PDA

View Full Version : maneuverability p51 or corsair?



fordfan25
10-16-2004, 06:57 PM
wich one was a more maneuverable plane up high?also hellcat.Im asking becouse i fly U.S planes alot and my usual ride is the stang wich "I" find it imposable to beat a La7 or yak3 up high on vet or ace setting one on one. not looking for easy kill or anything its just that i dont stand a chance. down low its not so bad.so im woundering if switching to the corsair or maby even the hellcat when PF comes out will help or not.

snYpr202
10-16-2004, 07:11 PM
P51...... it was designed for this purpose... to escort bombers on high altitude and figh german planes there http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Waldo.Pepper
10-16-2004, 07:28 PM
In America's Hundred Thousand the Corsair could consistantly outturn the P51.

horseback
10-16-2004, 07:33 PM
Corsair or Hellcat would be much more maneuverable below 7000m, but the Mustang would be the better choice for higher alts, and the P-47 better still...

The F4U-4 model may have been better than the AAF fighters at higher alts, but 1) it's not available on PF and 2)it was a late '44 bird at best.

However, if you're not beating the La-7 or YaK-3 online above 7000m with a Pony, you should consult with the online experts. If you're playing offline, you should remember that AI flight models are greatly simplified, and the veterans and above simply cheat. They have predictable routines, but their aircraft can do things the real ones couldn't, so fighting them isn't going to get you a realistic result.

cheers

horseback

Waldo.Pepper
10-16-2004, 07:34 PM
and outroll it as well.

fordfan25
10-16-2004, 07:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horseback:
Corsair or Hellcat would be much more maneuverable below 7000m, but the Mustang would be the better choice for higher alts, and the P-47 better still...

The F4U-4 model may have been better than the AAF fighters at higher alts, but 1) it's not available on PF and 2)it was a late '44 bird at best.

However, if you're not beating the La-7 or YaK-3 online above 7000m with a Pony, you should consult with the online experts. If you're playing offline, you should remember that AI flight models are greatly simplified, and the veterans and above simply _cheat._ They have predictable routines, but their aircraft can do things the real ones couldn't, so fighting them isn't going to get you a realistic result.

cheers

horseback <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

O heck i didnt even think about that"enemy AI cheat" i my self noticed that the yak 3 "when i was flying it"didnt seem to turn much better than the pony but it could out turn me when i was in a pony two to one almost.

fordfan25
10-16-2004, 07:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
In America's Hundred Thousand the Corsair could consistantly outturn the P51. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

what is the "Hundred Thousand "?

SkyChimp
10-16-2004, 08:17 PM
America's Hundred Thousand: US Production Fighters Of WWII by Francis Dean is an important reference book an American WWII fighters. It contains huge quantities of performance data.

http://www.schifferbooks.com/newschiffer/images/book_images/0764300725.gif

Fliger747
10-16-2004, 08:25 PM
Hard to say how the aircraft models will compare in PF, but the Hellcat with it's big wing and two stage supercharger was good at high altitude, supposedly better than the zero up there! Give it a try when the game comes out(soon) and let us know!

Then again, little fighting (less than Europe) was done at really high altitude in the Pacific.

Future-
10-16-2004, 08:44 PM
Looking at the winggeometry of the Corsair, I guess she should be a good turner.
I hope the Corsair will be as good as it looks...

But as some already said here, I think P-51 should have the upper hand on high alt, while the Corsair might have an advantage down low.

Oh well, I guess we'll see... soon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!

Willey
10-16-2004, 09:35 PM
The Corsair has ~32mÔ┬▓ wing area and weighs some 5200kg at TO weight and a little below 5 tons with 25% fuel. Not to forget it's powered by a R-2800-8(W) which produces 2000(~2300)hp. And AFAIK it has a 2 stage 2 speed supercharger or something like that for high altitudes.

Future-
10-16-2004, 10:34 PM
And this means... ?

horseback
10-17-2004, 12:39 AM
USAAF and Navy/Marine pilots all along the Eastern Seaboard of the US made it a regular practice to bounce each other. It was quickly established that the P-47 and the Mustang held the performance advantage above 20,000 ft, while below that altitude, the guys in the blue airplanes held a decided advantage, since their superchargers were geared for those altitudes, and their planes could turn a lot tighter.

After being beaten in a 'rat race' or a low-level dogfight, the Army pilots would often be seen holding up their oxygen masks and pointing 'upstairs' for the next round. Smart Naval aviators passed up on that offer.

cheers

horseback

TooCool_12f
10-17-2004, 04:07 AM
If you want to know which one would be more manouverable; the answer is: the navy planes, they had high lift wings, compared to which the P51's wing lifted very little. It was designed to fly with least possible drag, up high. So, the P51 should have speed advantage at high altitudes, allowing it to dictate the fight up there. But it couldn't turn with corsair ou hellcat. The P47 would be more likely to do so.

Down low, superior power of the corsair would give it an advantage in all aspects, however.

Ak.St.Bubi
10-17-2004, 06:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
_America's Hundred Thousand: US Production Fighters Of WWII_ by Francis Dean is an important reference book an American WWII fighters. It contains huge quantities of performance data.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will definitely buy this book, thanks a bunch for posting the reference http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

VF-3Thunderboy
10-17-2004, 12:19 PM
I wouldnt call the Corsair manuverable in the standard sense.Its boom and zoom, better than the P-38, but its not a tight turner.
A great Roll rate, but the Hellcat would be the plane you want for manuverability.
The P-51 should out perform anything. If you cant beat AI in a dogfight, you may be doing something wrong in setting up the mission.

