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XyZspineZyX
07-03-2003, 04:14 PM
The Fixed Rudder Tab on High Performance Prop Fighters

There is a minor Flight Modeling (FM) detail which is incorrect on IL-2. However, this detail causes problems with greater consequences. The problem occurs on all aircraft without rudder trim. The detail is that aircraft without trim "center" the ball only at 0% power; this is a problem. It causes aircraft controllability and gunnery accuracy issues, diminishing combat effectiveness on these aircraft. Please fix this problem. But, very importantly - it must be fixed correctly . as an incorrect fix is a distinct possibility, even likely given that rudder tabs on jets are "indexed" for speed, not power.

------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: I will intentionally simplify these explanations for two reasons. The nature of the required fix is important (more than esoteric argument). And the FM response to these factors (while extremely realistic) is not exactly like an actual aircraft's behavior.
------------------------------------------------------------


The rudder controls yaw - rotation about the aircraft's vertical axis, ie. nose right or nose left. On high performance propeller driven fighters, yaw is affected by three factors aircraft pitch, airspeed, and POWER. POWER, or Torque, is the largest of these factors on WWII fighters.
Prop blades descending toward the wing produce greater thrust; this offsets the prop's main (helical) thrust to that side of the centerline axis. We call this Torque, or T factor. Mounting the most powerful aviation recip powerplants in history, T factor is profound on these aircraft.
T factor is controlled with rudder. Rudder Control is enabled by either of two methods, contingent on airframe design:
1) A Rudder Trim Tab, or,
2) A Fixed Rudder Tab. These work exactly the same to achieve balanced flight. Balanced flight occurs when the BALL is CENTERED.

PROBLEM - Here's the problem on IL-2:
The fixed rudder tab is incorrectly set to achieve balanced flight (center the ball) at 0% power. This is the most dangerous of all sins flying prop fighters.
FOR OUR GAME: It should (center the ball) at 95% power, and "drift" away (from center) slightly at lower POWER. It works that way on my Yak. On preflight, in my IL-2 Game Yak, I input left rudder trim to achieve this (centered ball at 95% power +/-) - than LEAVE IT ALONE. This TRIM works perfectly.
On aircraft without rudder trim, the airframe design enhances the rudder tab's control of T factor. In flight, the fixed TAB will work perfectly well in controlling T factor, too. Minor pilot inputs are required only at very low power, and the aircraft will maintain heading in flight.

TWO CONSEQUENCES of the fixed tab "adjusted" to zero percent power:
1) Aircraft Control is compromised.
On WWII fighters, if the ball is not centered - the aircraft will stall, spin, snap roll, progressive spin, torque roll, secondary spin, flat spin, inverted flat spin and enter secondary spins, occasionally accompanied by violent post-stall gyrations. Recovery will often be impossible. Of course, Murphy being an aviation buff (with a penchant for high-performance*), this will happen WHEN LEAST DESIRED - at high ALPHA (AOA) and high POWER. Simply put, during all combat maneuvering, particularly low airspeed combat maneuvering at HIGH POWER. (Fact: Particularly dangerous at low speed and high power, Torque induced adverse yaw killed more prop pilots in WWII then did enemy action.)

2) Gunnery is Inaccurate, at any range except point-blank
The second "danger" if the fixed tab is incorrectly adjusted is not so readily apparent. Accurate gunnery accuracy is impossible - except at very close range. For accurate gunnery, CENTER THE BALL. Or, the gunnery will go left or right of the target . wildly inaccurate. In a close combat between equally skilled opponents - excluding tactical error, THE DECIDING FACTOR is ALWAYS a "split second" snap shot which initially damages one opponent. If the pilots are equals, this is often a high-deflection shot at distance.
The geometry is complex, but the logic is simple: Gunnery performed at low power is usually very close range gunnery, where yaw is not the critical factor.
In fighters, inaccurate gunnery is a prescription for failure.


