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antiStalin
07-28-2008, 09:18 AM
Hi everyone,

I had played CFS 2 & 3. Although my skill is still far from perfect, there seemed to be no significant problems in taking off. Due to academic studies, I have put down IL-2 1946 for half a year, replayed it tonight (as now is summer time), choosing single mission: Air Force - IJA, Mission type - Ki-84-1b. At the very beginning, I started the engine, lowered my flaps to take off status, applied the brake and then increased the throttle to 100%. Without releasing the brake, the plane's nose started to turn to the left sightly. Therefore I twisted the joystick clockwise to counter it and then released the brake. The plane ran very fast. Maybe I twisted too much, the fighter's nose turned right, therefore I twisted anticlockwise to balance it, next the nose turned left ... resulting in the plane's nose steered left and right, like zig-zagging, and finally rammed into the grassland on the left of the runway. I reflew and the same phenomenon happened again. Frustrated. Please provide me some hints.

Many thanks.

"In life, not all balls are good ones. Only a seasoned slugger can make a hit every time." Master Cheng Yen

mortoma
07-28-2008, 09:26 AM
After playing for a while, you should be able to take a KI-84 off as straight as the AI, almost.
The first thing you want to do is apply your tail wheel lock. This keeps you going straight or almost straight at first. When your tail comes up you have to be on the rudders right away. Be ready for a swing and find out which direction the swing is going to be in so you'll be even more ready when the tail rises. But even with the tail wheel locked, the plane might try to go a tiny bit one way or the other even while the tail is still on the ground. I have gotten good enough that I apply rudder even to correct this small drift. Not that I'm so good, just been doing it a while.

The tail wheel lock does not come with a key assignment by default, you have to go into the "Controls" menu and assign it a key command yourself. Or if you have a programmable joystick and some unused buttons, you can assign it to one of those.

And seldom do I run up the throttle really fast. I usually take about 5 seconds to go from no throttle to full throttle.

Also sounds like you may be over-reacting/over-controlling. Don't overdo anything. Hope that helps.

JadehawkII
07-28-2008, 09:31 AM
I myself do not use the brakes. Just start engine and let idle as 0 power setting. When time to take off, slowly but firmly apply power and compensate for the engine torque by applying the rudder to counter it. This takes practice as you do not want to apply too much rudder and end up like you have been. I never apply 100% power at a standstill!

Once your tail comes up, you should not have to use the rudder if your going straight down the runway. Just ease back on the stick gently and soo enough you will be off the ground.

Good luck! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

mortoma
07-28-2008, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by JadehawkII:
I myself do not use the brakes. Just start engine and let idle as 0 power setting. When time to take off, slowly but firmly apply power and compensate for the engine torque by applying the rudder to counter it. This takes practice as you do not want to apply too much rudder and end up like you have been. I never apply 100% power at a standstill!

Once your tail comes up, you should not have to use the rudder if your going straight down the runway. Just ease back on the stick gently and soo enough you will be off the ground.

Good luck! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Funny, if I don't stay on the rudder, I will leave the centerline of the runway and even after take off I won't stay on the exact runway heading without some rudders in most aircraft. You want to stay exactly in the middle on the runway and maintain that on the climb out.

When I was flying real GA aircraft, if I would have not stayed centered up during and after take off, the other pilots at the airport would have laughed me off the face of the earth!! Can't stay centered without rudder............

FoolTrottel
07-28-2008, 10:13 AM
twisted the joystick

Could it be the rudder control itself?
Acting up a bit? Spiking? Logitech?

Maybe reduce the rudder's sensitivity?

Wildnoob
07-28-2008, 10:34 AM
I think you not have pedals.

with pedals you can easly correct the plane on take off by press the pedal in the oposite direction of the torque.

x6BL_Brando
07-28-2008, 10:48 AM
Holding the brakes on and applying full throttle is the issue here.
You need to ease away from the rest position by bringing the throttle up gently, and use the whole length of the runway to get airborne. Don't be heavy-handed with the stick in any axis - if you take your time the plane will fly itself off the ground, especially with flaps deployed. As above, don't over-correct if your nose starts to swing.

