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View Full Version : Desmond and Lucy had sex! *spoilers*



protesthishero
06-02-2011, 08:05 AM
Remember Lucy's schedule in that e-mail in Brotherhood? There is one particular day where Desmond and Lucy are left to themselves while Shaun and Rebecca go out for supplies or whatever. In the platforming sequence in the beginning, there is a great deal of chemistry between the two and additionally (this is the best part), towards the end of the game where they drive to the colloseum, we see them exchange awkward glances. Why did they put that cinematic there? What purpose does that serve other than to reinforce my theory! Subject 16 says something about a "son"! And maybe when Juno refers to someone being "birthed from the loins" of one of the TWCB and the enemy, it was their yet-to-develop embryo she was talking about. Think about it! Their relationship is a perfect recreation of Maria (who works for the templars) and Altair's (an assassin). And that is exactly why Desmond is forced to stab lucy in the gut --Where the embryo is! Maybe Lucy was always on the Templar's side but harbored a great deal of pity for Desmond which eventually turned into feelings for him and became an assassin.

Or better yet, what if Lucy was pregnant with Subject 16's child? This will be more likely if Desmond turns out to be Subject 16 who suffered heavy memory loss due to a ...possible traumatic event? That could be why Lucy is so concerned about him all the time. And this second theory is exemplified by the "truth" video :
Desmond : Subject 16?
Subject 16 : Yes, Subject 17 (very fishy!)
and further
Subject 16 : She is not who you think she is (Juno). The sun...your son (She is gonna kill your son!)
Maybe Subject 16 (Desmond) learned about his impending memory loss and put all these clues in the animus for himself to find. Subject 16 from the future sounds preposterpus and the "consciousness inside the animus" theory sounds way too far-fetched.

The other thing that point to Desmond being subject 16 : The glyphs. How the hell are they there in Desmond's memories? And if Subject 16 was indeed a different person, wouldn't the templars have found out the location of the apple a long time ago based on the facts that he has relived all these memories before and Ezio is his ancestor as well. My mind continues to be blown.

AntiChrist7
06-02-2011, 08:36 AM
im not saying anything about the first nt.

1) how are the glyphs in desmond memories?
they aren't they are in the memory core lucy got from the abstergo animus, just before the escaped.

2) why did the templars didn't get the location from 16?

because he killed himself to stop them getting what they want. where do you think the blood came from.

if desmond is subject 16, why does lucy talks to desmond about him?

only thing i agree is the fishy part in the beginning of the conversation between desmond and 16

protesthishero
06-02-2011, 09:03 AM
Whether Desmond is Subject 16 or not, everything points to Lucy being pregnant with his child.

@Antichrist : I know all that, bro. See the thing is, when Subject 16 left all those glyphs in the memory core, doesn't that mean he's already been to the same places that Desmond has. And since they have the same ancestor (Ezio), there is no doubt in my mind that he has already seen the ending of Brotherhood. That is where things don't fit. Somebody must've been monitoring all his progress, otherwise it ruins the whole point of the animus and Abstergo's aims. And they obviously have recorded it, hence the memory core. So there are a few possible explanations for this.
1. Subject 16 voluntarily and willfully worked for the templars, so they allowed him to use the animus without anyone watching over him.
2. He somehow managed to view all these
memories without Abstergo's knowledge and made the glyphs.
3. Lucy somehow helps him with explanation 2.
All highly unlikely, because there is no need for Subject 16 to kill himself.
So my theory is Desmond as Subject 16 somehow viewed all these memories without the templar's knowledge, with Lucy's help and learning of his impending memory loss, placed all the glyphs. And since only he could view the memories later and nobody except Lucy recorded or monitored it, he is able to view and experience them as the current Desmond. The blood?...There has to be a good explanation for that to back all this up.

AMuppetMatt
06-02-2011, 09:52 AM
The theory that 16 is Desmond has been voiced many times already... by me. No-one else seemed to agree with me though. Whilst not too sure on the rest of your theory I'm greatful I'm not the only mad person on the internet XD

Again, the ending of The Truth where 16 laughs and says "Yes, Subject 17" is certainly to me an indication of a correction and not acknowledgment. Also, they're voiced by the same voice actor. Seems interesting to me as to why they chose to have two of the most pivotal rolls in the whole game to have the similar voices and same voice actor... budget a bit low Ubi?

Not sure on Lucy being an Abstergo agent, I still think she's an Assassin. But you never know with this game series, twists and turns and all that...

Turkiye96
06-02-2011, 10:01 AM
wow cool idea with subject 16 being desmond all along would be an awesome twist

tH3PatRi0Tx1776
06-02-2011, 12:53 PM
not to mention that they said that they will show more about Desmond in his past in AC:R so this theory might be or might not be proven in the next game!

Personally, I think Desmond is Subject 16. Everything points to it! Especially in AC 1 where you had those little flashes at night of the wall covered wall! How the hell would he have flashes of something he hasn't seen? Because he is the one that put them there!

donngold
06-02-2011, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by geomart:
not to mention that they said that they will show more about Desmond in his past in AC:R so this theory might be or might not be proven in the next game!

Personally, I think Desmond is Subject 16. Everything points to it! Especially in AC 1 where you had those little flashes at night of the wall covered wall! How the hell would he have flashes of something he hasn't seen? Because he is the one that put them there!
Those "flashes" were desmond rolling around on his bed and seeing the writings because of the bleeding effect, they were on the wall he wasnt imagining them or having a flashback.

twenty_glyphs
06-02-2011, 01:39 PM
Desmond and Subject 16 are voiced by different actors -- Nolan North for Desmond, Cam Clarke for Subject 16. Their voice actors have not changed from game to game.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1699759/fullcredits#cast

donngold
06-02-2011, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by twenty_glyphs:
Desmond and Subject 16 are voiced by different actors -- Nolan North for Desmond, Cam Clarke for Subject 16. Their voice actors have not changed from game to game.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1699759/fullcredits#cast
That was my next point, and subject 16 has a message or whatever it is when you complete all the glyphs. Obviously not desmond!

Assassin_M
06-02-2011, 02:57 PM
^ Dude your Display pic is HUGE !!!!
If Desmond is going to be anyone other than Desmond, It will be either Altair or Ezio or maybe both.I`vposted my theory elsewhere

SAVMATIC
06-02-2011, 03:22 PM
Damn, I know i've heard the explanation for the blood before but I forgot. Desmond and 16 are definitely one in the same. We will find out how exactly this happened in ACR. We know so little about Desmonds past, anything could of happened. For all we know, what Desmond currently thinks is his past could be completely false, and he really was an assassin before and suffered some kind of memory loss, whether accidental, or intentional by Abstergo...
But we will find out everything in the 'Dark Room' where Desmond has found himself deep in a sub-conscious/super-conscious state. Desmond will be his pure consciousness, completely disconnected from his physical body and ego-personality. In this state he has access to all of his memories. The problem is the bleeding effect has caused things to splinter so we are going to have to put them back together with sacred geometry in some way.

ThaWhistle
06-02-2011, 03:36 PM
I've still yet to see a SINGLE piece of speculation by any of us that held true of a story prediction.

twenty_glyphs
06-02-2011, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by ThaWhistle:
I've still yet to see a SINGLE piece of speculation by any of us that held true of a story prediction.

LOL. Touché. It's fun to speculate and almost impossible to refrain from trying, but it is pretty much impossible to predict where the story will actually go. About the only thing we can do is try to interpret the clues already left for us, like in The Truth files from AC2 and ACB. Things like Eagle Vision being a weak sixth sense, and that Altair, Ezio and Desmond are human-First Civilization hybrids.

ThaWhistle
06-02-2011, 04:35 PM
too right. but we'll always be dead wrong.

Gasketfuse
06-02-2011, 10:27 PM
So getting stabbed in the gut is how TWCB abortions work? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Desmond : Subject 16?
Subject 16 : Yes, Subject 17 (very fishy!)
I'm probably being stupid, but, how is this fishy?

phil.llllll
06-02-2011, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by Turkiye96:
wow cool idea with subject 16 being desmond all along would be an awesome twist

I'm trying to think here how this would be awesome.

If anything, it wouldn't make any sense at all and would only leave the story with another huge plothole to fill.


Originally posted by Gasketfuse:
I'm probably being stupid, but, how is this fishy?

It's not as far as I can tell. Though I'd like to hear an explanation as well...

an-assassin
06-03-2011, 02:28 AM
Maybe it will go "Mouth of Madness" stile and end with Desmond on a mad man hospital(not sure if that was correct english) and paint symbols on the wall.

probaly not. But it would be funny http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

AMuppetMatt
06-03-2011, 04:56 AM
Originally posted by Gasketfuse:
So getting stabbed in the gut is how TWCB abortions work? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Desmond : Subject 16?
Subject 16 : Yes, Subject 17 (very fishy!)
I'm probably being stupid, but, how is this fishy? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


If you listen to the video it sounds like a correction (at least to me) not an acknowledgement. I think he's following the same thought process as me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlynsNdO3XQ

12:40 of this gets you into the right place. See what I mean? Meh, maybe not.


Appologies about the voice actor thing, I'd heard on here from someone else that it was North that did both Desmond and 16... I've been misinformed, don't hurt me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif



EDIT:

Actually, can we do an analysis of this final talk between Desmond and 16 please. I know the likeliness of us actually figuring anything out is as remote as anything, but I still think we're missing something blindingly obvious:

So to start with the video of this is supposedly an ultra sound of a baby. I'm unsure of this, I saw a bridge when I looked at it, but that might just be me, any thoughts? OK, now to the actual interaction. (I'll just put what 16 says and after they're "introduced" to each other)



"No time. It is far later than you know. Too late to save them"
-So does this suggest that no matter what we do we can't help the others? That there isn't enough time or that it's already happened somehow. And how does 16 KNOW this, only TWCB have the ability of foresight. Unless that's part of the 6th and 16 managed to unlock it?

"She is not who you think she is. Everything you hope to become, everything you hold dear. It's already gone."
-Again, suggests that we're somehow in a future state and that the year isn't 2012. But I'm not sure how that's possible... is it? We know a POE can make people travel in time as revealed in AC1 from the Templar Emails (Philadelphia Project), but would the Assassins get hold of this? The only other alternative I can see is that it's a sort of Inception style memory within a memory, but that's a little... lame? Isn't it? I dunno, any other thoughts?

