PDA

View Full Version : clue me in on the a.i.



zoinksu52
01-01-2006, 04:23 PM
been trying to practice dogfights using qmb. i set the ai plane at rookie but i don't see it that way. is a noob battling an ai that's too good? i see the plane only on the first pass then fly a few minutes looking with my trackir4, being careful he doesn't sneak up and of course he's on my 6 and i'm dead, no chance, the rookie doesn't miss on the first burst. any way to dumb it up more so i can actually win? or am i flying against the same ai that can take my plane on auto pilot to the stars and never stall.

is the learning curve a few aggravating years or does the ai suck? all i know is i plain suck against the "rookies". and my ai pilots can't hit a thing except me.

zoinksu52
01-01-2006, 04:23 PM
been trying to practice dogfights using qmb. i set the ai plane at rookie but i don't see it that way. is a noob battling an ai that's too good? i see the plane only on the first pass then fly a few minutes looking with my trackir4, being careful he doesn't sneak up and of course he's on my 6 and i'm dead, no chance, the rookie doesn't miss on the first burst. any way to dumb it up more so i can actually win? or am i flying against the same ai that can take my plane on auto pilot to the stars and never stall.

is the learning curve a few aggravating years or does the ai suck? all i know is i plain suck against the "rookies". and my ai pilots can't hit a thing except me.

ICDP
01-01-2006, 05:10 PM
Hi,

Welcome to the world of PF. Have you patched up to 4.02? Make sure you get the righ version, if you are using only PF then get the patch 4.02. If you have a merged install get 4.02M. This patch really improves the AI and they dont do the silly UFO moves that plagued the earlier versions.

SeaFireLIV
01-01-2006, 05:29 PM
As ICDP asked, are you playing the latest version of the sim?

Whatever, the sim can be a little rough for new users if they know nothing at all about air combat. There are a few facters that make a difference:

1. Your plane type versus his plane type. what`s he flying against you? Some planes are very forgiving, even for noob AI. If you as a new chap have chosen a hard to fly aircraft (stally, hard to see around, etc) then you`re already half defeated.

2. Are you also new to TIR? If so, this in combination with your lack of experience could make your life really difficult as TIR can take a while to fully utilise. Most of us never started with such a combination.

My suggestions:

Take up an easier plane, like a Spitfire Vb or maybe an LA5fn or zero against something like a rookie early 109F or early 190 focke Wolf.

Fly after it for a bit, even take an AI Wingman to get the AI enemy off your tail and help you get your bearings again.

Oh yea, and have patience. give it a few days of flying to a week or so for improvement. realistic air combat is a learned skill, I`m afraid.

VW-IceFire
01-01-2006, 06:01 PM
Rookie AI pilots are pretty braindead with very limited responses and reactions. But my recollections of what the AI was like in 3.0 is different.

I'd suggest patching upto 4.02 and then giving it a go.

Still...the usual tactics are:

1) Keep the enemy in sight
2) Manuever to a position of advantage
3) Never fly in a straight line in the combat area

zoinksu52
01-01-2006, 06:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Fly after it for a bit, even take an AI Wingman to get the AI enemy off your tail and help you get your bearings again. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

that's the best advice i've seen that would help me in this area. 'cept i'm taking 3.

got it all patched out to 4.02. been reading a ton and i still feel clueless. i am comfy with trackir4. this is natural and i struggle with a hat. in fact, trackir 4 is responsible for my investment in the ch pedals, throttle pro, and combatstick now that i can finally overcome the hat control.

the weird part of this gmae is i feel completely noobly. but i have played original red baron, wing commander, swotl, and eaw with mild success. those games had ai that could be toned down. i have always loved flight sims but never had good hardware and vision kept me from getting good - the hat always gave me problems.

i am flying realistic all cockpit view. and i can successfully take off and land, on carriers too, which is something i have never been able to do in any other sim. i owe this to trackir - or the crutch it has provided to drive me to finally learn. my ground attacks and dive bombing are also improving to my liking.

i have shot down one plane, a d3a1 in a tutorial mission, only cause i cut my lead off. one plane in 5 weeks.

maybe i will try no damage option to my plane so at least the rookies can get a second burst. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Kuna15
01-01-2006, 06:41 PM
When against rookie Ai, if you lose him from your sight just make a wide circles untill you see him again. If you fly straight and level there is a chance that you may get hit. Ai always see us.

