PDA

View Full Version : high speed maneouvrability: How to get the most out of it?



FatBoyHK
12-28-2004, 12:52 PM
Some planes are more maneouvrable at high speed, such as Mustang an FW. When flying these birds against others with better low speed maneouvrability (such as BF), in most cases my six will be occupied pretty soon, even if I started with some E advantage. I tried to keep my speed high and go for vertical, but it seem to be a losing battle for me, and soon I need to disengage. What I have missed?

StellarRat
12-28-2004, 01:14 PM
You turned didn't you? Use the one turn rule: You come in at high speed 600+ kph turn up to 90 degrees to get on target (if necessary) and then leave to setup for the next pass. Don't hang around to dogfight. If 90 degrees doesn't work leave get altitude and speed and try again later. You can take advantage of your high speed maneouvrability by diving away and using your superior elevators to break away.

ZG77_Lignite
12-28-2004, 07:12 PM
Another way to look at it might be like this: At high speeds, many aircraft can't turn as sharp as you. To utilize this, you MUST maintain high speeds (500kph+).

However, as you said, the problem is that the enemy aircraft will simply slow down, and turn sharper than you! However, this is NOT a bad thing, in fact it is the goal of every energy fighter. The relative positions of aircraft are unimportant as long as you are out of guns range (and can stay out of guns range, which is the tricky part), what IS important is the relative energy states.

If you are maintaining your high speeds (or energy state), all you need to do is stay out of guns range of the enemy until he bleeds his speed (energy state) to a point where you can easily dispatch him (meaning you can afford to burn some energy/speed to get a kill shot). Its not easy, but it can be effective.

FatBoyHK
12-28-2004, 07:30 PM
I understand that. However, It seem to me that they don't lose much energy when they perform a high G turn to get my six. Now, with similar energy state, they just stay at my six and this effectively drive me out of the battle.

FatBoyHK
12-28-2004, 10:46 PM
following up my last post, I heard that the game engine doesn't have a correct modelling of energy loss inducted by high G turns... that is why a spitfire can catch a FW even after performing a 180 degree break.... is that true?

Fehler
12-29-2004, 03:16 AM
Let's look at the example you are talking about FW-190 vs. Spit - similar year models.

Say you are the 190 driver and dive onto a Spit. You have created (Most likely) a higher energy state for yourself. You dive in on your target and fire. Hopefully you hit! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But let's say you dont. Do not pull up hard to zoom away. The tighter you turn/pull the faster you will bleed your energy. always make maneuvers gently to maintain the energy advantage you gained in the first place. Also remember that zoom climb does not mean hyper-jump. You may still be in gun range of the Spit for a short period of time, and in that time he may get off a snap shot on you.

That's why I usually extend away slightly before zooming back up into position. The Spit is less likely to get off that snap shot, and I will bleed a lot less energy in the process. Also, remember to use your fantastic roll advantage against the Spit to create escape angles. All of this is totally determined by how well you judged your targets initial energy state in the first place.

Personally, I like to attack in the zoom, not the dive. I like to dive below my target and fire at him in the zoom climb. I am in his blind spot when I am shooting, I am effectively zooming and extending away at the same time, and it allows me to get a better idea of his energy state for the yo-yo attack. (That's the way Galland liked to attack as well)

The thing I see so many FW pilots do online is yank their stick back too hard when zooming away, and bleeding off way too much energy. The Spit is a great turner and even with a little energy can pull up to shoot at you in the FW. If you make this mistake, you take away the advantages of your plane, and make the playing ground more even for the Spit pilot. On an even ground, he will best you.

OldMan____
12-29-2004, 03:48 AM
Just keep fast and know when to do it. Just after thta dive your spit target is doing to scape you.. he will notice he needs to turn (diving from a FW is a task for USAAF planes only). He will think he is safe. But in THAT turn at 500+ kph you can VERY EASILY outturn him. So use it. Do not take time to get a 100% sure shot. Just make him disapear under your nose and blast him. After some practice you will hit 50% or more of time (My measure gives me about > 70% succes on hitting a least one canon muzzle at 250 m on this situation). Than back off yout turn.. you will see if you hitted. Than what to do is based on his maneuver. If it increases the turn.. you go vertical.. if he reverses and /or dive.. go blast him.