"Eden. She... in Eden. Find Eve. The key. Her DNA..."
-Fits in with what Juno says about the need to find Eve to help "save the world" or whatever... could there be more to this than the surface meaning? I can't think at the moment, again, anyone got ANY ideas?

"I cannot... The sun... Your son... Too weak... Must replenish energy..."
-As far as we're aware Desmond don't have no kid... so are we being led to believe that this IS the future? Certainly it appears Subject 16 at the very least knows about future events, but HOW that is achieved. As for replenishing energy, is he USING the sun for energy? (Rediculous I know). Or is he simply repeating what we already know with the solar flare?

"I am with you until the end. Find me in the darkness"
-So we can only assume that it's the "black room" or whatever they're calling it in Revelations that they're talking about. Unless other people see a deeper meaning to this?



Like I say, doubt we'll reveal much, but I'm curious to see if anyone has any new bright ideas after a bit of down time to absorb everything and think? I still think there's more to this than surface interaction...

superbalex
06-03-2011, 08:42 AM
"I cannot... The sun... Your sun... Too weak... Must replenish energy..."
-As far as we're aware Desmond don't have no kid... so are we being led to believe that this IS the future? Certainly it appears Subject 16 at the very least knows about future events, but HOW that is achieved. As for replenishing energy, is he USING the sun for energy? (Rediculous I know). Or is he simply repeating what we already know with the solar flare?

that.. shocked me.. what if 16 is in fact desmonds son? since 16 says "The sun... Your sun..." and then about replenishing energy.. sounds crazy.. but that phrase.. could be ment in that the sun is 16.. and the sun is desmonds son, I.E desmond is 16's father..

we all know already that they share ancestors.. atleast ezio.. (most likely altaïr aswell). so perhaps the templars used 16 first (which we all know they did).. the project failed when he "passed away" (which might not be the case) and they then needed someone with the same ancestor so they could hunt for the POE, so the guy they need with the same ancestor as 16.. would be someone closely related to him.. and that would be his father Desmond.


ofc this is all just speculation.. but i think it could be true.. anyone else got any ideas?

protesthishero
06-03-2011, 09:14 AM
I already knew that Desmond and 16 had different voice actors and that doesn't change my stance on the theory at all. Ezio was voiced by different voice actors for different levels of his age. *sarcasm* Oh wait! That means there must be three different versions of Ezio, right? The reason they chose a different voice actor for 16 is because they needed his voice to sound like a glitchy, distorted madman. It's simple really. Imagine if they had the same voice actor for 16, even the in-game Desmond would've been like "Holy <expletive>, that's me!". Kinda obvious, right? Even AC1's story makes sense with this theory. I mean, he just wakes up in the middle of the room on the animus and all we know about Subject 16 is that he was the previous test subject.

@AMuppetMatt : To humour your/our theory I have an even better one : Subject 16 (Desmond) knows about these future events because he gained a great deal of knowledge before his memory loss. And this memory loss is caused by - beginning with over-exposure to the animus/bleeding effect and ending with a traumatic event that leads to a coma. This has happened to Desmond 17 times so far. Each time this happens, he is forced back into the animus where he finds shelter in the "black room" only to wake up with his memory still at the point where he was abducted and he is now labelled "Subject X number of comas". During his time as Subject 16, he somehow learns about his endless cycle (on his own...or Lucy feels sorry for him and tells him!). It is at this point where they begin to have a secretive romantic relationship and eventually have sex. In a desperate attempt to warn himself before his eventual memory loss, he places the glyphs and makes the truth video in the animus, where before being done with it, he loses a lot of energy and goes to replenish himself in the black room. So not only is Desmond Subject 16, but he is all the other test subjects as well. Too far-fetched? Well how about this?
Before the platforming sequence in ACB,
Lucy : I'm so sorry I have to put you through this (again!!)
Desmond : Whaddaya mean? I'm having a great time
and it's because of you (poor <expletive> has no idea.)
At this point I can't remember correctly, but doesn't Lucy say something like "Oh Desmond, if you only knew" or something. Someone correct me, please.
And at the end of the Da Vinci DLC:
William M (with regards to Desmond's coma) : Don't worry, he'll come out of it. He always has. <---16 times so far.

Talennar
06-03-2011, 09:15 AM
or "...The sun... Your sun..." refers to the sun you see in the sky and it's just a reference to the nearing catasrophe. as i recall minerva saying sth. about it in ASC II.

iN3krO
06-03-2011, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by AMuppetMatt:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gasketfuse:
So getting stabbed in the gut is how TWCB abortions work? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Desmond : Subject 16?
Subject 16 : Yes, Subject 17 (very fishy!)
I'm probably being stupid, but, how is this fishy? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


If you listen to the video it sounds like a correction (at least to me) not an acknowledgement. I think he's following the same thought process as me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlynsNdO3XQ

12:40 of this gets you into the right place. See what I mean? Meh, maybe not.


Appologies about the voice actor thing, I'd heard on here from someone else that it was North that did both Desmond and 16... I've been misinformed, don't hurt me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif



EDIT:

Actually, can we do an analysis of this final talk between Desmond and 16 please. I know the likeliness of us actually figuring anything out is as remote as anything, but I still think we're missing something blindingly obvious:

So to start with the video of this is supposedly an ultra sound of a baby. I'm unsure of this, I saw a bridge when I looked at it, but that might just be me, any thoughts? OK, now to the actual interaction. (I'll just put what 16 says and after they're "introduced" to each other)



"No time. It is far later than you know. Too late to save them"
-So does this suggest that no matter what we do we can't help the others? That there isn't enough time or that it's already happened somehow. And how does 16 KNOW this, only TWCB have the ability of foresight. Unless that's part of the 6th and 16 managed to unlock it?

"She is not who you think she is. Everything you hope to become, everything you hold dear. It's already gone."
-Again, suggests that we're somehow in a future state and that the year isn't 2012. But I'm not sure how that's possible... is it? We know a POE can make people travel in time as revealed in AC1 from the Templar Emails (Philadelphia Project), but would the Assassins get hold of this? The only other alternative I can see is that it's a sort of Inception style memory within a memory, but that's a little... lame? Isn't it? I dunno, any other thoughts?

"Eden. She... in Eden. Find Eve. The key. Her DNA..."
-Fits in with what Juno says about the need to find Eve to help "save the world" or whatever... could there be more to this than the surface meaning? I can't think at the moment, again, anyone got ANY ideas?

"I cannot... The sun... Your sun... Too weak... Must replenish energy..."
-As far as we're aware Desmond don't have no kid... so are we being led to believe that this IS the future? Certainly it appears Subject 16 at the very least knows about future events, but HOW that is achieved. As for replenishing energy, is he USING the sun for energy? (Rediculous I know). Or is he simply repeating what we already know with the solar flare?

"I am with you until the end. Find me in the darkness"
-So we can only assume that it's the "black room" or whatever they're calling it in Revelations that they're talking about. Unless other people see a deeper meaning to this?



Like I say, doubt we'll reveal much, but I'm curious to see if anyone has any new bright ideas after a bit of down time to absorb everything and think? I still think there's more to this than surface interaction... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1 - "No time. It is far later than you know. Too late to save them"
It can be either Templars or TWCB

2 - "She is not who you think she is. Everything you hope to become, everything you hold dear. It's already gone."
I'm really sure this is talking about minerva/juno or lucy...

3 - "Eden. She... in Eden. Find Eve. The key. Her DNA..."
For me this phrase is the key... thought this phrase we can see that Lucy isn't Eve, plus in Ac2 truth we can see that any1 calls Eve (the one who is following them, maybe S16 = Desmond?), So, maybe the 2nd phrase is talking about lucy. she mights be working for templars to make desmond feel in love with her so he won't have a son with Eve.

4 - "I cannot... The sun... Your son... Too weak... Must replenish energy..."
Maybe, S16 is Desmond or W.M, and is on the future after 20.12.2012 and that's why he must replenish energy. The truth from AcB connected future animus with past animus (maybe thought eden's aple?) and S16 is advising Desmond so he can save the world, the animus needs energy and that's why he said it.
Now, maybe he needs animus energy to see desmond though his son (susposing that the future changed with desmond knowledge) so they can know how to help desmond further to find the truth. Or, like in Dragon Ball Z, there are many dimensions and everytime someone travels to the past (or future), a new dimension is created.

5 - "I am with you until the end. Find me in the darkness"
The dark is the miss of light/color, maybe if S16 travels to the past and joins past-animus black room, he will save energy and will be able to help desmond finding better the way to go out of coma.

Hope you can understand my point.

PS - It's: The sun, your SON... (played the game with subtitles)...

In the teaser we see altair fighting same guards ezio does so maybe S16 is using the same method Altair used in the past to travel in the time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

AMuppetMatt
06-03-2011, 12:06 PM
@ protesthishero:

The only problem with Desmond being all the other subjects (well, there are two really) is the time scale we're looking at and also the fact that 15 was pregnant. Whilst admittedly Lucy could have been lying about 15 completely to throw Desmond off the trail, we learn from the Abstergo Industries website that 15 was killed in 2010... which means that subject 1, 2 etc could have been received as early as 2000 if the time differences are reasonable, so Desmond would only have been 11 when first captured. That's if the Animus Project has been going on for only the 21st century, somehow I imagine it's taken a very long time to get to 17... it may have been going on for a very long time.

Also, regarding you saying that Ezio's had 3 different voice actors... nope. Just the one, a REALLY good one but only one all the same.

It will always be OUR theory, I may have came up with it "first" but you've refined and explored it further than I and you did it independently. If anything it's yours http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



@ daniel_gervide/ everyone:

1. I think maybe we need to concede that this statement is too generalised and vague to draw any conclusion from it. "Them" could be Templars, Assassins, Lucy and co., Humanity, the Teletubbies... there isn't really any cohesive sort of thing we can latch onto here and say what 16 is definitely talking about here.

