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Lt.Bull
05-06-2007, 03:40 AM
Hello

I have long time been frustrated by flight sim controls. Mainly POV controls that control my vision panning around the cockpit to maintain SA. The hat on my joystick just doesnt give me the fine control I need. I know about TrackIR and think it would help. Howevr, I have thought of something that might be just as good for me.

Being right handed, I nomally fly around with my right hand controling the joystick. However, when it comes to wanting to look around my left hand mouse control is too clumsy.

What I end up doing is I take my right hand off the stick, use my right hand to control the mouse for fine control, and take the joystick in my left hand which I can just control and hold steady. I may occasionally just use my right thumb on the hat to control the POV but it is very clunky and not smooth. If I ever get close to an enemy, I take control again with my right hand but if the target now ever flys off the edge of the screen (which it almost always does), I am stuffed. My left hand cant control the joystick in a tight turning dogfight while my right hand on the mouse trres to keep the target in view, and normally I just lose track of teh target. Most frustating.

Then I got to thinking that OK, my left hand is clumsy at controling a mouse for fine POV control, however I have quite good control of my left index finger. If only I could control POV with my left index finger on something like a mouse touch pad, like you find on laptops.

It could be a touch sensitive pad that tracks where your finger is and controls where you are looking, so putting your finger in the middle centres your view, moving to the left will pan left, right you pan right etc, all smooth without any snap back. Perhaps if you want to centre your view you can just double tap the pad or something. Do you get my drift?

The pad could have labels on it so that you go directly to a view by pressing there...or by dragging it there for a smooth tranistion.

So does anyone know if anything like this exists? It could really just a be a USB connected device, that perhaps just substitutes a normal mouse.

Just try moving your left index finger around on the desk while flying right hand on joystick (if you are a right hander of course). You will be surprised at how comfortable it is (you dont need to lift your wrist off the desk) and how much fine control you do have compared to using your whole left hand to control a mouse.

Having somthing like that to control my POV I am sure would make flying IL2 much more fun and rewarding than what it currently is.

Cheers

Bull

FoolTrottel
05-06-2007, 04:17 AM
These touchpad thingies are available:
http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_images/smart_cat_touchpad_small.jpg

Just acting as a mouse. Like them pads on portable computers.
Should be available in PS/2 and USB.

Dunno what brands/models have/are the good ones...

Have Fun!

slipBall
05-06-2007, 04:34 AM
This "mini stick" works well for me, my left thumb is my eyes...set the mouse speed higher in game, after awhile as good as trackir


http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f394/SlipBall/ScreenHunter_26.jpg

Lt.Bull
05-06-2007, 04:51 AM
I just did a search amd found THIS!

The Ergonomic Touchpad (http://ergonomictouchpad.com/)

http://members.iinet.net.au/~lt.bull/ergonomictouchpadglidepoint.gif

This is EXACTLY what I was looking for! Isn't it great when you think pf something that SHOULD be available and it is.

With a money back guarantee, I think this might just be able to solve my freakn flight sim SA woes. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bull

FoolTrottel
05-06-2007, 05:15 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

buzzsaw1939
05-06-2007, 10:22 AM
I am absolutly blown away with this tread!!!..I think just the way you do LT.Bull, and was trying to figure some way to do that, I wasn't that happy with haveing to train my head movements with trackIR, after putting in over 10,000 hrs in the real thing, it didn't thrill me, what a brilliant Idea! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif how many of you guys knew about this and kept it to yourselves? (somebody slap em!!) I've noticed since I joined this forum, that Fooltrottel is one of the more helpfull people in here, thanks guy. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

EiZ0N
05-06-2007, 02:02 PM
This is EXACTLY what I was looking for! Isn't it great when you think pf something that SHOULD be available and it is.
I prefer to think of things that should be available but aren't. Then maybe I can make some money http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm left handed, and fly the stick with my left. However, since it's a right hand world, I use the mouse with my right. Therefore mouse and stick are awesomely perfect for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You could easily learn to use the mouse with your left hand, you just aren't trying hard enough.

I'm much better at using a mouse with the right hand, despite being left handed, simply because I have more practice with my right. Therefore, rather than buying weirdlittle devices, just learn to use the other hand!

