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View Full Version : An AWESOME new feature for IL2/PF



Choctaw111
02-13-2005, 06:37 AM
I had tried to post this a couple days ago and no one had replied when I had mentioned 6 Degrees of Freedom. Maybe no one knows what that means. TrackIR has come up with a new technology that allows for your head movements to be tracked in 3D. This means that you can not only look left, right, up and down but also lean forward and back and left and right so you can quickly lean forward to look at something on the instrument panel or your gunsight. You can lean left and right to get a good view of a target that might be behind one of the pillars on your canopy or you can even stretch your neck higher to see over your engine cowling while you are taxiing down the runway. If you haven't seen the movie of this in action it is available on the TrackIR website. http://media.naturalpoint.com/video/6dof/vector-commercial-320x240-600kbitrate.wmv When you see this you will be able to truly appreciate what this can do for your situational awareness. For those of you that have a TrackIR try to remember what it was like before you had one and then you said to yourself "I don't know how I got along without one!" that is what you will say when you see how the 6DoF works. It is absolutely amazing!!!!! I do not know if Oleg will try to get this to work in IL2/PF but I'm sure we would all like to see it even if it is only an experiment. I am just a little upset that CFS3 has this feature and IL2 doesn't. I hate CFS3 and anything else Microsoft gets their hands in beacuse they always tend to mess things up. Anyway I know that Oleg has stated that there is a lot of word to be done on the cockpits and such but PLEASE let us have this. I do not think that we will mind if we see "empty" space when we are "exploring" the virtual cockpit. Let me know what you all think.

Choctaw111
02-13-2005, 06:37 AM
I had tried to post this a couple days ago and no one had replied when I had mentioned 6 Degrees of Freedom. Maybe no one knows what that means. TrackIR has come up with a new technology that allows for your head movements to be tracked in 3D. This means that you can not only look left, right, up and down but also lean forward and back and left and right so you can quickly lean forward to look at something on the instrument panel or your gunsight. You can lean left and right to get a good view of a target that might be behind one of the pillars on your canopy or you can even stretch your neck higher to see over your engine cowling while you are taxiing down the runway. If you haven't seen the movie of this in action it is available on the TrackIR website. http://media.naturalpoint.com/video/6dof/vector-commercial-320x240-600kbitrate.wmv When you see this you will be able to truly appreciate what this can do for your situational awareness. For those of you that have a TrackIR try to remember what it was like before you had one and then you said to yourself "I don't know how I got along without one!" that is what you will say when you see how the 6DoF works. It is absolutely amazing!!!!! I do not know if Oleg will try to get this to work in IL2/PF but I'm sure we would all like to see it even if it is only an experiment. I am just a little upset that CFS3 has this feature and IL2 doesn't. I hate CFS3 and anything else Microsoft gets their hands in beacuse they always tend to mess things up. Anyway I know that Oleg has stated that there is a lot of word to be done on the cockpits and such but PLEASE let us have this. I do not think that we will mind if we see "empty" space when we are "exploring" the virtual cockpit. Let me know what you all think.

Extreme_One
02-13-2005, 06:51 AM
Yeah - looks really cool.

Was posted all over these forums a month or so back.

Unfortunatley FB/PF can't utilise 6DOF but apparently BOB will.

BaldieJr
02-13-2005, 10:09 AM
Show Stopper.

Once you try it in FS2004, FB feels like a kiddie toy.

Choctaw111
02-13-2005, 10:14 AM
Why does Microsoft have a one up on this great new technology!? CFS3 is TERRIBLE but having the 6DoF almost makes it worth playing again just for the sheer enjoyment of having freedom in the cockpit. I am a little confused how Microsoft used this as soon as it came out. How did they do it so quickly? Why not FB/PF?

csThor
02-13-2005, 10:24 AM
It is a common thing with 3D objects to delete any non-visible surfaces. For FB/PF it means the cockpits are only complete from the programmed viewpoint(s) and moving that viewpoint would result in missing surfaces. That's a visual problem and - even if the largest 6DOF fanboys say they don't mind - would end in some kind of "money-cheat" - those who can/want to afford TIR3 can take a look around cockpit structures while those who cannot/don't see the need to buy TIR3 are left somewhat behind.

BaldieJr
02-13-2005, 10:34 AM
Thats crazy.

Who says oleg cant add key-strokes to allow 6DOF to everyone? Thats how it works in other sims.

Stop fighting progress, its only going to hurt 1C. To quantify that statement, take myself as an example: I fly FB once a week and FS2004 daily. Before 6DOF, I rarely flew FS2004.