Against Rookie and Average I go in head-on every time but vs. Veteran & Ace it is tough if they take a burst on you.

For a beggining, take faster plane than Ai; for example fly LA-7 vs. Bf-109G-6, or Bf-109G-10 vs. LaGG-3S66. That way you will have edge in speed. Also IceFire's suggestion about wingman is really good since they will help you.
Take note that you should always have edge in manouverability regardless of your plane and Ai opponent's plane; Ai simply don't manoeuver hard enough -- I have shot down Ace Ai LA-7 in FW-190A-5 in hard turning combat accordingly.

And yes, practice gunnery a lot. Set up bomber formations (with empty loadout) and than riddle them as fast as you can with formula -- one pass one bomber or something like that. You have probably already noticed that in this game gunnery is everything you can be perfect flyer but if you can't place your shots... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

zoinksu52
01-01-2006, 06:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kuna15:

For a beggining, take faster plane than Ai; for example fly LA-7 vs. Bf-109G-6, or Bf-109G-10 vs. LaGG-3S66. That way you will have edge in speed.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i need f-22 vs. wright flyer http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Bearcat99
01-01-2006, 11:57 PM
If you are flying in the cockpit with TIR .... and some would disagree... dont feel bad or noobly about using icons (map icons are utter noobness.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif) until you can get your feet in the sim. You can also adjust the icons so that you only see them when the plane is close. Very often planes will disappear into the water or the landscape. Or use external padlock. It is a great tool to help you get a little SA when you eyes just arent cutting it. It wont make you an ace or keep you from getting shot down... but it will help you to find your bearings. You can always go back to the full immersion settings later.

Freelancer-1
01-02-2006, 12:51 AM
Don't be shy to slow the game down. Use the [ ] keys. I found it quite helpful at first as things happen fast and furious.

It will also help with your gunnery as you can take the time to see where your bullets are going.

Cheers,

actionhank1786
01-02-2006, 02:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Freelancer-1:
Don't be shy to slow the game down. Use the [ ] keys. I found it quite helpful at first as things happen fast and furious.

It will also help with your gunnery as you can take the time to see where your bullets are going.

Cheers, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When Il-2 first came out i was trying to learn how to fly pretty much.
No game i had played was even close to this one in the way the flight model felt, and i can tell you, i learned to fly and fight by taking on enemy bombers.
Using the [ key to slow down time, and the ] to speed it back up helps a lot.
Give you time to learn just where the heck your shots are going when you fire them.
And by the way, welcome to the boards, and keep learning!
You'll learn more than you ever thought you could just thanks to this game, and these boards.

mortoma
01-02-2006, 09:50 AM
After you have played a few years you will be able to beat the AI on ACE level, no matter which plane you flying and no matter what plane they fly. Unless there's a severe mismatch, like you in a P-11C against a ace level AI in a FW-190D Dora or something outlandish like that!! I can almost always beat the AI on ace level because after a while not only did I get better, but I learned their weaknesses and shortcomings. I just know what they are going to do, they are predictable. I get bored constantly killing them in droves. You will get there, it just takes patience!!

horseback
01-02-2006, 11:26 AM
Most of us started at least as noobish as you think you have. In Real Life, shooting down an airplane (any airplane) was one of the hardest things a pilot could do. The Hostile rookie ai may not be particularly 'smart', but he can fly his aircraft quite well, and he will try to get on your 6 and shoot at you. What he can't do is hit an aircraft that's turning, or 'lead' a moving target. Make sure that you're never going in a straight line for more than a couple of seconds.

I found my 'shooting eye' initially by setting up QMBs (Quick Mission Builders) with no Hostiles, just friendlies, and shot the friendlies down, one by one. They don't dodge around as much, and they don't try to shoot you down. I also set my guns' convergence to a reasonable range as well, about 200 meters. After a while, I took off the 'training wheels ' and moved up to Hostile Rookies, and so on.

I also leave my icons on when flying offline, because the ai always know where you are: you can't drop below his nose and disappear into the 'weeds' or hide behind his canopy framing the way he can, so don't surrender that advantage until you have the thing figured out.

The visuals in this game sometimes fail to be fully realistic, in that objects below you are not as clear against a background as they would be in RL. Aircraft a mere 6 km away appear as dots, and ground objects that ought to stick out like a sore thumb are next to invisible at less than 1km, even when scanning in Gunsight View. Icons do much to ameliorate (how often do you get to use 'ameliorate' in a sentence?)that situation.