FluffyDucks2
05-07-2007, 04:18 AM
Talk about making things difficult for your self...track IR is the ONLY way to go...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

http://www.naturalpoint.com/trackir/02-products/product-how-TrackIR-works.html

TAW_Oilburner
05-07-2007, 05:09 AM
Originally posted by FluffyDucks2:
Talk about making things difficult for your self...track IR is the ONLY way to go...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

http://www.naturalpoint.com/trackir/02-products/product-how-TrackIR-works.html

I agree...really, it's not a big learning curve (took me around 2-3 hours to get comfortable with it once you get the movement speed set right).

FluffyDucks2
05-07-2007, 05:21 AM
Took me maybe 15 minutes...and then I wondered how I EVER flew a sim without it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Within a day or so you simply forget you are using it, it is so natural, you only remember how GOOD it is when for some reason you forget to switch it on before going in game, then it feels like you have been paralysed... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

buzzsaw1939
05-07-2007, 04:12 PM
I have no dought you guys are right, it was on my next to buy list, and may still be, however when I started thinking about it, and reading about it, I realized I might have a problem, on top of being 68 years old, I have to wear try focals, emagine what thats going to be like, in order to look behind me, I'll only be able to turn my head about20 degrees, and look up about 10 degrees, for some of us the pad idea is great. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

stalkervision
05-07-2007, 05:35 PM
I have heard some recent experimental work by the chinese it this area. It is called a pov/mouse/rump pad. One sits on his mouse and changes one's view with his butt. It is a bit hard on the mouse though so they are also working on a sturdy "chinese pov butt mouse"

Lt.Bull
05-07-2007, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by FluffyDucks2:
Talk about making things difficult for your self...track IR is the ONLY way to go...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

http://www.naturalpoint.com/trackir/02-products/product-how-TrackIR-works.html

Yeah I am sure TrackIR works well. For what you pay, it better work well.

But I am quietly confident I will surprise myself at just how efective one of these Ergonomic Touchpads will be at doing effectively the same thing.

Thanks for trying to convince me otherwise but I have already ordered one and the real test is when I actually get to fly online to test it. Apart from being relatively inexpensive and unobstrusive, it is a cool item to have and use anyway for genearl PC use even if I find it ain't the best for IL2, so it's a win-win.

Put it this way. If I (or even buzzsaw1969) see you flying online and I (we) manage to smoke you, I (we) will make sure you know all about it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

Lt Bull http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

buzzsaw1939
05-07-2007, 07:03 PM
I knew I was going to love this thread, LOL http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

buzzsaw1939
05-07-2007, 07:14 PM
Thanks alot Stalkervision.... Now my wife wants to get a butt mouse. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

stalkervision
05-08-2007, 05:46 AM
Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Thanks alot Stalkervision.... Now my wife wants to get a butt mouse. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Just don't tell her about the "force feedback" version.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

buzzsaw1939
05-08-2007, 07:33 AM
OOOPPs.... are you in the right forum?? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

RxMan
05-08-2007, 07:38 AM
I have one of those mouse touch pads somewhere. I bought and used it with my Win95 system and a flight sim way back when. Can't even remember which sim it was, I have them all, well almost all. As I don't have much sensation in my fingers (neck injury) I didn't find it very useful. I couldn't tell if I was touching it or not. I'm sure it's packed away in one of my many boxes. If you can't find one to try, let me know.
rxman at worldnet dot att dot net

buzzsaw1939
05-08-2007, 07:59 AM
Thanks for the offer RxMan... I understand about your neck prob, I'm fighting with my rudder pedals, (ruptured disk in lower back) they don't seem to want to do what I tell them. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

jotaele_nares
05-08-2007, 08:42 AM
lt.Bull my experience has been that:
1- fist contact with il2 mouse and padlock(il2 has the best sistem)
2-i started to use mouse, and forgot the padlock
3_i buy track ir, with vector, but for rapid doghtfight i was more effective with padlock, specially looking 6 hight.
3 actually i enjoy with trak ir, and use the mouse in specific moment, when i need specially stable view for searching dots or tracking ground.

I really encourage the use of the mouse, I put it just at the left of my joy(i have the trottel in the joy base), and the keyboard at left of mouse so in my keypad its near my hand.then the best for my is set kp_intro wide view, kp_plus middle view, and kp_minus large zoom
but the most important to made confortable with the mouse uses its to up the sensitivility a lot, so you only need a few touch to put the view angle where you want.
I use too a button on the joybase to center the view, so when i put the sight_view with zoom after a mouse movement or after locking the track ir, i rapidly can center the view.