DangerForward
10-17-2004, 03:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
In America's Hundred Thousand the Corsair could consistantly outturn the P51. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At the back of the book isn't the Corsair supposed to be the worst turning US fighter plane? Table 103.

SkyChimp
10-17-2004, 04:09 PM
Danger, that chart is one of the few in the book that is troublesome.

The rankings are based on comparitive turns against the FM-2. The FM-2 was the tightest turning fighter covered by the book, so all the other fighters are judged against it.

The problem appears to stem from the lift coefficients ascribed to the various planes. You'll see that the lift coefficients given are purportedly coefficients WITHOUT lift enhancing devices. But the F4U is given the LOWEST lift coefficient - significantly lower. In fact, only the F4U's lift coefficient appears to have been a coefficient without flaps. To get lift coefficients as high as the other planes in the list, it seems flaps would have had to have been employed.

If there an ambiguous chart in AHT, that's it.

Tests between the P-51B and the F4U-1 indicate that the F4U was more manueverable in every respect.

DangerForward
10-17-2004, 07:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
Tests between the P-51B and the F4U-1 indicate that the F4U was more manueverable in every respect. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was surprised by that table also. As a result I wondered if "manueverable" refered to roll rate, which is a corsair strength.

fordfan25
10-17-2004, 08:46 PM
whats the fastest corsair moddle that is being released?

SkyChimp
10-17-2004, 09:28 PM
The F4U-1A, F4U-1D and F4U-1C should all perform about the same:

http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/f4u_speed.jpg

The pink line represents a F4U-1A with full fuel and armament, and poor finish, without a tailhook. The Corsairs in PF SHOULD match it closely.

Fliger747
10-17-2004, 10:48 PM
The other issue is high altitude manuverability. A tricky subject, one which I have not seen alot of info on. In the thirties (thousands of feet), with the types of aircraft we are talking about here handling becomes very delicate, as there is little aerodynamic dampening. Symptoms are a tendency to over control and a lack of stability. Additionally as the service cieling is approached the stall/manuver margin becomes very small. U2 Guys fly on autopilot at very high altitude for these reasons. You aren't going to be doing any steeply banked turns or much of anything very radical up there. To sustain any G load at all one has to sacrifice altitude, then the danger of pointing downhill in the thin air is getting into Mach limit problems.

The only reasons to go that high is to (1) catch a recon bird (2) get an energy advantage on some other guy who is wanting one on everyone else. Tricky flying up there!

fordfan25
10-17-2004, 11:34 PM
thanks sky chimp and everyone. helpfull as always.so that chart skychimp, shows 430mph at 20000 feet right? thats good right?......hmm add super charger and im sure my truck will hit that lol

fordfan25
10-17-2004, 11:40 PM
O and one last qustion what does something like 20,000 feet translate into on that alt meter in game? i usually fly to start a fight at 7500 in quick mission what would that be in feet about?

flemsha
10-18-2004, 12:11 AM
20,000 feet is 6096 meters, so the speedbar, assuming it is the same as in Il-2/FB will show 6096 as the altitute. Of course the instrument panels of American aircraft should show it in feet so that won't be a problem. I'm not sure about Japanese aircraft, I think they used metric measurements??

BfHeFwMe
10-18-2004, 12:34 AM
Seem to remember the Corsair film over at Zeno's stated flaps weren't useable for turning in combat abd not to do it. They said you must use the massive engine power and climb out or seperate. Could it be the gull shaped wing made flap useage a bit unstable in high G?

VF-3Thunderboy
10-18-2004, 12:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Could it be the gull shaped wing made flap useage a bit unstable in high G? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You cant ususally use landing flaps over 140 KTS, well under the max G-capabilities. At 140KTS, youd be lucky to hit 3.5 G's, unless your real abrupt, but abrupt pull out might then stall the wing...

Ive heard that "combat"flaps were useable in combat, IE the first setting only, in Corsairs...???

WUAF_Badsight
10-18-2004, 01:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fordfan25:
my usual ride is the stang wich "I" find it imposable to beat a La7 or yak3 up high on vet or ace setting one on one. not looking for easy kill or anything its just that i dont stand a chance. down low its not so bad.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that staement makes me wonder what game your playing

the LA-7 performs better under 4K than above it

the Mustang , along with the Mk9 Spitfire are the best DFers over 6K (with the Jug having dominance over 8k over both of them)

the Mustang will beat a LA-7 in a single 360 degree turn & will be able to shoot first at the end of its turn while the LA-7 still has a slight amount to go before it has you in its gunsight

Fliger747
10-18-2004, 11:39 AM
Flaps were available for manuver in the F4U series.

Power helps here, a lot as by increasing the CL max (extending flaps), one increases the CD (drag) a bunch. At high angles of attack in tight manuver, power, lots, is needed to maintain energy, speed and altitude.

Lunix
10-19-2004, 01:17 AM
I think the pony was just inferior to the Yak3-9 and the La7 in a 1vs1 df. Thats why I dont fly either, too easy.

geetarman
10-19-2004, 10:32 AM
In my experience the best way to beat a LA-7 driver on line while flying a P-51 is to goad him above 3000 meters.

The performance of the Russian plane really starts to fall off as you go above that alt. The Mustang really holds the cards at that point if flown properly (i.e. maintaining focus on speed, speed, speed).

Can't wait to try a Corsair (and the Wildcat!).