Choctaw111
02-13-2005, 10:56 AM
Not everyone will have the same system or setup at home. To say that there is a "money cheat" is absurd! Sure not everyone has the money to buy a top of the line system but that does not mean that Oleg will only have features that are supported by minimum requirements machines! If there is a new technology out there that the the competitors(CFS3) support then we should have it also. Like I said before I have reinstalled CFS3 even though is is a horrible attempt at a combat flight simulator just for the feel of 6DoF. It is so much fun and the immersion factor is so much greater with this. I know that Oleg is aware of the immersion factor and I know that he wants to make his products as attractive as possible. If 6DoF makes CFS3 look attractive imaginge what it will do for FB/PF!!!!!

Extreme_One
02-13-2005, 11:00 AM
The cockpit models for FB/PF aren't compatible apparently. If it was implememted with the current cockpits they'd show missing surfaces etc.

And there's no way the cockpits will be redone now.

Choctaw111
02-13-2005, 11:07 AM
I do not think that we would care about the missing surfaces so much. Just to have the ability to use 6DoF would be enough even though the cockpits were not designed for it. Anyone who has 6DoF would be happy just to use it! I know that Bob will be designed for this and that is great but just please let us use it now. Don't let Microsoft prosper from this. Heck, in my oppinion the cockpits in CFS3 were never "complete" anyway so why do some people feel that FB/PF cockpits are not complete for this. Forget the missing surfaces! The cockpits in FB/PF look better than CFS3 no matter what anyway!!! FB/PF ROCKS!!!!!! CFS3 is just PLAIN HORRIBLE!!!!!!!...except that it supports 6DoF...

Extreme_One
02-13-2005, 12:38 PM
Oleg cares and I daresay many of the modellers would care...

Naturalpoint have said they think they could tightly lock the views to stop us from seeing missing surfaces. I don't see how though unless each cockpit had it's own stop points....

WB_Outlaw
02-13-2005, 02:04 PM
Those who say they "don't mind the missing surfaces" are missing the point. Where there are surfaces missing you will be able to see through the cockpit. So, if there were a piece of the nose missing, you would be able to see targets that should be under your nose and thus make very good deflection shots. Similarly, if there were a piece of the back of the cockpit missing, you might be able to see a bandit sneaking up on your low six (not that that really matters since the sound bug allows you to hear them from 8 km away).

Without more work to add the missing surfaces, it won't be possible.

I wish Oleg would give us an estimate of the work required. I'd wire him some cash to get it done.

-Outlaw.

Extreme_One
02-13-2005, 03:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WB_Outlaw:
...I wish Oleg would give us an estimate of the work required. I'd wire him some cash to get it done.

-Outlaw. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


lol

Any idea how many man hours are required to model one cockpit?
Multiply that by the number of cockpits...

And then multiply again by the number of dollars/pounds/roubles per hour you're going to pay the modellor to get that task completed...

I hope you have deep pockets. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

huggy87
02-13-2005, 03:54 PM
Extreme_one,
When I click on your campaign link, I get this:

The requested URL /Sims/FB/fb_campaigns_Extreme.htm was not found on this server.

I'd really like to check out your campaigns.

Sorry for the OT to the thread starter.

Choctaw111
02-13-2005, 04:47 PM
WE are talking about 6Dof here but that's ok huggy87. I guess we'll just have to wait for BoB but I still think that it is terrible that such a LAME sim like CFS3 gets to use this right away and the REAL sim, because of the REAL cockpits has to suffer. I guess in this case the LAZY people working for the LAME company(microsoft) gets to prosper because of thier lack of attention to detail! Usually the diligent (Oleg) people reap the rewards but in this case Microsoft just got lucky (the reason they're doing so well, not to mention some deception on their part). Remember how hyped up CFS3 was before it came out. Every combat flight sim enthusiast was foaming at the mouth for it. The movie that you could download a couple of months before it came out was AWESOME and then the huge letdown when you actually installed it on your machine thinking it was going to be so great and then BOOOOM!!!!! the huge dissapointment of how Microsoft was saying how great it was going to be and then you realize what a dud it really is. It was the most incomplete and buggy program I have ever tried to run. That is what I love about Oleg. He cares so much about getting it right. Anyway, I'm sorry for getting sidetracked there but Microsoft really P*SSES ME OFF!!!! FB/PF is the greatest and CFS3 is just a wanting peice of trash and again it is such a shame that they get to exploit such a great thing as 6DoF when FB/PF cannot use it just because of attention to detail when the cockpits were made...

prop-head
02-13-2005, 07:17 PM
I have to say I'm with you on this one, Chocktaw. I don't have a TIR, but in CFS3 I did fool around with the virtual viewpoint, or "Move Pilot Head" keystrokes just to see what it did. And in the one fighter I tried this with (an Me109), there were some missing poly surfaces/textures which revealed themselves when the viewpoint was pushed a little far -- like through the canopy. (And the gunsight reticle remaining fixed in place as though painted on the reflector glass was annoying and most unrealistic.) But the advantages are quite obvious!