Anyway i want to use only trackir due to bob:SOW
when 6dof arrives, if you uses the mouse you will need 6 new key to move your head´s point of view , and with track ir its a simple task.
In mfsx, i use only track ir, but the movements of the planes ar not so hard, but i set off the track ir unit to use mouse over instruments in a more stable way.
I hoe you can understand my poor english and that this helps.
i remember that i was searching for similar hardware, actually i forget it.
pd: it takes short time to learn the left hand to moves the mouse as well as you need.
ppd:think in future, buy a track ir, if not for il2 for choppers in FS, or in black sharcks, or knights of the sky.

MAX_theHitman
05-09-2007, 06:17 AM
Originally posted by Lt.Bull:
I just did a search amd found THIS!

The Ergonomic Touchpad (http://ergonomictouchpad.com/)

http://members.iinet.net.au/~lt.bull/ergonomictouchpadglidepoint.gif

This is EXACTLY what I was looking for! Isn't it great when you think pf something that SHOULD be available and it is.

With a money back guarantee, I think this might just be able to solve my freakn flight sim SA woes. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bull

This looks like a GREAT genious gadget!! I think I will get this one. Great thing someone already thought of this and is making them!

Thnaks for posting up this great news! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers
MAX

smatchimo
05-09-2007, 09:09 PM
I dont know how many times I wondered out loud why this hasnt been implamented on a flight stick.
Its a great option for folks who dont have the option or just dont want a Track IR ( not me I cant WAIT to get one, but only since they introduced 6dof and the ear piece) and sounds as though it would be a hek of alot smoother than current options,excluding Track IR, but at $200 a pop it better be good.
But please report back on how it works for ya, if there arent any gamebreakers (slow or bad response, or over sensitivity would be my only concerns) But if you give it a thumbs up I will place my order immediately.
Dont worry I will only post if I like it, I wont blame you if its not for me, at that price you really can not lose.

Cheers!

Lt.Bull
05-09-2007, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by smatchimo:
I dont know how many times I wondered out loud why this hasnt been implamented on a flight stick.
Its a great option for folks who dont have the option or just dont want a Track IR ( not me I cant WAIT to get one, but only since they introduced 6dof and the ear piece) and sounds as though it would be a hek of alot smoother than current options,excluding Track IR, but at $200 a pop it better be good.
But please report back on how it works for ya, if there arent any gamebreakers (slow or bad response, or over sensitivity would be my only concerns) But if you give it a thumbs up I will place my order immediately.
Dont worry I will only post if I like it, I wont blame you if its not for me, at that price you really can not lose.

Cheers!

I don't think I can go wrong with this. There may be some "calibration" of the mouse sensitivity to get it right and perhaps some key mapping. The Ergonomic Touchpad also gives right mouse click, left mouse click and scroll control.

They said 7-21 days delivery so maybe I get it next week at the earliest. I will definitely let you guys know how I go. I am so looking forward to ending my many years of crappy POV control while trying to enjoy IL2.

Lt Bull

smatchimo
05-10-2007, 03:09 AM
Amen Bull, Fear not, we are definitely watching the beginning of the end of clunky view systems and worn out hat switches. Track IR will eventually run out of major features to add and/or someone will have the opportunity to provide some competition and force the prices down. The TIR is already becoming pretty unobtrusive w/ the smaller sensor and ear piece,and I'm sure will develop into a small one piece "motion sensor" kind of thing at some point.

Eventually flight sims will be designed for head tracking devices from the get go,some already are. It'll be a few years, but we'll see it.

And until then I also have a good feeling the touch pad is the way to go. Prob just going to order it tommorow, hell it costs a LOT more to fill my gas tank once. Why pretend $25 means anything anymorehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif At the moment 6dof is the biggest attraction to me, but most of my flight simming is IL2,and 6dof aint gonna happen, so I'm in no hurry to go TIR.
And the touch pad will fee up the mouse control on my X-45 for games that use the 6DOF feature.

P.S.- If there is a way to PM in these forums send me one, I want to ask ya a question. Ill be signing off till thurs afternoon (AZ,USA). Ill check this post to see if your around.

Cheers!

buzzsaw1939
05-10-2007, 11:00 AM
LT. Bull... I told you it was a good thread! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif I've been experimenting a little, since my mouse is already set up sensitive, I think it's going to work for me, I'll use a button on my joy for guick center view, I'm just wondering if you can have two mouses at the same time? I suppose I could figure out some kind of alternater switch! i'm looking for the pad locally, I'm impatient!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

FoolTrottel
05-10-2007, 03:19 PM
I'm just wondering if you can have two mouses at the same time?
Sure you can!