2. Minerva, Juno, Lucy or Rebecca. Unless it is 16s mysterious future seeing ability kicking in, this is about a character we've already seen. Coupled with the fact it appears that 99% of Revelations gameplay will be in the Black Room, we can safely assume it's one of these characters.
Rebecca? I don't want to dismiss anyone but if there was going to be any character it isn't then it'll be her. Not well developed or pivotal enough to be some sort of plot twist with her.
Minerva? Seemed trustworthy and all she really did was deliver a message.
Lucy? Seems the most likely, but whether it's because I'm loyal to her or whether it's true, I just don't think she's a Templar.
Juno? Seems the most likely but is almost TOO simple for it just to be referring to her.

3. The idea that Lucy is working for the Templars to have Desmond fall in love with her is silly. Sorry but it is. Desmond was captured around the 1st of September and this "son" needs to appear by December 21st. Last time I checked pregnancy lasted 9 months. So the Templars were a little bit late introducing the two weren't they? If Desmond's gonna have a kid they need to kill the mother, unless you plan for a super pregnancy to take place?
"Eden. She... in Eden. Find Eve. The key. Her DNA..."
This is perhaps the most important piece of information 16 gives us and yet probably the most we have the least information for. Other than telling is what we already know, in that Eve needs to be found, this all together really means nothing.

4. Multi-dimensions? Time travel? Again it seems highly contrived and convuluted, but I'm not going to critisize you on this. At the moment nothing whatsoever makes more sense in all of this than time travel. After all, how can 16 know the future, unless that is part of what Juno was talking about... this 6th sense. But again with this "son" talk, Desmond has no son (as far as we know, unless he did the nasty at like 14) and there's no time for one to appear; so how can he be talking about his son from anything other than a future perspective?

5. 16 will definitely feature prominently in the Black Room. Maybe at last we'll find out who he truly is...

JonnyQuickShot
06-03-2011, 02:19 PM
I wonder how many people looked at this thread because the word "sex" was in the title...

AMuppetMatt
06-03-2011, 02:21 PM
Your name as the last post in this thread with the word "sex" in it made me look... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

phil.llllll
06-03-2011, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by superbalex:
that.. shocked me.. what if 16 is in fact desmonds son?

How would that make any sense at all?

Besides, Sixteen was at abstergo before Desmond (he's not a child either), and I'm pretty sure Desmond would've recognized his voice if he had a son...


Originally posted by protesthishero:
The other thing that point to Desmond being subject 16 : The glyphs. How the hell are they there in Desmond's memories? And if Subject 16 was indeed a different person, wouldn't the templars have found out the location of the apple a long time ago based on the facts that he has relived all these memories before and Ezio is his ancestor as well. My mind continues to be blown.

They're not in Desmond's memories as there's no way that would've been possible. The glyphs appear as a result of sixteen's hacks into the animus itself.

You brought up a good point about 16 though.

As you say, if Ezio was 16's ancestor they most certainly would've known about the apple, the vault, and would never have needed Desmond to begin with. It would seem then that they're not related at all.
=========================

Going back to subject 16, instead of looking for evidence of how he can be Desmond, let's look at how he can't.

First, we know someone was at Abstergo before Desmond and he was labeled as subject 16. He sounds different from Desmond and appears to have left an awful lot of blood behind as well.

If Desmond is 16, he would have to have forgotten the fact, and apparently forgot that he almost killed himself in the process, all while those around him are apparently all going along with the ruse (both templar and assassins who I guess are working together at this then).

Speaking of manipulation, why did they label him 17 and why did he forget he was 16? Also, if Desmond is 16, surely they wouldn't need to access Altair's memories again if they already did the first time...

And when 16 and Desmond talk in ACB, he's talking to himself then?

I guess there's nothing stopping Ubi from making him 16 - I'm sure they could come up with some completely absurd explaination for the above - but would it make any sense? No.

Will_Lucky
06-03-2011, 06:25 PM
Problem with Subject 16 was he was subjugated to the Animus for many different ancestors over 10'000s of years.

The Bleeding Effect for him was very severe, I have no doubt he saw most of the important memories of his ancestors linage.

If I recall he obsessed with Italy towards the end, Abstergo may never have tried to access Ezios memories or not gotten very far with them. Desmond attempted to access sequence 9 in AC:B and was forced to go from the start instead. Due to the mental instability such a situation may have occurred on a larger section for Subject 16 meaning Abstergo didn't get far on the Ancestors that counted.

dxsxhxcx
06-03-2011, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by phil.llllll:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by superbalex:
that.. shocked me.. what if 16 is in fact desmonds son?

How would that make any sense at all?

Besides, Sixteen was at abstergo before Desmond (he's not a child either), and I'm pretty sure Desmond would've recognized his voice if he had a son...


Originally posted by protesthishero:
The other thing that point to Desmond being subject 16 : The glyphs. How the hell are they there in Desmond's memories? And if Subject 16 was indeed a different person, wouldn't the templars have found out the location of the apple a long time ago based on the facts that he has relived all these memories before and Ezio is his ancestor as well. My mind continues to be blown.

They're not in Desmond's memories as there's no way that would've been possible. The glyphs appear as a result of sixteen's hacks into the animus itself.

You brought up a good point about 16 though.

As you say, if Ezio was 16's ancestor they most certainly would've known about the apple, the vault, and would never have needed Desmond to begin with. It would seem then that they're not related at all.
=========================

Going back to subject 16, instead of looking for evidence of how he can be Desmond, let's look at how he can't.

First, we know someone was at Abstergo before Desmond and he was labeled as subject 16. He sounds different from Desmond and appears to have left an awful lot of blood behind as well.

If Desmond is 16, he would have to have forgotten the fact, and apparently forgot that he almost killed himself in the process, all while those around him are apparently all going along with the ruse (both templar and assassins who I guess are working together at this then).

Speaking of manipulation, why did they label him 17 and why did he forget he was 16? Also, if Desmond is 16, surely they wouldn't need to access Altair's memories again if they already did the first time...

And when 16 and Desmond talk in ACB, he's talking to himself then?

I guess there's nothing stopping Ubi from making him 16 - I'm sure they could come up with some completely absurd explaination for the above - but would it make any sense? No. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

what if the Desmond we know now is a clone of Subject 16 (created by Abstergo after he kill himself) who was the "real" Desmond, I started to think about this after the truth sequence in ACB when S16 laughed of Desmond when he (Desmond) asked if he (S16) was Subject 16 and the way he (S16) called Desmond Subject 17 after this...

when Lucy helped Desmond to escape from Abstergo she had blood on her clothes, and I don't remember her saying from where that blood was or seeing guards' bodies during our escape, maybe she destroyed all S16's blood samples to make impossible to Abstergo create another clone and that's why they're after them now...

iN3krO
06-03-2011, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by dxsxhxcx:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by phil.llllll:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by superbalex:
that.. shocked me.. what if 16 is in fact desmonds son?

How would that make any sense at all?

Besides, Sixteen was at abstergo before Desmond (he's not a child either), and I'm pretty sure Desmond would've recognized his voice if he had a son...


Originally posted by protesthishero:
The other thing that point to Desmond being subject 16 : The glyphs. How the hell are they there in Desmond's memories? And if Subject 16 was indeed a different person, wouldn't the templars have found out the location of the apple a long time ago based on the facts that he has relived all these memories before and Ezio is his ancestor as well. My mind continues to be blown.

They're not in Desmond's memories as there's no way that would've been possible. The glyphs appear as a result of sixteen's hacks into the animus itself.

You brought up a good point about 16 though.

As you say, if Ezio was 16's ancestor they most certainly would've known about the apple, the vault, and would never have needed Desmond to begin with. It would seem then that they're not related at all.
=========================

Going back to subject 16, instead of looking for evidence of how he can be Desmond, let's look at how he can't.

First, we know someone was at Abstergo before Desmond and he was labeled as subject 16. He sounds different from Desmond and appears to have left an awful lot of blood behind as well.

If Desmond is 16, he would have to have forgotten the fact, and apparently forgot that he almost killed himself in the process, all while those around him are apparently all going along with the ruse (both templar and assassins who I guess are working together at this then).

Speaking of manipulation, why did they label him 17 and why did he forget he was 16? Also, if Desmond is 16, surely they wouldn't need to access Altair's memories again if they already did the first time...

And when 16 and Desmond talk in ACB, he's talking to himself then?

I guess there's nothing stopping Ubi from making him 16 - I'm sure they could come up with some completely absurd explaination for the above - but would it make any sense? No. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

what if the Desmond we know now is a clone of Subject 16 (created by Abstergo after he kill himself) who was the "real" Desmond, I started to think about this after the truth sequence in ACB when S16 laughed of Desmond when he (Desmond) asked if he (S16) was Subject 16 and the way he (S16) called Desmond Subject 17 after this...

when Lucy helped Desmond to escape from Abstergo she had blood on her clothes, and I don't remember her saying from where that blood was or seeing guards' bodies during our escape, maybe she destroyed all S16's blood samples to make impossible to Abstergo create another clone and that's why they're after them now... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

S16 memories would be inside the DNA taken from his blood so Desmond would remember anything...

How is S16 alive and talked with desmond?

dxsxhxcx
06-03-2011, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by daniel_gervide:

S16 memories would be inside the DNA taken from his blood so Desmond would remember anything...

How is S16 alive and talked with desmond?

Abstergo could have removed some memories from him (this way he would cooperate with them and wouldn't kill himself again) or they're locked inside of Desmond subconscious and now he'll find these memories...

and S16 (what's left from him) is inside of the animus (memory core), maybe the hologram we talked to is something like an improved hologram (with a better AI) of the movie "I, Robot" where he would answer only the right questions... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif



ps: sorry for my english... it's not my native language xD

phil.llllll
06-03-2011, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by Will_Lucky:
If I recall he obsessed with Italy towards the end, Abstergo may never have tried to access Ezios memories or not gotten very far with them. Desmond attempted to access sequence 9 in AC:B and was forced to go from the start instead. Due to the mental instability such a situation may have occurred on a larger section for Subject 16 meaning Abstergo didn't get far on the Ancestors that counted.

Vidic became obsessed with Italy and apparently was after the vault as well. If Vidic knew who Ezio was, and they had Desmond, they certainly would've explored that further after they lost 16, no?


