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View Full Version : Dogfighting in BF110: tips?



Bronzefist
05-24-2005, 01:21 PM
Yes, yes I know the history of the plane and how it got chewed up by smaller, more agile fighters but I'm still looking for some general tips to become decent with this thing. The armament is very good and it seems like it can take a fair beating before going down.

I typically play it on dogfight servers and my opponents are Spitfires 80% of the time. I know the BF110's shortcomings but I wonder if there are some plane-specific tactics I can use to stay alive a little longer. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

On servers that allow vulching (using bombs or rockets) I usually bring a pair of SD500s along with me for the ride. Figure I'll get SOME kind of kill instead of getting pwned in the dogfight. :P

I usually swap the normal 20mm cannons for the two mk108s. The BF110 seems to have ammo for days anyway.

Any general tips to help me stay alive longer and dogfight better? What advantages (if any) does it hold over fighters of the same time period? I know this can be an uphill battle but its a plane I enjoy flying.

Thanks!

Tooz_69GIAP
05-24-2005, 01:43 PM
don't http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Tooz_69GIAP
05-24-2005, 01:46 PM
kidding, it is a very good interceptor against ground assault aircraft, but you must keep your speed high, and dont camp long enough to get an engine damaged. If ye do, you'd better run.

As for dogfighting, doesn't do well against single engine jobs, but the twins make good match ups. Again speed is the key.

AerialTarget
05-24-2005, 01:56 PM
Don't bring the big guns.

Waldo.Pepper
05-24-2005, 01:58 PM
Wait for 4.0 before you commit to any long term project of education on any single plane. 4.0 may change everything.

Atomic_Marten
05-24-2005, 02:49 PM
IMO it is outstanding interceptor (for bombers of course), and assault aircraft. Using it in fighter role is wrong. The plane does not have required agility for that.

But if you want to use it in pure fighter role, make sure that your gunner skills are awesome.

Doug_Thompson
05-24-2005, 03:32 PM
IMO it is outstanding interceptor (for bombers of course), and assault aircraft. Using it in fighter role is wrong. The plane does not have required agility for that.

But if you want to use it in pure fighter role, make sure that your gunner skills are awesome.

Unfortunately, the AI doesn't seem to fly this plane as if it has a gunner. I've had perfect shots into the enemy's belly from below, but as soon as I switch to gunner the pilot starts circling around for another pass, ruining a simple shot.


I once used a Bf 110 with gun pods against the nortoriously vulnerable Betty, just because I felt like watching an explosion that day.

I made a brief nose to nose pass. The Bf 110 blew off the Betty's port engine and tore so many large holes in the wing that I got the best look I've ever had at the interior structure of a Japanese aircraft. I'm amazed the wing still held. A few stray shots blew daylight through the fuselage, too. Couldn't circle around fast enough to get another shot in before the bomber had fallen too far.

JunkoIfurita
05-24-2005, 04:19 PM
@Doug Thompson,

If you leave autopilot automation set to off, you can switch to your gunner (and deactivate its autopilot) without activating the autopilot on your pilot.

This way you're still controlling the aircraft with the stick (you can hold it on course for a gunner shot), while controlling the gunner with the mouse.

So it's:
'c' to switch to gunner
'a' to turn the gunners autopilot off.
bang bang bang bang aahhh it hurts why me why me?
'a' to reactivate the gunners autopilot
'c' to switch back to pilot's position.

It's not perfect but it solves the AI autopilot tomfoolery problem.


@Bronzefist: What's already been said pretty much sums it up - so I'd add that if you really MUST get into trouble in a 110 with a gaggle of single engine gnats, make sure you're starting with a significant height advantage. Then ONLY boom&zoom/energy fight. Don't ever EVER turn with them.

If you're low against a bunch of single engine fighters, all you can really do is push the nose down (the 110 will outrun most fighters of equivalent age in a shallow dive) and run for friendlies. When they get engaged by your mates, climb circle for height, and look for some choice boom n zoom targets.

----

Oilburner_TAW
05-24-2005, 04:22 PM
There's a guy on GG who is awesome in this plane...aztek eagle i think. Maybe he will post

Atomic_Marten
05-24-2005, 05:17 PM
@Doug_Thompson If you play online DM for sure you can not engage autopilot. *But* you can trim the plane to fly straight (-you will be sitting duck then, all right-) and then you can make some good shots from rear position at your target (Bf110s rear machine gun has high ROF and is powerful enough to cripple any fighter).

That is why I said "you better be good with shooting"http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v442/Atomic_Marten/Smileys/Boom.gif

@Bronzefist wait for the G4M, it should be in the next patch you will have 20mm in the rear. I really doubt than any sane enemy fighter (human ctrled) will approach from there. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

idonno
05-24-2005, 05:24 PM
High yo-yo's

Altitude is definitely your best friend. By that, I mean an altitude advantage. Get above them and STAY THERE! Dive in to attack and as soon as you see them break hard, go back up. If you attempt to "saddle up" you will blow you "E" advantage and you might as well bail right then and there.

Two things to be careful of; (1) if they're paying attention they may zoom up under you when you pull up (getting on a Spit's "six" can be like grabbing a rattle snake by the tail), and (2) don't take too long to make your next attack. You need to find the balance between being too aggressive and throwing away you energy, and not being aggressive enough which will allow them to keep their energy up and probably work their way up to your altitude. Don't expect every pass to be a kill, you'll have to wear them down, but don't take too long to kill them either, or you'll find your alt advantage has mysteriously disappeared.

Using high yo-yo's forces them to use up their energy in evasive turns, and enables you to keep your energy by trading speed for alt for speed for alt for speed for...

And one last thing, you'll probably get killed anyway. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The Spit has every advantage on the 110. You can build an advantage for yourself by coming to the fight with alt, but while you can't keep your alt indefinitely, it's quite easy for him to maintain his ability to stay out of your gun sight.

EmbarkChief
05-24-2005, 06:18 PM
Like the others have said, engage only with a huge E advantage. That said this may be one of the few planes that I enjoy head on attacks in. Cruise above the proverbial furball and pick your targets carefully, then turn them into a cloud of black smoke with the 108's. Once they get behind you, hit Ctrl-E.

Jumoschwanz
05-24-2005, 06:53 PM
Don't dogfight in it. Just make sure you do what you have to to get the bounce.

Once I caught a lone Il2 strafing ground targets. I had the mk108s and easily shot him down. An La5 spotted the commotion and headed for me, I headed away from him and when he got close I dropped my two sd500 bombs with 3 second delay and vaporized him. His buddy in a P-39 came after me next and I went head on to him and blew him apart with the mk108s. Three down, I went home and landed.

Another neat trick is to get someone to follow you into a cloud and let the AI rear gunner peck them to death. The AI can see them but they will not see you. Hee hee hee....

When the 110 first came out it was fun as it could fight as well as any plane in the sim just about, then next patch they porked it so it now flies like a Il2 and comes apart if you dive it around 650km/hr. Because of this speed limit you can't zoom and boom too well. the engines also go up like a torch with very few hits.
You just have to learn to put yourself in the right place at the right time and learn to not mind being shot down.
I have shot a lot of planes down with big and unlikely planes when the fighter foe does not expect you to put up a fight, especially with an engine burning.

If you like to fly it then just fly it and develop your own tactics and have fun. I would fly it more against bombers if it would go over 650km/hr. I will have to try diving it in the 4.0beta and see if they messed with anything. S!

Jumoschwanz

Aztek_Eagle
05-24-2005, 07:55 PM
I got over 103 kills on it before the stats got reseted again, wiht out addings the onces that i got under other nicks.... i guess around 300 kills i got on the bf110 on that lapse of time... and flew in total only around 80 planes for getting the 103 as aztek eagle... i am a simulator pilot who mostly flys ground atack... so i am used to heavy planes at low alt... my key to sucess has always been "to be very agresive" and fight on my own terrain, witch is anything under 100m(but this had cost me some dump deaths to)

it is hard to fly the bf110, especialy when u atrack bandits like parasites.... it is very deadly on nite missions....

i dont have any tecnique in special... i always tray to kill in first pass.... if i miss, i turn as hard as i can wiht my flaps, and power at 0... this will make u do a very sharp turn... u will lose all ur speed, and will make u more vulnerable if u miss the second pass.... when i spot some one ovobe me, and i know he saw me.. i fly straiht, looking at him as he dives towards my taill... i make a gentile dive to rise my speed at around 500, when they are at shooting range, i do a sharp turn to either side.... if they are planes like p51, p47... or others, they wont be able to keep up wiht u.... so they will over shoot you, and they normaly pull away... this is ur chance to blow them to pices, they lose sight of u as soon as they raise their noses, so as u make ur sharp turn, keep ur eyes on enemy, as soon he brakes, turn towards his path, so he flys over u, and gives u a perfect oportiunity for ur 2 30s to send the infidel to hell....

Sooner or later u will met one of those guys who are regardless of tailgunners, and they sit at ur tail blasting u to pieces... many change to tailgunner and fly level while shooting back... i dont like this... ur stall speed is lower that of many enemy fighters... i start to sig zag at low altitud and slow, i had seen many just drop one of their wings, and goes to the ground... many do overshoot u as they tray to zigzag wiht u... and u need to not be afriad of holding ur trigger down as they cross infront of u...... i prety much zig zag alot when some one is begine me, and i look at the enemy and tray to stay away of the way of his bullets... there is not much u can do versus a good pilot.... they know u are vulnerable slow, low climbing.... but when u know, the enemy thinks u are already a goner, before he even shoots at u, he is more likely to do mistakes... and thats ur biggest allie, overtrusty red pilots in thier shiny planes are the best preys....as well as ground atack planes... i have brought down 4 A20 onces.... last time i saw a very neatly done 3 b25s formation, i came in, and blasted all of them in a single pass, as i came from their 4 oclock... i only got 1 of them as my buddys showed up and killed the other 2.... but u have a very good forward view, and easy to aim........

well.... thats what i mostly do when i fly a bf110.... now the enemy knows my secret..... if u spot something, turn imidietly towards him, as that may be the only chance for u to shoot back at him.... i fly low mostly, and i have always done this... when some one of the guys who fly always high joins me into a low alt dogfight where i know all the rules, i am pretty confident that i will prevail regardless of what i am flying, and whats the enemy flying.... last time i was joined by ajaxs... bf109k4, vs p47... i gave him my tail... he folowed me low.. i cut power and start to manuver... i made a left sharp turn, folled my a roll at almost stall speed. i got out of roll... pull my nose up and acelerated... i saw ajaxs flip on his back and make a crater on the ground as he trayed to keep on my six... jajajjaja

Aztek_Eagle
05-24-2005, 08:03 PM
all i wrote aplays for realictic online servers.... i have never been a very good fan of high altitud fighting,,, i was always afraid of high altitudes as a child and still today....

Psi9RQR
05-24-2005, 08:42 PM
Historically, the rear gunner was the only salvation for 110s in the Battle of Britain.

When engaged by British fighters, the 110s would form mutually-supporting circles and just fly round and round until the British fighters left or the 109s saved them. The idea was that no matter which direction the fighters attacked, they would get difficult deflection shots and several rear gunners firing at them.

I think a good rear gunner is the single most important thing for a 110 dogfight. The non-autopilot method works best. I use it all the time for the SBD.

On a related note, I only have PF - can someone tell me which game gives you the 110? In the FB list it says the 110s are non-flyable.

Thanks.

Doug_Thompson
05-24-2005, 08:53 PM
Atomic_Marten and JunkoIfurita:

Thanks for the lessons and sorry for my ignorance.

JunkoIfurita
05-24-2005, 08:58 PM
The funny thing is, that was a technique that British pilots (in the Mediterranean) made heavy use of against the 109s out there.

They'd get into a tight set of supporting circles, and the 109 couldn't follow for a deflection shot without ending with at least one RAF pilot on his tail.

The Luftwaffe Ace nicknamed 'Desert Fox' was known for his technique for succesfully breaking the furball. He'd fly in and take three or four kills, then be out again before anyone could touch him.

Problem was, no-one else could duplicate it.

Desert fox was a weird one - he only ever turn-fought, even though his 109 was better for energy fighting in that theatre, didn't use any of the well-worn techniques (Such as Hartmann's most sensible way of engaging) and still managed to take a phenomonal number of kills without dying himself.

He was a loner - when assigned a wingman his only order was for them 'to hang well back and stay out of my way'. He spent all time flying about and 'training' when off missions, and was extremely concerned with keeping his body in top physical conditon.

And yet, on some days he'd just refuse to fly. Not related to weather - he just wouldn't do it. As he was so good, he could get away with such behaviour in the teamwork-and-discipline oriented Luftwaffe.

He didn't survive the war, either. Was shot down and killed, I believe, while riding as a passenger of a Ju-52 on a transport flight.

This is all I've put together from a variety of reading sources http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

If anyone has a book I could find on Desert Fox, I'd be more than grateful as I don't know how accurate that information is thus far.

----

Doug_Thompson
05-24-2005, 09:03 PM
Hans Joachim Marseille (http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/marse/marse.htm)

Aztek_Eagle
05-24-2005, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by Psi9RQR:
Historically, the rear gunner was the only salvation for 110s in the Battle of Britain.

When engaged by British fighters, the 110s would form mutually-supporting circles and just fly round and round until the British fighters left or the 109s saved them. The idea was that no matter which direction the fighters attacked, they would get difficult deflection shots and several rear gunners firing at them.

I think a good rear gunner is the single most important thing for a 110 dogfight. The non-autopilot method works best. I use it all the time for the SBD.

On a related note, I only have PF - can someone tell me which game gives you the 110? In the FB list it says the 110s are non-flyable.

Thanks.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif good advice for fighting in a bf110.... ho wait.. u havent flown it yet... hahaha... u need Forgoten battles, and ace expansion pack

Aztek_Eagle
05-24-2005, 09:18 PM
the first reports of british fighter pilots on the bf110, was... that those planes were flown by very agresive confident pilots..... as bf110 were forced into defensive they lost confidence, and aswell the battle...

i have read some stuff about the bf110... belive me... flying level nicely for the enemy to come and have a perfect shoot was the worst thing to do..... in many cases pilot would ask his comarade to bail out of the plane as the tail gun was pretty much useless....

irR4tiOn4L
05-24-2005, 09:38 PM
all accurate untill how he died. I cant find the site i read this on, which is unfortunate as it was a very good site, but he died when one mission without any combat while returning to base his engine began billowing black smoke. His wingmates urged him to continue on to friendly territory, but soon he couldnt stand it and had to bail.

Unfortunately he was probably disoriented by the smoke, and instead of keeping the BF109 level inverted he entered a steep dive. Upon bailing he hit the rudder, either incapacitating or killing him instantly, did not open his parachute, and ignomiously fell to his death - to the great horror of his squad.

His death was a significant loss to the Luftwaffe, as their tactic was to let the aces at it while the novices flew support - the site claims that after his death the Luftwaffe was not the threat it used to be in North Africa.

mynameisroland
05-25-2005, 07:15 AM
Originally posted by JunkoIfurita:
The funny thing is, that was a technique that British pilots (in the Mediterranean) made heavy use of against the 109s out there.

They'd get into a tight set of supporting circles, and the 109 couldn't follow for a deflection shot without ending with at least one RAF pilot on his tail.

The Luftwaffe Ace nicknamed 'Desert Fox' was known for his technique for succesfully breaking the furball. He'd fly in and take three or four kills, then be out again before anyone could touch him.

Problem was, no-one else could duplicate it.

Desert fox was a weird one - he only ever turn-fought, even though his 109 was better for energy fighting in that theatre, didn't use any of the well-worn techniques (Such as Hartmann's most sensible way of engaging) and still managed to take a phenomonal number of kills without dying himself.

He was a loner - when assigned a wingman his only order was for them 'to hang well back and stay out of my way'. He spent all time flying about and 'training' when off missions, and was extremely concerned with keeping his body in top physical conditon.

And yet, on some days he'd just refuse to fly. Not related to weather - he just wouldn't do it. As he was so good, he could get away with such behaviour in the teamwork-and-discipline oriented Luftwaffe.

He didn't survive the war, either. Was shot down and killed, I believe, while riding as a passenger of a Ju-52 on a transport flight.

This is all I've put together from a variety of reading sources http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

If anyone has a book I could find on Desert Fox, I'd be more than grateful as I don't know how accurate that information is thus far.

----

Check Doug's link

Marseille was called the Derest Eagle, Turnfought and Boom and Zoomed he attacked defensive circles in a high yo yo , then a diving pass then a climb back up through the circle. killing maybe 2/3 bandits in the manuover.

He died when his brand new Bf 109 G2's DB engine started leaking fumes in to his cockpit and he flew on to friendly lines before bailing but he struck the tail plane and was knocked unconcious and didnt get to open parachute.

Marseille was the best Luft Ace vs the RAF all of his 158 kills coming against the RAF. HE was respected by both sides and was a bohemian, not an ardent Nazi he was just like a 20 something College kid nowadays, he liked to socialise and to pull women http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The guy your thinking about was Molders he died in a He111 on a transit flight he was the 1st pilot to achieve 100 kills.

Bronzefist
05-25-2005, 12:37 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Thanks for the help gentlemen. I see alot of suggestions that I'll try to put to good use. Up until this point I BnZed as much as possible until the guy got on my six. Whenever that happens I typically drop altitude immediately and try to fly as low as possible so I can give my rear gunner a good field of vision. I thought it was especially important because at altitude and pilot can easily come from below and shoot the belly of the plane without fear from the gunner.

Jumoschwanz, lol I'm seriously gonna try the tactic you mentioned (dropping bombs with 3/second delay at low altitude). Consider it STOLED immediately. That'll teach them to fly slow behind me haha.

Aztek thanks for all the suggestions as well. I have a question though--wouldnt dropping your power to 0 and engaging flaps cause you to stall quickly in a tight turn? Also when you zigzag do you just use the rudders or use the airelons (sp?) to rotate as well?

Thanks again all.

Aztek_Eagle
05-25-2005, 05:32 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bronzefist:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Thanks for the help gentlemen. I see alot of suggestions that I'll try to put to good use. Up until this point I BnZed as much as possible until the guy got on my six. Whenever that happens I typically drop altitude immediately and try to fly as low as possible so I can give my rear gunner a good field of vision. I thought it was especially important because at altitude and pilot can easily come from below and shoot the belly of the plane without fear from the gunner.

Jumoschwanz, lol I'm seriously gonna try the tactic you mentioned (dropping bombs with 3/second delay at low altitude). Consider it STOLED immediately. That'll teach them to fly slow behind me haha.

Aztek thanks for all the suggestions as well. I have a question though--wouldnt dropping your power to 0 and engaging flaps cause you to stall quickly in a tight turn? Also when you zigzag do you just use the rudders or use the airelons (sp?) to rotate as well?

yes, u loose all ur speed in a zero power flap turn, it is fast turn but u lose ur speed... so u need to be careful.. u dont realy need to cut ur power to 0, it is just as siutuation comes.... and u better not miss on this pass, because u will be very vulnerable as ur speed will be low...

when zig zaging i use violenty the rudder, i roll aswell.... not a full roll as it can cost u ur life at low alt.... and aswell i change my climbing, and sink rate constantly, it just make it hard for them to give u a solid burst into ur plane... there is not much u can do to not get hit by them... just to stay alive... i have been my self in a situation where i have lost an egine totaly, and i have manage to come on top of the enemy at the end..

wiht the bf110 you got very good forward view, and a good gunsight.... u must take advantage of this as much as u can, and dont miss the shoots that u have the oportiunity to send to the enemy, as they are mostly the only time u will be able to bring ur forward guns to shoot