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Access_granted
05-09-2004, 07:30 AM
The acoustic room in SH2 was very basic. You can only hear:
- merchant ship (tum tum tum)
- military ship (brrrrrrrrr)
- your diesel engine
- your electric engine
- torpedoes (? : i'm not sure anymore)
When you play to other subsim (like "sub command"), there is a lot of others thinks you can hear:
- bio (shrimps, fish, whales...)
- cavitation
- waves, when in shallow waters
- waves, when near the coast
- helicopters
- differents sounds according to the class of the ship
- ....
I think a rich acoustic environnement is a MUST for sub simulators, because the ears are the eyes of the sub ... (hmm).

Also, you shoud identify the sound yourself, and the program should keep your identification (even if it is wrong). (like in others subsims).
I gess to identifiy the nationality, the flags
of the ships should be large, and well seen in the periscope.
(How do they made at this time ?)

Access_granted
05-09-2004, 07:30 AM
The acoustic room in SH2 was very basic. You can only hear:
- merchant ship (tum tum tum)
- military ship (brrrrrrrrr)
- your diesel engine
- your electric engine
- torpedoes (? : i'm not sure anymore)
When you play to other subsim (like "sub command"), there is a lot of others thinks you can hear:
- bio (shrimps, fish, whales...)
- cavitation
- waves, when in shallow waters
- waves, when near the coast
- helicopters
- differents sounds according to the class of the ship
- ....
I think a rich acoustic environnement is a MUST for sub simulators, because the ears are the eyes of the sub ... (hmm).

Also, you shoud identify the sound yourself, and the program should keep your identification (even if it is wrong). (like in others subsims).
I gess to identifiy the nationality, the flags
of the ships should be large, and well seen in the periscope.
(How do they made at this time ?)

vonBimmell
05-09-2004, 09:25 AM
You are comparing the sonar of a modern day nukey boat with a WW2 era submarine. The sonar on a U-boat was very primative and basic. I doubt that a sonarman of the time could identify some of those sounds. I was a diesal boat submariner in real life, and the sonar we had was an improvement over a U-boats, but was still pretty basic compared to todays standards. Although I was not a sonarman by trade, I had to spend time listening to tapes while alongside, and sitting on the sets at sea in order to qualify and get my dolphins. It takes quite some time to become that proficient to be able to identify anomalies in the ocean, and to be able to identify the class of other ships and submarines. A Sonarman by trade on my boat with at least 5 years experience could tell you the specifics of ships, whereas with my limited experience, I could only tell whether it was a warship, a civilian ship, or a whale. I'm sure that a u-boat soundman was limited to this as well. They weren't in their job long enough to gain any ammount of experience. Post war Sonarmen spend all their time alonside listing to sound recordings to hone their skills.
As far as identifying the sound yourself in the sim, this is pretty unrealistic, because the captain of a U-boat very rarely if ever did this. He had even less experience then the soundman in identifying ships by sound. He relied on his soundman to give him the info.
As far as what you could hear in SHII, it was fairly close to reality, but the tone of what you heard (pitch and sound distance) really neads some work for SHIII. You should be able to pinpoint where a ship is based on sound. Fading and increasing intensity etc...

Redwine
05-12-2004, 09:05 AM
Completelly agree with Access_Granted.....

He is not requesting any fantastic thing........

We must not to be an experience operator or a sound propagation cientist to make diferenciation between the high speed prop sound of a war ship run fast and a low speed turn prop of a merchant.........

Or between a high speed proppeller turn sound of a war ship and the ultrahigh speed sound of a torp........

For to hear the diference between your diesel motor and your electrical motor, you do not need the sonar, they are inside the sub......

Cavitation is very noisilly due they are just implosions, they are strong and in some cases can destroy the propeler........ your own cavitation sure will be audible through the hull...... with no need of a sonar........

