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stukapilot87
04-19-2007, 12:18 AM
Hi all

I have try to find some informations about BK 3.7 and I find complete Rechlin's test for LW bordwaffen [heer is http://rapidshare.com/files/22379574/_aviation__Luftwaf...36-1945__german_.pdf (http://rapidshare.com/files/22379574/_aviation__Luftwaffe_WW2_ammunition_manual_1936-1945__german_.pdf) ]and I think, BK 3.7 canon could penetrate side or turret armor of T-34, because BK 3.7 could penetrate abot 110-130mm armor (100kg/mm*2 tenacity)and acording to De Mare's figure BK 3.7 can penetrate about 71mm amrmor with 180kg/mm*2 tenacity(same armor as has T-34) from 200m distance . T-34 has 45mm thick armor.

p.s sory for my bad english

tools4foolsA
04-19-2007, 04:09 AM
Distance and angle is very important, too.

If you 87 flys in in a shallow angle it takes some of the sloped armor effect off the T-34 but not all. 45mm of t-34 turret armor is maybe 60something (or even more, just a rough guess) mm armor horizontal equivalent)
If 200m penetration is 71mm at 0 degrees, then yes,maybe it just could penetrate. But at 300 probalby no more.
(All rough guesses here to show how much it is on the edge.)

Mr. Rudel recommended attacking from rear anyway (but then on T-34 that does not make much different as HULL armor is the same all around).

But where is the problem, not possible to kill T-34? I think I was always able to do so with Ju87G?
*****

ELKASKONE
04-19-2007, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by stukapilot87:
Hi all

I have try to find some informations about BK 3.7 and I find complete Rechlin's test for LW bordwaffen [heer is http://rapidshare.com/files/22379574/_aviation__Luftwaf...36-1945__german_.pdf (http://rapidshare.com/files/22379574/_aviation__Luftwaffe_WW2_ammunition_manual_1936-1945__german_.pdf) ]and I think, BK 3.7 canon could penetrate side or turret armor of T-34, because BK 3.7 could penetrate abot 110-130mm armor (100kg/mm*2 tenacity)and acording to De Mare's figure BK 3.7 can penetrate about 71mm amrmor with 180kg/mm*2 tenacity(same armor as has T-34) from 200m distance . T-34 has 45mm thick armor.

p.s sory for my bad english

Thank you for posting!
Very intresting data!

joeap
04-19-2007, 02:15 PM
But where is the problem, not possible to kill T-34? I think I was always able to do so with Ju87G?
*****

I agree, what was the point of this thread??

mandrill7
04-19-2007, 04:13 PM
Hull top and turret roof armour was considerably thinner. If hit from above with 37mm, you could penetrate.

FluffyDucks2
04-19-2007, 05:34 PM
Why bother with the 37mm?? when 12.7mm(=.50) is plenty? all you gotta do is bounce the rounds off the road and you got dead T-34s http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Plus you got LOADS of 12.7mm ammo in the 190 and 109, think of how many T-34s you could knock out with that load! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

edited to rectify error http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

tigertalon
04-19-2007, 05:52 PM
It's 12.7mm not 13.7. Germans used 13mm (13.0), not 12.7mm. The round was 13x64B which is considerably weaker that either american 12,7x99 .50 cal or russian 12,7x108 UB ammo. So one could only bounce them to destroy early T34s, not late ones or KV1s I reckon. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

stukapilot87
04-19-2007, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by joeap:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
But where is the problem, not possible to kill T-34? I think I was always able to do so with Ju87G?
*****

I agree, what was the point of this thread?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

nowadays in il2game, you can destroy T-34 by hit only in rack over engine of T-34, in real, BK 3.7 can destroy T-34 by hit to side armor or turet side armor, of course you needs hit some vurneable thigs like ammunitin,engine or fuel system

ImpStarDuece
04-20-2007, 12:22 AM
T-34/76 Turret armour:

Front: 40-52 mm, plus gun mantlet
Sides: 52 mm @ 30 degrees = ~60 mm
Rear: 52 mm @ 30 degrees = ~60 mm
Top: 20-25 mm

Hull Armour:

Front: 45mm @ 50 degrees = ~70 mm
Sides: 40mm @ 40 degrees = ~53 mm
Rear: 52mm @ 48 degrees = ~67 mm

T-34/85

Turret:

Front: 90mm + gun mantlet
Sides: 75mm @ 20 degrees = ~81 mm
Rear: 52 @ 15 degrees = ~55 mm

Hull as T-34/76


So, depending on your range, a reasonably tough nut to crack, with the thinnest point being the hull sides.

Must give it a go when I get home, and see what I can kill.

ImpStarDuece
04-20-2007, 07:26 AM
Ok, I've done some quick initial tests against the T-34/76 in the Full Mission Builder with Acrade Mode on, so i could see my shot placement.

I tried the Ju-87G-1 from a range of angles and found out you can reliably kill the T-34/76 with the BK 3.7.

It is effective against the both the turret and hull sides and rear, but it is very difficult to kill from the front, especially against the front hull.

General impression, after about 80 runs, is that it usually takes three solid hits (hull or turret centre) to guarentee a kill on a T-34. Typically I required two hits to kill a tank, but some survived four hits and one survived five.

