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Pirschjaeger
11-09-2007, 07:33 PM
In the past the issue of pirated versions of the IL-2 series has come up and usually turned into a somewhat heated discussion, ending with a thread being locked. Having lived on both sides of the world, East and West, I've often been confused by some of the replies from the western, especially American, posters.

I can remember being flamed for buying a pirated English copy of IL-2 here in China because I couldn't find a licensed English copy. But nothing was said when I mentioned I later bought 5 licensed copies once they had become available. Why 5 copies? The answer is simple; the game makes a great gift and I was hoping to get more friends involved. Had I not bought the pirated copy in the beginning, I wouldn't have bought the 5 licensed copies. That's not a justification for buying a the first copy, but rather the reality of what often happens.

I'd also like to mention that when I finally did get the licensed English version of IL-2 AEP, the cd had faults and I was forced to either travel 10,000 mile return it for a replacement or use a crack file from a pirated copy. Guess what I did. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I've also been flamed for making another statement regarding this issue. I said that the producers profited from piracy and that the use "piracy" as an excuse to drive up the prices. Not only that, it is a testing ground for the product itself.

Any movie and any software is first available here in China, before the release. Does this mean every movie producer or software company has someone on the inside who steals the product to sell abroad? Then the root of the perceived problem would be the producers themselves, not China.

Why is it that up to now, I've had access to almost every version of the IL-2 series before the release? Could this be beta.5?

Well, I'm still sticking to my guns and now there is finally an unbiased report which makes everything quite clear.

"Intellectual Property Piracy: Perception and Reality in China, the United States, and Elsewhere " can be found here at SSRN (http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1022243) and downloaded in PDF format.

Here's the abstract:

Abstract:
This article is intended as a counterpoint to the all-too-frequent portrayal of China as the world's leading violator of intellectual property rights. In fact, by many measures, China, taken as a whole, is not the leading violator. Some measures show China as the leading violator only because they are aggregates, and do not take into account China's size. When figures are adjusted for population, China's rates of intellectual property violation are lower than those of many other countries, including the United States.

The article first looks at examples of the current round of political and media China-bashing. It then examines figures on international movie piracy provided by the Motion Picture Association (the international counterpart of the Motion Picture Association of America) and compares those figures to the populations of the countries involved. It concludes that the problem of movie piracy is more severe in the U.S. than in China, possibly because of greater broadband access, and more severe still in other countries, including France, Spain, and the United Kingdom.

END

It's a good read and for anyone interested in the issue of piracy and how it not only affects you, the consumer, but also the IL-2 series, it is in the least informative and an eye-opener.

This could turn into an interesting discussion or a locked thread. It's up to you guys.

Mods, if it does start to become a flamer, give no quarter and lock it please.

Fritz

JG51_Rudel
11-09-2007, 07:38 PM
China seems to be the the place where you can find anything pirated from all parts of the world weather its movies to video games, you name it.

Pirschjaeger
11-09-2007, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by JG51_Rudel:
China seems to be the the place .....

You said much more than you realize. "Seems" is the keyword and the report shows why.

This is a common case where people don't put 2 and 2 together. For example, so many believe the Great Wall can be seen by an astronaut orbiting the Earth. I've been to the Wall many times and no where is it as wide as a common 4 lane highway. Can we see an 8 lane highway from space?

China, per capita, has one of the highest poverty rates in the world. People without education, medical care, and daily food normally don't buy TVs, DVD players, and computers or have the net. Although is is estimated that the Chinese have 400 million TVs, that number says nothing relative to piracy. You need DVD players, computers, and the net to be involved in piracy.

Look at the report. I think you'll be amazed. The biggest markets for piracy would be where pirated material can be used. The developed countries are the biggest supporters of piracy.

The reasons you pay so much for a movie or game DVD are based on lies from both the politicians and the producers themselves.

Fritz

Dagnabit
11-09-2007, 09:04 PM
Hey Pirschjaeger,
If I had been in your shoes, far from other sources I may have done the same as you and gotten a pirated copy too. Not that I am trying to promote piracy but it isnt that big of a deal that people should be flaming you for it. Dont sweat the pontificators they go away if you dont feed them. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
But I DO have a bone to pick with the Chinese. Back in the 50s I came up with an invention that they reverse engineered and stole from me....Did youn ever see the bamboo back scratchers with with the fancy massage device on the end, with a little hand shaped scratcher on the other end? Yup!! That was me. I coulda been a millionaire.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif
Dag

Waldo.Pepper
11-09-2007, 09:40 PM
bamboo back scratchers

That was you!?? My Wife has finger nails like a Badger, and I still use one of those! Its great!

Cajun76
11-09-2007, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by Dagnabit:
Hey Pirschjaeger,
If I had been in your shoes, far from other sources I may have done the same as you and gotten a pirated copy too. Not that I am trying to promote piracy but it isnt that big of a deal that people should be flaming you for it. Dont sweat the pontificators they go away if you dont feed them. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
But I DO have a bone to pick with the Chinese. Back in the 50s I came up with an invention that they reverse engineered and stole from me....Did youn ever see the bamboo back scratchers with with the fancy massage device on the end, with a little hand shaped scratcher on the other end? Yup!! That was me. I coulda been a millionaire.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif
Dag

The Chinese invented bamboo 5000 years ago.

I have one of those on my desk, I'm going to use it right after I hit "Post Now" and congratulate myself for contributing to the forum, and neither you nor the Chinese will get any royalties from ME!

Pirschjaeger
11-09-2007, 10:05 PM
Wow! It all makes sense now. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

The Chinese word for "back scratcher" is "**** Na Bi Tu".

Another solved mystery unsolved. It's a ubizoo trademark. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Actually Dagnabit, I don't blame those who flame me. I know where they come from and I know what they're told. But I guess after over 10 years of being a teacher, teaching, for me, has become somewhat habitual.

Seeing people being informatively mislead is a pet peeve of mine. It's no surprise I'm annoyed on a daily basis. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

But back to piracy, I thinks it's rather interesting that everyone I know wants the licensed copies for the packaging. I was so happy to finally get my US copy of AEP in its proper case, even if the content doesn't work.

Fritz

LEXX_Luthor
11-09-2007, 10:25 PM
Thanks Pirsch!

Some of what you say always gets more clear when things like StarForce and Sony come along.

The makers of Galactic Civilizations use no copy protection, but depend on some form of proof of purchase to download free upgrades, and they refused business with StarForce. Then somebody running the StarForce forums became so angry they poasted links to pirated copies of GalCiv on the StarForce forum.

LEBillfish
11-09-2007, 10:36 PM
Ok, now lets put this in some consequential terms.......

The statements as to piracy, copyright/patent infringement and legitimate companies products being copied and sold as knock offs is a VERY real one......To state it is not, or that this area of the world was not the leader in this trade is simply incorrect. It matters little if they "use" the products, it is never the less theaft of others intellectual labors that are stolen. Be it software, medications or blue jeans, someone else made the "investment" in time and money to create and market them....YET, by simply copying anothers hard efforts, then mass producing them at low labor wage costs, anothers efforts SRE stolen, and often their own hopes for making a living......

Such reports are made for one (1), a single reason..........It is well known and agreed that China WILL within the near future (some estimates around 20 years) take the WORLDS leadership role in all aspects...Politically, militarily, financially, etc. just like the U.S. has held for perhaps 100 years, the British before that, and so on.

Now contrary to what many shallow people believe, power and authority does NOT mean you can do anything you want and all others must simply endure it....It means great responsibility, and leading by example, risking self for what is right and just even if it hurts ones self. It means bearing the burdon of others suffering, and being that which most others aspire to by BEING that example of right and good..........and stealing, harming others, destroying lives in some cases is not it.

So, though China may take the lead, it can be to where the world gladly welcomes it OR where it is fought against tooth and nail in no doubt ugly and possibly violent exchanges........

For this change to be welcomed, REQUIRES that the injustices the government has turned a blind eye toward in the name of "harming our enemies the west", which turned into "we have better things to worry about", finally to simple apathy to change....To be that leader of the world DEMANDS that not only do they prosper, YET that they come on par with WORLD acceptable standards as to ethics, human rights and justice.

SO to justify such transgressions simply states whomever wrote that piece if the tone of that regions people, that they are NOT ready to take that leadership role......So lets hope for all our sake yet mostly theirs, some reason and fairness takes hold vs. simple excuses.

Pirschjaeger
11-09-2007, 10:39 PM
Lexx, I hadn't heard of that one but it doesn't surprise me.

"You know, da neighborhood is full of dangerous individuals. For a small monthly fee, me and my brothers Tony, Luigi, and Gino will keep you safe."

Ha ha ha http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
11-09-2007, 10:46 PM
So, LeBillfish, after reading the report, are you saying it is wrong?

If so, based on what? Details please.

Fritz

JG51_Rudel
11-09-2007, 11:08 PM
Im with LEBillfish, just because people don't buy the pirated software, movies etc. doesn't mean that its not going on.

Pirschjaeger
11-09-2007, 11:27 PM
Hmmm, it seems a few people didn't read the report. It doesn't say no one is buying, quite the contrary. The report shows "who" is buying it. If you only read the replies and not the report, you'll be confused as to what the thread is about.

Fritz

LEBillfish
11-09-2007, 11:31 PM
Yes, and please don't tell me you found it anything more then sidestepping semantics & double talk to simply try and cloud the issues and make China look the victim while trying to sway U.S. voters from certain political candidates.......

Pirschjaeger
11-09-2007, 11:44 PM
Ha ha ha, China a victim? Sway American voters?

Sorry LeBillfish, you have me confused with someone else. I have nothing to do with American and am known for being quite anti-China.

But, now I can understand your previous post. Please do not bring political agendas into this thread. The politics mentioned in the report are politics in general. It cites the politics regarding this issue, in many countries.

The reason I am posting this was made clear. Please don't attempt to change it to something else.

Mods, if this is made into something it shouldn't be, please lock it immediately.

Fritz

Carella_768
11-09-2007, 11:49 PM
Pitrsch,
i totally agree with your first post and I certainly would not flame you. I have been living in South East Asia for the last 5 years (Thailand and Malaysia) and the same apply here. I bought there legal copies of the IL2 series, but it took me ages to get them, and the pirates copies were there long before for around 1 or 2 euros. I really require nerves of steel when you go to your game shop at the IT wall and go out without your most anticipated game and see that you can find the pirate copy 10 meters away.
Also here, most of the games/software/movies are not unavailable. and in the case of Malaysia censured when they are, so the choice is easily made. I must confess that even though i have been faithful to the IL2 and BOB-WOV series it has not been the same for other games/movies.
Recently both Thai and Malaysian governments under the pressure of western countries have taken measures against piracy. In Malaysia they even brought fake DVD sniffer dogs from Australia to detect pirates, and they frequently made the headlines (press is censured too here, so news are a bit boring). In Thailand the measures have been accompanied with actions in collaboration with the software industry to bring down the prices of games and softwares. I could buy then each of the IL2 series games or any other game for around 500 bath (roughly 12 USD at the time), so if your pirate copy included several CDs, it made more sense to buy the legal copy. The drawback for me was the manual in Thai. They also emphasize the education. The strange thing is that in Malaysia the same does not apply, I bought there my IL2-1946 game for around 120 RM (around 1200 Bath, 36 USD now). The Thai game was locally produced, but the Malaysian game was imported from Europe and I had to order it 2 weeks in advance. The distributor was the same, selling in Thailand, Malaysia and Singapore and did not understand the price difference. In KL, the guy from the game shop also asked me if I wanted a pirate one or the original. Malaysia has taken a repressive approach (and not the price cut/education)and most of the illegal shops have closed down in IT malls and tourist spot now. Local people have switched to file downloading now.
SEA have been seen as a piracy heaven but I do not think it so. it is easy to spot fake DVDs stalls but many people in Europe are downloading files from the internet (which I don't) and you can buy fake bags, clothes in South of France and Italy. In the region also the main population could not afford the original products anyway, so I do not think that piracy there is really competing with the game/movie industry. I prefer to buy original games as they come in a nice box, can be patched, and encourage the industry, but prices can be very discouraging in Europe for example.
here my 0.02 Ringit contribution to this post

Carella_768
11-09-2007, 11:50 PM
One last thing,
I have bought locally produced original DVDs in my last trip to Beijing, and the quality was horrible.

LEXX_Luthor
11-09-2007, 11:55 PM
Interesting and informative poast Carella. Thanks. I've never been outside of Ussia, so I entirely "depend" on MSM (Main Stream Media).

LEBillfish
11-10-2007, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Ha ha ha, China a victim? Sway American voters?

Sorry LeBillfish, you have me confused with someone else. I have nothing to do with American and am known for being quite anti-China.

But, now I can understand your previous post. Please do not bring political agendas into this thread. The politics mentioned in the report are politics in general. It cites the politics regarding this issue, in many countries.

The reason I am posting this was made clear. Please don't attempt to change it to something else.

Mods, if this is made into something it shouldn't be, please lock it immediately.

Fritz


Yes, as you asked about the report as it is NOT my agenda.....Just because the report justifies your actions or those you'd like to support, does not make it right. Yet frankly that's all the report was doing was spending time making a sound effort to reference numerous other books and reports to make itself seem credible....Yet in the end its clear intention to make current western views on far east IP right infringement "think twice/hesitate" yet all in the end to promote its own agenda pushing X candidate.

Please do not tell me you take it at face value. In kind taking "bits" of other documents and neither quoting in part let alone fully yet putting your take on it a very common method to look as though your views are supported by many credible others, hence trying to make yourself yet more so your goals seem so.

(c'monnnnnnn..."Based on population purchases per capita"....Gimme a break, that's like saying there is less crime in the US compared to Antarctica based on population levels and incidents)

Sorry, not buying it......Doubt you are either frankly.

I stand by my statements....The governments of Eastern powers must begin better enforcement of what has been a long running white collar crime if they wish to take the leadership role I spoke of.

It is one issue among many....YET....On the end they WILL make those efforts and many others, and once on par take that leadership role.

Pirschjaeger
11-10-2007, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by Carella_768:
One last thing,
I have bought locally produced original DVDs in my last trip to Beijing, and the quality was horrible.

True, the quality ids horrible but here's a funny thing; they play perfectly on a Chinese made DVD player. I've often said you can insert a piece of toast into a Chinese DVD player and watch it get cold on TV. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
11-10-2007, 01:57 AM
LeBillfish, politics aside, the reason we have to pay such a high price for things like DVDs and movies is in large part due to the propaganda from the industry itself.

This relates to both you and I, as consumers, directly since we, as the consumers, are at the bottom of the corporate food chain. It is you and I that pay the price.

Can you explain why software and movies are free to download before the release? I'm not talking about betas either. Is there a Chinese spy in every software company and every motion picture producer? C'mon, Chinese are the worst spies in the world.

You also have to consider that I am not polarized in my opinions and views. There are two sides to every coin. China is guilty of IP piracy and would be even more guiltier if they had the means. But as hard as they try, they are not so successful. I am interested in what you have to say. Could you please back up your argument with something.

Although the current political bashing is mentioned, it is not mentioned for the sake of politics. But it needs to be mentioned as it is a part of the problem, like it or not. The conclusion is just what the title implies, that there is a common misconception about the whole issue. There's no need to swing the political stick, especially since American politics affects me only indirectly, and barely at that.

Fritz

DuxCorvan
11-10-2007, 03:29 AM
AS for Spain: I'm usually seen as an idiot among my relations because I'm the ONLY guy I know that pays for music, games and movies. Everybody here downloads everything, and Author rights are seen like an abuse -despite harsh laws to protect them. To be honest in this, is not only not seen as good, but well the contrary.

WTE_Ibis
11-10-2007, 04:20 AM
Quote:
"Power and authority does NOT mean you can do anything you want and all others must simply endure it....It means great responsibility, and leading by example, risking self for what is right and just even if it hurts ones self. It means bearing the burdon of others suffering, and being that which most others aspire to by BEING that example of right and good..........and stealing, harming others, destroying lives in some cases is not it".
============================================

Agreed, and some countries need to realise this. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

.

.

LEBillfish
11-10-2007, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by WTE_Ibis:
Quote:
"Power and authority........"
============================================

Agreed, and some countries need to realise this. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Your dig aside.......currently most countries no doubt your own as well....It's a simple concept, and throughout history all nations have had great leaders who set outstanding examples for others to follow......

So to NOT makes it simply deliberate.

LEBillfish
11-10-2007, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
LeBillfish, politics aside, the reason we have to pay such a high price for things like DVDs and movies is in large part due to the propaganda from the industry itself.

This relates to both you and I, as consumers, directly since we, as the consumers, are at the bottom of the corporate food chain. It is you and I that pay the price.

Can you explain why software and movies are free to download before the release? I'm not talking about betas either. Is there a Chinese spy in every software company and every motion picture producer? C'mon, Chinese are the worst spies in the world.

That's a VERY over simplified and narrow view on it simply talking of conspiracy.....No doubt business and governments use such tactics to their advantage...Yet I'd doubt in most cases it is generated by them.

Fact of the matter is in another over simplification, the prices are at what the market can bear....Hence 1946 selling for $40 the first week, and by the 3rd it's at $20.

In reality you'll find that many products are sold at a loss...Like a new car, look at capital equipment costs, labor, distribution, sales, management, material, etc...Pretty soon it's clear that an automobile should cost $100,000.00 for the bottom of the line....Yet it doesn't for all else that one vehicle generates in jobs, post sale-sales, etc..

As to piracy/knock-offs/etc. however.....We're quite often not talking about MIcrosoft size corporations (which btw does give away software to some to force all others to purchase it to stay compatible)...We're often talking about small businesses whos success or failure hinges on a single products release they have years vested in....

Those business are quite simply killed often by such activity. Now, most piracy does NOT come in the form of some evil black market. In actuallity in many cases you'll find it working like this (using software as an example, other items entail all but the final stage):

"Bob pirate steals a single disk of a game from the pressing factory he works at/or from a hijacked shipment...EIther himself or selling it to others it gets replicated, and distributed to less reputable sources to be sold at a VERY reduced price to inspire resellers to do so, and customers to buy (thinking they're committing "gray crimes")....

Yet such distribution networks are limited, so the real damage is done when Tommy "I want to be admired" Takes his pirated copy then copies it often for download, and gives it away for free.....

The last and most damaging aspect above cannot happen if 1. Bob doesn't steal it 2. The company handling it is more responsible. 3. The Governments make it a very prosecuted crime hence simply not worth the risk to either distributors or retailers......As Tommy the needy tard will do anything for aclaim, and he is of all races and nationalities, insecurity knowing no bounds."


You also have to consider that I am not polarized in my opinions and views. There are two sides to every coin. China is guilty of IP piracy and would be even more guiltier if they had the means. But as hard as they try, they are not so successful. I am interested in what you have to say. Could you please back up your argument with something.

I don't have to spend hours researching documents to present to back up my argument as you and others in this thread have already admitted to it......You made the stements not I, yet then tried to justify it and then cloud the issue with conspiracy theories and so on....

The East has openly done so for many years this including Japan, yet under the logic of "we don't hold to the same rules and laws as you".....However, this goes on in EVERY COUNTRY. If they have manufacturing and means of getting IP, then someone there will try and cheat the system to make their own fast buck morality in short supply.....The less active a nations policing of it, the more prevalent it is....YET....The East due to population alone has been the leader for some time, as that is the key...Automated manufacturing ability the determining factor, those countries with more hands on/less equipment making it so anyone can do it, once investing in equipment fewer are likely to risk that capital investment for a petty crime, and people job wise are easily expendable.


Although the current political bashing is mentioned, it is not mentioned for the sake of politics. But it needs to be mentioned as it is a part of the problem, like it or not.

It's not bashing, it's how it is, and more so is stated in the HOPE that having the opportunity at great power, those nations take up the yoke responsibly......Piracy a minor issue compared to many others there. Yet I believe not only MUST the governments and attitudes change, I believe they will be and are slowly being embraced by those nations as their is no reason to not care......So it is hope and faith that a current long running situation corrects itself, not simply pointing a finger.


The conclusion is just what the title implies, that there is a common misconception about the whole issue. There's no need to swing the political stick, especially since American politics affects me only indirectly, and barely at that.

Fritz

Honestly....It was you swinging the political stick of "YOU'RE all the big bad wolf not me or us"....You just picked a poor document to try and justify some initial actions you took....Yet clearly either knew was wrong so wanted to pay penance, yet it still bothering you so now trying to justify it.

I'll always stand up to wrongs, always challenge justification of them, yet frankly I have no idea why you brought this up as its long forgotten and clearly by all forgiven.....So perhaps the real step here would be looking in a mirror and saying "You're not bad, just don't do it again".

IMLTHO

heywooood
11-10-2007, 09:15 AM
I love teh Billfish http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

Pirschjaeger
11-10-2007, 09:38 AM
Hi LeBillfish,

I'm sorry if I'm not going to spend the time quoting and analyzing everything you said, bit by bit. It's 12:30 am here.

From what I see from your posts, you see this as being more political. Well, we are in and from different societies so maybe where you are, it is more political. From my point of view it's just a bandwagon that opportunistic politicians jumped on.

I don't think the problem originated with the producers either, but I do think it is being fueled by them today. Maybe it's also a weapon against small businesses wielded by big businesses. After all, companies like MS can take a hit where little ones can't.

But perhaps we can agree to disagree. I do agree with a few things you've mentioned but disagree with others, for example your negativity towards the report. I'd still like to know why you think it's wrong (facts rather than opinions).

There are two sides to every coin.

Maybe I'm wrong, but if I read between the lines, it seems your view me as an America-basher. If so, then you either haven't read the report or don't understand it. It may have been written by an American but it's not exclusive to America.

Goodnight,
Fritz

Xiolablu3
11-10-2007, 09:54 AM
I admit I DID pirate one version of the IL2 series - the Pe2 adddon.

I have no credit card, no way to buy online. I didnt want to be forced out of my favourite game, and when someone gave me a link, I reasoned as soon as its available in the shops (if ever) I will buy it.

As such I bought IL2 1946 as soon as it came out. (bargain BTW).

For anyone doubting my story here is my IL2 1946 number :-

MADE IN EUROPE
IL2 STURMOVIK 1946
0814949 UK PC DVD ROM

3 307210 243270


Although friends sharing games is not necesarily a good thing. The real danger is done by people selling pirated copies.

LEBillfish
11-10-2007, 10:36 AM
Hon did you even read the report fully with an open minded/unbiased consideration of it?

Lets look at the last bit of the summation:

"To a certain extent, the problem may correct itself: Some countries, like China,
may find that they have a strong stake not only in enforcing IP laws but in being seen to do so. The current overall piracy rate (as a percentage of total domestic sales) in China is
high, but total pirate sales are falling and should continue to fall, while licensed sales
continue to increase. This attacks the piracy percentage problem from both ends at once.
While there will be some lag, public perception should improve as China's piracy
percentage falls. However, even with low per capita piracy rates, China's total piracy
level will remain high, because it is the world's most populous country. In addition, the
effect of increased IP protection in China will be to move the problems of real and
perceived piracy to other countries, like Vietnam and Ukraine. The problem will remain
unless and until responsible commentators restructure the discourse to reflect reality,
reason and accuracy rather than media scare-mongering or political vote-chasing."

That follows exactly what I have been saying....YET....If you read through the balance the document is NOT fair trade inspired, nor even a campaign for East or West....It is a campaigning platform for U.S. political agenda for the upcoming election. That in itself in my opinion and I'm sure anyone elses understanding U.S. campaigning politics makes it instantly discounted.


The real point here however is "Why would you even want to discuss this"....Americas views we all know are changing or the East would still be far behind technology wise and not rapidly catching up. More products are bought from Eastern manufacturers then U.S. based here, and clearly relations and aspects in all ways are changing already..........This also goes for the author of the document, like simply scolding a child for something it is already correcting ten fold and clearly is on a good path.

So in the end it is simply political campaigning for the author.....Yet your reason eludes me. If you're looking to be pardoned for some past transgression know you already have by all here.....So this issue I suspect only lies within self.

Yet, no amount of justification ever makes a wrong right....Just don't do it again all I can suggest.

Not going to grant this topic anymore time then I have, as honestly it's simply discussing that the sky is blue and all saying so.

M_Gunz
11-10-2007, 11:12 AM
Someone in China wants actions in China diluted by the huge population, but the largest part
of the population have little or nothing to do with the piracy do they? Except to support
it in the market and how many have more than TV or stereo? How many not even that?

It's worse than damn lies, it's statistics!

Pirschjaeger
11-10-2007, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Hon did you even read the report fully with an open minded/unbiased consideration of it?

...It is a campaigning platform for U.S. political agenda for the upcoming election. That in itself in my opinion and I'm sure anyone elses understanding U.S. campaigning politics makes it instantly discounted..

So, if I understand you correctly, anything linked to US politics is invalid by default? Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the author did have a political goal in mind and that this assumption is made based on the nature (political) of the topic. The author explains that he used the statistics already previously reported but presented the stats in a different way.

Wouldn't that mean that the original reports would also be invalid due to the nature of the topic?

Sorry but I can't agree with your line of reasoning. If one side of the spectrum says it's black while the other side is saying it's white, then it's very likely to be some shade of grey. In a case like this, neither side can be 100% right.



Originally posted by LEBillfish: The real point here however is "Why would you even want to discuss this".....

Well, it's an interesting topic and besides that, it's very grey rather than a black and white issue as some would want to believe.


Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Americas views we all know are changing or the East would still be far behind technology wise and not rapidly catching up.

Do you want to reconsider this statement?


Originally posted by LEBillfish:
More products are bought from Eastern manufacturers then U.S. based here, and clearly relations and aspects in all ways are changing already...........

You'll find the same situation in most western nations.


Originally posted by LEBillfish:
.....Yet your reason eludes me. If you're looking to be pardoned for some past transgression know you already have by all here.....So this issue I suspect only lies within self..

Poor assumption. What would I need to be pardoned for?


Originally posted by LEBillfish: Yet, no amount of justification ever makes a wrong right....Just don't do it again all I can suggest...

I find it rather funny when people can talk about what goes on inside China when they don't live here and have probably never even been here. In every country, no matter where you are, the nations' medias paint the pictures for you.

The author reported that the numbers he was using were those previously reported by others. Maybe they originated from the opposite end of the political spectrum and I'm willing to entertain that assumption based on what you have written. He's also pointed out that those gross numbers, relative to China, are somewhat misleading since they don't mention that the largest percentage of pirated products in China actually represent Chinese products.

A good example would be DVD stores here. There are many and you can find them on almost every street. Typically, a mid sized store will have about 1,000 selections. I can estimate this because my collection is about the same size. But, about 75% of the stock is Chinese produced material.

But the western movie industry uses the 100% stat to justify price increases.

The point of this thread was nothing political. I think I made that quite clear in the first post. The purpose of this thread is to share information and views on a global issue. As I said, this is not exclusive to America and the report makes that clear.

BTW, just something I think you might find interesting, real western products sell for much higher in China than what they would in the west. You could argue that it's do to import and shipping costs and it may be partially right, but it doesn't make sense in the long run.

By putting your products on the shelf at a much higher than normal price, you'd only be inspiring pirating. That's not to say that that is what's happening. I'm just saying, it's a very bad business decision. Every city I've been in has high end western brand stores, such as Burberry, CK, and the likes and the prices are much higher than outside of China.

The whole issue creates more questions than answers, if you chose to look.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
11-10-2007, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Someone in China wants actions in China diluted by the huge population, but the largest part
of the population have little or nothing to do with the piracy do they? Except to support
it in the market and how many have more than TV or stereo? How many not even that?

It's worse than damn lies, it's statistics!

Yes, stats can be a real pain in the arsch. That's what this whole discussion is about. You should look at the stats, rather than just a few replies, before you post.

Fritz

Huxley_S
11-10-2007, 03:15 PM
What annoys me a great deal is when these powerful lobbying groups come up with statements like "Piracy is costing the movie/music/software industry x billion dollars a year."

It's a pure lie.

The idea that if a pirated copy of a movie, game or album was not available then everyone would buy a full-priced retail copy instead is absolute nonsense.

In Mexico a full priced CD costs three times the average daily wage. The choice for the vast majority of the world's population is to live without access to music and movies or to buy pirate copies. That's a fact.

No one can argue that artists and software companies don't deserve to make money from their craft, but personally I think that anyone with over a million quid in the bank is excessively wealthy. I think Robbie Williams can afford for some kid in Guatemala to download his latest album on P2P rather than spend his food money on it.

LEXX_Luthor
11-10-2007, 05:43 PM
Pirsch, here's an early link to the late stages of the StarForce Piracy saga...

~> http://www.theinquirer.net/en/inquirer/news/2006/03/16/...ys-sorry-to-stardock (http://www.theinquirer.net/en/inquirer/news/2006/03/16/starforce-says-sorry-to-stardock)

Starforce says sorry to Stardock
Helps hunt down the pirates

By Nick Farrell: Thursday, 16 March 2006, 1:50 PM

MAKERS of DRM software Starforce have said sorry to Stardock for publishing a link to a pirated version of its Galactic Civilizations II software.

Stardock has made a name for itself by releasing Galactic Civilisations II with no copy protection or DRM.

Starforce placed a link to a pirated copy of on its website and said that it cannot be good for sales to have Stardock's software so easily available.On a Stardock forum, a spokesman said that he had since received an email from Starforce saying it was sorry.

The outfit has taken down the link from its website and given the company the opportunity to request the various meta-torrent sites to remove links to illegal torrents. The company sent a few emails off to the meta-sites who promptly took the references to the P2P sites down.

"One might make the argument that a simple polite email to a meta-torrent search site is as effective as copy protection," the spokesman said.

The spokesman said that he didn't want people to think that the Stardock was on some anti-copy protection crusade. It just didn't think CD copy protection was a good way to increase sales. <span class="ev_code_red">ยต</span>

TSmoke
11-10-2007, 08:40 PM
WOW there are some people with wayyyyyyy to much free time on their hands worried about this.
Sounds like free enterprise to me, kind of what the whole north american way of life was founded on and continues thrive on.

Simplistic view maybe but it is the heart of the matter.

EiZ0N
11-10-2007, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
(c'monnnnnnn..."Based on population purchases per capita"....Gimme a break, that's like saying there is less crime in the US compared to Antarctica based on population levels and incidents)

Per capita is the only reasonable way to look at figures like this.

If 1 billion people live in a country, and 10 million of those pirate a DVD, and in another country there are 100 million people of which 1 million pirate a DVD, it doesn't mean piracy is worse in the first country. They are both the same - 1% of the population priates the DVD.

Your Antarctica example makes no sense, care to elaborate on it?

This reminds me of a time when one group of people were claiming that the people of the United States were the most generous in the world, based on the statistic that the US gave the largest amount of aid for the '04 Tsunami. However, per capita the aid was actually less than many much poorer countries, meaning the people of the poorer countries were giving away more of their own money to the Tsunami victims, than the US, on average. This is just an example BTW, I'm not making a point for or against, my point is that this group of people were using this statistic incorrectly.

It's a similar, and IMO incorrect, viewpoint to what I think the OP is pointing out. But I don't know the statistics on piracy in China so I can't be certain either way.

Loco-S
11-10-2007, 09:48 PM
I dont condone piracy, but in simple terms: would you pay 400 bucks for a copy of your favorite game?...600 bucks?...1000 bucks?...lets examine this, some countries have a way lower salary base than the US, say Peru...the average salary is 100 bucks a month, the game has to be imported, they add "luxury tax", and the game that you can buy in walmart for 20 bucks, costs down there 65 to 80 bucks or more ( if you can find it BTW)..make your numbers, you go to your local "software street" and you can buy a pirated version for 3 bucks...thats why there is piracy overseas, on the other hand, piracy in the US has no excuses, unless you see the stupidity of the RIAA that targets and punish their customers for their own (the RIAA)lack of vision. thats a knee jerk reaction that is hurting them way more than if they planted a self installing file that attaches itself into 'streams" to prevent the files on P2P to be copied to disks.

people basically can not afford to buy "brand" stuff, thats why they go and buy pirated everything, you want windows? they have it, you want applications? they have it, you want anything?..office?, adobe?, photoshop?, you name it...they have it right there, and they burn the disk for you in minutes.

Korolov1986
11-10-2007, 09:57 PM
Innocent question:

If the cost of computing software is so far out of reach for people with incredibly low salaries, then how could they afford to buy and maintain a computer in the first place?

Loco-S
11-10-2007, 10:11 PM
just for kicks, an imported computer there costs about 2000 to 3000 bucks ( the ones you buy at wally martinez for 400 bucks), people down there are still using pentium 1 and 2...the people who have modern machines are either Upper class ( rich families) or they buy on installments ( 2 to 3 years payments, like buying a car) or stolen goods, ( cheap by any means)


I had my first computer in 1991, a 286 (6 mhz) with 640 kb memory and a whooping 10 mb hard drive, two color screen, then in 1995 I bought a 386 (33 mhz)for 600 bucks ( second hand-from a cousin) and I sold the 286 for 900 bucks, (a rich guy in college got it to write his stuff)
people down there have computers, and its a merry go round of technology that you would laugh at it , but it works .

Korolov1986
11-10-2007, 10:14 PM
I have to admit, if I were living in such conditions, buying a PC and playing a PC game would not be foremost on my "to get" list.

Loco-S
11-10-2007, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by Korolov1986:
I have to admit, if I were living in such conditions, buying a PC and playing a PC game would not be foremost on my "to get" list.

you have to admit, people have a thirst for information...I used to work in a little town 200 miles south of Lima in Peru, we had Internet and we used it ( 1994), made all the difference in the world to get contacts, buy stuff, get clients, and make money......if you ride the wave of technology you will have the tools to make a benefit.

Korolov1986
11-10-2007, 10:24 PM
The problem is, how is a PC game going to satisfy your thirst for knowledge? Getting the 'net is one thing, but entertainment is something completely different.

How does the need to be entertained - or the 'need' to acquire knowledge - even compare to the very real need of food in one's stomach?

Taylortony
11-10-2007, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by Dagnabit:
But I DO have a bone to pick with the Chinese. Back in the 50s I came up with an invention that they reverse engineered and stole from me....Did youn ever see the bamboo back scratchers with with the fancy massage device on the end, with a little hand shaped scratcher on the other end? Yup!! That was me. I coulda been a millionaire.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif
Dag


So past tense......... get with the times man http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif modern interpretation is a fine thing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Gentlemen's Ballscratcher

http://images.play.com/covers/479011x.jpg

Great for those itchy moments that every guy experiences. Now you can scratch in sophistication without compromising your integrity as a gentleman. This high quality, silver coloured device comes in a lovely presentation box with the words 'For the busy male executive' on the outside and 'Gentlemen's Ballscratcher' inside the box.

http://www.play.com/Gadgets/Gadgets/4-/479011/-/Product...cher&searchsource=0# (http://www.play.com/Gadgets/Gadgets/4-/479011/-/Product.html?searchstring=ball+scratcher&searchsource=0#)

They really are good quality, I bought one for someone that helps me out on odd days at work as an 18th Birthday Joke http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif His Mum was not amused http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Pirschjaeger
11-10-2007, 11:02 PM
The question, regarding why people living in poverty would buy a computer, is a good one. But first we have to think of the reality. Not all in China are living in poverty.

If someone said, and I'm just making an example, that 14,000,000 pc's were sold in China alone last year, that sounds amazing. This would mean a pc for every 1 in 10 people. Not so amazing anymore. Per capita is very important when looking at issues relative to nations, especially when comparing nations.

Now, China repotrs it has 10's of 1,000's of internet cafes. Of course, they are only reporting the legitimate establishments. The number of unregistered net cafe's is much higher. Net cafes, legal or illegal, purchase a large chunk of the annual sales in computers.

Then there's the foreign companies. German companies alone have about 15,000 representative offices through out China. Now, imagine how many other representative offices from other countries are here.

Then there are the Chinese companies themselves, not to mention the governmental offices and departments, or even the military. Also, the schools should be mentioned.

What do you think happens to the 1 in 10 ratio? After a little thought, 1 in 50 sounds more likely. Once again, I have no idea what the annual pc sales in China are, but my point is how the stats should be taken into consideration. There are many variables.

Next, the living environment, pollution aside. Chinese's society is extremely stress due to many aspects. One of the worst comes from the one child policy. This makes one person responsible for 4 grandparents and 2 parents before marriage. The pressure put on the individual Chinese to be the best or earn more than others is incredible. Cheap video games are an escape. Just two months ago, there was a report of a young man dying in a net cafe. He had been playing for 3 days straight without a break. He collapsed and the paramedics were unable to revive him.

I have to stop here because I have an appointment. Things are not as black and white as they may seem.

Fritz

M_Gunz
11-10-2007, 11:09 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
If someone said, and I'm just making an example, that 14,000,000 pc's were sold in China alone last year, that sounds amazing. This would mean a pc for every 1 in 10 people. Not so amazing anymore. Per capita is very important when looking at issues relative to nations, especially when comparing nations.

You want me to believe that China population is only 140 million?

Some people have this idea that China as 1.3 BILLION which is new PC per 100.
So some villages have new one and in the cities it is many more per face.

What is it you teach?

Pirschjaeger
11-11-2007, 12:05 AM
Ja, ja,

Some of us have to type in a hurry so mistakes are bound to happen. 1.4 b

Add a zero and you'll be ok,

and thanks for contributing your insight. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

zardozid
11-11-2007, 01:00 AM
IMO the author of the paper is playing the very same "race card" he claims to be apposed to...and he is not as unbiased as he would like you to believe he is.

Insuber
11-11-2007, 03:28 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
So, LeBillfish, after reading the report, are you saying it is wrong?

If so, based on what? Details please.

Fritz


Pirschjaeger,

"When figures are adjusted for population" isn't very fair for a 1.3 billion people country, and most of them living on a very low income ... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

BTW, I have a little personal anecdote: I worked in China 10 years ago, and in the silk market in Beijing I used to see any kind of pirated items. I was even invited in the apartment of one of the fake CD sellers, where his wife and child lived in poor conditions. He told me that the police once arrested him and broke his arm, and he finally served 2 years of prison ... hard life in China at that time. I don't know now.

Regards,
Insuber

M_Gunz
11-11-2007, 04:57 AM
I just think it's poor form to balance out the actions of the rich Chinese with the numbers
of the poor as an excuse for a very busy pirate market.

DuxCorvan
11-11-2007, 05:24 AM
The only thing which compels me towards 'auto-piracy' (this is, backup copies of my legal items without some bothersome 'features') is precisely that: in order to avoid piracy, they go and punish... the legal buyer. Limited backup ability, troublesome anti-piracy systems -including CD waste, and incompatibility issues...

It's like those annoying anti-piracy adverts that are on the beginning of every legal DVD movie and that you can't skip, wasting up until ten minutes of the time of the only ones who relly paid for it and needed no advice or threat. You know, pirate copies have no the silly adverts and it's only the legal owner who has to suffer through them...

For example, the new 'Battlestar Galactica' series had its first season DVDs released by Universal in Spain in just 4:3 pan-scan format and 2.0 stereo instead of the 16:9 panoramic and 5.1 sound formats of the US originals... why? Meanwhile, the pirated versions circulating here and there were... better quality than the retail ones! That, guys, is promoting piracy by the company itself.

If they really want to fight piracy in rich countries -the reasons for piracy in the poor ones were well explained by Loco-S- they should reward the legal buyers, or, at least, not punish them. Because of companies ill politics in piracy protection, there are now reasons to have pirated things other than cost.

Sorry, but I hate being a scapegoat for the sins of others.

ochi
11-11-2007, 07:05 AM
China?...hmmm...Anybody wanna buy some toys?...cheap!

Pirschjaeger
11-11-2007, 10:55 AM
Mort, no one here is promoting or encouraging. Besides that, further reading of the rules will make clear the rights the mods have to lock or ban as they see fit.

If they went strictly by the code, most threads here would be locked and this community would be rather small, not to mention painfully boring.

IIRC, your thread wasn't locked due to the topic or even your post, but more in relation to other posts.

You know the mods do not lock threads such as, yours and mine, that stay civilized. However, I am sure the mods are paying close attention to this thread and if they see fit to lock it, I support their decision. And if it does start going south, then I'll be one of the first to jump on the alert button.

Also, keep in mind that it is the weekend. The mods do have lives and I can prove it if I have to. Be sure. I highly doubt the mods contact each other on Friday afternoon to synchronize their family planning, just for us.

Once again, no one is promoting anything here besides truth and education. Piracy is a big problem for everyone here, including you and I, but the reason so little gets done about it is because of the lack of understanding. We can all learn something here.

The first step to solving any problem is to clearly identify it. Since there seems to be two extremes, the answer must lie somewhere in the middle.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
11-11-2007, 11:25 AM
Just a thought: Statistics are like stem cells and can be made into anything you want, depending where and how you send them.

That's the point of this thread.

Thank you and goodnight. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif
Fritz

mortoma
11-11-2007, 04:34 PM
Pirschjaeger, I did not mean to imply that this thread had promoted or encouraged hacks or mods, you misunderstood. Actually it does so no more than the thread I was talking about in the post I made, which I have now deleted. That's the point, this thread does not promote it, nor did mine. Hence, proving the inconsistencies in moderation of the forum I was implying.

Also, the thread they locked on me was not "going south" or otherwise out of hand in any way. That's the point, this thread is no better or worse than mine was. But mine was locked and yours has not been, despite both maintaining equal civility. This is both inconsistent and illogical.

Loco-S
11-11-2007, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by Korolov1986:
The problem is, how is a PC game going to satisfy your thirst for knowledge? Getting the 'net is one thing, but entertainment is something completely different.

How does the need to be entertained - or the 'need' to acquire knowledge - even compare to the very real need of food in one's stomach?

Bread and circus, nothing has changed since the Roman times, food is cheap in other countries, and you will be surprised to see how many people play Video games in the third world, I remember a program I used to create a "swap partition" of a whooping 6 mb, to play TFX on a 386 with windows 3.1, 72 mb HD, 4 mb ram, was sold by the pirate guys down in Peru, and I believe it was a partition hack with a random memory access for games, quite clever stuff back then....there are lots of stuff like that to optimize and often outperform OS limitations due to hardware.

EiZ0N
11-13-2007, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
I just think it's poor form to balance out the actions of the rich Chinese with the numbers
of the poor as an excuse for a very busy pirate market.
It's only the per capita statistics that matter.

It's irrelevant if there are 10x more pirated games in china than in the US, if there are 10x more citizens. Why? Because it's affecting the developers no more than it would in the states - they still lose the same proportion of income. And yes, they also still make the same proportion of income, so it's not like china is some black hole sucking money away from people. That's probably not true at all.

You can't condemn China, if the US has as bad a record, yet happens to have fewer people.

BSS_Sniper
11-13-2007, 11:22 AM
The best part of this thread is that China is going to be the numba one world leader in 20 years! Hilarious! lol

M_Gunz
11-13-2007, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Just a thought: Statistics are like stem cells and can be made into anything you want, depending where and how you send them.

Yeah right. So are words but when you form lies with them the result is still bad.
Using statistics to hide or cover truths is a form of lying.

M_Gunz
11-13-2007, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by BSS_Sniper:
The best part of this thread is that China is going to be the numba one world leader in 20 years! Hilarious! lol

At the rate we use oil and the current inflation made worse by government borrowing?
20 years is a long time at the rate of change we are going through, all it takes for a fall
is the complacency in the face of needed changes we've demonstrated since the 60's.

Has China really begun to tap their own energy resources? I doubt it.

Carella_768
11-13-2007, 06:57 PM
This week, The economist ( a pretty serious journal not incline to play with stats)has published a nice article about counterfeit goods in China.
you can find it here:http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10111006

In the same issue there is a report for technology in India and China worth reading.
You can also browse on the website for old articles about China's future growth

Freelancer-1
11-13-2007, 09:22 PM
I didn't read much past the first page.

Based on experience, any thing said after that is a waste of time.

But here's a practical test for you.

D/L Utorrent (because it'll show what country the peers are in).

Now rip something...

Anything...

Look at the countries who's little flags are showing up the most. Then come back and tell us how China is the worst http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Pirschjaeger
11-13-2007, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Just a thought: Statistics are like stem cells and can be made into anything you want, depending where and how you send them.

Yeah right. So are words but when you form lies with them the result is still bad.
Using statistics to hide or cover truths is a form of lying. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That IS the point of this thread. But your post is rather vague and if you are accusing me of lying, then I hope you will support your accusations.

If not, then your post holds no validity.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
11-13-2007, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by Freelancer-1:
Look at the countries who's little flags are showing up the most. Then come back and tell us how China is the worst http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

That could make a good argument but we should consider one possible variable; language.

Could language play a part in this or does it matter? I don't use torrent so I'm not sure how it all works.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
11-13-2007, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_Sniper:
The best part of this thread is that China is going to be the numba one world leader in 20 years! Hilarious! lol

At the rate we use oil and the current inflation made worse by government borrowing?
20 years is a long time at the rate of change we are going through, all it takes for a fall
is the complacency in the face of needed changes we've demonstrated since the 60's.

Has China really begun to tap their own energy resources? I doubt it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

China has three existing pipelines running from Xin Zhang to ShangHai. They have the worlds largest dam, not to mention others. They've been digging deeply into their coal reserves for quite some time now and have set world records in the coal industry.

They have not only tapped into their own resourses but through mismanagement and misuse, exhausted many.

Would you like to see a photo of their results of their resources? The visibility, do to pollution, is often down to a few meters where I live. In fact, it was reported that China produced 58% of the worlds carbon dioxide last year.

Unless things change, we will see wars fought over the environment, in our lifetime.

Fritz

Waldo.Pepper
11-13-2007, 11:12 PM
Surprisingly ON topic.

http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/187

Pirschjaeger
11-13-2007, 11:48 PM
Thanks for sharing that Waldo. This guy spells it out quite clearly and even adds some new angles on the problem.

But I have to admit, tears were streaming while those video samples were playing. I haven't laughed so hard in a long time. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Fritz