I do not know about bio sounds with those sonar systems, I do not know its sensivity, but is bio sound was on audible frecuency range and near may be posible they can by heared by those old sonars..... I read shrimps banks are very noisily.........

Will be great to have those sounds as backgrond sounds....... and very diferent sound for each type of fact.........

About waves, I think so they will be audible only as a constant background noise........ based on my experience as diver......

Access_granted is not requesting any crazy thing................

Will be great to have lot of diferent sounds in the sonar and through the hull, like as braking ships, flooding ships, underwater explosions, bio if they are so near, war ship, merchants, torps............. not with a nuke sim capability but with more variety..........

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thompet03
05-12-2004, 09:57 AM
what i personaly realy didnt liked on shII was that you almost didnt need to visit the acoustic room at all...

all acoustic contacts could be seen on the map... i would prefer to do this manuell from the acoustic room.... maybe it should be there as an option but it would be more realistic and greater fun to do this manuell..

Just my opinion..

how do you guys think about that??

Greetings!

Willey
05-12-2004, 10:53 AM
The map should be like in Aces here. But with real update times. The sonar man should turn the stuff at a certain rate, and when he's some contacts, they delay the 360? turn furthermore, because he has to give you the information on what he hears. These should be displayed in form of lines out of the U-Boat in the center, just like in Aces, but just the last information you got, no realtime update like it was in Aces. Warships red, merchants grey or something like that. Now I should be able to select a certain pattern where he listens, for example 340? - 40?. Just draw a segment on the map. That will increase the actualisation rate, but decrease the search area. Some kind of concentrating on a certain part of your sourrounding. A right click on the map would return to 360? then. Furthermore I'd like him to filter those merchants and just listen to warships, also for having updates quicker. And at last I want to select a single contact (click the line) or multiple contacts (CTRL + click the lines) to concentrate on them. That would be useful when only 1 of 4 escort vessels is hunting you - then you've got almose real time update on his position. That would be a quite intuitive control with just the mouse on a tactical map, with realism in it. Listening yourself should not be the Full Real option, but it should be possible like manning the deck gun yourself.

finchOU
05-12-2004, 11:23 AM
I agree with willey on this one........Im thinking that trying to run the sub from the acoustic station alone would be wrong. Use udates(fed from the the acoustic station) on the map to get the big piture that the captain needs to manuever the boat. Of course there could be an option to turn this off as well.......what do you guys think???

thompet03
05-12-2004, 11:51 AM
I never thought about such an sollution.. nice one! Hope that something like this will be implemented.. ;-)

second is the "Nibelungengeraet" of trhe XXI... ;-)

Willey
05-12-2004, 01:07 PM
Yeah, you mean the rangefinder sonar thing, right? With that one you'll have range and bearing. Take it 3 times and you should be able to get speed and course of the target - maybe even the AI crewmates can do that (=the sound man). And then, they'll have a nice surprise up there http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. That's what I missed in SH2. It's totally absent there. Aces has this system, but it can't get speed and course data which will let the eels lauch just where the contact was the last time you pinged it.

HeibgesU999
05-12-2004, 01:19 PM
yep, sometimes its a fine line between what is "realistic", and what is able to be conveyed in the interface.

i think you have to have the updates on the map.

the Battlefront series Combat Mission (Beyond Overlord, Barbarossa to Berlin, and Afrika Korps) have an excellent unit spotting and indentification system. you first report might be "something moving in those trees", but it might take you many minutes, and more dedicated recon to identifying the type and actual size of unit. hopefully, SH3 will copy this system.

Combat Missions is kind of like SH3 in that is a "Command and Control Exercise", as much as anything.

Schnellboot
05-12-2004, 07:03 PM
One way to improve the authenticity of the sonar room, apart from the sense of ship movements (coming closer, heading away, turning): when your own boat's E-motors change speed, you should really hear the difference in the screws turning (volume and RPM).