Originally posted by dxsxhxcx:
what if the Desmond we know now is a clone of Subject 16 (created by Abstergo after he kill himself) who was the "real" Desmond, I started to think about this after the truth sequence in ACB when S16 laughed of Desmond when he (Desmond) asked if he (S16) was Subject 16 and the way he (S16) called Desmond Subject 17 after this...

when Lucy helped Desmond to escape from Abstergo she had blood on her clothes, and I don't remember her saying from where that blood was or seeing guards' bodies during our escape, maybe she destroyed all S16's blood samples to make impossible to Abstergo create another clone and that's why they're after them now...

Wow... now that is quite a theory, with absolutely no basis in the story as of this point I might add.

twenty_glyphs
06-03-2011, 10:05 PM
Something fishy is going on with Abstergo and what they know from Subject 16, but this whole pretending Desmond and Subject 16 are different people is too convoluted and has no obvious motive. The more interesting question is what does Abstergo know about the Truth and about the impending solar catastrophe? How did they know about the Vault, and did they ever access any memories of it? Why did Subject 16 kill himself? Did he just plain want out because he went so crazy? Was it the only way to leave the clues with his blood to look for the glyphs in the Animus? Was it to prevent Abstergo from finding out some piece of crucial information in his genetic memories? In his final voice overs from the Truth files in AC2, he actually sounds rather coherent and resigned to his fate in the end.

How did Abstergo know that Altaïr saw the PoE map in 1191? And finally, how did they get access to memories of Rome, presumably from Desmond, when he never relived those memories at Abstergo? Just getting them from stored blood samples seems impossible because Lucy's email about Subject 16 from AC1 mentions that once the subjects are dead, their memories a lost to Abstergo forever.

samward
06-04-2011, 07:49 AM
OK so there are so many things wrong with the idea that Subject 17 is really 16 or even more wrong is the idea that 16 could be Desmond's son! If either of these things are true then I have wasted a ridiculous amount of money and time on these games.

So here are some really basic reasons why these things can not be true...reasons I am sure have already be pointed out and then re pointed out 100 times...

Thanks to the Abstergo portal,

http://abstergoindustries.com/portal/index.php

and the games, we know that 16 was several years before Desmond. We also know that he went crazy and spilled his blood all over the Abstergo lab to leave Desmond all those messages. Not to mention, what logical reason would Abstergo have to capture Desmond call him subject 16 and then change it to subject 17? The only way they could do this is if they erased Desmond's earlier memories of the lab. If this was the case he would not remember he was subject 16 so why would they have to change it to 17? It makes no sense on so many levels... Unless ubi do something ridiculous like say that Desmond was in a dream state the whole time and they were making him experience what they wanted him to.... and if they do that I think we all would just be ..."really?" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

As for the idea that 16 could be Desmond's son... i mean just take a brief moment to think about this... hahhahah... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif Desmond must have been one randy toddler!

I agree that we will probably never know/ be able to predict what ubi will do next. I also agree that it is fun to theorize, but I also think that logic should be applied...

AMuppetMatt
06-04-2011, 08:44 AM
I'll justify the reasons behind me thinking 16 and Desmond are the same, hopefully that'll shed light on why I think so strongly for me. Obviously once this has all been written down you can critisise my insanity http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlynsNdO3XQ
12:40 in. I will forever (well at least until we get answers in Revelations) say that 16 is correcting Desmond there when he laughs and says "YES, Subject 17".

We don't actually know when 16 was present within Abstergo. We know that 15 was killed in December 2010 according to Abstergo Industries Website
(http://abstergoindustries.com/portal/?cat=3
Pass: PFRDVJ5aLLg)
Unless someone's got a higher clearance level than level 1 on there that tells us otherwise, we can assume that 16 was entered into the Abstergo programme around Easter 2011.

We all know that 16 spent too much time in the animus and as such went crazy. My theory is that 16 IS Desmond, and whilst he was in the process of going crazy he realised what was going to happen and so locked part of his consciousness inside the animus as a failsafe. This then meant that went he did finally go crazy and completely loopy and painted those darling little paintings on the wall he still was alive within the animus. He then passed out and entered a similar coma state into what he's in now and was kept prisoner in Abstergo. He woke up and through a mixture of drugs from Abstergo, the fact he had leaked so much of his consciousness into the animus, the coma and the bleeding effecct, he had no previous recollection of events.

I know it's hardly water tight but I'm just hoping that it makes more sense now...

protesthishero
06-04-2011, 09:14 AM
@AMuppetMatt : Thank you. That's exactly what I've been trying to say the whole time. And if you take this theory into serious consideration, I'm absolutely certain that Lucy comes into the picture somewhere along the line.

And I'll tell you why the Subject 16 video is fishy. It's because when Desmond asks if the apparition is Subject 16, he replies with "Yes, Subject 17". So if you analyse it properly he is saying yes because he IS Subject 16, BUT he is in fact Subject 17 AS WELL. You see? Instead of merely saying "Yes" or "Yes, I'm Subject 16" he adds Subject 17 to the sentence. If he was referring to Desmond as a seperate person, wouldn't/shouldn't he have said "Yes, and you must be Subject 17". Think about it. I'm not saying this theory is correct. I'm just saying there is a high possibility that it might be. Don't be mad gaaaiz.

Assassin_M
06-04-2011, 09:21 AM
A simple Explanation to the "fishy" subject 16 quote "yes, yes subject 17" is that 16 left the warnings to the one who will succeed him not knowing who it is, thats why he calls him subject 17. simple as that

AMuppetMatt
06-04-2011, 10:25 AM
In response to that, I'd argue that 16 has been conscious throughout, as he has a conversation with Desmond. Surely this would suggest he'd call Subject 17 by name. I just think the tone he's using is far too ironic. Don't get me wrong, it's a long shot, it's probably not going to happen, but I keep watching the ending and I can keep hearing is him saying "Yes, Subject 17 (I am)" [How's that for Yoda speak eh? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ]

It would also explain the weird looks that Lucy gives Desmond whenever they talk about 16. "He's dead, we've just gotta move on" (paraphrased terribly I'm sure...) you get what I mean. I can see where you guys are coming from when you're dismissing it, but once you enter this mindset and play the game through again it's hard to not see another layer to the dialogue and what's said that suggests whenever Lucy talks about 16 she's talking about a Desmond that's simply blocked it out of his mind. Hence the Black Room, as the consciousness fixes itself we discover who 16 is. Fits together nicely doesn't it, especially if 16 is our tour guide (and we need SOME sort of narrative introduction to the Black Room, so you can be it'll be him)

Maybe it's too idyllic and too contrived, I dunno. Just saying...



EDIT: The one major hole I have with them being the same is at the beginning of AC2 where they're trying to find Ezio's memories with the data core. I can't remember if the animus says "finding nearest compatible ancestor" or if it's just finding Ezio... if it says the former then obviously they can't be the same as they don't share DNA

twenty_glyphs
06-04-2011, 10:40 AM
The way Subject 16 greets Desmond in the virtual reality room is curious, but you really can't base an entire theory on the interpretation of a cryptic answer when all of the other evidence basically contradicts it. My own initial interpretation of how Subject 16 says "Yes, Subject 17" was that 16 is relieved and in disbelief that Desmond has been able to follow all his clues and find him after all 16 himself had been through. My thought was even though 16 knew what was going to happen in the future, he's still rather surprised that it actually came true.

There is evidence that Subject 16 knows that Subject 17 is Desmond. When you're playing the puzzles in the Clusters you get parts where the Animus voice talks and sounds like it's Subject 16 himself. Here's some quotes:


I understand what I must do. Why I am here. No. Get it out. Kill me.

I shut it down. I can shut it down, but it does not go away. It is almost time, Desmond Miles. I know how to open the Path. Soon my true purpose will be revealed. Soon I will not be alone.

Talking about not being alone soon doesn't sound like 16 is part of Desmond's consciousness that split off when he went crazy as Subject 16. My own theory is that 16's consciousness could get incorporated into Desmond's own mind, like Consus was in Giovanni Borgia's mind and helping him out in Project Legacy. This could happen while Desmond is rebuilding his own mind while in the Black Room.

RzaRecta357
06-04-2011, 10:55 AM
Wow. People actually believe Desmond is 16 also? Give me a break. That's the craziest idea I've ever heard.

Also, you guys have to LISTEN to the way it's said.

I think when he says it's too late he's saying it in a Sarah Conner type way.

Like, yeah it's too late already everyone you loved is DEAD they're GONE already DEAD EVERYTHING.

That was Sarah Conner. Yet...In the movie....everyone lives on.

Figure deal me?

AMuppetMatt
06-04-2011, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by twenty_glyphs:
The way Subject 16 greets Desmond in the virtual reality room is curious, but you really can't base an entire theory on the interpretation of a cryptic answer when all of the other evidence basically contradicts it.

Oh I agree entirely http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Seriously, I do, but for some reason I can't let this go, it just feels right to me.

I've just looked over this really good video that has all of the times 16 speaks in AC2 during glyph videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfKEOTXsbmQ

There are 3 recurring themes here.

1. Wolves
2. The Moon
3. A Knife

He also mentions someone called "Jack" twice.

I could be reading too much into this (I almost certainly am) but 16s parting message here is strangely forshadowy...
"Lucy, I can't wait any longer. I'm ready to go. She sees me raise the knife..."
I dunno what that suggests, obviously surface meaning is her witnessing 16 going all caveman and writing on the walls, but is there a deeper thing to all of this? I dunno like I say I'm probably looking too deeply into this, but it sounds strangely like the end of Brotherhood to me.

Any idea what this is about Wolves and the Moon? Anyone got any amazing links to these things or is it literally the ramblings of a mad man. I'm not SAYING there are profound things to what 16 is saying, I'm just picking out the more... eccentric... things that he's saying and seeing if anyone can see links to current AC events or possible future events.

And trying to pick out stranger things that a mad man is saying is definitely a fun but difficult task http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif



"I think when he says it's too late he's saying it in a Sarah Conner type way.

Like, yeah it's too late already everyone you loved is DEAD they're GONE already DEAD EVERYTHING."

I'm not realistically suggesting time travel which is kinda what you're suggesting when yiu say "everyone's dead". You're saying it as if I believe he's talking from a future perspective. Definitely not.
Also, I think it's crazier to suggest 16s Desmond's son... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

sfin1994
06-04-2011, 11:12 AM
when he says she sees me reaching for the nife...he must mean the lucy saw him kill himself...