Just be careful.. after this maneuver you will probably have another spitfire comming at your tail http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

FatBoyHK
12-29-2004, 04:02 AM
Actually, I have little problem if I have significant E advantage. In that cases I can at least force him to bug out. However, what are the options when the advantage is not so great? for example, Mustang vs 109, if we merge co-alt but I am about 50 MPH faster? I found that even I extense right away, he can turn around and keep up with me.... and it won't be much better if I go for vertical, it is just a matter of time before he get my six. I actually tried to provoke him to do all kind of bleeding turns, but seem the effect is necglable, he can still keep up with me after that.

WUAF_Badsight
12-29-2004, 04:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
What I have missed? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
besides keeping E & your opponents skill level ?

E is not speed

E is not Altitude

keeping E & yet still gaining your bandits six is not something learnt in 5 minutes

99.9% of A2A combat is lost rather than won

99.9% of online fights are lost thru mistakes on the victims part rather than the perfect manouvering of your bandit

FatBoyHK
12-29-2004, 08:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
besides keeping E & your opponents skill level ?

E is not speed

E is not Altitude

keeping E & yet still gaining your bandits six is not something learnt in 5 minutes

99.9% of A2A combat is lost rather than won

99.9% of online fights are lost thru mistakes on the victims part rather than the perfect manouvering of your bandit <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

so?

geetarman
12-29-2004, 11:42 AM
I know the problem you're facing. My advice to you would be to avoid getting near any e/a unless you have a significant advantage in speed and altitude.

I know it sounds pat, but it's the truth. Your odds of success drop considerably if you are near e/a with only a marginal advantage. You better hope you are either better than the opponent or you're luckier. Many Mustang pilots go down this way.

Your (and my) favorite plane is just not that good against Spits and 109's at co-e situations. You can win, but you very well might lose.

Now flip the situation - you hold all the cards. You've got more E going (actual and stored). There are not many planes in the sim that exploit that situation better than the Mustang. The hardest part is controlling the plane while buzzing down on your target at 450mph!

Try this - forget what you know about the P-51's high speed performance, particularly in turns. Get a healthy E advanatge and keep it. Forget about following a breaking e/a by turning hard. Fly past (unlikely you will get caught) and gain more altitude and either come back or look for another target.

I got a chuckle once when I read a quote from Bud Anderson. He stated he never, repeat, never, turned with the German planes. We're not talking Zero's here! Even so, he felt it ruined the advantages his Mustang held over the 190's and 109's.

Final thought - see how well you do when you switch from making it your primary mission to get kills, to getting home alive. The kills will come. The margin of safety you employ to survive the mission will pay dividends in your overall success as a Mustang pilot.

Bull_dog_
12-29-2004, 12:00 PM
I believe there are aspects of real life combat that don't translate well into a game or simulator...high speed maneuvering is one of them...dive speed which related to high speed manuevering doesn't translate well nor do things like cockpit visibility, gunnery, G's, fatigue etc.

When you think about high speed manuevering, I'd recommend you change the context with which you think about them...think energy fighting.

I believe, in real life, a P-38 Lightning or Fw for example, could keep its speed well above 300mph indicated and a 109 or Spitfire would have to abort, climb to slow down etc because they could neither turn as tight due to elevator authority or change direction due to ailerons authority. A tight turning Spitfire could be out turned by a Mustang above certain speeds...it is a fact...problem is the Spitfire in this game retains enough elevator authority at this speed to black out so it can stay with the Mustang through the high speed turn. In real life, if the same thing happened and the Spitfire continued to spiral a high speed turn fight, the Mustang would eventually find its way onto its six and shoot it down... I really believe that is where most of the inconsistancy comes from in combat reports vs. in game experiences...this just isn't modelled well in the game.

Most fighters, with the exception of a P-38 or maybe a model or two of the 109, can pull blackout G levels even at high speed. So the G level becomes the limiting factor instead of the elevator or aileron authority. I don't think this is correct, but it is how things are modelled. Neither is the wind up to a roll under heavy g's modelled either...for example an unboosted lightning had a fair roll rate, but it was slow and mushy to begin with due to engine weight...once you got it going it was pretty good...this isn't modelled at all imho.