Ja, it's the little things... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Willey
05-13-2004, 10:31 AM
Your own engine sound's volume and frequency should be one of the simplest practices of a good sound coder. Even Aces had different sounds for each speed setting, SH2 also had it, but it didn't work most of the time - this bug never got fixed. What's really important is that you can actually hear things through the hull, and allocate it's position with a Sourround system. SH2 and Aces both didn't have such a feature, and in SH2 the screw sounds even didn't appear sometimes (again bugged sound code http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif). I just hope the sound will be as awesome as the graphics are, because it's a main factor for immersive atmosphere.

SailorSteve
05-13-2004, 11:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by thompet03:
what i personaly realy didnt liked on shII was that you almost didnt need to visit the acoustic room at all...

all acoustic contacts could be seen on the map... i would prefer to do this manuell from the acoustic room.... maybe it should be there as an option but it would be more realistic and greater fun to do this manuell..

Just my opinion..

how do you guys think about that??

Greetings!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I feel just the opposite. The soundroom is nice, but how often does the captain on a U-boat listen there? I would almost rather have no soundroom at all; only map updates.

Before you flame me, I said ALMOST! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

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Redwine
05-13-2004, 08:32 PM
I soupose this is not a "Captain Simulator"...... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Instaead is a sub simulator.......

Sure you will not see the captain at dive planes or rudder control, or at command of the deck gun or the AAA guns....... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

______________________________
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http://personales.ciudad.com.ar/pietraroja/imagenes/firmas/EscudoU552b.jpg
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The Ancient History of the Submarine
"Subgenesis" (http://www.iespana.es/Subgenesis/subgenesis/sg00.htm)

Manual TDC
"HTDC Tutorial" (http://www.iespana.es/rotteufel/htdc_tutorial/a_start.htm)
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Teddy Bar
05-14-2004, 06:06 AM
What is needed is the dopler effect (think that is the correct term), where the sound grows in intensity as the target get closer and then drops away as the target gets further away.

OAD was so good at this that I could tell when an escort was comming in for a run.

Cheers,

Teddy B¤r

ParaB
05-14-2004, 06:18 AM
The doppler effect describes the change in frequency, not intensity, when a fast moving sound emitting source changes its position towards you.

radsov
05-14-2004, 06:59 AM
To expand on what ParaB said, if an object emitting sound is coming towards you the frequency of the sound is compressed(increases) and the sound will appear to be of a higher pitch. When moving away from you the sound waves are stretch a little (lower frequency) and the sound appears lower.

If you were shadowing the distance to a target the sound would be normal

CDragon
05-14-2004, 07:00 AM
I suppose the problem is how to convey the sonar data to the player in the most natural and intuitive way. In actual combat, did uboat commanders really plot (or have plotted) sonar contacts on a map? The Commander in "Das Boot" certainly never did. American sub commanders might have, but in the few books I've read there is no mention of it. It would seem that the uboat commander's sonar information was almost always conveyed to him by voice or gesture, and vice-versa: the commander could modify the soundman's work by commanding him to listen for something in particular, in a particular direction, for instance.

I like Willey's map idea. It has the same effect of a verbal interaction with the soundman, and is simple and elegant.

salty_fish
05-25-2004, 09:35 PM
SH2 bothered me in several ways most of which were the inconsistencies with the sound coding.

Another was the fact that you could listen with the hydrophone even when surfaced. Correct if I am wrong but this was inaccurate.

The hydrophone was raised when submerged almost like a scope and was covered with a protective fairing when stowed and surfaced.

This would be a nice feature in the game and I hope they model it correctly.

This is critical in respect to the fact that U-boat commanders submerged after long periods of surface running to clear baffles and search for distant contacts.

THIS IS CRITICAL for a good U-boat sim. It should be selectable in realism settings. You have the choice of analyzing acoustic data yourself, designating target class, and all aspects of TMA.

