me 109, FW 190, Ju 88, FW 200, He 177)
-size of aiming reticle to match target a/c span during aim, to get range

Also, will the time delay (1-2 sec) required for the simple compute mechanism of the gunsight, once target is aquired, modelled before perfect lead is given ?

I would suggest the existing Lofte7 bombsight controls to be assigned to the gunsight, and it would be used during flight.

As an Axis flyier, I dont have any trouble the Allies getting this cool stuff for themselves, but I would like they would get the historical one, with the need for adjustments, not a hyper-modern laser rangefinding, fully automatic one the F-15 Eagle..

The real one needed manual adjustments in order to work. Will it be so in Il-2 ?

Just curious what to except.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From AEP readme

Using the K-14 gunsight

Use the 'Toggle Sight Mode (Auto)' button to switch gunsight mode. Use the 'Adjust Sight Control to Right' and 'Adjust Sight Control to Left' buttons to select the target aircraft type. Use the 'Increase Sight Distance' and 'Decrease Sight Distance' buttons to adjust the sight circle for the target aircraft to fit in it. Track the target aircraft for at least 2 seconds to maintain correct lead.


PS. The messages of selected items (ie FW200, Me109, etc) you will see on the screen (att he same position where all engine and bombsights messages of Fb)

In modeling we used orignial K14 manual.

Oleg_Maddox
03-02-2004, 10:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by starfighter1:
hi,
here some links:a lot is simplified in this PC-sim, even also the gunsight view in construction and in the important hight of the revi or gyroscope nearly in all planes in this main bug camera view system of the game.
Indeed: we are all virtual gnomish pilots
bad examples:FW-190/P-51/P-47 ...

http://paparomeo.freeyellow.com/sighttable.html

http://www.eichhorn.ws/assets/images/thunderbird.gif&lt;HR&gt;&lt;/BLOCKQUOTE&gt; (http://www.eichhorn.ws/assets/images/thunderbird.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>)

Starfighter1,

I think you didn't saw yet K14 gunsight....
And about other I think you don't have enough knowledge that to say us here such things.
And especially about camera view system. You mix here something totally wrong.
Also could you post any _photo_ of K-14 isntalled in modelled types of P-47D in our sim?
Can you post a photo or real document description of K-14 on P-38L for example? Istead I have other USAAF document that tells me absolutely other things.
I don't trust internet sources too much. Ofter there the source contains the info that doesn't match the real documents.

crazyivan1970
03-02-2004, 10:29 AM
Nice... now i`ll get load of 50 cals fired with precision up my LW butt http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Mommy!!!

V!
Regards,

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VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Gunner_361st
03-02-2004, 10:32 AM
I think another good idea for an Allied gun sight would be a piece of gum you could stick to your windscreen, in true Gabby Gabrenski fashion. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The ability to turn off tracers would be peachy too, but... not my desicion, just a hope. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Captain Gunner of the 361st vFG

http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1039.jpg

JG26Red
03-02-2004, 10:36 AM
iam drawing a blank, how exactly will this work? more your sight for you to tell you where to shot, or is it just very accurate?

Oleg_Maddox
03-02-2004, 10:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG26Red:
iam drawing a blank, how exactly will this work? more your sight for you to tell you where to shot, or is it just very accurate?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just wait for AEP.

Magister__Ludi
03-02-2004, 10:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:

From AEP readme

Using the K-14 gunsight

Use the 'Toggle Sight Mode (Auto)' button to switch gunsight mode. Use the 'Adjust Sight Control to Right' and 'Adjust Sight Control to Left' buttons to select the target aircraft type. Use the 'Increase Sight Distance' and 'Decrease Sight Distance' buttons to adjust the sight circle for the target aircraft to fit in it. Track the target aircraft for at least 2 seconds to maintain correct lead.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


If the stabilizing lag of the gyros is there too then kudos to your team http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

03-02-2004, 11:57 AM
Thank you for the answer Oleg, thanks for giving us the full historical model! Thank you again!

PS: it was stupid from me to expect a simplified model from Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG26Red:
iam drawing a blank, how exactly will this work? more your sight for you to tell you where to shot, or is it just very accurate?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It will help your aim in turns. If correctly set up, the gunsight will calculate for you where exactly you need to aim, how much lead you need to use to hit, for example, a hard turning 109 in front of you.