B

Uufflakke
07-28-2008, 01:07 PM
In the game is a Training Section. Select IL-2 Take Off and you will be shown how to do it. But they demonstrate it the opposite as said before: not gently but holding brakes, throtte up to 110%, release brakes and correcting the torque with rudder. I prefer x6BL_Brando's way otherwise my plane goes to much from one side to the other on the runway just like the training video.
And don't forget to watch the other training vids, there is some interesting stuff to see.
I don't know if rudder are default keys in the Control Section but maybe you have to select one to use rudder (unless you have rudder pedals of course.)

WTE_Galway
07-28-2008, 05:23 PM
Generally full throttle before releasing brakes is only necessary in a thunderstorm or attempting a really short rough field takeoff from off the runway.

As stated above its simpler to ease the throttle up over a few seconds it makes corrections simpler.

On rough takeoffs it also can help to start the takeoff run with no flaps and add takeoff flaps when you are ready to rotate. This keeps the bird firmly on the ground and avoids premature excursions into the air until you are ready to fly.

Even on a runway do not get into the air too early. Most aircraft in the game are happy to stay on the ground well past rotation speed. In real life the undercarriage would not handle it but in the game the undercarriages can handle insane speeds.Until you get the hang of it its better to rotate too fast than too slow.

Once in the air if a wing dips at low speed correct with rudder and NOT stick. Using aileron to lift a dipped wing might be the natural reaction but when low and slow it is lethal, use opposite rudder. You can recover an aircraft that has "tipped over" to an almost vertical position with just rudder if you react fast enough.

Get the gear up and flaps up as soon as possible and stay low until you get to your best climb speed (usually between 260 and 300 depending on plane.

Finally ... if after all that you are still having trouble download a joystick setup controller and play with the rudder profile and soften it up a bit.

Zeus-cat
07-28-2008, 09:40 PM
It sounds like you are oversteering too. If the plane veers off in one direction, use GENTLE, CONTROLLED inputs to bring it back in line. If you slam the rudder in one direction you will then veer the other way and then you will have to slam the rudder the opposite way. You will end up doing this all the way down the runway.

antiStalin
07-29-2008, 02:05 AM
Truly grateful for all the above sensible, mindful and precious advice on taking off.

"Take a step back when dealing with others. Be more generous when loving others. This way, you will be happy in the course of your life." Master Cheng Yen

unreasonable
07-29-2008, 03:34 AM
Just wanted to add my thoughts to the good advice already thrown out - that is to decide how much elevator trim you want to use as part of your take off checklist.

For most a/c I have found that 20 taps of tail heavy trim prevents the tail from coming up until after 90% power has been gradually applied for a few seconds and then 100% can be applied safely without fear of the a/c tipping over onto its nose - the elevator only needs a little backwards twitch once you reach take off speed and the trim is still OK for a few more seconds as you build up speed. Apart from this no elevator input is required. I usually fly 109s and this method works very well, leaving you free to work your rudder without having to worry about the elevator at all. It also works with other a/c I have tried on a casual basis - but not the Fw 190 and maybe others I do not know.

The alternative approach is to put on 100% tail heavy trim - then rotation will require a firm forward push, or for a/c like the Fw190 which must be taken off three pointed no rotation is required.

Personally I prefer the first method since I feel more in control of the a/c in the take off and initial climb but I freely admit I do not know which is more "realistic".

x6BL_Brando
07-29-2008, 05:56 AM
Personally I just apply a little back-pressure on the stick to keep the locked tail-wheel in contact with the grass/tarmac for as long as necessary. Not too much, as you don't want the plane to rotate before you reach take-off speed - just enough to keep you straight until the tail starts to lift. At that point the speed has increased enough that the control surfaces have some authority (obviously) so it's time to start gentle correction with the rudder to keep the nose straight.