This is my opinion anyway

SailorSteve
05-25-2004, 09:55 PM
That's not quite right. The hydrophone system had sensors mounted in the bow, and the controllable part was on the bottom, not the top, which is why if you accidentally run aground you can break the thing.

The problem is that when surfaced the hull running through the water/air interface creates lots of noise, as well as the bubbles that make up the wake. The system works on the surface, you just can't hear anything for all the noise. It also doesn't work very well underwater unless you are travelling at slow speeds.

Aces Of the Deep modelled this very well.

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John Hopkin
05-26-2004, 07:42 AM
If I remember correctly, U-boats had three different possible sonar detection systems: one on the foredeck, one in the hull at the bow, and one underneath the bow. How many boats had each of them, I don't know, but I *think* that the one underneath the bow was a late-war type, and not many boats had them.

But Steve is right - even that one would be fairly useless on the surface, particularly if you're moving.

Redwine
05-26-2004, 08:31 AM
Yes background noise must to make strong interference in pasive devices...... when yo run at cavitation speeds, and when you sail on surface ......

About the representation in the map......

SH1 represent contcas as lines, red for pings......

SH2 represent incomming sounds as sectors........

Angle of sector gives you a idea of proximity......

I thing so, in this fact is better Sh2, your sonar operator, can give you the bearong of incomming sound, and detect if it is a cargo or war ship.........

Plus he can said to you, it is so far....... contact is weak or dim......

Contact is normal, ship is a medium distance.......

Contact is strong....... ship is so near.......

And the auto crew at you service , represent this info in the map as sectors with diferent angles as we can see in SH2........

Representation in the map of this dat is not unreal, it is made by the first officer or another crew for info to the capitan.........

The only unreal, is this info must to be not at real time........

The crew at sonar must to take one or two minutes to scan a 360 degress with the pasive device.....

Sectors at map must to stay quiet and must to be updated every one ot two minutes......

If you need a ral time info, for a precise sonar attack on one contact, you must to go to the Sonar Station and take control of the station replacing the auto crew.......

Will be great to have more diferent sound at this station, diferent low fecuency sound for diferent cargoi ships, and diferent high frec sound for diferent war ships......

Plus to be affected by background noise, as wave sailing on surface. cavitation at high speeds........ depth charges make lot of bubbles and make lot of background noise after its explosion.......

Plus is great to have many other sounds as bio contacts explosions and torpedos.......

Dev Team has lot of great features to add if they want............

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http://personales.ciudad.com.ar/pietraroja/imagenes/firmas/EscudoU552b.jpg
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The Ancient History of the Submarine
"Subgenesis" (http://www.iespana.es/Subgenesis/subgenesis/sg00.htm)

Manual TDC
"HTDC Tutorial" (http://www.iespana.es/rotteufel/htdc_tutorial/a_start.htm)
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Willey
05-29-2004, 09:12 AM
In SH2, contacts are displayed as growing trapezoids. The contact is exactly in the center, but it's not updated in real-time, rather some 4 minutes or so (which is hell too long IMHO, one revolution should last maybe 30 seconds without contacts, and a tad longer for every contact found to give the data to the commander). These trapezoids grow bigger and bigger as older the contact info becomes. Instead of those I'd like AoD lines more, with a rough range estimation which can be displayed in the colorization, so the line is painted in stronger color where the contact is approximately. For example red for warships, getting weaker farther from the contact. It should not be precise, but one should be able to read whether it's 4000-7000m or 500-2000m or so.

Redwine
05-29-2004, 12:54 PM
Yes ...you are right, angle in those sectors is for contact age, not by proximity.......

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http://personales.ciudad.com.ar/pietraroja/imagenes/firmas/EscudoU552b.jpg
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The Ancient History of the Submarine
"Subgenesis" (http://www.iespana.es/Subgenesis/subgenesis/sg00.htm)

Manual TDC
"HTDC Tutorial" (http://www.iespana.es/rotteufel/htdc_tutorial/a_start.htm)
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