But, as far as I know, you can't assign different/separate functions to it.
(They will operate as being clones, twins or somethin')

buzzsaw1939
05-10-2007, 03:49 PM
Thanks Fooltrottel... I guess I'll have to figure out the functions when I find one! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Chris0382
05-10-2007, 07:50 PM
I use an expert mouse trackball. I have 2 track balls and 2 sticks with a trackball on each side. 1 trackball is with the 2 sticks on a rectangular piece of caulkboard and the other TB on the arm rest.

buzzsaw1939
05-10-2007, 09:24 PM
Thats a coincidence, I just drug out my track ball this morning, to see what I could do with it, I think if I put a spot of some thing on the ball, to center my finger, it might work, I can't find anything in the local stores! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Lt.Bull
05-11-2007, 05:51 AM
The more I think about it, the more I can't understand how anyone could say that, given the choice between using a traditional mouse (either natural or opposite hand) and using a finger touchpad, that the mouse is still better/prefered choice or that it is at least equal to using a touchpad.

When you think about how a mouse funamentally works, the answer is apparent. When you use a mouse, in order for you to make the mouse move precisely up/down/left/right/diagnolly across the screen is in part dependant on the users ability to KEEP TEH MOUSE POINTING FORWARD while moving the mouse around. This is what makes using a mouse on your opposite hand so much more difficult. Not only do you have to move the mouse in the direction you want it to go, you MUST ALSO make sure you keep the mouse pointed FORWARD at all times whiel you are moving it. It certainly is NOT a very ergonomic device to be using for precise work and not very natural. You use your whole hnd and strain muscles in your wrist trying to keep the mouse pointed forward.

Using a touchpad DOES NOT require you to use any muscles in your hand to keep ANYTHING pointing forward while simultaneously trying to tell the mouse pointer on the screen where to go. You just move one finger in the direction you want the mouse (or POV in our case) to move and it doesnt matter if your hand is crooked or your finger not exactly straight whiel you do that. Unlike a mouse, you can easily rest basically most of your hand/palm on the desk and only use muscles in your very precise index finger to control the mouse pointer/POV.

Lt Bull

Bearcat99
05-11-2007, 08:46 AM
Before I got my TIR I used to use the mouse button on my X-45.. which IMO is better than a normal mouse or a pad because your hands are always on the stick.

Philipscdrw
05-11-2007, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by Lt.Bull:
I just did a search amd found THIS!

The Ergonomic Touchpad (http://ergonomictouchpad.com/)

http://members.iinet.net.au/~lt.bull/ergonomictouchpadglidepoint.gif

This is EXACTLY what I was looking for! Isn't it great when you think pf something that SHOULD be available and it is.

With a money back guarantee, I think this might just be able to solve my freakn flight sim SA woes. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bull

The voiceover on the infomercial is... strange...

6ft extension cord. Great idea for a prank - connect it to someone else's PC and control their cursor with it at odd moments... would be great in the university library.

buzzsaw1939
05-11-2007, 09:14 AM
OK.... Heres my report on the track ball, It's an old one, but like new, (didn't like it!) It's very interesting, it's much better then the hat switch, but, it slips in it's cage so I end up haveing to roll it with 2 fingers and and move my hand around, I had to use the regular mouse for gunnery, but thats not a prob, like LT.Bull, I would rather rest my palm and just use my index finger, I think I'll use it till he get's his, and tells us how it works for him! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

buzzsaw1939
06-13-2007, 12:20 PM
LT. Bull.....Whats the word on the touch pad?? did you ever get it, and how dose it work for you?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Lehnert
06-13-2007, 02:46 PM
Hello,
1) use the left Coolie-hat from the Saitek X-52 as POV. It works like the mouse. Very good.

or
2) use a PC Dash 2 command pad.
The left Coolie-hat works like a POV with the mouse and you can describe the moving speed
by yourself
and
you can use this POV with the left dump while
using a throttle too.
Very very good.

I use the second point and I have sold my TrackIr Version 2 because the PC Dash 2 ist the better way for me.

Unfortunately the PC Dash 2 is running out from
sold and you can only find someone by eBay or so - but not cheap.

Cheers
Gerhard


Originally posted by Lt.Bull:
Hello

I have long time been frustrated by flight sim controls. Mainly POV controls that control my vision panning around the cockpit to maintain SA. The hat on my joystick just doesnt give me the fine control I need. I know about TrackIR and think it would help. Howevr, I have thought of something that might be just as good for me.

