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BSS_Cerberus
05-21-2004, 10:01 AM
The debate has been on long enough without any information being provided by either side. I took a little time to gather up some information. Hopefully some educated conclusion can be reached with it.

Here is a good article about bore-sighting the 50cal.
http://yarchive.net/mil/ww2_fighter_boresight.html

Here are images that have to do with sighting.
http://www.skyunlimited.net/images/50cal/Bore-sighting_P-40.jpg

http://www.skyunlimited.net/images/50cal/38BSC.gif

http://www.skyunlimited.net/images/50cal/47GECD.gif

http://www.skyunlimited.net/images/50cal/9.jpg

http://www.skyunlimited.net/images/50cal/P-47N-318FG.jpg

http://www.skyunlimited.net/images/50cal/P-51BSD.gif

http://www.skyunlimited.net/images/50cal/img_0134.jpg

BSS_Cerberus
05-21-2004, 10:01 AM
The debate has been on long enough without any information being provided by either side. I took a little time to gather up some information. Hopefully some educated conclusion can be reached with it.

Here is a good article about bore-sighting the 50cal.
http://yarchive.net/mil/ww2_fighter_boresight.html

Here are images that have to do with sighting.
http://www.skyunlimited.net/images/50cal/Bore-sighting_P-40.jpg

http://www.skyunlimited.net/images/50cal/38BSC.gif

http://www.skyunlimited.net/images/50cal/47GECD.gif

http://www.skyunlimited.net/images/50cal/9.jpg

http://www.skyunlimited.net/images/50cal/P-47N-318FG.jpg

http://www.skyunlimited.net/images/50cal/P-51BSD.gif

http://www.skyunlimited.net/images/50cal/img_0134.jpg

BSS_Cerberus
05-21-2004, 10:25 AM
It is my impression that the Top image of the P-40 firing shows dispersion just a little better than what Il2 is currently doing. But we must assume that the guns have not been sighted in yet. They almost look like they are shooting straight forward instead of converging.

If you think what is currently modeled is wrong then please take the time to gather information to add to what we already have and post it in this thread.

Here is a better image posted on gibbages website that shows the convergence of a P-38. The dispersion seems better than that of IL-2.

http://www.gibbageart.com/images/P38_21_action.jpg

WOLFMondo
05-21-2004, 10:26 AM
Might wanna take this lot over to the 0.50 cal discussion in ORR.

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BSS_Cerberus
05-21-2004, 10:34 AM
What is the thread location?

F16_Fatboy
05-21-2004, 10:44 AM
From the book "Limited war sniping" where they test shoot among others a .50 Heavy barrel M2 for snipin purposes. The best result with a tripoid mounted M2 firing single shots is a radius of 1´+ at 200m. Add the shaking at continusly firing and the different ballastic of the varius types of bullets and the 2´radius protested by Gibbage isn´t far away.

FLSTF

http://img41.photobucket.com/albums/v125/F16_fatboy/PICT0142.jpg


http://img41.photobucket.com/albums/v125/F16_fatboy/PICT0143.jpg


http://img41.photobucket.com/albums/v125/F16_fatboy/PICT0144.jpg

http://img41.photobucket.com/albums/v125/F16_fatboy/Album1/sig_fatboy.jpg

p1ngu666
05-21-2004, 10:45 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=979109092&p=35

great pics and info

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
<123_GWood_JG123> NO SPAM!

BSS_Cerberus
05-21-2004, 11:23 AM
They closed that thread down, so there isn't any way to carry the conversation over to it.

I think we can handle ourselves well enough to carry it on. But please post your findings if any. I think every single opinion has already been expressed lol in the 36 page thread.

NegativeGee
05-21-2004, 11:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BSS_Cerberus:
They closed that thread down, so there isn't any way to carry the conversation over to it.

I think we can handle ourselves well enough to carry it on. But please post your findings if any. I think every single opinion has already been expressed lol in the 36 page thread.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

CrazyIvan has reopened it now.

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

http://www.invoman.com/images/tali_with_hands.jpg

Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!

FA_Maddog
05-21-2004, 11:43 AM
Don't bother, they will say it is all progaganda & bullsh@t.

Gibbage1
05-21-2004, 02:29 PM
Can someone translate the MR, MVD, MHD and stuff in those scans? Thanks. BTW. A .50 cal in a bi-pod should be more inaccurate then the ones mounted on a 17,000lb aircraft. So if the M2 in this test is more accurate then the M2 in-game, that proves there is something wrong.

"Most P-39's were sent to the Russians - so I guess that was an American secret weapon against our Russian allies."

Stan Wood, P-38 pilot who also flew the P-39.

F16_Fatboy
05-21-2004, 03:01 PM
More info from the "Limited war sniping" book!

"5. The caliber .50 M2 heavy-barrel machine gun was tested at 300,1000 and 1400 yards.
A. The first test at 300 yards with metallic sights produced groups with extreme spread larger than those fired by the M1D rifle at the same range. The use of telescopic sights in the following test offred little improvment indicating that the weapon´s accuracy is inherent in its construction and in the construction of the mount."