ShaneO7K
06-04-2011, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by AMuppetMatt:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by twenty_glyphs:
The way Subject 16 greets Desmond in the virtual reality room is curious, but you really can't base an entire theory on the interpretation of a cryptic answer when all of the other evidence basically contradicts it.

Oh I agree entirely http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Seriously, I do, but for some reason I can't let this go, it just feels right to me.

I've just looked over this really good video that has all of the times 16 speaks in AC2 during glyph videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfKEOTXsbmQ

There are 3 recurring themes here.

1. Wolves
2. The Moon
3. A Knife

He also mentions someone called "Jack" twice.

I could be reading too much into this (I almost certainly am) but 16s parting message here is strangely forshadowy...
"Lucy, I can't wait any longer. I'm ready to go. She sees me raise the knife..."
I dunno what that suggests, obviously surface meaning is her witnessing 16 going all caveman and writing on the walls, but is there a deeper thing to all of this? I dunno like I say I'm probably looking too deeply into this, but it sounds strangely like the end of Brotherhood to me.

Any idea what this is about Wolves and the Moon? Anyone got any amazing links to these things or is it literally the ramblings of a mad man. I'm not SAYING there are profound things to what 16 is saying, I'm just picking out the more... eccentric... things that he's saying and seeing if anyone can see links to current AC events or possible future events.

And trying to pick out stranger things that a mad man is saying is definitely a fun but difficult task http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif



"I think when he says it's too late he's saying it in a Sarah Conner type way.

Like, yeah it's too late already everyone you loved is DEAD they're GONE already DEAD EVERYTHING."

I'm not realistically suggesting time travel which is kinda what you're suggesting when yiu say "everyone's dead". You're saying it as if I believe he's talking from a future perspective. Definitely not.
Also, I think it's crazier to suggest 16s Desmond's son... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well lets just say William M. is in fact Desmonds father, most of what Subject 16 could actually be a warning to William M. Subject 16 may know that William will see this so is communicating through Desmond (Like when Minerva communicated through Ezio). The son part definetly makes more sense if it is refering to Desmond who COULD be Williams son.

Assassin_M
06-04-2011, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by dead_gunner187:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AMuppetMatt:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by twenty_glyphs:
The way Subject 16 greets Desmond in the virtual reality room is curious, but you really can't base an entire theory on the interpretation of a cryptic answer when all of the other evidence basically contradicts it.

Oh I agree entirely http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Seriously, I do, but for some reason I can't let this go, it just feels right to me.

I've just looked over this really good video that has all of the times 16 speaks in AC2 during glyph videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfKEOTXsbmQ

There are 3 recurring themes here.

1. Wolves
2. The Moon
3. A Knife

He also mentions someone called "Jack" twice.

I could be reading too much into this (I almost certainly am) but 16s parting message here is strangely forshadowy...
"Lucy, I can't wait any longer. I'm ready to go. She sees me raise the knife..."
I dunno what that suggests, obviously surface meaning is her witnessing 16 going all caveman and writing on the walls, but is there a deeper thing to all of this? I dunno like I say I'm probably looking too deeply into this, but it sounds strangely like the end of Brotherhood to me.

Any idea what this is about Wolves and the Moon? Anyone got any amazing links to these things or is it literally the ramblings of a mad man. I'm not SAYING there are profound things to what 16 is saying, I'm just picking out the more... eccentric... things that he's saying and seeing if anyone can see links to current AC events or possible future events.

And trying to pick out stranger things that a mad man is saying is definitely a fun but difficult task http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif



"I think when he says it's too late he's saying it in a Sarah Conner type way.

Like, yeah it's too late already everyone you loved is DEAD they're GONE already DEAD EVERYTHING."

I'm not realistically suggesting time travel which is kinda what you're suggesting when yiu say "everyone's dead". You're saying it as if I believe he's talking from a future perspective. Definitely not.
Also, I think it's crazier to suggest 16s Desmond's son... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well lets just say William M. is in fact Desmonds father, most of what Subject 16 could actually be a warning to William M. Subject 16 may know that William will see this so is communicating through Desmond (Like when Minerva communicated through Ezio). The son part definetly makes more sense if it is refering to Desmond who COULD be Williams son. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
But william isnt sub 17

ShaneO7K
06-04-2011, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Assassin_M:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dead_gunner187:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AMuppetMatt:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by twenty_glyphs:
The way Subject 16 greets Desmond in the virtual reality room is curious, but you really can't base an entire theory on the interpretation of a cryptic answer when all of the other evidence basically contradicts it.

Oh I agree entirely http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Seriously, I do, but for some reason I can't let this go, it just feels right to me.

I've just looked over this really good video that has all of the times 16 speaks in AC2 during glyph videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfKEOTXsbmQ

There are 3 recurring themes here.

1. Wolves
2. The Moon
3. A Knife

He also mentions someone called "Jack" twice.

I could be reading too much into this (I almost certainly am) but 16s parting message here is strangely forshadowy...
"Lucy, I can't wait any longer. I'm ready to go. She sees me raise the knife..."
I dunno what that suggests, obviously surface meaning is her witnessing 16 going all caveman and writing on the walls, but is there a deeper thing to all of this? I dunno like I say I'm probably looking too deeply into this, but it sounds strangely like the end of Brotherhood to me.

Any idea what this is about Wolves and the Moon? Anyone got any amazing links to these things or is it literally the ramblings of a mad man. I'm not SAYING there are profound things to what 16 is saying, I'm just picking out the more... eccentric... things that he's saying and seeing if anyone can see links to current AC events or possible future events.

And trying to pick out stranger things that a mad man is saying is definitely a fun but difficult task http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif



"I think when he says it's too late he's saying it in a Sarah Conner type way.

Like, yeah it's too late already everyone you loved is DEAD they're GONE already DEAD EVERYTHING."

I'm not realistically suggesting time travel which is kinda what you're suggesting when yiu say "everyone's dead". You're saying it as if I believe he's talking from a future perspective. Definitely not.
Also, I think it's crazier to suggest 16s Desmond's son... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well lets just say William M. is in fact Desmonds father, most of what Subject 16 could actually be a warning to William M. Subject 16 may know that William will see this so is communicating through Desmond (Like when Minerva communicated through Ezio). The son part definetly makes more sense if it is refering to Desmond who COULD be Williams son. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
But william isnt sub 17 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Didn't say he was, the guess I am saying is that Subject 16 could be trying to warn William through Desmond in the same Minerva warned Desmond and the group through Ezio.

Even Minerva talked to Ezio at the start "Welcome Prophet" and something else then goes on with the warning to Desmond. And Subject 16 says " Yes, Subject 17" and then goes on with the warning and so on.

It's definetly possible but it's something that might as well be thought about when people are already talking about time travel.

AMuppetMatt
06-04-2011, 11:58 AM
I dunno who IS talking about time travel because that's among the least likely stuff. I think I mentioned it but I didn't really think of it as being plausible, not only in game but let's be honest It'd be a pretty lame explanation too.

Like I say, possibly/ probably overanalysing everything, but it's interesting to see this other layer appearing when put into certain contexts

iN3krO
06-04-2011, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by dead_gunner187:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AMuppetMatt:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by twenty_glyphs:
The way Subject 16 greets Desmond in the virtual reality room is curious, but you really can't base an entire theory on the interpretation of a cryptic answer when all of the other evidence basically contradicts it.

Oh I agree entirely http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Seriously, I do, but for some reason I can't let this go, it just feels right to me.

I've just looked over this really good video that has all of the times 16 speaks in AC2 during glyph videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfKEOTXsbmQ

There are 3 recurring themes here.

1. Wolves
2. The Moon
3. A Knife

He also mentions someone called "Jack" twice.

I could be reading too much into this (I almost certainly am) but 16s parting message here is strangely forshadowy...
"Lucy, I can't wait any longer. I'm ready to go. She sees me raise the knife..."
I dunno what that suggests, obviously surface meaning is her witnessing 16 going all caveman and writing on the walls, but is there a deeper thing to all of this? I dunno like I say I'm probably looking too deeply into this, but it sounds strangely like the end of Brotherhood to me.

Any idea what this is about Wolves and the Moon? Anyone got any amazing links to these things or is it literally the ramblings of a mad man. I'm not SAYING there are profound things to what 16 is saying, I'm just picking out the more... eccentric... things that he's saying and seeing if anyone can see links to current AC events or possible future events.

And trying to pick out stranger things that a mad man is saying is definitely a fun but difficult task http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif



"I think when he says it's too late he's saying it in a Sarah Conner type way.

Like, yeah it's too late already everyone you loved is DEAD they're GONE already DEAD EVERYTHING."

I'm not realistically suggesting time travel which is kinda what you're suggesting when yiu say "everyone's dead". You're saying it as if I believe he's talking from a future perspective. Definitely not.
Also, I think it's crazier to suggest 16s Desmond's son... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well lets just say William M. is in fact Desmonds father, most of what Subject 16 could actually be a warning to William M. Subject 16 may know that William will see this so is communicating through Desmond (Like when Minerva communicated through Ezio). The son part definetly makes more sense if it is refering to Desmond who COULD be Williams son. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

interesting :O

samward
06-04-2011, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by AMuppetMatt:
I'll justify the reasons behind me thinking 16 and Desmond are the same, hopefully that'll shed light on why I think so strongly for me. Obviously once this has all been written down you can critisise my insanity http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlynsNdO3XQ
12:40 in. I will forever (well at least until we get answers in Revelations) say that 16 is correcting Desmond there when he laughs and says "YES, Subject 17".

We don't actually know when 16 was present within Abstergo. We know that 15 was killed in December 2010 according to Abstergo Industries Website
(http://abstergoindustries.com/portal/?cat=3
Pass: PFRDVJ5aLLg)
Unless someone's got a higher clearance level than level 1 on there that tells us otherwise, we can assume that 16 was entered into the Abstergo programme around Easter 2011.

We all know that 16 spent too much time in the animus and as such went crazy. My theory is that 16 IS Desmond, and whilst he was in the process of going crazy he realised what was going to happen and so locked part of his consciousness inside the animus as a failsafe. This then meant that went he did finally go crazy and completely loopy and painted those darling little paintings on the wall he still was alive within the animus. He then passed out and entered a similar coma state into what he's in now and was kept prisoner in Abstergo. He woke up and through a mixture of drugs from Abstergo, the fact he had leaked so much of his consciousness into the animus, the coma and the bleeding effecct, he had no previous recollection of events.