The major difference will be that you will no longer aim in front of your target. You will just keep the sight on him (easy to say!), the lead computer will do the rest.. well, ALMOST.

The sigh works on the principle of comparing range of target and change of direction of your plane. From that, it can calculate the speed of target, and how much time it needs to hit him, in other words, how much lead is required.

Basically you first select the type of aircraft you are flying against. More precisly, its size of wingspan.

Then you will have to align the gun circle on the enemy aircraft, and use the sight controls so that the aiming circle would grow or shring - so that the aircraft`s wings would fit exactly into the circle.We know the exact wingspan dimensions. From that, range to target is calculated easily... say if a 10m wing fits right into a 4mm ring, then range must be 200meters.. you will have to do this adjustment constantly if the target gets farther or comes nearer to get accurate range.

Meanwhile, you keep the sight right on the enemy aircraft, following him.

There`s also a gyroscope in your plane. It tells how fast your aircraft turns. If you keep the gunsight on target, your a/c will turn the same deg/sec as the enemy.. the range is now known. From that, simple math gives the speed of enemy.. the own gun ballistics, how much time needed for bullet to reach, say, 200m, is known.. say .3 sec. The sight must predict where the enemy a/c, 200m away will be in .3 seconds. It calculates that, and the sight circle will move to that point. You keep the circle on the enemy, and fire. If he does not do any violent manouvers in the menawhile, he will be hit, and you dont have to bothet about applying lead. But the calculation tooks a while, about 2secs.. it will be hard to keep the sight over the enemy for 2-3 secs time.

JG26Red
03-02-2004, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:
&lt;BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"&gt;&lt;font size="-1"&gt;quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;HR&gt;Originally posted by JG26Red:
iam drawing a blank, how exactly will this work? more your sight for you to tell you where to shot, or is it just very accurate?&lt;HR&gt;&lt;/BLOCKQUOTE&gt;

Just wait for AEP.

lol, ok... i might get shot down more as iam a dedicated FW flyer... maybe that new DM will help from my wings falling off after 2 .50 hits... lol...

JG26Red
03-02-2004, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by VO101_Kurfurst:
Thank you for the answer Oleg, thanks for giving us the full historical model! Thank you again!

PS: it was stupid from me to expect a simplified model from Maddox :hammer: :bow:


&lt;BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"&gt;&lt;font size="-1"&gt;quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;HR&gt;Originally posted by JG26Red:
iam drawing a blank, how exactly will this work? more your sight for you to tell you where to shot, or is it just very accurate?&lt;HR&gt;&lt;/BLOCKQUOTE&gt;

It will help your aim in turns. If correctly set up, the gunsight will calculate for you where exactly you need to aim, how much lead you need to use to hit, for example, a hard turning 109 in front of you.

The major difference will be that you will no longer aim in front of your target. You will just keep the sight on him (easy to say!), the lead computer will do the rest.. well, ALMOST.

The sigh works on the principle of comparing range of target and change of direction of your plane. From that, it can calculate the speed of target, and how much time it needs to hit him, in other words, how much lead is required.

Basically you first select the type of aircraft you are flying against. More precisly, its size of wingspan.

Then you will have to align the gun circle on the enemy aircraft, and use the sight controls so that the aiming circle would grow or shring - so that the aircraft`s wings would fit exactly into the circle.We know the exact wingspan dimensions. From that, range to target is calculated easily... say if a 10m wing fits right into a 4mm ring, then range must be 200meters.. you will have to do this adjustment constantly if the target gets farther or comes nearer to get accurate range.

Meanwhile, you keep the sight right on the enemy aircraft, following him.

There`s also a gyroscope in your plane. It tells how fast your aircraft turns. If you keep the gunsight on target, your a/c will turn the same deg/sec as the enemy.. the range is now known. From that, simple math gives the speed of enemy.. the own gun ballistics, how much time needed for bullet to reach, say, 200m, is known.. say .3 sec. The sight must predict where the enemy a/c, 200m away will be in .3 seconds. It calculates that, and the sight circle will move to that point. You keep the circle on the enemy, and fire. If he does not do any violent manouvers in the menawhile, he will be hit, and you dont have to bothet about applying lead. But the calculation tooks a while, about 2secs.. it will be hard to keep the sight over the enemy for 2-3 secs time.

wow, thats neat... too bad i wont ever use it..