After a while, though, you'll get the knack, learn to translate your speed into altitude and altitude into speed as appropriate (remember that by trying to turn inside or climb more steeply than your target all the time, you bleed off more of your speed; sometimes it's better to go wide and maintain your energy state), and keep your ai opponent where you want him.

This will be much easier if you find a single aircraft that you are comfortable with, one that is relatively forgiving, and isn't too trim-critical; this will probably take the Mustang off the list, for one example. If you like flying Red, I'd suggest a Spitfire or La-5FN, and if you like Blue, almost any Japanese fighter or (if you have the merged version) the Bf 109F-4 or G-2.

cheers

horseback

Kuna15
01-02-2006, 12:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by actionhank1786:
No game i had played was even close to this one in the way the flight model felt, and i can tell you, i learned to fly and fight by taking on enemy bombers.
Using the [ key to slow down time, and the ] to speed it back up helps a lot.
Give you time to learn just where the heck your shots are going when you fire them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree 100%. My learning curve was also similar as far as gunnery is concerned.

vanjast
01-02-2006, 02:58 PM
You need to RELAX and just think clearly. There's no real rush, well sort of ... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

icrash
01-02-2006, 05:47 PM
The ai works two ways 1.headshaking dumb. I've seen a Zero stay @ straight 6 with no evasive action & was an easy kill from a B-25 tail gun. Maybe your fighter cover doesn't watch your back. 2. brilliant. Some taxi around a destroyed plane in order to get airborne. Some are magic at clearing your 6 with amazing deflection shooting skills. You never really know what your going to get as help, kinda like you would IRL.

SeaFireLIV
01-02-2006, 06:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by icrash:
Some taxi around a destroyed plane in order to get airborne. . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do they? I`ve never seen this. Need to do more flying and see for myself!

icrash
01-02-2006, 08:23 PM
Well, it looked that way when a couple started to the left & right of the trashed plane & started off. I flew WW view and saw that much as I blasted past. I didn't stick around long to really see, the AA was going nuts so I could be wrong. Maybe I should fly with damage off to see if I really saw what I thought I saw.

zoinksu52
01-03-2006, 02:02 AM
flying a Seafire L Mark III vs. Hawk75a-3. a definate an ego builder as i now customarily strut to the briefing room no doubt impressing the squadron.

huge help zooming to gun view to see the bogie otherwise i always lose sight. and my engine management needs help as i get outrun by better planes. finally seeing progress after being the poster child for those guncam videos.

Unknown-Pilot
01-03-2006, 09:34 AM
zoinks, I'm a huge Wing Commander fan myself. (you wouldn't beleive all the WC stuff I have... lol)

But SWOTL (the Lucas Arts version?) WC, and RB3D have nothing in common with PF.

SWOTL (if the one I'm thinking of) was so early in the days of PC simulation, that the FM was anything but realistic. Ditto with RB3D, but there you have another problem in that, even with the patches that were supposed to improve the FM, it's a whole 'nother world (sort of). And Wing Commander was just pure arcade fantasy. Different fighters behaved differently, but there was no gravity, no drag, and everything that goes with them, so it was nowhere even close to similar. (&lt;- nevermind the fact that it's FM was totally unrealistic for space too)

The nuances of PF will take a while to get used to. The feel of the stick (seems that n00bs tend to be rather heavy handed), the nuances of gunnery will also take a long time (I still suck at shooting, even after 4 years). So as the others said, try not to get discouraged.

As for the AI, some basics about them -
Rookie - Veteran all fly roughly the same, vet might be a hair better, but there's really no difference in how they fly. It's how they shoot that makes the real difference.

Aces shoot even better, but are more canny and will attempt to extend and gain alt over you. This makes fighting Aces difficult unless you are in a faster plane.

Someone else menioned that they are random. I've seen 'Aces' that sucked, and those that were amazing. If you play against the same plane and AI level enough times in a row, you will see differences in them. Sometimes even a low level AI will be good as a result of this.

The AI hates being shot at. This means in a head on, if you don't shoot, he will. If you do, he won't, he'll try to evade. You can use this to your advantage.

You can also evade the AI by getting low. This is a last ditch tactic, but if you have one on your 6, get about 10 feet off the ground and stay there for a bit. He will break off and fly away, as if you crashed. Then you can work for position and re-engage.