Hull hits kill more reliably than turret hits.

Angle seems to be very important in making a kill.

When running in directly facing a tank (ie direct flank, front or rear shot) it usually took 2-3 salvos to guarantee a kill. So I usually had about 4-6 kills per run (allowing for misses ect it probably drops to 3-5 per run)

When running in at a 45 degree angle it usually took 3-5 salvos to gaurentee kill, so i had about 2-4 kills.

Kills are harder to achieve at shallow dive angles 10-15 degrees and also at high dive angles (greater than about 40 degrees).


My tips for killing T-34s with Stukas:

1. Approach perpendicular (at a 90 degree angle) to the sides or rear of the tank.

2. Approach dive should be about 20-30 degrees

3. Aim for the top of the turret, as my initial shots often seemed to hit the road wheels

4. Set convergence to about 275m. I found I was often firing very late, and this setting gives you a relatively good chance of hitting the target over the 450m-100m range.

5. Be prepared to first 2-3 salvos at least at each target to ensure a kill.

6. Dont be suprised if you miss a lot (on my first 10 runs I averaged 1 - 2 kills with about 25% accuracy)

tools4foolsA
04-20-2007, 10:22 AM
Thanks for the test, ImpStarDuece, that's about what my experience was as well.

2-3 hits required is fine too, not every penetration automatically results in a knocked out tank.

So BK 3,7 works perfectly fine.
****

BBB_Hyperion
04-20-2007, 11:38 AM
Every hit can take out the tank under right conditions aim !

tools4foolsA
04-20-2007, 11:58 AM
Every hit can take out the tank under right conditions aim !

Not quite sure what you mean.
Sure one hit and penetration CAN take out a tank - but it is not 100% guaranteed that it actually will take out the tank. It might only do some damage. Then more hits are required...

The size of the round, the amount of energy it has after penetration and size of HE filler (if any in the first place) all are variables which decide if tank is detroyed or not after being hit and penetrated...
*****

Kurfurst__
04-20-2007, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by tools4foolsA:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Every hit can take out the tank under right conditions aim !

Not quite sure what you mean.
Sure one hit and penetration CAN take out a tank - but it is not 100% guaranteed that it actually will take out the tank. It might only do some damage. Then more hits are required...

The size of the round, the amount of energy it has after penetration and size of HE filler (if any in the first place) all are variables which decide if tank is detroyed or not after being hit and penetrated...
***** </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed. The 3,7 cm rounds were tungsten-cored subcaliber rounds, effectively we're talking of 15-20 mm metal darts penetrating into the tank, spraying around some molten metal from the armor, and may or may not hit something vital. It's somewhat similiar to anti-tank rifles, which could penetrate into the tank, but were bloody ineffective actually killing it.

I presume the internal damage model of the tank is very simple, if existing at all, given the nature of the sim.

FPSOLKOR
04-20-2007, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by stukapilot87:
Hi all

I have try to find some informations about BK 3.7 and I find complete Rechlin's test for LW bordwaffen [heer is http://rapidshare.com/files/22379574/_aviation__Luftwaf...36-1945__german_.pdf (http://rapidshare.com/files/22379574/_aviation__Luftwaffe_WW2_ammunition_manual_1936-1945__german_.pdf) ]and I think, BK 3.7 canon could penetrate side or turret armor of T-34, because BK 3.7 could penetrate abot 110-130mm armor (100kg/mm*2 tenacity)and acording to De Mare's figure BK 3.7 can penetrate about 71mm amrmor with 180kg/mm*2 tenacity(same armor as has T-34) from 200m distance . T-34 has 45mm thick armor.

p.s sory for my bad english

No point for argument. The gun and shell was able to penetrate the armor, but was the pilot and gun carrying platform well suited for this job? NOt necesserely. Everything depends on lining between seat and steering wheel...

Sjeler
04-20-2007, 06:33 PM
Could this be from 3,7?
http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/8460/sowietischepanzerbb8.jpg
And from Rudels book, he always talks about setting thank on fire. Thats what he probably considered as destroyed tank.

csThor
04-20-2007, 10:34 PM
I'd rather say that looks like 7,5 cm hits.

BBB_Hyperion
04-23-2007, 09:22 AM
Check both ju87g tracks. Aim at turret or engine section you don't need more than 2 rounds for a tank.
http://rapidshare.com/files/27504446/ju87attackmethods.zip.html

Main Problem is 2d Damagemodel so side attacks don't work that good.

When we see some real ju87g footage we see a lower attack angle but didn't see any results on the tanks so who knows if that was really enough.

tagTaken2
04-24-2007, 04:24 AM
I've never found the German 3.7cm as effective as the Russian one. Maybe it's the higher rate of fire, but I never have a problem smoking tanks with Sturmovik, Yak, P-39 etc. Evidence of bias..?

FPSOLKOR
04-24-2007, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by tagTaken2:
I've never found the German 3.7cm as effective as the Russian one. Maybe it's the higher rate of fire, but I never have a problem smoking tanks with Sturmovik, Yak, P-39 etc. Evidence of bias..?

Most likely due to recoil you were never able to hit tank twice... Or did not hit it at all.