RECCOMENDATION:
On IL-2 aircraft with fixed rudder tabs, keep the ball centered at 95% power. It should drift slightly right at lower power, almost imperceptibly left at WEP, on (German/US powerplants) aircraft with clockwise rotating engines. If the engine rotates counter-clockwise (UK/Russian powerplants) the ball should drift slightly right at lower power settings, "a hair" right at WEP. (Unfortunately: Deselecting Torque effects will not correct the problem in the game.)

WARNING
Do NOT adjust the fixed rudder tab to an airspeed. While this is the correct procedure for JET aircraft; it is INCORRECT procedure on prop aircraft. On prop fighters, POWER, or T factor is greater than the sum of all other factors. (The thrust must exceed the relative wind over the rudder - or you're at: absolute ceiling, or at maximum level speed.) If the tab were "adjusted", indexed, to an airspeed - the aircraft would be "protected" from wild adverse yaw-induced departures and achieve accurate gunnery ONLY AT THAT AIRSPEED - at median power, this condition adversely affected by power increase or decrease. Not good.


MY APOLOGY
I've only recently discovered this problem. I am Hades-for-overqualified at this subject (in these aircraft too), but . I'm certainly not Albert Einstein, and that's OK too; he didn't fly. It's an extremely subtle problem involving complex aerodynamic concepts and effects. "Chalk it up" to computer sophistication - achieving very near reality. In real life, these problems are no more apparent. The consequences are more profound. Believe me, I know.

Please correct this FM detail on IL-2 and FB. Thank you for your time and consideration.


PS. Now, for the sake of all that's Holy, somebody go rescue Oleg from Russia's 3rd century medical system.



* You should all be aware that my auto-edit changed this to "high-perf romance". Stay alert. Check six. Always.


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Salute, Sir !!! Uncle_Ivan

XyZspineZyX
07-03-2003, 04:14 PM
The Fixed Rudder Tab on High Performance Prop Fighters

There is a minor Flight Modeling (FM) detail which is incorrect on IL-2. However, this detail causes problems with greater consequences. The problem occurs on all aircraft without rudder trim. The detail is that aircraft without trim "center" the ball only at 0% power; this is a problem. It causes aircraft controllability and gunnery accuracy issues, diminishing combat effectiveness on these aircraft. Please fix this problem. But, very importantly - it must be fixed correctly . as an incorrect fix is a distinct possibility, even likely given that rudder tabs on jets are "indexed" for speed, not power.

------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: I will intentionally simplify these explanations for two reasons. The nature of the required fix is important (more than esoteric argument). And the FM response to these factors (while extremely realistic) is not exactly like an actual aircraft's behavior.
------------------------------------------------------------


The rudder controls yaw - rotation about the aircraft's vertical axis, ie. nose right or nose left. On high performance propeller driven fighters, yaw is affected by three factors aircraft pitch, airspeed, and POWER. POWER, or Torque, is the largest of these factors on WWII fighters.
Prop blades descending toward the wing produce greater thrust; this offsets the prop's main (helical) thrust to that side of the centerline axis. We call this Torque, or T factor. Mounting the most powerful aviation recip powerplants in history, T factor is profound on these aircraft.
T factor is controlled with rudder. Rudder Control is enabled by either of two methods, contingent on airframe design:
1) A Rudder Trim Tab, or,
2) A Fixed Rudder Tab. These work exactly the same to achieve balanced flight. Balanced flight occurs when the BALL is CENTERED.

PROBLEM - Here's the problem on IL-2:
The fixed rudder tab is incorrectly set to achieve balanced flight (center the ball) at 0% power. This is the most dangerous of all sins flying prop fighters.
FOR OUR GAME: It should (center the ball) at 95% power, and "drift" away (from center) slightly at lower POWER. It works that way on my Yak. On preflight, in my IL-2 Game Yak, I input left rudder trim to achieve this (centered ball at 95% power +/-) - than LEAVE IT ALONE. This TRIM works perfectly.
On aircraft without rudder trim, the airframe design enhances the rudder tab's control of T factor. In flight, the fixed TAB will work perfectly well in controlling T factor, too. Minor pilot inputs are required only at very low power, and the aircraft will maintain heading in flight.