The AI "cheats" - they don't suffer from overheat, don't black out, and don't break apart from exceeding VNE. Not only that, they can see all around them, and through clouds and mountains (they do pretend to be blind at times though). This means that you can't rely on a lot of things that would work against humans.

The AI only knows how to turn fight, so if you put them in an energy fighter (190, P-47, P-51, etc) they will be pretty helpless.

Rookie - Vet also are aggressive almost all the time. They won't try to break off and extend or hold off and see what you are doing.

Those last 2 points are a weakness for you to capitolize on. You know they will always try to pull lead and get a shot, and always try to get behind you. When your skills build, you can use this by building and maintaining a higher energy state and lure them into helplessness. (this is how you can use a 190, or P-47, or even F6F to beat any AI, even Ace, La7s and Yak3s)

One other thing, they have an infuriating habit of breaking just as you are about to pull the trigger. It's as if they know somehow. lol

One way to help curb that a little is to not use padlock, but they will still do it even then at times.


Other than that, some general tips -
Use the padlock feature. It's there for a reason. (real vision is much higher detail, and much longer reaching, while at the same time having much wider scope. Staring through a tiny square window, with poor resolution and poor vis distance are pretty severe handicaps. Don't listen to anyone who tells you that padlock isn't realistic. It's a perfectly realistic compensation for the limitations of the interface. Even Oleg thinks so.)

Use more than just gunsight zoom, get used to using all your view modes - Wide, "Normal", Zoom, and Gunsight (shift-F1). For LW planes, gunsight view moves you over to the revi so you can see the crosshairs, but on allied planes, it bumps you forward just a bit, while also having your head move a bit less so the hairs stay more centered. I personally use Wide view for flying (and landing), "Normal" for shooting, and Zoom for indentification. I'll toggle back and forth between gunsight and non when I'm trying to shoot, or when I'm trying to see around things - for example, on the 190, it can shift the top bar out of the way, and on planes like the F6F, it can move the back away from you, giving a better rear view, etc.

It might not be a bad idea to turn things off too, while getting started. Turning off realistic gunnery makes it much easier to hit things. Turning off blackouts, overheat, and CEM will even the playing field against the AI. Turning off gyro effects, and maybe even stalls and spins will make it more like what you are used to. Then over time as you want more challenge you can add those things back, bit by bit.

zoinksu52
01-03-2006, 10:55 AM
who was that guy? excellent advice from the unknown. you've pointed out some things that will definately help along with everyone else, and finally all the pieces on all subjects are coming together.

for the first time yesterday i really enjoyed this sim. i see why so many are hooked and why so many are frustrated. but as all have been saying its worth the effort. i have been looking for a great game for some time and it appears it may be found. only strategy games have been my other fav now that i've become bored with firsts person shooters, which i think are great.

as for the oddies of the ai, i have seen enough in my fmb creations and now dogfighting, and the explanations here to confirm what i had suspected. i will not complain. i am disappointed but i have no room to criticize as do not code. and if i did i'm sure all planes would explode on lift off then a system ctd. however, the ai seems good enough for me to enjoy this sim and with the quality of online play including squadrons i should be more than content.

i am diong it all in cockpit view with no padlock - which requires use of all views. i agree with the padlock theory due to visual limitations, but use of all views plus tir4(unflyable without imo) gives an edge i've never had before. got my hat and a 4-way switch on my joystick for gun view thru external, which is my only crutch along with map icons as learning aids. as i see mistakes i have corrected them - carrier take offs/landings - and work in the pit.

actually, i'm getting cockey with these pathetic rookies and sometime toy with their futile escape closing so near i can see the trembling ai hand bank into a hard dive and crash into the sea. i now believe i have a voodoo that induces binary panic and continue to have premonitions of an alias Satan's Grim Black Death Reaper's Son, except i've got no info on dad. should have it all worked out in time for bob.

thanks again for great tips, y'all.

i'm going to need a canopy mod as this scythe obstructs operation.

