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View Full Version : KMS TIRPITZ attacked by Soviet submarine K-21 (real)



WereSnowleopard
04-27-2005, 04:45 PM
I didn't know that but just wonder if anyone of you already knew?

"05 July 1942: At 1100, Tirpitz, Scheer, Hipper, the destroyers Friedrich Ihn, Richard Beitzen, Z-24, Z-27, Z-28, Z-29, Z-30, and the torpedo boats T-7 and T-15 leave Altenfiord. The Soviet submarine K-21 attacks Tirpitz with torpedoes at 1702, but obtains no hits. At 2130 the Germans cancel their mission and return home. Finally the German battle group does not engage any enemy ships, but the Luftwaffe and the U-boats manage to sink 22 merchantmen which carry 430 tanks, 210 planes and 3,350 vehicles."
http://www.kbismarck.com/tirpitz.html

"Probably the most dramatic moment in their service careers during the war came in the attack by K-21 on the German battleship Tirpitz. K-21 was part of a five submarine Soviet screening force for convoys PQ17 and QP13. In July 1942 Tirpitz, along with Admral Scheer, Prinz Eugen seven destroyers and two torpedo boats sailed to intercept PQ17, which due to this threat prematurely scattered and was subsequently massacred by German U-Boats and aircraft. K-21 sighted the German force and attacked the Tirpitz at the entrance of Altafjord on July 5, 1942. K-21 fired four torpedoes and then went deep to avoid counterattack from the numerous destroyers. The hydrophone operator thought he heard two explosions. After an hour K-21 went up and finding the sea vacant, surfaced to report a successful attack on the Tirpitz. Another Soviet source reported five explosions. However, the first that the German command knew of the attack was when they intercepted the report of K-21. No German ship had been hit. The sound that had been interpreted as explosions, probably was the sound created by tons of seawater hitting the rudder of Tirpitz as she changed courses in a zig-zag pattern."
http://www.steelnavy.com/CombrigK21.htm

Regards
Snowleopard

FB_Macki
04-27-2005, 05:47 PM
The Soviet submarine K-21 attacks Tirpitz with torpedoes at 1702, but obtains no hits.

Then why Tirpitz had to return and dock at Kiel, if there were no hits at all?
"21 July - 2 August 1941: Inside Dock C at Deutsche Werke Kiel.
2 August - 17 September 1941: At Kiel."
http://www.kbismarck.com/tirpitz.html


However, the first that the German command knew of the attack was when they intercepted the report of K-21.

Does it mean that the report from K-21 wasn't encrypted http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif


The sound that had been interpreted as explosions, probably was the sound created by tons of seawater hitting the rudder of Tirpitz as she changed courses in a zig-zag pattern.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

WereSnowleopard
04-27-2005, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by FB_Macki:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> The Soviet submarine K-21 attacks Tirpitz with torpedoes at 1702, but obtains no hits.

Then why Tirpitz had to return and dock at Kiel, if there were no hits at all http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
"21 July - 2 August 1941: Inside Dock C at Deutsche Werke Kiel.
2 August - 17 September 1941: At Kiel."
<A HREF="http://www.kbismarck.com/tirpitz.html" TARGET=_blank>http:/
/www.kbismarck.com/tirpitz.html</A> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

See first article "At 2130 the Germans cancel their mission and return home"

and about no hit...maybe missed due to zip-zap (see second article) "The sound that had been interpreted as explosions, probably was the sound created by tons of seawater hitting the rudder of Tirpitz as she changed courses in a zig-zag pattern."

alanschu
04-27-2005, 05:54 PM
Probably don't want to hang around when something that can easily cripple/destroy you is around, especially when you can't really do anything back to it.

FB_Macki
04-27-2005, 06:07 PM
See first article "At 2130 the Germans cancel their mission and return home"

So why the German battle group had to cancel?

FB_Macki
04-27-2005, 06:25 PM
Guys, my advice - read the book "Requiem to the Convoy PQ-17" by Piqule V.S. - that history fact is fully described in it.

WereSnowleopard
04-27-2005, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by FB_Macki:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> See first article "At 2130 the Germans cancel their mission and return home"

So why the German battle group had to cancel? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

See top of my message "I didn't know that but just wonder if anyone of you already knew?" I found it out about 10 mins before post it. I didn't know Tirpitz take action as I only knew is hide out in harbor and keep attack by RAF bombers. Of course I do know about PQ17 because of read Luftwaffe book about it. If I must find fact then I have to go to bookstore to get book to read about it. Okay. I just post it to ask if experts is here and we may enjoy discuss about it. I guess I will have book by Sunday or may order book from amazon.com. I can not trust most of websites with articles so I must depend on high reliable to make sure it is fact. Okay? Have good day.

Regards
Snowleoaprd

FB_Macki
04-28-2005, 04:26 AM
Okay, no problem. I understand you.

The other historical fact is that the First Sea Lord and Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Sir Dudley Pound (aka "Dudley, don't do it") ordered the escort of the Convoy PQ-17 to leave them and return home as quickly as they could when he found out that the German battle group had left Altenfiord and took course to approach the Convoy.

TheRealWulfmann
04-28-2005, 12:12 PM
Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!