TWO CONSEQUENCES of the fixed tab "adjusted" to zero percent power:
1) Aircraft Control is compromised.
On WWII fighters, if the ball is not centered - the aircraft will stall, spin, snap roll, progressive spin, torque roll, secondary spin, flat spin, inverted flat spin and enter secondary spins, occasionally accompanied by violent post-stall gyrations. Recovery will often be impossible. Of course, Murphy being an aviation buff (with a penchant for high-performance*), this will happen WHEN LEAST DESIRED - at high ALPHA (AOA) and high POWER. Simply put, during all combat maneuvering, particularly low airspeed combat maneuvering at HIGH POWER. (Fact: Particularly dangerous at low speed and high power, Torque induced adverse yaw killed more prop pilots in WWII then did enemy action.)

2) Gunnery is Inaccurate, at any range except point-blank
The second "danger" if the fixed tab is incorrectly adjusted is not so readily apparent. Accurate gunnery accuracy is impossible - except at very close range. For accurate gunnery, CENTER THE BALL. Or, the gunnery will go left or right of the target . wildly inaccurate. In a close combat between equally skilled opponents - excluding tactical error, THE DECIDING FACTOR is ALWAYS a "split second" snap shot which initially damages one opponent. If the pilots are equals, this is often a high-deflection shot at distance.
The geometry is complex, but the logic is simple: Gunnery performed at low power is usually very close range gunnery, where yaw is not the critical factor.
In fighters, inaccurate gunnery is a prescription for failure.


RECCOMENDATION:
On IL-2 aircraft with fixed rudder tabs, keep the ball centered at 95% power. It should drift slightly right at lower power, almost imperceptibly left at WEP, on (German/US powerplants) aircraft with clockwise rotating engines. If the engine rotates counter-clockwise (UK/Russian powerplants) the ball should drift slightly right at lower power settings, "a hair" right at WEP. (Unfortunately: Deselecting Torque effects will not correct the problem in the game.)

WARNING
Do NOT adjust the fixed rudder tab to an airspeed. While this is the correct procedure for JET aircraft; it is INCORRECT procedure on prop aircraft. On prop fighters, POWER, or T factor is greater than the sum of all other factors. (The thrust must exceed the relative wind over the rudder - or you're at: absolute ceiling, or at maximum level speed.) If the tab were "adjusted", indexed, to an airspeed - the aircraft would be "protected" from wild adverse yaw-induced departures and achieve accurate gunnery ONLY AT THAT AIRSPEED - at median power, this condition adversely affected by power increase or decrease. Not good.


MY APOLOGY
I've only recently discovered this problem. I am Hades-for-overqualified at this subject (in these aircraft too), but . I'm certainly not Albert Einstein, and that's OK too; he didn't fly. It's an extremely subtle problem involving complex aerodynamic concepts and effects. "Chalk it up" to computer sophistication - achieving very near reality. In real life, these problems are no more apparent. The consequences are more profound. Believe me, I know.

Please correct this FM detail on IL-2 and FB. Thank you for your time and consideration.


PS. Now, for the sake of all that's Holy, somebody go rescue Oleg from Russia's 3rd century medical system.



* You should all be aware that my auto-edit changed this to "high-perf romance". Stay alert. Check six. Always.


http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0WAAAAKsZBWdBhGy2CyCD9Nu72fWbqLHCnxd8CeTow5Anb75sn vP2W0!DnkvLSoh9W4DoYulCJgMjj1thQ8tWWr*XUOZA6S0G5E9 e3094YPY9bECLizscHb1R1zJGKhttAAAAAAAAAAA/Siggy-Block-400x2000.jpg?dc=4675418318811629849
Salute, Sir !!! Uncle_Ivan

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 12:52 PM
This is true for IL2, but it is my experience that it has been fixed for most planes in FB. All of the FW190s I fly have the ball centered at 100% throttle. When I go to 0% throttle for landing I need to apply a lot of rudder to center the ball.