The problem with pushing the throttle through the gate at the beginning is that the 'authority' of the control surfaces over direction increases with velocity. So, while you may need 15 degrees of right rudder at 70 mph to keep straight - that figure may have decreased to 5 degrees by the time you hit 100 mph. With the throttle fully open it all happens pretty quickly, and can result in 'fishtailing' and a groundloop before you're even aware of it.

The pre-flight trimming of the Spitfire actually involved setting the elevator to about five degrees of 'nose-heaviness', while the rudder trim (or bias, as they called it) was set fully right to counteract the torque of the Merlin once it was airborne. The throttle was not cracked fully open in the take-off phase. 90% will lift you off just fine at somewhere around 100 mph.

Finally, it's worth investigating one of the user-made programs for adjusting control sensitivities available from M4T (http://mission4today.com/index.php?name=Downloads&c=53) I use IL2 Joy Control myself; IL2 Sticks is also good.

B

antiStalin
07-29-2008, 10:48 AM
I have tried to take off the Ki-84-1b again tonight. I assumed my previous problem was due to overtwsiting my jobstick. But still I rammed into a warehouse and exploded. Therefore, I switch the difficulty level to normal. Pressing F2 for external view, then button A to see how the AI took off. I clearly realized that the rudder "remained neutral" all the time. Therefore, I tried to copy, not twisting my joystick, pressing F2 again, starting the enigine, lowering the flaps, applying the brake before I increased my throttle to around 90%. As mentioned before, the plane's nose started to turn left. In order to copy the AI, I did not apply the rudder, and then released the brake to see what happened. The plane just turned left and drawing circles feriously. Yes, "feriously". It crashed and exploded at last as you can predicted. The same phenomenon happened to Me-109.
It seems this may be due to technical glithes, I mean my computer. However, my hp notebook is up-to-date which is only one year old.

"Endurance is not the highest state. When one no longer thinks about endurance, then one will feel that all adversities are natural." Master Cheng Yen

lesterhawksby
07-29-2008, 11:09 AM
Ah.

First up, don't follow the AI! It seems to me like the AI cheats a bit on landing & takeoff. I first became a bit suspicious when lumbering attack planes and speedy escorts followed exactly the same takeoff and landing paths... I'm no expert but I suspect the AI planes don't quite live on the same flight model as the player when taking off and landing. It probably saves processor cycles when you have those big missions with whole squadrons taking off.

Anyway, I certainly find I need a certain amount of rudder to keep straight on the runway and then when I first get into the air, although some planes do seem lighter than others. Can you take off acceptably in something like a rocket plane which has no torque? Or the twin jet 262 where the engines balance?

I, too, have only a twist joystick and I found it fairly difficult at first - at least on my stick, it is far too easy to overcontrol on the rudder axis - it has a very strong centering spring and a short throw. Is yours like this? If so, it's probably not a technical glitch so much as a natural limitation - I can't see any way other than learning to make gentler movements with it.

(It would be much easier with pedals, but I haven't space - the twist gets easier with practice until you hardly realise you're doing it.)

Good luck!

antiStalin
07-29-2008, 11:58 AM
Hi, lesterhawksby,

My joystick is Logitech EXTREME 3D PRO. To make the take off easier, this time I tried to trim the rudder to the right by pressing Ctrl X a number of times before starting my engine to counter the torque effect. Strange. no response. The rudder remained neutral. However, my controls are on default settings. Therefore, I guessed it might be due to technical promblems of my hp notebook. To make things clearer, I installed the game to my desktop. Of course, the controls now are sure on the default settings. However, pressing Ctrl X a number of times to trim the rudder, the rudder still did not response, and remained neutral. Why?

"Nothing is very easy in this world. However, any circumstance that does not contain harship is no good as a beacon for human life." Master Cheng Yen

antiStalin
07-29-2008, 12:09 PM
Many thanks again for all the above valuable comments.