03-02-2004, 01:42 PM
JG26Red, The LW also developed it`s own gyroscopic gunsight : The Zeiss EZ 42 Adler. It was capable of the same as Allied sights, but saw only limited service, IIRC on Me 262, and FW 190D/Ta152.

But as I said, it won`t be that easy to use in practice, it needs constant adjustments (less of a problem), AND you have to keep it on the target for about 2 secs... frankly, I cant remember I could ever trace a plane in turnfight for 2 whole secs, usually I only get snapshot opportunities. Frankly, I doubt it will be of any use on DF servers vs. fighters, action is too fast there.. more useful vs. unaware/bounced fighters or especially vs. bomber types.

Just try to mimic the use of it under current circumstances, you will see.

PzKpfw
03-02-2004, 02:08 PM
The LW developed their own gyro GS the EZ 42 but it was never used widespread and infact, was usualy improperly installed and either removed and replaced with a standard Revi or used as a fixed sight.

Oskar Romm did get a fully functional EZ 42 in his Fw 190D-9:

In Febuary, 1945, we moved to Prenzlau near Berlin and I was given full command of IV Gruppe. My command flight recieved the new Focke-Wulf Fw 190D-9 which was and is the fastest prop-driven aircraft I have ever flown.

It was supplied with a gyrostabilized EZ 42 reflector gunsight and with this sight I found I could hit the cockpit of a Russian DB-7 from a very great distance.

Regards, John Waters

---------
Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

------
"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

Fillmore
03-02-2004, 02:18 PM
If I were using the gunsight myself I would simply preload it for the range that my convergence is set for and use my brain to adjust lead from there.

JG26Red
03-02-2004, 02:19 PM
"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.


errr.. i always thought he was a tad bit off the edge, but with that statement i know totally now.. lol

starfighter1
04-25-2004, 04:30 AM
hi,
sorry my late answer here:
re to many discussions with professionals of rebuilding planes and sitting in well restaurated WW II warbirds ..
sorry the camera view system might be a crompromise to virtual pilots in this PC-game, but the pilots eyes and view of hight in original planes is far away from this in the designed camera view system in game.
In most of the planes the virtual pilot is sitting as a gnomish pilot and in many designs the gunsight construction is too low, beside some overframed struts and bars.
Anyway ..
So dear Mr. Maddox if You and Your designers are looking for future progress(flexible camera view and a way to adjust the pilots seat compare to gunsight ..) and better design have a look to some new restauration projects (beside to Your so called best original blue prints)and take a seat in one of the planes even with a well real mounted gunsight /gyroscope.
I'm doing this nearly 1 1/2 times more than Your life time.

by the way: a restaurator mailed me, that the FW 190- forward view in game is far away from real and this is the truth ..everyone know this, even the developers ..or do they like to talk russian winternight stories ?
so what are they talking here arround ?
Maybe 'Igor and Jonny Joystic' believe this as a promotion story..

my two cents to this at all.... and end



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by starfighter1:
hi,
here some links:a lot is simplified in this PC-sim, even also the gunsight view in construction and in the important hight of the revi or gyroscope nearly in all planes in this main bug camera view system of the game.
Indeed: we are all virtual gnomish pilots
bad examples:FW-190/P-51/P-47 ...

http://paparomeo.freeyellow.com/sighttable.html

http://www.eichhorn.ws/assets/images/thunderbird.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Starfighter1,

I think you didn't saw yet K14 gunsight....
And about other I think you don't have enough knowledge that to say us here such things.
And especially about camera view system. You mix here something totally wrong.
Also could you post any _photo_ of K-14 isntalled in modelled types of P-47D in our sim?
Can you post a photo or real document description of K-14 on P-38L for example? Istead I have other USAAF document that tells me absolutely other things.
I don't trust internet sources too much. Ofter there the source contains the info that doesn't match the real documents.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.eichhorn.ws/assets/images/thunderbird.gif

Chuck_Older
04-25-2004, 11:31 AM
When you type in "restaurator", did you mean, "restorer"?!? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

starfighter1
04-25-2004, 03:17 PM
hi,
indeed..'restorer'
'a restaurator' is a 'conservator'



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
When you type in "restaurator", did you mean, "restorer"?!? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.eichhorn.ws/assets/images/thunderbird.gif

starfighter1
04-25-2004, 03:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
When you type in "restaurator", did you mean, "restorer"?!? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.eichhorn.ws/assets/images/thunderbird.gif