Some 109s seem to be centered at 100% throttle, but some aren't. My main problem with 109s is that the yaw feels very squirrelly. In 190s I can enter, maintain, and exit a turn while keeping the ball centered (or close enough), whereas with a 109 I find that entering and exiting turns results in yaw instability, but I hardly ever fly them so it is probably just me and my yaw input settings.

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 01:15 PM
In FB trim is fixed to 75% Thrust IIRC for 190s and 109s except K-4 (which has a controllable trim which is wrong! - it's just a flettner tab IRL). In Il-2 it WAS fixed to 100% in some versions (IIRC 1.01, 1.02 and 1.03), then it was fixed to 0%.


Lambdog wrote:
- The rudder controls yaw - rotation about the
- aircraft's vertical axis, ie. nose right or nose
- left. On high performance propeller driven
- fighters, yaw is affected by three factors aircraft
- pitch, airspeed, and POWER. POWER, or Torque, is
- the largest of these factors on WWII fighters.
- Prop blades descending toward the wing produce
- greater thrust; this offsets the prop's main
- (helical) thrust to that side of the centerline
- axis. We call this Torque, or T factor. Mounting
- the most powerful aviation recip powerplants in
- history, T factor is profound on these aircraft.
- T factor is controlled with rudder.

Isn't it Propwash effect instead of torque? AFAIK torque just is the force that banks the aircraft (ie. the 109s bank to the left as you give power) while the propwash (which is described by you above with the descending prop blade etc) affects yaw.

- RECCOMENDATION:
- On IL-2 aircraft with fixed rudder tabs, keep the
- ball centered at 95% power. It should drift slightly
- right at lower power, almost imperceptibly left at
- WEP, on (German/US powerplants) aircraft with
- clockwise rotating engines. If the engine rotates
- counter-clockwise (UK/Russian powerplants) the ball
- should drift slightly right at lower power settings,
- "a hair" right at WEP. (Unfortunately: Deselecting
- Torque effects will not correct the problem in the
- game.)

Hmm again that torque thingy /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif . That may be why you can'T switch it off /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif . In fact, switching torque off eliminates the bank-by-power and the effect that you can roll your plane with the rudder. It drives like a ship with torque off.


<hr>

<p align=center style="width:100%; filter:glow[color=#33CCFF, strength=2)">

<img src=http://mitglied.lycos.de/eldur190d9/bilder/willey110.jpg border=0 alt="Hier geht's zur I/JG78"> (http://www.jg78.de)

</p><font color=59626B>

XyZspineZyX
07-13-2003, 08:58 PM
Isn't it Propwash effect instead of torque? AFAIK
- torque just is the force that banks the aircraft
- (ie. the 109s bank to the left as you give power)
- while the propwash (which is described by you above
- with the descending prop blade etc) affects yaw.

great demonstration of the effect-

take a bicycle wheel, and hold it in one hand by the axle. Spin it hard with the other. Now hold both ends of the axle and feel the wheel "pull" to one side or the other, depending on which way you spun it. No propwash on a bicycle wheel. Torque is not just engine 'power', it's also a gyroscopic effect. What it boils down to is not just a tendency to roll, but to also yaw the aircraft as well. Torque effect on the ground is countered by rudder input, not aileron input, don't forget.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 03:50 AM
OK. Those of us who've done this for real ... we just call it Torque. Primarily, it's a yaw opposite the prop blades descending toward the wing.

Problem on IL-2 for ALL aircraft without rudder trim - the ball "centers" at 0% power. Aircraft become uncontrollable in combat maneuvering, and gunnery at necessary ranges is rendered inaccurate. Correction: algorithm should "center the ball" at 100% power. (Exactly as it does on my Yak-3, when I set the required trim.)

Problem on FB for SOME/ALL aircraft without rudder trim - algorithm incorrectly simulates fixed rudder tab behavior, the ball may "center" at an airspeed or airspeed/power combination. Effects as above, and as described in many posts. Correction: algorithm should "center the ball" at 100% power. (Exactly as it does on my Yak-3, when I set the required trim.)