"We grow wiser with every experience. Wisdom is tempered by the interactions between experiences and people. So if we avoid reality and hide from people and events, we will have difficulty producing wisdom." Master Cheng Yen

M_Gunz
07-29-2008, 12:16 PM
That plane may not have had rudder trim. If so it won't work in IL2.

I had one of those Logicrap sticks. Check the calibration periodically. That's all I'll say.
Definitely mess with the rudder sensitivity if it does calibrate right. It may take a few
tries to get something that fits you and that stick.

If you're using Ctrl keys to trim with then go remap your keys in the Controls section!
You don't need the arrow keys to do what your stick does but they make great easy trim keys.
You don't need the number keys to do what your throttle does while you do need easy to use
prop pitch controls, no?
Some time spent remapping keys will make the whole game easier to play and remember.

Uufflakke
07-29-2008, 12:32 PM
The default settings for full rudder trim are Z (left full) and X(right full) and nót Ctrl X or Ctrl Z. Maybe you got mixed up with the fact that the menu in the game is called "CONTROLS".
For all of the default aircraft control settings open your IL2 1946 folder and you will see a .pdf file called "Controls".
I use Z and X for rudder control too and it works quite well.
Another tip: tab those Z and X keys several times quickly during take off and landing otherwise you will swing too much from left to right.

Oh, and when you got familiar with this I should give it a try to take off from a carrier. Don't forget to map a key for your chocks by the way! I can assure you you will see your carrier from sealevel many times... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

WTE_Galway
07-29-2008, 05:10 PM
Something odd is going on. Its not really that hard to takeoff from a normal runway even in a real aircraft.

two suggestions

When correcting try just a nudge of rudder in the direction you want to go and then taking rudder back to neutral. Maybe you are correcting for too long.

Try practicing a takeoff at quarter speed. You might be able to spot what is going wrong.

unreasonable
07-29-2008, 11:59 PM
x6BL_Brando said: "The pre-flight trimming of the Spitfire actually involved setting the elevator to about five degrees of 'nose-heaviness',"....

that is very interesting I did not know that. I know the Me109G manual says set elevator to "tail heavy" before start up, but I have not seen a Spit manual...is there one on the www somewhere?

M_Gunz
07-30-2008, 02:05 AM
Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
Something odd is going on. Its not really that hard to takeoff from a normal runway even in a real aircraft.

Even tail draggers with extreme power to weight?
I had read an account of a guy who got to try a Buchon and damn near wrecked it trying to take
off. He couldn't keep it on the strip.

WTE_Ibis
07-30-2008, 02:49 AM
According to Closterman they removed hangers from the side of the runway after several accidents because of the torque swing of the Typhoons.
We are talking about powerfull prop engines.

.

x6BL_Brando
07-30-2008, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by unreasonable:
x6BL_Brando said: "The pre-flight trimming of the Spitfire actually involved setting the elevator to about five degrees of 'nose-heaviness',"....

that is very interesting I did not know that. I know the Me109G manual says set elevator to "tail heavy" before start up, but I have not seen a Spit manual...is there one on the www somewhere?

I gleaned the info from Geoffrey Wellum's first-hand account of piloting a Spit, in his book "First Light". I just dug it out of the bookshelf and I'm off to read it through.
I'll report back when I find the appropriate passage

B

Okay, I found the passage I was thinking of, and it was a pleasant hunt http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I was wrong, and here's the lowdown. [my italics]
This is pre-flight, just after the fitters have started and run up the engine, done magneto checks and so on, and shut it down again:

"Up onto the wing and step in. I hang my helmet on the stick and plug in the R/T lead and oxygen tube. At the same time I check the bottle contents: full. Fuel? Press the fuel gauge button, reads full also. OK, that's fine. Trim? Let's adjust it now and then it's done with. Full rudder bias to help with the swing on take-off, elevators one degree nose heavy, that's good. Airscrew, full fine pitch. That's about it, then, ready to scramble when the time comes....."

After a long couple of hours in the dispersal hut the order to scramble comes through. The quoted passage begins after the squadron has taxied out onto the field and formed up:

" 'OK, Gannic, here we go.'
Eyes fixed on Brian's aircraft. It starts to move. Brakes off with a hiss of escaping air, ease the throttle open and I go with him. Course corrections on the rudder, keep her straight, squadron formation take-off. Bumpy ground, more power, keep up with him; come on, more throttle, still more acceleration and gaining speed. Tail coming off the ground and yet more throttle, now we are really beginning to move. Controls are getting feel. We race across the ground, a bump throws my Spitfire into the air, catch it on the stick, we fly. Eyes riveted on the leader. Brian just leaving the deck.
Change hands on the stick, select wheels up, throttle back to climbing power and pitch back to 2,850 revs. Now settle down and hold position; concentrate. The edge of the airfield flashes by below us and we are away and starting a climbing turn to port
Over the R/T: 'Hello, Sapper, Gannic Squadron airborne.' ...."

It's not exactly FB-style, but it blows the full throttle, brakes off theory into the weeds (where it must ultimately end, I think). Notice the steadily increasing throttle application, and how "Controls are getting feel" comes after the tail comes up. Note also that he "..throttle[s] back to climbing power and pitch[es] back to 2,850 revs..." just after take-off.

I'll take the liberty of quoting one last passage, taken from the moments preceding the engagement;

"Things are starting to get rough. Automatically I have followed my self-imposed drill that I always do at times like this. Reflector sight on; gun button to fire; airscrew pitch to 2,650 revs; better response . Press the emergency boost over-ride, lower my seat a notch and straps tight. OK, men, I'm all set. Let battle commence...."

B

antiStalin
07-31-2008, 06:04 AM
Three Cheers for all of you. I CAN take off now.

"Compassion is sympathy. The compassionate heart is able to forgive, be patient, and express tolerance and love. The most fortunate people are able to forgive and sympathize with all living beings." Master Cheng Yen

unreasonable
07-31-2008, 09:04 PM
B: Thanks for the excerpt - 1% nose heavy - that is about 4 taps of IL2 trim I think. I always worry that without tail heavy trim the a/c will tip over on its nose when I release the back pressure on the stick. Other than that agree 100% with nice controlled take off. Now I feel inspired to fire up a Spitfire...

antiStalin: Good Job - I look forward to seeing your posts about landing ;-)

DaddyAck
08-01-2008, 02:19 AM
Originally posted by FoolTrottel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">twisted the joystick

Could it be the rudder control itself?
Acting up a bit? Spiking? Logitech?

Maybe reduce the rudder's sensitivity? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glad Im not the only one that has noticed the Logicrap sticks tendancy to have a really poor rotation potentiometer!

antiStalin
08-22-2008, 12:29 PM
Dear All,

Considering a moderator's perspective, I'm going to change my name to "Juutilainen". I apologize for any inconvenience that this may have caused.

"As soon as one forgives oneself, one begins to get lazy. Be alert at every moment." Master Cheng Yen

mortoma
08-22-2008, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
Its not really that hard to takeoff from a normal runway even in a real aircraft. Oh I dunno, I have a few hundred hours in single engine GA planes and I would not want to just get in a P-40 or P-51 and try to take it off!! I'd be scared to death and for good reason. Learning to fly powerful and advanced aircraft is something to be learned slowly and gradually. You don't go straight from a Cessna 152 to a Boeing 747 ya know. Or even straight from a 152 to a turboprop.

mllaneza
08-24-2008, 11:16 AM
Sounds like you're getting ground loop. In my experience, that's usually caused by accelerating too quickly. Bring it up to 100% slowly and only after you have a good, straight roll going. Remember that gyroscopic effects are cause by changes in forces - change things slowly and you won't warp the plane around so badly.