Something is not good with that gun.

The key to the MR, MVD etc are on the second picture left side down.

FLSTF

http://img41.photobucket.com/albums/v125/F16_fatboy/Album1/sig_fatboy.jpg

BSS_Cerberus
05-21-2004, 04:09 PM
The 50cal is a very accurate weapon alone. The record for longest kill was held by one until recently.

I believe Carlos Norman Hathcock II held the record for longest kill with a modified M2 and a scope. This recorded was beaten by a Canadian in Afganistan. Anyone have detailed information on what he used?

It is not the fact the gun is not accurate. I think it is more how much the wing shakes, and how long the barrels are. If that is not the reason for disperision, then there is no way that the pattern is so spread, because unless the guns are mounted loosely, or the bullets are tumbling, there isn't any way for it is go 5 feet over the target. My family has been in reloading for decades, and we have shot some very inaccurate weapons, but all of them perfromed decent unless the bullets tumbled. And all guns are accurate up to a certain distance. Even the ones without rifling, and yes there are guns that do not have riflying lol. My uncle bought a pistol one time that did not have any. He did not know any better.

So what is their reason for the guns moving so much in the wings if the gun itself is not inacurate. I could understand them being inaccurate at a distance, but when I pause the game when the tracers first light up they are already spread in a 10-12 inch pattern. and that is only 50-100 yrds away from the barrel.

EmbarkChief
05-21-2004, 09:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BSS_Cerberus:
The 50cal is a very accurate weapon alone. The record for longest kill was held by one until recently.

I believe Carlos Norman Hathcock II held the record for longest kill with a modified M2 and a scope. This recorded was beaten by a Canadian in Afganistan. Anyone have detailed information on what he used?

It is not the fact the gun is not accurate. I think it is more how much the wing shakes, and how long the barrels are. If that is not the reason for disperision, then there is no way that the pattern is so spread, because unless the guns are mounted loosely, or the bullets are tumbling, there isn't any way for it is go 5 feet over the target. My family has been in reloading for decades, and we have shot some very inaccurate weapons, but all of them perfromed decent unless the bullets tumbled. And all guns are accurate up to a certain distance. Even the ones without rifling, and yes there are guns that do not have riflying lol. My uncle bought a pistol one time that did not have any. He did not know any better.

So what is their reason for the guns moving so much in the wings if the gun itself is not inacurate. I could understand them being inaccurate at a distance, but when I pause the game when the tracers first light up they are already spread in a 10-12 inch pattern. and that is only 50-100 yrds away from the barrel.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He used a run-of-the-mill production .50cal operating in single shot mode mounted on a tripod using (I'm pretty sure) a 10X Unertyl (sp?) scope.

ZG77_Nagual
05-21-2004, 09:34 PM
Guys, This part of this discussion is largely invalidated by the fact that the .50 was reengineered at least I thought I read that somewhere - problems were found in the design that greatly reduced it's accuracy (the barrel design was basically a scaled up .3006 rifling wise). The Rifles and .50 machine guns in use for the past few years are not the same design as the ww2 guns as far as I know - at least insofar as rifling goes. Also If you look at the p40 in the photo above you can allready see quite a bit of shake - there are only three guns per wing.

[This message was edited by ZG77_Nagual on Fri May 21 2004 at 08:48 PM.]

Aaron_GT
05-22-2004, 02:19 AM
"A .50 cal in a bi-pod should be more inaccurate then the ones mounted on a 17,000lb aircraft."

It really does depend on the mount, though. A B17 is even heavier, but the dispersion of the tail turret is anything up to 25 mils at 600
yards.

With regard to sniping at 2000m, if the dispersion at one sigma (assuming a normal distribution) was 1.5 mils, the round would have a 70% chance of landing somewhere within 1.5m either side of the target. This is the figure for a modern XM312 .50 cal gun on a tripod. You'd be hard pressed to hit someone with any degree of accuracy at that range.

The quotes for WW2 aircraft mounted M2 are 8 mils for 100% shot dispersion. It's difficult to work out from that what the dispersion at one sigma is, though. A good estimate might be that 8 mils is 3 sigma, so that would mean the 1 sigma dispersion from an aircraft mounted gun would be about 2.7 mils, or almost twice that of a tripod mounted XM312.

LeadSpitter_
05-22-2004, 12:50 PM
I wrote to www.celbudanderson.com (http://www.celbudanderson.com) and www.chuckyeagar.com (http://www.chuckyeagar.com) Still waiting for a response.

Heres brownings offical home page as well.

http://www.browning.com/homepage/index.asp

This is a very important issue in pf since almost every usn aircraft uses .50 cal


I have no problem with the strenght of the gun in the game and its very effective.

But disurtion, long range accuracy, and staggered convergences are needed for PF

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif