PDA

View Full Version : Joystick settings - limiting stalls



sdcruz
10-04-2007, 05:30 AM
Hi

I guess its possible to configure your joystick by using the ingame feature to decrease the chances of incurring a stall. What are the ramifications of this? - no doubt one has an easier plane to fly, but does this affect anything else, e.g in a dogfight ?

Cheers
Shelton.

WOLFMondo
10-04-2007, 06:39 AM
Reducing the deflection at the end of the stick throw helps allot with reducing stalls (P51 elevator for instance). The down side is you miss out on maximum deflection on that axis sometimes meaning less maneuverability on that axis.

Its a double edge sword as it aids in maintaining speed and lessening stalls but in a tight corner where you might need every advantage your limiting yourself artificially. You might have to rely on trim to pull out of dives on planes that suffer badly from compressibility. This can be bad too as the Tempest for instance rips its own wings off using trim to get out of dives.

SlickStick
10-04-2007, 10:40 AM
The main thing I've seen about stick settings that induces stalls during hard turning is an over-sensitive rudder (YAW) axis.

Try reducing the curve of the YAW sliders in the INPUT section off of the main menu. Make them start low and gradually curve up to 100. That 10, 20, 30...etc default setting is too sensitive in my opinion. I like less movement near the bottom and only full rudder, when I want full rudder.

This will also help your gunnery, as it will give you more precise aiming, using smaller increments of rudder near the zero point of the YAW axis.

Lurch1962
10-04-2007, 05:52 PM
I'd strongly advise against limiting the output deflection value at the end of the stick's travel (most importantly the elevator). For example, the last value should be "100", and nothing less. Lessening this will reduce the all-important maneuvering ability at slower speeds, where full elevator deflection won't necessarily induce a stall.

Set aside an evening for testing, and fiddle around with the slope of the elevator "curve". A slope that's closer to straight-lined is generally better than one which is noticeably curved. Unless, of course, your particular stick's response warrants this. IIRC, my values start at "4" and ramp up pretty linearly to "100" (I use a CH Fighterstick.) Until I did this, my formerly more sensitive profile (starting at about "20") always resulted in overcompensated pitch movement, porpoising up 'n down while trying to hold a tracking shot.

BTW, I've left my rudder profile at "100" across the board. But then, my home-made, wide-stance, geared-down pedals allow for a more "twitchy" sensitivity setting.

--Lurch--

msalama
10-05-2007, 12:06 AM
Lately I've flown w/ all axii set as follows:

1 12 23 34 45 56 67 78 89 100

I do stall out occasionally if I get ham-handed, but I also get a full deflection whenever I need it - plus the first values, mild as they are, give me some precision too when lining up a shot...

LEBillfish
10-05-2007, 12:53 AM
Now I may have this wrong yet believe I do not.....

Yet the numbers represent the "percentage" of travel of that "percentage" of area....So, at 100 across the board, you're actually seeing how the stick works on it's own.

Ok, that said, if you reduce the first stick input to 10, the second to 20....In reality you're getting 1% movement (1/10th of 10%), in the second getting with 100 20% movement, yet with 20 you're getting 4% movement.

So a stick set up at 10,20,30,40....100 really gets you: 1%, 4%, 9%, 16%, 25%, 36%.....100% of actual movement.

So it ends up being a very nasty curve that though you want sensitivity at the bottom end, you want a bit of buffer at the top....Yet in reality you're getting this at the top...64%, 81%, 100%......That's a rather sharp increase right when you're riding the planes edge of stall...So it suddenly ramps up when you least want it to....Hence causing you to stall.

My advice would be, work backwards....last number 100, then perhaps -3, -4, -5, -6....So going backwards works out to 100, 97, 93, 88, 82, etc....

What happens then is, when you're least worried about stalling you have response vs. safety...When most concerned with stalling you have a gentle control. SO just tossing out those numbers it looks like this...Though you need to try and suit it to you:

35,46,56,67,75,82,88,93,97,100

SO the incrament gets gentler when things start to get touchy.....That way you don't get a sudden lurch of movement as you panic and begin to yank back.

Want real life?.......Real life says the nembers should be the same straight across...All 100's, or all 30's hard to say, as your joystick does not have the mechanical feel of the real thing (feedback), and the flight models may very well exceed the planes actual ability (our 100% throw may well be 170% for all we know)........Lastly, you're working with a roughly 10" lever giving you perhaps a 20:1 ratio of movement based on the pivot point. A real fighter had perhaps a 24+" lever with perhaps a 6:1 ratio....What that means is, your stick should be more precise right?...Well perhaps, yet you don't have that back pressure, you also have no feel, yet most of all though we can move with a surgeons dexterity when we need, in a combat sim we're yanking like a lumberjack....More so, vs. say a 1'R. of travel, we're working with maybe 4"....So in the end, our sticks are much more sensitive as we can't control them as easily.

That is why I believe it was "Mr.Brown" found our settings so extreme...By the time he was done, the stick barely moved at at through full throw, as a gamers joystick is much more sensitive.

So what's the answer.....Well, set the joystick to Mr.Brown's settings and you'll never be able to compete online....Realistic perhaps, yet we need a compromise.

100% across the board is better then 10,20,30, etc....I flew for a while at max being instead of 100 like 89, and was a demon (thinking of trying it again)....However to start off, I suggest the above a gradual increase in the amount of drop WORKING BACKWARDS...Ailerons set moderately, elevator as well....Rudder you can set virtually all 100's, or very aggressive your last (first) 4 numbers maybe 70.

However, the low numbers at the bottom don't work unless you are having trouble lining up shots....hence less deflection per % of movement (lower numbers)...yet will be more sensitive with the wider gaps.

Lurch1962
10-05-2007, 01:43 AM
LEB,
Early on I too followed much the same reasoning regarding the "percentage of effect" when starting to adjust my sensitivities, which is why I'd initially started with more aggressive values.

In fact, the first time out of the gate after installing FB I had all 100's for all axes. But oh, man! Just completely uncontrollable in pitch, and roll was rather too brisk as well. Sticking to pitch here (the most important axis), I "toned down" to a starting value of 50. Still much to twitchy! Then 20... still porpoising.

It really took a near-zero starting value to finally be able to hold the pipper stably on target during any kind of maneuvering.

[And I never ever use a dead zone, nor do I employ filtering.]

Perhaps it's not a case of a value of 10 being 10% of 10% = 1% of effect. If it is, then the modeled stick deflection or control surface effectiveness would seem to be rather over-modeled. In support of this notion, the on-screen animated stick/yoke really deflects a LOT with only small input from my stick. BTW, I'm pretty certain that the animated motion is coupled to the player's physical joystick travel, and NOT the adjusted (read: reduced) sensitivity values. In other words, both a greatly ramped "curve" which I now use, or all 100's, would produce the very same animated deflection for a given deflection of my CH stick.

--Lurch--

WOLFMondo
10-05-2007, 02:31 AM
Originally posted by Lurch1962:
I'd strongly advise against limiting the output deflection value at the end of the stick's travel (most importantly the elevator). For example, the last value should be "100", and nothing less. Lessening this will reduce the all-important maneuvering ability at slower speeds, where full elevator deflection won't necessarily induce a stall.


Reducing the elevator in the P51 makes it a pleasant plane to fly. Its personal choice but unless you turn and burn and rely on turn and burning planes, full elevator deflection isn't needed as much as you'd think. The only time I've found it to be a problem is when a Corsair or BF109 gets one of its elevators shot off.

sdcruz
10-05-2007, 02:52 AM
thanks for all the replies - very informative, yes I also start at the lower end which for me starts at 10 then jumps to 66 for the second 10% - mind you im playing IL2 under Linux via WINE so cant really compare.

Cheers
Shelton.

leitmotiv
10-05-2007, 03:15 AM
Captain Brown's settings are marvelous. Take you out of the sandbox (online) and into the realm of simulation. Ever wonder why WWII pilots fought their sticks? You'll find out with his settings. Without his settings I can roll a Blenheim IV loaded with 1,000 pounds of bombs and a 40% fuel load in FSX. It is a load of fun but it ain't real. Actually, with CB settings, you can hardly move your stick, and to get an effect you must nearly break it.

LEBillfish
10-05-2007, 07:37 AM
Originally posted by Lurch1962:
.......In support of this notion, the on-screen animated stick/yoke really deflects a LOT with only small input from my stick. BTW, I'm pretty certain that the animated motion is coupled to the player's physical joystick travel, and NOT the adjusted (read: reduced) sensitivity values. In other words, both a greatly ramped "curve" which I now use, or all 100's, would produce the very same animated deflection for a given deflection of my CH stick.

--Lurch--

Actually no, you have two boxes, one green and one red that move about as you move the stick...You'll note one lags behind the other then suddenly catches up...The one lagging is YOUR settings, the one that seems to move at a 1:1 ratio is "stick deflection".

sdcruz
10-05-2007, 06:45 PM
where can i find Mr Browns Settings?

berg417448
10-05-2007, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by sdcruz:
where can i find Mr Browns Settings?

Capt Brown's

Pitch 0, 1, 3, 7, 9, 14, 18, 23, 27, 33

Roll 0, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 10, 12, 17

Yaw 0, 0, 1, 2, 5, 6, 8, 11, 14, 16

Lurch1962
10-09-2007, 09:47 PM
LEB,
I was talking about the animated stick in the cockpit, not the "X-Y" plot seen during sensitivity adjustment.

Cheers!

BadA1m
10-09-2007, 10:40 PM
Just my $.02. I use 75%-100% on elevator and rudder and 100% on ailerons with my x52. As for the settings, I believe they represent force more than linear deflection. Oleg once explained that the linear movement of your joystick is used to represent a given amount of force exerted on the stick. At low loadings this will come out to a fairly linear transfer of movement (I.E. you move the stick half way, you move the control surface half way) but as the load on the controls increase, you will find the deflection of the surface (or at least the effectiveness) lessen compared to the deflection of the stick as you run out of virtual strength to pull the stick. In the actual aircraft you would actually not be able to move the stick if the forces exceeded your strength, but in the sim these forces can only be modelled representatively, hence stick movement "represents" the amount of force your virtual pilot applies to the stick.

Lurch1962
10-10-2007, 05:45 PM
BadA1m,
That sure sounds like the best explanation to me, and it accords with observation. How better to model variations in stick forces?

This raises another possibility for a difficulty setting. Strength and stamina could be accounted for, with fatigue and injury imposing a limit on how much force the virtual pilot could exert, and hence limiting maneuverability.

M_Gunz
10-10-2007, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by sdcruz:
Hi

I guess its possible to configure your joystick by using the ingame feature to decrease the chances of incurring a stall. What are the ramifications of this? - no doubt one has an easier plane to fly, but does this affect anything else, e.g in a dogfight ?

Cheers
Shelton.

Isn't it easier to learn when you are approaching stall and back off on the stick pull?