In the IL2 series I'd not mind some missing textures as long as there were no gaping holes. Indeed, with the already implemented "Gunsight View" toggle, wherein the pilot moves fore/aft between the reclining and hunched forward positions, and the head shake feature, much of the 6DOF issues are already taken care of! Just a small amount of extra moveability would be largely sufficient, especially given the fact that most cockpits don't allow much room to maneuver (except more spacious crates such as bombers). Currently I do sometimes toggle the Gunsight view while looking about, so as to get around the obscuration caused by the cockpit framing. Being able to move smoothly between those two extremes would be better.

And on the issue of "stops" which would minimize the chance of seeing missing surfaces, such stops should be implemented anyway. For exampmle, with a 109's canopy closed you don't have much lateral range of motion before your noggin is tapping the perspex. In CFS3 one can move the viewpoint through a quite unrealistic range.

Last point on this viewpoint issue... currently the implementation of the head panning is not done properly. In the sim, as one pans horizontally, in the left-right plane, (or vertically for that matter) the virtual viewpoint remains absolutely fixed with respect to the cockpit, as though, instead of a head, you had an eye on the end of a rod coming out of your neck and spinning in place. In reality, when we turn our heads to look left or right the viewpoint actually swings somewhat through an arc. To see this, look at a nearby object while shaking your head as though indicating "NO." As seen against a more distant background, the nearby object will appear to shift laterally. Believe it or not, this was done more or less correctly in Microprose's 1942 Pacific Air War!

lbhskier37
02-13-2005, 09:37 PM
die topic die

WUAF_Toad
02-14-2005, 01:04 AM
I don't see why Oleg can just give a 5 inch cubical box of movement which would be adequate to look around most blind spots. That's fairly realistic and I don't think there there will be much problem with the missing textures. I hope Oleg atleast make an unofficial version for those who wants to play with 6D0F offline. Come to think of it he probably won't. I wonder if the trackir makers say they can implement it so a decent hacker should be able to get the job done too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif.

Scen
02-14-2005, 02:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by csThor:
It is a common thing with 3D objects to delete any non-visible surfaces. For FB/PF it means the cockpits are only complete from the programmed viewpoint(s) and moving that viewpoint would result in missing surfaces. That's a visual problem and - even if the largest 6DOF fanboys say they don't mind - would end in some kind of "money-cheat" - those who can/want to afford TIR3 can take a look around cockpit structures while those who cannot/don't see the need to buy TIR3 are left somewhat behind. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well lets kick this dead horse again.

What kind of line of thinking is that? Would you say the same to those that own a HOTAS or a set of rudder pedals? Over someone who has a 30 dollar stick?

Bottom line is a lot of guys still use mice to control their view and they do just fine.

Silly rabbit

Scendore

carguy_
02-14-2005, 02:52 PM
This thread is a dead horse.IL2 isn`t and won`t be 6FOD compatible period.

Stop playing IL2 because it is soooo bad the lazy Oleg dude is stubborn cuz he won`t remodel every single cockpit.I woul`ve pwned them 4ii with 6DOF.

Bearcat99
02-14-2005, 05:53 PM
This subject has been beaten to death some months ago in case you dont know. Simon was a gentlemen by letting this go on.. apparently youy didnt get the message when it was locked the last time. It isnt going to happen...... at least not yet anyway.... according to what Oleg and some of the modelers have said concerning the amount of work that needs to be done. This topic got quite out of hand before and there were multiple threads all over the place....... Since Simon left this open I will too.. I was going to lock it.. but lets keep all 6DoF comment s in this thread shall we..... If I see any others Ill delete them.

For the record my take is.. if it cant be done right then Id rather not see it done at all.... Gaps in the pits would surely be used as an exploit and it would also break the trend of quality good looking pits in this sim. Plus Id rather see 1C finish the addons for PF... although I am satisfied with what we have.. I would indeed like to see the rest of the sim that we were told we were going to get. I am just willing to wait untill it comes and not have a stroke over it or post a gazillion threads abot it.. but I want it just as much as the next guy... and Id rather see that and the updates first rather than have that halted to work on 6DoF. Besides...... 6DoF is nice..... but the only way for 1C to justify the manhours according to the amount of work we were told would need to be done by Oleg and Gibbage..... more than the current flock of TIR3 users would have to be here.... I mean think about it.... it is great and all but howmany of us will benifit from it? And it isnt worth leaving the sim to go to another sim that supports it IMO. I could care less if I can look around a strut if waht I see around tat strut looks cr@ppy as all get out.