Unknown-Pilot
01-03-2006, 11:40 AM
Good to hear the improvements. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But if you're feeling that confident, why not try taking a 190 againsta Vet or Ace Yak3? (with all realism options turned on of course) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

It's *quite* doable once you get a feel for energy fighting, but, that usually takes quite awhile. There are plenty of matchups against AI that will be able to humble you for a long time to come. Be sure. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kuna15
01-03-2006, 12:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Unknown-Pilot:
Good to hear the improvements. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But if you're feeling that confident, why not try taking a 190 againsta Vet or Ace Yak3? (with all realism options turned on of course) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

It's *quite* doable once you get a feel for energy fighting, but, that usually takes quite awhile. There are plenty of matchups against AI that will be able to humble you for a long time to come. Be sure. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree 100%.
And not only that I think that user gets a 'feeling' for situation in a regard that when he enters the combat he already knows if he is going to win or lose; what are the odds.

zoinksu52
01-03-2006, 01:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kuna15:
...what are the odds. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

3 to 1 i stall and crash with him. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

EPP_Gibbs
01-04-2006, 09:47 AM
The simple explanation of your problem is contained in this fighter pilot's truism

"Lose sight, lose the fight"

QMB combats always start with a head on merge. What you need to do is spot your enemy as soon a possible and never lose sight of him, or at least awareness of where he is.

On the merge, if you can't see him by the time you think you should, wiggle your rudder. The yawing action will reveal him if your canopy framing was obstructing your view. In 70% of those situations, it is!

You need to make a decision..head on with guns, or an avoid. If you're going head on, it's pretty obvious. If you're going to avoid, position yourself so you keep left or right of his flightline. As you close, he will turn into you and try and get guns on. Decide again....energy fight or turnfight. This largely depends on what you and he are flying.

For a turnfight, I find it works to turn into him to deny him a shot, while climbing moderately, a sort of chandelle. Immediately you pass, look over your shoulder on the same side as him and track him visually as you turn and climb. If he does disappear, you should be able to re-aquire him pretty quickly, and he'll be turning in the same direction as you. Your turn should tighten up as your speed scrubs off, and you should have some height on him, or at least parity if he chose to go up too. It puts you in a good position to start combat proper. Works fine with all levels of AI and real people too.

Energy fighting is all about having more speed and/or height than them. There your goal is not to scrub of speed in turns but to use it to gain height. Then from an altitude advantage you can make diving attacks, using the built up diving speed to regain height at the end of the pass. You keep turns shallow and to the very minimum as turning bleeds off energy.

Those skilled in this will try and goad their quarry into scrubbing more of their energy off by making hem turn or climb in pursuit. When they are slow and vulnerable, the energy fighter attacks.

This was the preferred method of attack by experienced fighter pilots on all sides during WW2.

It does make an interesting match to pit a good energy fighter against a good turnfighter.

Using good energy tactics in a suitable plane, you can take a plane that isn't actually very manoeverable at all, like a Me109K, and kick the c*ap out of 4 or more Ace Yak 3's or Zeros in QMB quite easily, both very maoeuverable.

There are a few aircraft that do both well, in that they are fairly fast, can climb well, dive well, and turn well. Spitfire IX is one.

SeaFireLIV
01-04-2006, 10:07 AM
Been flying offline quite a bit with 4.02m and the AI is very good. One thing I`ve noticed is if you open fire on an AI enemy his wingman will fire at you, EVEN if he`s NOT in optimum range! It`s a tactic to try and throw you off from hitting his leader!

Great stuff.

Kuna15
01-05-2006, 04:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Been flying offline quite a bit with 4.02m and the AI is very good. One thing I`ve noticed is if you open fire on an AI enemy his wingman will fire at you, EVEN if he`s NOT in optimum range! It`s a tactic to try and throw you off from hitting his leader!

Great stuff. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ditto.
Also Ai first usually fires machine guns and when it enters close range he fires cannons too and... very nice touch, as you said they are really good.

Punkfriday
01-05-2006, 10:42 AM
i remember my first kill... (sniff) it was an axis recon plane...

Hoatee
01-06-2006, 01:22 PM
Artificial intelligence is only different to human intelligence, not inferior.

hkg36sd
01-08-2006, 05:05 PM
I've been re-installing both merged and standalone for other reasons (trying to get online) but I've noticed one thing. the AI in PF standalone reacts differently than in the merged version. The AI seems to do more vertical maneuvers and aerobatics in the PF standalone than in the IL:FB/AEP/PF merged version. The graphics are also more distinctive (land patterns, aircraft skins) but not as smooth - lowering the video options a notch doesn't really smooth (I'll have to incept the FPS next time to see) as the merged version...now if I can get this thing to work online!!.....

SeaFireLIV
01-08-2006, 07:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hoatee:
Artificial intelligence is only different to human intelligence, not inferior. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it`s inferior and different.

When it learns to learn and adapt, then play realistic mind games against the Human then it`ll probably be equal. And we should probably pull the plug.