I know it's hardly water tight but I'm just hoping that it makes more sense now...

Ok so you are saying that you are sold on the fact that 16 and Desmond are the same person because of the way that 16 greets Desmond in the truth sequence? And this is confirmed in your mind that Desmond has locked away part of himself as a failsafe before he took up finger-painting with his own blood?

Whilst you make a rather good use of the imagination, there are some pretty concrete flaws with this. Firstly, if he was 16 where are all the scars? Unless he used that one area on his lip to drain all the blood he needed to repaint the Abstergo lab…I am sorry there would be scars… lots of them….

Another big problem is, if 16 is really Desmond and 16 is his fail safe, and all those drawings were to lead Desmond to his true self, then why, oh why, would he just say, “yes yes 17” why in the world would he not say, “ yes Desmond”, or “ yes I am Desmond?” I mean if the point is to put a fail safe into place to lead yourself back to who you really are, why would you go to all that trouble just to be so cryptic! I mean that is just stupid.

Also how would Desmond keep his old memories in tact while selectively forgetting the ones in Abstergo? I think if the animus started to make you crazy that would affect all of your memories and all of who you are not just a section…

Now who knows? Maybe you are right and Ubi are going to pull a LOST on us. But I sincerely hope not.

I think though, with the information given there are much more logical assumptions to be made. So going under the idea that 16 is not Desmond…for reasons I have already mentioned, what do we know about 16?

- We know he was at Abstergo before Desmond
- We know he did his own snooping around and experimentations in the animus (hence the truth videos)
- We know that he spilled his blood ALL OVER the Abstergo rooms Desmond is trapped in.
- We know that 16 is related to Desmond (through the first truth video/puzzles)

I think it is safe to assume from the info we do know then, that 16 knew that Desmond would be the next test subject. (Though he probably would not have known Desmond’s name from these early emails, simply for the fact that test subjects names are never used in emails) This info probably acquired during his night time hacking. If he did know that Desmond was related he would have known that the skills and abilities that Desmond would have acquired through the bleeding effect would be roughly the same as his own. (or even exactly the same, depending on the relation) This meant that Desmond would eventually acquire eagle vision, something 16 already posed. This would explain why he used his blood. As he would have known that the symbols would have remained long after they had been washed away.

Lets take a moment to imagine then…. 16 is a normal guy who is brought in, just like Desmond. He is put in the animus during the day and at night he is locked in his little room. He realizes soon enough that something is very wrong. He starts to see things differently, takes on skills he did not have before, and he starts to lose the ability to distinguish reality from his memories in the animus. So being a smart guy he figures how to get out of his room at night (maybe with Lucy’s help) and he starts to do his own snooping and his own experimenting with the animus. During these sessions he discovers some very disturbing information. He finds out about the origin of the POE’s and between the long hours Vidic keeps him in the Animus and his own time the bleeding effect grows worse to the point he discovers Abstergo’s plans to replace him. So instead of using his night time sessions to explore further memories he spends it leaving encrypted clues to the information he has already discovered for the next subject. As he spends the time in the Animus that is necessary to do this though 16 loses more and more grasp on his sanity.

So when Desmond has that controversial conversation with 16 in ACB, Desmond is not having a conversation at all, but listening to a recording left from 16. This would explain why 16 never answers or directly interacts with Desmond’s questions. The lack of subject 16’s sanity at this point, this being confirmed through his agitation and his incoherence in the conversation, easily explains how he greets Desmond. He is as coherent and clear in the rest of the convo as he is at the start. Desmond says, “ Subject 16?” And 16 replies, confirming and acknowledging Desmond by saying, “ Yes yes subject 17.” (yes I am subject 16 and you are subject 17)

I think that the fact that 16 refer to Desmond as subject 17 tells us a lot here. I think it confirms that the message is indeed in pre- recoded. If it was a live conversation he would have surly greeted him by Desmond’s name. I mean the only reason why Desmond refers to 16 as 16 is because he does not know his name. No one refers to Desmond as 17, except in emails. I mean even Vidic calls him, Mr. Miles. So if the conversation was live, 16 would have surly known Desmond’s name.

Also later in the conversation 16 says something along the lines of, “ I must replenish energy…” This very well could be referring to his bodily energy or mental energy. If he was bleeding him self slowly drawing a new symbol each time he finished encrypting a file, he would be weak indeed. Or it simply could be referring to the fact that he knew it was not long before he went completely nuts and he was speaking to him self, reminding him self he needed to reserve energy to finish encrypting the rest of the info he knew.

The last bit of the convo that I believe confirms that 16 is dead, or at least that the info Desmond is getting has been done before he arrived, is the last thing 16 says, “ I am with you to the end, find me in the darkness.” We know from the Game Informer article on ACR, that Desmond will spend the majority of the new game in the black room. (The fail-safe part of the animus that will keep Desmond’s mind from shutting down on him). So when 16 refers to the darkness, I think it is likely he referring to this uncensored part of the animus where he has hidden his encrypted files.

Now some might say this is proof that 16 is alive, and that he too is stuck in a coma and his communicating to Desmond from animus to animus…. but considering that 16 left encrypted files in the animus core, that was transferred into the animus 2.0 at the start of AC2 and was active in AC1, that led Desmond to the conversation with 16… it would have been impossible for 16 to set the right encrypted files for future events he had no clue would happen.

All of this to say that I think there is ample evidence that 16 is not Desmond and is more then likely is dead and only remains alive in the black space of the animus in the files he has left behind.

AMuppetMatt
06-04-2011, 12:58 PM
@Samward


"Whilst you make a rather good use of the imagination, there are some pretty concrete flaws with this. Firstly, if he was 16 where are all the scars? Unless he used that one area on his lip to drain all the blood he needed to repaint the Abstergo lab…I am sorry there would be scars… lots of them…."

We haven't seen his arms once. Could be his wrists?



"Another big problem is, if 16 is really Desmond and 16 is his fail safe, and all those drawings were to lead Desmond to his true self, then why, oh why, would he just say, “yes yes 17” why in the world would he not say, “ yes Desmond”, or “ yes I am Desmond?” I mean if the point is to put a fail safe into place to lead yourself back to who you really are, why would you go to all that trouble just to be so cryptic! I mean that is just stupid."

Maybe 16 suspects/ knows revealing this to Desmond will bring the memories and madness back making him completely useless? Better blissfully ignorant and functional than informed and useless to the cause.



"Also how would Desmond keep his old memories in tact while selectively forgetting the ones in Abstergo? I think if the animus started to make you crazy that would affect all of your memories and all of who you are not just a section… "

We know the Black Room will be used to repair Desmond's consciousness. What if it can do the reverse and break/disassemble your consciousness? A bit like a memory bank or vault. What if 16 (Desmond) managed to find the Black Room before he went completely do lally and remove some memories into the Black Room. It removed his most recent memories and experiences effectively making him sane again, but he wasn't able to make the "cut" with the "knife" accurately enough, and he removed too many memories. This would explain why he's forgotten everything at Abstergo.



I'm not flaming you or trolling, simply giving my responses to what you're said. Don't get me wrong, I know it's far fetched, I know it's left field, but It's stood up to your scrutiny so far (here's where you respond completely blowing me out of the water http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif )



"- We know he was at Abstergo before Desmond"

If Abstergo Industries is right then we can safely say that it was anywhere between Spring 2011 to Summer 2012. 15 was killed in December 2010, and you can imagine that there was quite a clear up after 16s shinanigans, so there's bound to be some time between 16 and Desmond being used.



The fact you've suggested that it's a recorded message has actually got both me and my theory. I've been under the impression that it's a live dialogue but actually it works both as a live conversation and a pre-recorded message. I honestly never considered it to be the latter.


Again, I'm doubting myself that 16 IS Desmond, but I'm still open to the idea. Please give more reasons why it can't be, I genuinly wanna get to the bottom of it. And I reitterate here, I'm not saying it's likely one little bit.

"All of this to say that I think there is ample evidence that 16 is not Desmond and is more then likely is dead and only remains alive in the black space of the animus in the files he has left behind."


I still think this is the most likely outcome. But it's fun to speculate and as of yet nothing has been said to have me completely change my opinion.

payrob07
06-04-2011, 01:22 PM
WHy does it matter if they have different voice actors? Desmond could have developed a multiple personality-like disorder.

This type of disorder is a very freaky thing to watch, people can have many different voices with this type of damaging effects.

AMuppetMatt
06-04-2011, 01:25 PM
Have you been watching South Park http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

In all honesty they don't sound too dissimilar to me. I know people unfamiliar with the game have commented that they've found it hard to distinguish between the two. However I'm not letting the voices sway my opinion much, If (and I really mean IF) they are the same then I'd imagine that Ubi would want different voices to have people off the scent so to speak.

samward
06-04-2011, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by AMuppetMatt:

...Again, I'm doubting myself that 16 IS Desmond, but I'm still open to the idea. Please give more reasons why it can't be, I genuinly wanna get to the bottom of it. And I reitterate here, I'm not saying it's likely one little bit.

"All of this to say that I think there is ample evidence that 16 is not Desmond and is more then likely is dead and only remains alive in the black space of the animus in the files he has left behind."

I still think this is the most likely outcome. But it's fun to speculate and as of yet nothing has been said to have me completely change my opinion.

AMuppetMatt: “'Im not flaming you or trolling, simply giving my responses to what you're said. Don't get me wrong, I know it's far fetched, I know it's left field, but It's stood up to your scrutiny so far (here's where you respond completely blowing me out of the water )”

I totally agree. Consider this convo just two people trying to hash out an idea to its full extent. As far as the last bit of your comment, I will do my best http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif hehe

Me: "Whilst you make a rather good use of the imagination, there are some pretty concrete flaws with this. Firstly, if he was 16 where are all the scars? Unless he used that one area on his lip to drain all the blood he needed to repaint the Abstergo lab…I am sorry there would be scars… lots of them…."

You: We haven't seen his arms once. Could be his wrists?