Do this, and OKL aircraft (and the I-16) will compete more accurately in combat. Both in gunnery and maneuvering, these aircraft will improve dramatically. They will fly and shoot much better. Hang on to your hats - it's going to be a really wild ride. But, a very realistic ride ... one well worth the superb flight dynamics of IL-2 and FB.


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Salute, Sir !!! Uncle_Ivan

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 04:54 PM
I understand 100% and I'm bumping this up, this is a good point.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 06:21 PM
FB is pretty tame compared with IL-2, that one had a real problem. I'm not finding the gunnery problems anywhere near as bad as IL-2. Are you sure there isn't some offset by design in the 109's, like an angled off or canted tail? You can cross check the ball indication with external views gun smoke trail drift and heading holding ability with wings level. If you do center the ball perfect, the smoke crosses to the left side in drift and heading drifts opposite also. So for some reason there is slight drift to the opposite at perfect ball centered indication, like you've gone too far.


You can lock the rudder to where cannon and mg smoke pass directly down the planes centerline with zero course drift, with tracers going true on full zoom, and the ball will be slightly right. That was completely impossible to do in IL-2, it was either severe drift one way or the other, impossible to get your guns straight. FB by default is pretty damn close, I'd rather they don't mess with it, my shooting is just fine, and I'm flying straight, finally.

190's seem centered on speed just fine too me, balls right there between the lines and gunning is good.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 06:51 PM
Example of a well-thought out and written thread-
S!

oh... and I think you're right (as regards Il2, don't have FB yet)

CG /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2003, 08:22 PM
I have no clue about the specific Yak 3 that you have, however I do know two Yak 9U-M Pilots who both need ample rudder when at power settings above or below ~75%

I fly American Warbirds and Warbird Trainers and those of course also require significant (right) rudder when at high power and low airspeed (as nearly all aircraft do), and significant rudder to oppose adverse yaw. None of these aircraft are feet on the floor aircraft . . . not even modern GA aircraft are. Never have I seen any aircraft designed with a fixed tab that was optimized for flight at such high power settings, normally, even in fighters, they are set for cruise power.

And whats this about the aircraft falling into all these aerobatics because of the rudder trim tab. . . and a torque roll?? do you know what a torque roll is?

There are certainly some issues with the sim, the trim, the insturmentation, and I agree that the inclinometer should not center in these aircraft at idle/deadstick. . . though I have not had this observation in the manner that you describe (maybe my pedals need calibration to show the error)

S!
TX-EcoDragon
Black 1
TX Squadron XO
http://www.txsquadron.com

Reserve Pilot Aircraft #2 of Gruppo 313
Pattuglia Acrobatica Virtuale
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XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 04:49 AM
A Warbird pilot! That's really cool. I know a few, worked with them, too. They're great guys. Bravo! Yeah, I've done a few torque rolls, too.

In IL-2 or FB, a centered ball at 100% power just works better - both for gunnery and maneuver. The current algorithm for fixed-tab "tilts" the combat-effectiveness factor against aircraft without rudder trim. This occurs in both sims, for differing reasons.


The historical performance specifications contrasting many fixed-vs-trim tab aircraft are very close. Given the actual results, considering the context ... I'd wager their combat effectivness was very close also.

I doubt that a combat aircraft would be rigged primarily for cruise flight. More likely, it would be rigged to perform as my IL-2 or FB Yak-3 performs ... because THAT WORKS. If nothing else, combat aircraft are results-oriented.


There are a great many differences between/amongst aircraft and sophisticated, even superb simulations. It's probably a difficult balance to approach, but I have faith in the critical attention to detail painstakingly programmed in these FM. (And in the utter simplicity of my suggested algorithm mod viz-a-viz actual aircraft operations.)

The rudder tab isssue is a bit more complex than it seems. The effects are subtle. But I am certain of this. If the fixed rudder tab on IL-2 or FB (on sim FM) is allowed to perform to it's "aerodynamic capability" ... as it would in a properly rigged service-issue combat aircraft, then any broad-scale inequities in this simulation are resolved.

These aircraft will perform as intended, and as historically capable. And that means ... greater performance accuracy delivered, or allowed. It's more at the intangible catalyst of immersion. Powerful stuff.