Try the fact the Tirpitz was in Kiel in 1941 and the attack on PQ17 was in 1942. The Tirpitz sailed for Norway on January 14, 1942 and never returned to Germany again.
The Russian claim of launching torpedoes against the Tirpitz was unknown to the Germans until they heard about it later. It occurred as the battle group left port and had nothing to do with recalling the ships. When the Germans became aware they had been spotted and the convoy had dispersed, there was both the fear of air attacks and the assumption aircraft and U-boats were better suited to track down the many separated allied merchant ships.
This fantasy that the Russians had anything to do with the withdrawal is is sad.
First, the Soviets constantly rewrote their own history to suit what ever they felt and with no check they can make up any story and destroy all records to disagree. The Germans had their bad points but pretending the Tirpitz was not hit and damaged was not in charactor and their detailed records often came back to haunt them on many matters.
Sorry, there was never a succesful attack by the Soviet submarine and while I have no reason to disbelieve the K-21 making an attack (that failed) it would not surprise me to find out that was not true either as that sort of misinformation was typical of the great Soviet republic.
Please!!!!!!!!!
There is plenty of research on this subject so it should not be a surprise regarding the "real" facts
Wulfmann

TheRealWulfmann
04-28-2005, 12:23 PM
I might add that I keep a fairly extensive library on such matters. I recommend the 3 book series "Battleships" by Grazke and Dulin JR. This is considered the ultimate for modern battleships and you see these guys on the history channel being quoted.
There is also a new series from Germany detailing each class of ship and in both cases you will learn every incident, even minor ones, about the great battleships built from 1933 on from the above books
On a similar subject the book S-Boote also available at Amazon.com is a great read on the Schnellbooten and much more reasonably priced than the 3 battleship books (over $100.00 each!! Yikes, glad I bought them over fifteen years ago when they were but a meager $50.00 each!!)
Wulfmann

FB_Macki
04-28-2005, 01:26 PM
Sorry, wrong paste http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif But of course 1942!!! Thnx for remind http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

"08 July 1942: The Fleet anchors at Narvik.
23 October 1942: Tirpitz departs Bogenfjord in Narvik and sails to Trondheim for a refit."

archer49d
04-28-2005, 01:42 PM
Didn't the Soviets score the biggest kill (in terms of lives lost) against the Germans on the Baltic?

FB_Macki
04-28-2005, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by TheRealWulfmann:
Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!

Try the fact the Tirpitz was in Kiel in 1941 and the attack on PQ17 was in 1942. The Tirpitz sailed for Norway on January 14, 1942 and never returned to Germany again...
There is plenty of research on this subject so it should not be a surprise regarding the "real" facts
Wulfmann

Exactly!!! Admiral Otto Schniewind ordered his officers rewrite the log-book, cause he had no idea how to explain the damage caused by K-21's torpedos (sub came back home safely). Of course he would never own himself beaten, because such fact could put the end to the Grossadmiral Raeder's (in 1942 CiC of the Kriegsmarine) strategy even in 1942. Faschists had already lost the battleship Bismark and Hitler was ready to refuse from heavy fleet and use more subs. But there is no lie that won't come out - in 1943 Grossadmiral Raeder became Admiral-Inspector of the Kriegsmarine http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

WereSnowleopard
04-28-2005, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by FB_Macki:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheRealWulfmann:
Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!

Try the fact the Tirpitz was in Kiel in 1941 and the attack on PQ17 was in 1942. The Tirpitz sailed for Norway on January 14, 1942 and never returned to Germany again...
There is plenty of research on this subject so it should not be a surprise regarding the "real" facts
Wulfmann

Exactly!!! Admiral Otto Schniewind ordered his officers rewrite the log-book, cause he had no idea how to explain the damage caused by K-21's torpedos (sub came back home safely). Of course he would never own himself beaten, because such fact could put the end to the Grossadmiral Raeder's (in 1942 CiC of the Kriegsmarine) strategy even in 1942. Faschists had already lost the battleship Bismark and Hitler was ready to refuse from heavy fleet and use more subs. But there is no lie that won't come out - in 1943 Grossadmiral Raeder became Admiral-Inspector of the Kriegsmarine http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? Tirpitz already had damage on it when ported? Anyone on ship can feel torpedo hit! Can anyone post picture of it's damage or tell what damage look like and where exact effect was on it? Thank you for let us know.

Regards
Snowleopard

TheRealWulfmann
04-28-2005, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by FB_Macki:
Exactly!!! Admiral Otto Schniewind ordered his officers rewrite the log-book, cause he had no idea how to explain the damage caused by K-21's torpedos (sub came back home safely). Of course he would never own himself beaten, because such fact could put the end to the Grossadmiral Raeder's (in 1942 CiC of the Kriegsmarine) strategy even in 1942. Faschists had already lost the battleship Bismark and Hitler was ready to refuse from heavy fleet and use more subs. But there is no lie that won't come out - in 1943 Grossadmiral Raeder became Admiral-Inspector of the Kriegsmarine http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

With no disrespect intended that is a fantasy!!!
I have read extensivly on this subject and the accurate documentation of the standard major overhaul done in Norway in which at no time was the ship unavailable for combat (inpossible with torpedo damage) and with out any drydocking.
Yet they also kept very detailed records of the miget sub attacks that would certainly be more embarrassing than a sub attack at sea, but all this to hide a major event from Hitler that would have cost them their lives and for what, anal pride? Try peddling this communist propaganda on someone with an IQ as high as the number of fingers on one's hand.
That would be laughable if it had more merit than it has.
As a well known (nobody knows it but I am famous, LOL) mission builder in CFS3 I have a sterling reputation for not having a side to favor so if I am calling this crXp, evryone without a desire to embellish the great Soviet empire will follow suit.
This tops all the conspiracy theories on WWII
You need to read more on this to have a clue as to what caused the down sizing the battlefleet and Raeder's resignation, all well documented.
Torpedo damage like you suggest could never have been hidden and even the Brits would have known from Norweigan resistance as well as recon photos.
I have to save this thread as I doubt any reputable naval history person would ever believe someone could possibly suggest such a load od CrXp!!!
Wulfmann