So back to energy fighting...look at airwarfare.com and search for some energy tactics and video clips...particularly the one called energygame and you will be able to better utilize high speed manuevering. I suspect if Oleg chose to more strictly model control heaviness, there might be a mutiny on this forum so I don't expect that to change much in this sim.

WUAF_Badsight
12-29-2004, 03:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
so? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
i dont understand ?

i just let you in on some info about online DFing

because . . . . . in your first post you asked what you had missed

FatBoyHK
12-29-2004, 11:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by geetarman:
I know the problem you're facing. My advice to you would be to avoid getting near any e/a unless you have a significant advantage in speed and altitude.

I know it sounds pat, but it's the truth. Your odds of success drop considerably if you are near e/a with only a marginal advantage. You better hope you are either better than the opponent or you're luckier. Many Mustang pilots go down this way.

Try this - forget what you know about the P-51's high speed performance, particularly in turns. Get a healthy E advanatge and keep it. Forget about following a breaking e/a by turning hard. Fly past (unlikely you will get caught) and gain more altitude and either come back or look for another target.

Final thought - see how well you do when you switch from making it your primary mission to get kills, to getting home alive. The kills will come. The margin of safety you employ to survive the mission will pay dividends in your overall success as a Mustang pilot. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed this is exactly what I am doing. I keep myself high and fast, buzzing around the map, and pick up those sorry guys under me, those who has committed to much into a zoom, and those who TnB for too long. If someone catch my six I dive run for home. I seldom die flying this way, quite often I can keep my life for the whole night before I decide to go to bed.

But after one month (I started flying online last month, and I fly exclusively on WC, my current ride is Mustang), I started to think that I may be too conservative, as I spent too much time on defensive and escape, rather than doing offensive. So I tried to explore the "extra" advantage of a Mustang, namely the high speed handling... so far I can use it against 109, but it is still for the defensive purpose only.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by geetarman:
I got a chuckle once when I read a quote from Bud Anderson. He stated he never, repeat, never, turned with the German planes. We're not talking Zero's here! Even so, he felt it ruined the advantages his Mustang held over the 190's and 109's.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, where did you read this??? I have Bud's book too, but IIRC he said he had NO PROBLEM turning with any LW planes!!! But anyway I won't treat these autobiographies as a appriopate guide book. They are just their personal preception.

Fehler
12-30-2004, 12:08 AM
FatboyHK, I dont think you are being too conservative. You are merely setting a parameter in which to learn. And I like your approach.

Some nights I decide to get on WC and be overly aggressive... dogfight with anything at any altitude. (These are usually short nights http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) Other times I get on and make it my mission to help others. (Oddly enough, these are the nights I get shot down more than others http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). Then some nights I get on and play like I only have one life to live. (These are the nights that I usually dont rack up too many kills, but can play all night on one quarter - so to speak.

I get the feeling that you want to experiment, but are unsure of what you want to accomplish. The great thing about this game is that you can be something you are not. A WWII fighter pilot! And if you die, you can be re-born in the click of a mouse button. So dont be afraid to experiment.

There will always be those better than yourself. Better at energy management, or gunnery, or tactics. But until you test yourself, you will never know how well you can be.

So my advice to you in your P-51 is stay fast, stay high, and shoot well. -OR- Go low, turn hard and mix it up.

You can die either way, but you will have fun both ways... and in the end we learn more from making mistakes than walking the same footsteps over and over again.

See you in WC.. hopefully in my gunsight and not on my 6! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FatBoyHK
12-30-2004, 01:20 AM
yes I am experimenting something. Given the high speed maneouvrability my plane has, I want to use it in a wise way, so I can fight in those situtaions that in the past I can only disengage. However, so far I don't have any significant success with my experiment, and I found that I can get more success if I fly in my ordinary way. However, I won't jump into the conclusion that my experiment is fundamentally wrong....Instead I think I just did the experiment wrongly.

That is why I posted here and seek for advice.