Response: Well thanks to Desmonds wardrobe change in ACB, we do indeed get to see his wrists.

http://nerdreactor.com/wp-cont...herhood-New-Look.jpg (http://nerdreactor.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Desmond-Assassins-Creed-Brotherhood-New-Look.jpg)

Me: "Another big problem is, if 16 is really Desmond and 16 is his fail safe, and all those drawings were to lead Desmond to his true self, then why, oh why, would he just say, “yes yes 17” why in the world would he not say, “ yes Desmond”, or “ yes I am Desmond?” I mean if the point is to put a fail safe into place to lead yourself back to who you really are, why would you go to all that trouble just to be so cryptic! I mean that is just stupid."

You: Maybe 16 suspects/ knows revealing this to Desmond will bring the memories and madness back making him completely useless? Better blissfully ignorant and functional than informed and useless to the cause.

Response: If he knows revealing him self to himself could cause him to have a break down again…then why leave clues about the future that will eventually lead him to this discovery anyway? Does not seem so bright :P

Me:” Also how would Desmond keep his old memories in tact while selectively forgetting the ones in Abstergo? I think if the animus started to make you crazy that would affect all of your memories and all of who you are not just a section… "

You: We know the Black Room will be used to repair Desmond's consciousness. What if it can do the reverse and break/disassemble your consciousness? A bit like a memory bank or vault. What if 16 (Desmond) managed to find the Black Room before he went completely do lally and remove some memories into the Black Room. It removed his most recent memories and experiences effectively making him sane again, but he wasn't able to make the "cut" with the "knife" accurately enough, and he removed too many memories. This would explain why he's forgotten everything at Abstergo.
Response: Well in response to your first sentence, I am pretty sure that the Game Informer article said that the black room would act like life support for Desmond, keeping him stable until the head Assassins were able to figure a way to get him safely out of the Animus. As for the rest of your response…umm what???? Hahahah Assuming that I understand what you are trying to say here…and I am not entirely sure I am….

Since Desmond had his shock he is now hanging out in the black room, where we know that he will re-experience memories from his past as well as work through some of the more alarming stuff he has witnessed. So if that is the case why would the Assassins want to put Desmond in a part of the Animus that would make him relive his memories to help stabilizes them just to erase these destabilized memories when he comes out? Under your theory the black room would remove the traumatizing memories at the end of ACB, but as soon as this would happen and Desmond came out he would be confronted by it again, as well there would be an obvious absence….

‘Present Desmond’ set aside if 16 is Desmond and he went into the black room to remove the memories that were making him crazy and he accidentally removed one too many….then he obvious would believe that he could heal himself, there would be no need for him to leave encoded messages behind or spill his blood all over the place.

I am afraid that this idea just does not make any sense…

I honestly believe that it is indeed a pre-recoded message. I think that this clearly points out that 16 is dead, and therefore no Desmond, or is alive and is being nursed back to health by the Assassins and off the grid and therefore not Desmond. I really, really, really, don’t think that 16 and Desmond are the same person.

I agree that 16 and Desmond sound a lot a like….but I don’t think that is evidence for or against your theory. After all at the start he has the female voice. The female voice of the animus says, “ Infrastructure, Tendons, Heart, ..” and the 16 says in a male voice, “voice.” So it could be argued that the voice you hear is the voice that the Animus chooses for him. Or it could be as simple as Ubi wanted to screw with our minds, making it sounds similar so we would even think to wander down the aimless bunny trail…

To be honest I don’t think any of us have any clue what is going to come next. It is fun though to speculate http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

samward
06-04-2011, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by AMuppetMatt:
Have you been watching South Park http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

In all honesty they don't sound too dissimilar to me. I know people unfamiliar with the game have commented that they've found it hard to distinguish between the two. However I'm not letting the voices sway my opinion much, If (and I really mean IF) they are the same then I'd imagine that Ubi would want different voices to have people off the scent so to speak.

Just watched that south park. funny and I felt rather 'startled' by it as well! hahahha

RzaRecta357
06-04-2011, 04:51 PM
Keep this up Samward. Because 16 and Desmond being the same person is a terrible idea and would be super cheesy writing.

samward
06-04-2011, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by RzaRecta357:
Keep this up Samward. Because 16 and Desmond being the same person is a terrible idea and would be super cheesy writing.

will do http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

papartusedmcrsk
06-04-2011, 09:24 PM
Golly I can't wait for November.

iMaxz
06-05-2011, 12:24 AM
Well, if she is pregnant or not, she isn't anymore. She get's stabbed at the ending of ACB.. By Desmond! He get's the Golden Apple the it makes him stab Lucy.. In the ending scene she says something refering to a succesor.. the game is full of surprise's so we'll know when ACR comes out!

phil.llllll
06-05-2011, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by AMuppetMatt:
He also mentions someone called "Jack" twice.


He's referring to JFK.


Originally posted by samward:
I think it is safe to assume from the info we do know then, that 16 knew that Desmond would be the next test subject. (Though he probably would not have known Desmond’s name from these early emails, simply for the fact that test subjects names are never used in emails)

I don't think it's safe to assume that at all. There's absolutely no evidence to suggest that 16 would know who'd be next.


Originally posted by samward:
So when Desmond has that controversial conversation with 16 in ACB, Desmond is not having a conversation at all, but listening to a recording left from 16. This would explain why 16 never answers or directly interacts with Desmond’s questions.

But 16 does directly answer him, for instance, when Desmond asks him to explain and sixteen replies "I cannot". There's really no reason to doubt that he wasn't talking to him directly.
=====================


Back to the subject, the idea of 16 being Desmond is just so absolutely ridiculous that, for that reason only, I don't think the writers would pursue that point.

AMuppetMatt
06-05-2011, 04:38 AM
Whilst not enough to have me completely abandon the idea that 16's Desmond, I'm gonna concede you've come up with some decent points and I'll stop rambling on http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I agree it'd be cheesy and contrived, so I don't think it'll be the case. Could have been done, but to be honest even I don't think it's the most favorable thing to do in terms of story. The interesting thing will be who subject 16 IS revealed as being though. It would be a bit anti-climactic to have a character that we've never seen or heard of being revealed as 16. It would make sense to have him as someone connected to the AC story deeply, but I can't think of anyone appropriate at the moment?

"No time. It is far later than you know. Too late to save them"

"She is not who you think she is. Everything you hope to become, everything you hold dear. It's already gone."

"Eden. She... in Eden. Find Eve. The key. Her DNA..."

"I cannot... The sun... Your son... Too weak... Must replenish energy..."

"I am with you until the end. Find me in the darkness"


And in Ac2:
1. Wolves
2. The Moon
3. A Knife


This is a bit like a game of dot to dot... can you connect everything so it makes sense? Or is it literally the ramblings of a mad man...

I've got nothing. Hell, that's probably all Ubi's given us... nothing. It'll end up being a new character whom none of these clues point to XD

ShaneO7K
06-05-2011, 04:53 AM
Originally posted by AMuppetMatt:


"No time. It is far later than you know. Too late to save them"

"She is not who you think she is. Everything you hope to become, everything you hold dear. It's already gone."

"Eden. She... in Eden. Find Eve. The key. Her DNA..."

"I cannot... The sun... Your son... Too weak... Must replenish energy..."

"I am with you until the end. Find me in the darkness"



The first two sound as if Subject 16 has lost all hope of anything successful happening, or that Desmond may not be able to save those closest to him while trying to save the world.

The third may have Desmond searching for the descendant of Eve (who I am guessing is the woman from The Truth video). And this may have us going to Africa, as the mountains in The Truth video have been said to resemble Mount Kilimanjaro.

The fourth has made me start to think that when the PoE's are set on the stands in the temples (Like how it was when Desmond and the assassin's found the apple) may actually give power to the Earths core which could somehow save the Earth from the Suns solar flare. Which may answer the "Must replenish energy" part as the Earth is at a weak state at this moment in time.

And the final one could just be that Subject 16 is waiting for us in The Black Room.

samward
06-05-2011, 05:14 AM
Originally posted by phil.llllll:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AMuppetMatt:
He also mentions someone called "Jack" twice.


He's referring to JFK.


Originally posted by samward:
I think it is safe to assume from the info we do know then, that 16 knew that Desmond would be the next test subject. (Though he probably would not have known Desmond’s name from these early emails, simply for the fact that test subjects names are never used in emails)

I don't think it's safe to assume that at all. There's absolutely no evidence to suggest that 16 would know who'd be next.


Originally posted by samward:
So when Desmond has that controversial conversation with 16 in ACB, Desmond is not having a conversation at all, but listening to a recording left from 16. This would explain why 16 never answers or directly interacts with Desmond’s questions.

But 16 does directly answer him, for instance, when Desmond asks him to explain and sixteen replies "I cannot". There's really no reason to doubt that he wasn't talking to him directly.
=====================


Back to the subject, the idea of 16 being Desmond is just so absolutely ridiculous that, for that reason only, I don't think the writers would pursue that point. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well 16 knowing Desmond was the next subject is a grey area, but all I was saying is that he would have known through his snooping that there would have been a subject 17. You are right that how much 16 would have known about this character is pure speculation. But it only seems logical that 16 knew or assumed that there would be a 17 and that this new subject would have eagle vision. After all he left the clues in blood behind so his messages and memories could be found in the animus. Why spill your blood to leave critical clues for someone you did not know existed or would never see once your handy work was cleaned up? I know 16 was crazy, but there was some sanity going on because he managed to cleverly leave some rather important info in the animus without the Templars knowing. Makes me think that he knew what he was doing.

As for the convo that Desmond has with 16...well hahah that convo can be twisted an turned into so many directions. Other then the spot you mentioned there is no direct interaction between the two of them. If you listen to just 16 speech it sounds about as interactive as one of those annoying answering messages, that make you think you are talking a real person," they say, hello?" and then you say, "hello" and they say, " i cant hear you...." and so on until you hear the beep of the answering machine and you feel like an idiot. Even that bit when he says, " I cannot" Can be interrupted as 16 speaking to himself and referring to what he says later about growing week. When someone is in a sporting event or anything that is draining in any capacity people often say, " I can't!" Why should 16 be any different?

Now with that said, I don't know if 16 is dead or not....but I really don't think that was a live convo...how on earth would 16 know the exact moment Desmond would find the code and be ready for the convo? There is no way 16 would know this...and we know that the code that led Desmond was there when Desmond arrived at Abstergo because it is encoded on the core that Lucy steals for the animus 2.0. So it was not like 16 hacking into the 2.0 and placed new code there during ACB. It was all done before Desmond even arrived at Abstergo. The odds of 16 knowing when he would need to interact with Desmond are stacked highly in his opposing favor. This is why I think it bust be a recording...nothing else make much sense to me.