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Salute, Sir !!! Uncle_Ivan

XyZspineZyX
07-15-2003, 09:53 PM
I would love if the rudder aerodynamics in the sim were more accurate, and if they were the issue that you are worried about would be a bigger deal. In the sim, no amount of coordination will keep you from a spin when attempting a stall, lifting a stalled wing with rudder is impossible, and an untrimmed airframe doesn't seem to have any significantly increased drag, the only remaining issue is the gunnery accuracy. TO mitigate this last issue I for one have a rudder control (pedals) and given the limitations of the aerodynamics of the sim, and the fact that I can coordinate control inputs to maintain a centered inclinometer (just as you must in ALL real aircraft) and that failure to do so is of little consequence, I guess I simply don't really worry too much about this particular thing. I also will restate that no aircraft I have flown (with a fixed tab) was designed to fly feet on the floor at such high power settings. (for that matter non-supercharged aircraft cant even maintain that power setting at altitudes much higher than sea level on a summer day)

S!
TX-EcoDragon
Black 1
TX Squadron XO
http://www.txsquadron.com

Reserve Pilot Aircraft #2 of Gruppo 313
Pattuglia Acrobatica Virtuale
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XyZspineZyX
07-16-2003, 12:53 AM
If it is possible to simulate adverse yaw, normal turning would have a much more natural feel. But, the lack of yaw effect (prop wash yaw, that is) is a serious shortcoming. The sim does not even begin to come close to the rudder input requirements a real 1500 plus hp ac has. I think it would be great fun dealing with a realistic simulation. I can just picture the carnage along the sides of the runways.

Tom Bernie

XyZspineZyX
07-17-2003, 07:28 PM
There is enough carnage along the runways, at present.

My concern is that because the fixed/trim tabs operate differently, a polar bias exists.

This disparity reduces aircraft performance very little, but in practice the results are more profound. Historical accuracy - in the element of "chance" or opportunity - can be a factor in this rudder tab algorithm. At present, it is "skewed". In IL-2 online, its a "shut-out" primarily against the aircraft of one Army. Probably also, its effect is far worse than it seems in FB. Players can't "compete" with results that merit skills acquisition in their favorite aircraft.

This dichotomy promotes a ubiquitous adoption of exploits, etc, to counter the subtle psychological effects of degraded "chance".

I don't argue for a NASA quality simulation, although when we get that ... I'll certainly expect it here. I'd like to see IL-2 and FB have the opportuinty to thrive as the highly rewarding recreation it is intended. Historical accuracy in the element of chance would be essential to that goal.


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Salute, Sir !!! Uncle_Ivan

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 12:20 AM
Hi Lambdog,

If I understand your post correctly, you operate a Yak-3 - most probably a Yak-3UA? If this is correct, then this is an exciting discovery for me.

I'd like to find out more about the aircraft and where you tracked one down, as I've been casting about for a warbird that doesn't cost a gazillion $$ to operate.

Kind regards
David

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 05:45 AM
I concur that the fixed trim tabs of WWII (and modern) aircraft appear to be commonly set for a cruise setting. It also stands to reason from a common sense standpoint, as Most of the flight time of a WWII aircraft is done at cruise power, even a good percentage of combat would be done at cruise power. Full (or especially Emergency) power was used sparingly and only when needed (completely unlike your average simpilot), and it was not needed a lot (if it was that pilot's days were numbered, as he is in too many 'hot' situations). Why set trim tabs for situations they'll rarely be of use in?

I also will restate that no
- aircraft I have flown (with a fixed tab) was
- designed to fly feet on the floor at such high power
- settings. (for that matter non-supercharged aircraft
- cant even maintain that power setting at altitudes
- much higher than sea level on a summer day)

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 10:01 AM
Now that question about the yaw controls was raised up, I would like to ask if anyone has noticed how difficult it is to execute a hammerhead in FB ?

It seems like when you max out the rudder, it jerks your plane to the side, and then stops. Just like it would be prevented to oversteer or something. Feels strange to me..