Being right handed, I nomally fly around with my right hand controling the joystick. However, when it comes to wanting to look around my left hand mouse control is too clumsy.

What I end up doing is I take my right hand off the stick, use my right hand to control the mouse for fine control, and take the joystick in my left hand which I can just control and hold steady. I may occasionally just use my right thumb on the hat to control the POV but it is very clunky and not smooth. If I ever get close to an enemy, I take control again with my right hand but if the target now ever flys off the edge of the screen (which it almost always does), I am stuffed. My left hand cant control the joystick in a tight turning dogfight while my right hand on the mouse trres to keep the target in view, and normally I just lose track of teh target. Most frustating.

Then I got to thinking that OK, my left hand is clumsy at controling a mouse for fine POV control, however I have quite good control of my left index finger. If only I could control POV with my left index finger on something like a mouse touch pad, like you find on laptops.

It could be a touch sensitive pad that tracks where your finger is and controls where you are looking, so putting your finger in the middle centres your view, moving to the left will pan left, right you pan right etc, all smooth without any snap back. Perhaps if you want to centre your view you can just double tap the pad or something. Do you get my drift?

The pad could have labels on it so that you go directly to a view by pressing there...or by dragging it there for a smooth tranistion.

So does anyone know if anything like this exists? It could really just a be a USB connected device, that perhaps just substitutes a normal mouse.

Just try moving your left index finger around on the desk while flying right hand on joystick (if you are a right hander of course). You will be surprised at how comfortable it is (you dont need to lift your wrist off the desk) and how much fine control you do have compared to using your whole left hand to control a mouse.

Having somthing like that to control my POV I am sure would make flying IL2 much more fun and rewarding than what it currently is.

Cheers

Bull

Mc_Wolf
06-15-2007, 02:42 AM
http://media.allrefer.com/s1/l/l0064800-latitude.jpg
I think about it for some time, now use NewView. but if our joystick have two wheels to control latitude and longitude position, it will be more accurate. The bad thing is it will occupy two buttons

Lt.Bull
06-15-2007, 03:44 AM
Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
LT. Bull.....Whats the word on the touch pad?? did you ever get it, and how dose it work for you?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Hello buzzsaw1939 and all

Yes I finally did get my Ergonomic Touchpad! After some delay in delivery it finally turned up a week or two ago. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Unfortunately I have been extremely busy with some other things and I have not had much time for IL2 or fully test out the touchpad in game, but from the short amount of evaluation time I have had (15min), the touchpad works as I expected....very well!

It plugs in directly to a USB port just like a mouse. I position it on my desktop so it is very close and about at the 10-11 o'click positon relative to the joystick. I evern angle it so it points slightly to the right as that matches how my left hand is normally orientated when controlling the joystick. Here my left hand index finger can use the touchpad and be within easy reach of the joystick control buttons on the left side of the joystick base if I need them all without moving my left hand palm off the desktop....it definitely blows away any full hand mouse control for both control and usability, that is for sure!
eg. When on an enemy's 6 and I use the zoomed in gunsights view, I no longer lose track of them if they just move out of the field of view. I can now easily nudge my view to keep them on screen while I maintain fill control of the joystick.

I hope to be able to get a better evaluation this weekend by flying on a few servers, but so far so good! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lt Bull

buzzsaw1939
06-15-2007, 10:19 AM
thanks for the reply! it sounds promising!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Tiger27
06-16-2007, 06:09 AM
Ive been using a trackball with my left hand for years, you only need to flick your fingers around and theres 4 buttons all at $30au, cant see how a touch screen would be any better, as you cant flick your view around the cockpit like you can with the trackball.

Given the cash though I would convert to the trackIR as it frees up both hands and 6DOF is on the way wit BoB

Schithawk
06-26-2007, 02:16 AM
Howdy fellas. I use a saitek evo ffb as main stick and this in other hand
http://www.gamechronicles.com/gear/pc/logitechcordless/rumblepad2.htm
has 2 mini joysticks , 8 point hat switch , 8 programmable buttons plus a mode button, 2 forcefeedback motors. etc.
easily use both mini sticks and pov simultaineously with one hand. very comfertable i hardly ever have to look at keyboard anymore.
I am definitely not a logitech fan but this is a real nice product which i've incorporated into the game. actually , I used a logitech stick to make my pedals with.

Cheers

~Haggard~