Now what ubi will do with 16 I have no clue. I don't know if he is dead or alive...but I really don't think at this point that Desmond and 16 are one and I really don't think it was a live convo. Now I am not saying that I know everything...I could be 100% wrong...we all could be! Only time will tell. Just up to this point knowing what I do, this explanation makes the most sense to me.

So joining the crazy theory band wagon...
What do you guys think of the possibility that 16 is not real at all? That he was created by abstergo and implemented through Lucy ( who we are unsure of where her loyalties are at this stage) to screw with Desmond and the Assassins. So the plan all along was for Lucy to steal the core, where they created 16 and use it to push Desmond down a path they wanted him to travel. Even using other subjects memories ( such as the Eden video) and attributing them to 16. Now I know there is NO proof for this idea...and I am not sold on it...but I did think it was an interesting thought...

phil.llllll
06-05-2011, 06:42 AM
Originally posted by AMuppetMatt:
It would be a bit anti-climactic to have a character that we've never seen or heard of being revealed as 16.

I disagree. It's what he's done, not who is, that is important.

protesthishero
06-05-2011, 09:02 AM
I dunno guys, it'd be really boring if they introduce a new character who turns out to be Subject 16. It shamelessly treads on "standard fare" territory. And so far Ubisoft have done a pretty good job with the story, I'd hate to see them screw it up with that. With that said, here's another outrageous theory : (If you're getting annoyed by these, please stop reading because at this point, I'm just throwing stones at empty space.)
What if LUCY is the subject 16 we see in the executable file . i.e. There was a different Subject 16 who committed suicide and Lucy is using his name as a platform for her warnings. You guys remember Leila from the first game? It seemed to me like Lucy came dangerously close to knowing about something she was not supposed to. What if Leila was a test subject for a POE that gives a person powers similar to Mystique from the X-Men (hehe, go ahead. This is the point where you make fun of me). So Leila takes the form of Lucy to lead Desmond on a pseudo-quest to save the world because the templars know that if he stays in Abstergo he will become extremely uncooperative and pull a Subject 16-esque suicide. So they make her contact these renegades Shaun and Rebecca, seeing as they are extremely gifted in their respective fields and puppeteer this whole thing from above. Remember, deception is the Templar's primary M.O. And when Lucy found out about her, she also knew that the Templars would silence her eventually and so she places these warnings for Desmond in Subject 16's memories because no one would suspect anything. And the templars end up really doing something to her (killing her, perhaps?)
"She is not who you think she is" . Makes sense?
"The cross darkens the horizon". Yup.
"Find Eve!". Find the real Lucy!
And that's why Juno makes Dez stab the fake Lucy.
And the real Lucy was NEVER an assassin, but a Templar with good intentions and a lot of concern for Desmond's well-being. She is like the modern version of Maria. I'm pretty sure Sofia Sorto is a templar as well. We don't know anything about Shaun and Rebecca either, but I'm pretty sure they are innocent. The red trail can also be explained with this theory and as for Lucy being blue in Eagle Vision, I think EV requires a person to do something that is bad or to be visibly associated with the bad guys. A templar guard is shown as red simply because he is affiliated with the templars even though he might be freshly appointed and has not harmed anybody. Think about it.

AMuppetMatt
06-05-2011, 09:19 AM
Unsure how to tackle you're last theory, so I'll completely avoid it for the moment http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

However, Leila is a loose end that I feel needs to be tied up at some point. Shall be interesting to see if/when this is implemented and how...

twenty_glyphs
06-05-2011, 12:41 PM
To this point in the story, who Subject 16 is is unimportant. Why he's an interesting character is because of what he went through, what he found out and how he's trying to relay that message to Desmond. This big truth that he's trying to tell Desmond and the messages he's left for him are why 16 is important. We may never find out his actual identity, and that's fine with me because it doesn't matter right now. They've never alluded that who he is has been an important part of his story.

As for what he knows, I think most of what 16 has discovered about the future has come from any information he may have found from a Piece of Eden or TWCB in his genetic memories and not any of Abstergo's files on who they were using next. The First Civilization seems to know a lot about Desmond, so Subject 16 could have found out about Desmond and what Desmond needs to do from them somehow. Subject 4, Daniel Cross, saw a vision his ancestor saw when touching the Staff and also seems to know about Desmond. In The Fall #3, he's talking about the visions he's had and says:


My visions have shown me... everything. I don't know how else to put it. I saw the universe in an instant — its past, present and future. I've seen how humanity began and I've seen our potential, but only he can unlock it.

I think "he" is Desmond, so Subject 16 may have found out about him through similar means. In the vision that Subject 4 saw, there was a vision and some dialogue that looked like the American Civil War, matching one of the things 16 was rambling about. There's also some dialogue mentioning the woods: "Remember when we went walking in the wood? ... smell of the trees that year?" This vision could be related to what 16 saw.

AMuppetMatt
06-05-2011, 12:45 PM
I'm almost certain at some point during the AC2 glyphs 16 mentions walking in a forest... and I KNOW that one of 16's ancestors fought in the Battle of Gettysburg because that's one of the things he mentions near the end of his ordeal in AC2

TDGKills110
11-21-2012, 08:41 PM
While this theory is interesting, there are several large holes, although you may already know this since AC:R, The Lost Archives DLC, and AC3 have already been released.

In Revelations, Desmond meets the artificial construct of Subject 16 inside the Black Room (Animus Island) of the Animus. Not only do they look and sound different, but I think Sixteen would have explained to Desmond that they were one and the same if they were, or at the very least Desmond would have a *ahem* "revelation" of the truth. Now, here is the anti-air gun that shot down your plane. In The Lost Archives, a DLC for Revelations detailing the memories of Subject 16, named Clay Kazcmaric (last name may be spelled slightly incorrectly), through a platforming Desmond memory sequence-type gameplay. I will skip Clay's backstory, but near the end a "revelation" is revealed about Lucy: she is a double-agent for the Templars! Originally an Assassin, Lucy was forced to cut all ties with the Assassins at 17 and began studying at a university to garner the attention of Abstergo so she could infiltrate them. Warren Vidic took an interest in her work and hired her, realizing her value to the comapny and to the Animus Project. Lucy faithfully sent information back to the Assassins until sometime before 2011. Years of seperation from the Assassins and having to deal with the cold and seemingly apathetic attitude of the leader of the Assassins, William Miles, drove her away, and after Vidic made her an offer to become a Templar, she accepted. Clay was sent to infiltrate Abstergo as a volunteer for the Animus Project, mainly due to his rich background and relation to one Ezio Auditore de Firenze. The Assassins did not know Lucy was a traitor, but shortly after finding out what Vidic really wanted, Clay discovered a recording of a conversation between Vidic and Lucy: Vidic said that if the Animus sessions with a potential Animus test subject, Desmond Miles, was not going so well, Lucy would "break" him out of the facility and take him somewhere safe so a) he would find the location of the Apple of Eden and b) begin to trust Lucy. Once the Apple was found she was to steal it, bring it to Vidic, who would put it into their satelite and control the world. In "the Truth" sequence, Subject 16 was warning Desmond of Lucy, because he knew she was a traitor. However, she is not a bad person. Lucy still protected Clay, not telling Vidic of Clay's discovery, but said she couldn't let him leave and that she was sorry. Juno told Clay to help Demsond, and Clay agreed. After building an artificial construct of himself in the Animus, Clay slit his wrist with a ball point pen and painted symbols on the walls and floor of his room and the Animus testing facility, respectivley. Lucy was haunted by Clay's death till the day she dies, and that is why she was always protective over Desmond, she even told Vidic in Brotherhood via email she "didn't want another 16," to which Vidic, posing as W. Miles, replied that they had been searching for the Apple for a decade and not to give up due to feelings she may or may not have for Desmond. This is why Juno had Lucy killed, she knew Lucy would ruin everything. Now, the glyphs. Clay implanted the glyphs into the original Animus at Abstergo to show Desmond the Truth. When Lucy removed the Abstergo memory core and gave it to Rebecca, the latter, perhaps unknowingly, dowloaded the glyphs into the Animus 2.0, causing them to stll be there.

Conclusion: Lucy was an Assassin but became a Templar. Subject 16 was an Assassin named Clay Kazcmaric who forged an artifical replica of his mind in the Animus and committed suicide, successfully. Desmond is not Subject 16, because Subject 16 is dead. The glyphs were created by 16 to show Desmond the truth and downloaded into the Animus 2.0 by Rebecca after Lucy removed the memory core from the original Abstergo Animus. However, I will support one part of your theory: Lucy and Desmond may have had intercourse, and Lucy may have conieved a child. In an email sent by Shaun to Lucy and Rebecca, he asked if they all could go into town to a nice restaurant, have some alcohol, and relax. Lucy said Desmond couldn't leave the Sanctuary, and she wouldn't leave hima alone. Shaun then replies, saying "It's just you and me, Rebecca." This hints at the possibility of Rebecca and Shaun going into town for dinner and some drinks, leaving Lucy and Desmond alone the Sanctuary. So yes, Lucy and Desmond MAY have had sex (after all, nothing is true, and everything is permitted) :)

xboxauditore
11-21-2012, 09:05 PM
When would they do that? When Desmond'sin the Animus and Lucy just......You know? While he's in the animus? Oh god it's F.E.A.R all over again.

Ghostheldap
11-21-2012, 09:12 PM
Wow. Epic necro.

zhengyingli
11-21-2012, 09:25 PM
Wow. Epic necro.
That would be epic necrophilia, considering what the topic's about. :p

Death_Angel733
11-22-2012, 01:58 AM
Altair was an Assassin?
DUDE, MASSIVE SPOILER.
NOT COOL.

Someone put a Spoiler tag nao

LOL Imagine the free Porn Desmond relives when Ezio was in his younger days.

A shame that he didn't learn his womanizing skills.


I was gonna reply something about Desmond being a separate person from Subject 16, but then I saw this was posted a year ago.
Who BUMPed this?

Jexx21
11-22-2012, 04:19 AM
gais gais

aveline and connor had sex too