This rudder-problem is especially interesting in side slip manouver. As the rudder is prevented to oversteer, the slip manouver 'stops' at certain point, after which you become an easy target, with your side open to enemy fire..

-Celorfie

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 10:38 AM
109 has got an aerofoil shaped fin/rudder which helps balance yaw loads at higher IAS. Try reading Dave Southwood's description of flying the 109G. He explains how power settings cause large Yaw changes.
Regards, SM

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 06:10 PM
Please, let's not confuse the issues. This is getting "off target".


Fact: Fixed rudder tab aircraft fought well in combat with aircraft using rudder trim tabs.

Problem: in IL-2 and FB, this does not occur. It cannot, if the fixed tab is set at cruise, or 0% power. Result: Frustrated players resort to exploits and worse; leaving new "experts" in charge who don't "sell" well.

Solution: The "fixed tab" in both IL-2 and FB should be "bent" to provide balanced flight at 100% power. Then, these sim aircraft will compete with trim tabs set at 100%.


Product: Restored, the game is good enough to provide its own quality, despite a minority using exploits. Most people prefer the realism, and value its potential for recreation - earned rewards.

----------------------------------------------------------
Perspective: My experience in Prop Fighters is in actual service aircraft. Since then, I've worked airshows alongside Warbirds I'd flown in service use. Time is highly corrosive to aircraft performance . especially to high-performance machines. This could be a "pitfall".

Front-line Combat (service) aircraft exceed published performance and limitations, Warbirds are retired service aircraft. They wouldn't last long in service use. Let's not use them to estimate how these aircraft performed in 1943. Warbirds don't work as well as they did in the 1970s and 1980s in service.

And our problem is one of a binary nature. Use a real rudder tab setting on a binary controlled aircraft, we get an unusually widespread dynamic stability problem. And that causes really serious problems, online.

Here's another perspective, perhaps more at this issue. My father flew our Sturmoviks in the Pacific, transitioning to the SB-2C from the SBD-5. Pilots called the Hell Diver simply: Beelzebub. It was rushed into production, a wartime exigency. Necessary on jeep carriers, a catapult launch would fold it's wings . this was then compounded by the ship running over the hapless crew. It occurred frequently enough to have the quality of a recurring nightmare.
Then, there was the new Quick Reaction parachute. Too quick, it ripped a wingman's gunner apart . they got half of him back. Dad showed me something else. Tucked away in his flight gear was a small Bible, hollowed out to conceal a derringer. Nobody really wanted to bailout that fast, and then be captured. As they'd say: "The man you've just been strafing is always anxious to meet you."

I'd bet you're right on rigging that tab . but these are not planes, apparently they'll behave worse if we don't evaluate all the factors carefully. Then, like that hollow Bible, we must study the results. Perhaps we've left the wrong element to mind the "online" store. My three sons don't play anymore. That's a 75% loss, and I know why. Its mostly asteroids and insults, or even organizations directing players to forfeit their integrity to win. I still play IL-2, but its difficult to find an honest, fair match. Not preferring this insult and injury, none of my veteran buddies continue to play online. They are good men who value a contest, but they deserve better. Do we not need their recommendation, tacit support and approval?

Sometimes - trying to do our best - we can give the game to the Devil; and the ship runs over us.

Fix the tab on both, and fix the trim on FB. Neither works correctly. The game's good enough to stand on its merits. Nobody really wants to bail out here, either. We want the chance for a fair contest. Are we left with no options when it doesn't work right?


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Salute, Sir !!! Uncle_Ivan

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2003, 06:31 PM
Suggestion: since the fixed-type trims were adjusteded on the ground by the service crew, make it as such that the player can adjust it like normal trim tabs - but only under circumstances when he`s on the ground, and at 0kph, Engine off etc.

A notification message of the status of the new setting would be most useful, to avoid unpleasant surprises after take-off.

That way everybody could customize it`s plane rudder/aileron trimming to the way he likes, and we don`t ruin accuracy by giving adjustable trimming to planes that didn`t have it in real life.

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'Only a dead Indianer is a good Indianer!'

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