Also try steering with ailerons on the ground. The wing with the dropped flap has more drag and so you yaw to that side, the up aileron isn't in the critical air flow so there's less drag. Incidentally, this is how you stall the inside wing on a tight turn - too much aileron stalls the wing and it drops.

JollyB
08-30-2008, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by Zeus-cat:
It sounds like you are oversteering too. If the plane veers off in one direction, use GENTLE, CONTROLLED inputs to bring it back in line. If you slam the rudder in one direction you will then veer the other way and then you will have to slam the rudder the opposite way. You will end up doing this all the way down the runway.

Hello , total newbie, just installed PF+FB+AEP, recently obtained, no updates as yet nor do I know WHERE & HOW to get them. I d/l ur pgm "301
-Straight from the Farm" & nothing appears under Training or Single Missions?? Would LOVE to obtain this instructional program, request assistance, pls.

Cheers,

JollyB

M_Gunz
08-30-2008, 07:24 PM
You won't get up to what we've had a few years now until you get IL2:1946.
Sorry but there's a reason they sell the old at extremely low prices.

1946 will run you maybe a whole $20 plus shipping but on Amazon you spend $5+ more on a super
saver item and the shipping is free too.

Get the disks and you get the extras plus able to reload if you have a problem --though--
I run Nero DriveSpeed to slow the player down (silent setting) and not spin shatter the disk.
Of course if you search off the forum you might find a way around that whole problem.

JollyB
08-30-2008, 08:24 PM
M_Gunz, thx 4 ur reply, as a newbie, I'll stick with what I have until I learn HOW to fly, as I searched on M4T for instructional pgms for newbies, I came across "2 minutes to action" which I obtained & downloaded, & presently am enjoying the missions.
Presently am searching for Instructional missions for cadets(beginners). Zeus-cat's "Straight from the Farm" is ideal, however, am not having any luck running the missions. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Should any1 have any recommendations/advice, I'd appreciate it greatly. Thx.

JollyB
09-01-2008, 07:05 PM
Hello fellow virtual pilots http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Perused this forum & FOUND what answered MOST of my questions in Bearcat's superb guide: "The
Nuggets Guide" & jayhall0315's "Newbies Guide to IL2 Online Dogfighting"

Much thx to the BOTH of you for a job extremely well done http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif There may very well be more that I haven't mentioned, didn't mean to slight any1, however, there's a LOT to read. Beginning my studies now!

Btw any Sgle Missions for P38s & where can I find them? or LA5FN, anybody? TY everybody.

M_Gunz
09-01-2008, 07:31 PM
Jolly, you should be told that after AEP there was a major improvement to the flight modeling
when some of the work being done on SOW was tested out through the IL2 engine. The upshot is
that the planes handle a bit differently as to rudder and torque. The last real change came
with 4.071, IIRC, in an improvement in the ways controls are handled. What this means to you
is to expect to learn more when you do change over but hey you probably won't get yourself
too deeply set before upgrading. SOW may come out sooner than expected which will take us to
the next level anyway though we've been told that the base FM we have is pretty much 'it'.

My own feeling is that the $50 I spent on 1946 when it came out was money well spent just for
the handling improvements. I'd already had the new level FM before then but it was harder to
actually fly than since.

AEP is easier to fly than 4.0-any in that it has some sort of keep-you-straighter elements to
the FM that were noted by real pilots including flight instructors. The upshot was that you
could not hold a stall and there are certain other fringe oddities we no longer have though
it must be stated that what we have is not perfect and nothing like this that runs on a PC
-can- be perfect so it's a matter of degree and we all have to settle or quit.

I was happy with the original IL2 which is way, way less than AEP!

JollyB
09-01-2008, 07:49 PM
M_Gunz http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thx much for ur kindest & instructional input, I most certainly shall consider ur advice http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

M_Gunz
09-01-2008, 08:52 PM
Really that's 99% FYI only, what you want to or should do ... I dunno, really!