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dog-of-war
11-17-2006, 01:16 PM
just wanting to know did the germans use the d version of the 109 during the battle of britain
as i understand they still had quite a few of them at this time

AWL_Spinner
11-17-2006, 01:39 PM
Google would seem to suggest it unlikely they were anything but bit players on the channel front after extensive service in the Polish campaign; I'm sure some more knowledgeable Lufties will be along shortly to enlighten us.

Looks quite an interesting beast - a very different nose to the Emil. I hope we get the older crates in the BoB expansions, hopefully backwards through France, Poland and Spain in '37.

http://www.jdburgessonline.com/images/bf109/bf109d/bf109d-thumb.jpg


Bf 109D "Dora" - This is a model of a fighter like those that participated in the 1939 invasion of Poland. The D variant was the last version of the Bf 109 to have a Jumo engine.

It was supposed to be the first version fitted with a Daimler-Benz engine, but there were production difficulties, a fact the Germans concealed.

The first production version of the Bf 109 was the B variant. It was also the first to see combat when it was sent to Spain in 1937 to fly for the Legion Condor, the German air contingent sent by Hitler to support the Nationalists in the Spanish Civil War. The Polish campaign was the last significant action for Jumo-engined Bf 109s.
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JG53Frankyboy
11-17-2006, 01:41 PM
AFAIK no older versions than Emils flew combat missions during the BoB.
even in France in doubt it, but im not sure.
over Poland ,the most succesfull fighterunit , the JGr.102, flew Bf109D

Vike
11-17-2006, 04:55 PM
Oh yes,whatever if it was used or not in BOB,probably not,i wish we could have it with the new 1C/maddox sim.

This plane seems simply outstanding for me.
Its forms are smoother than the Emil.
It has a lovely aerodynamic line (http://www.warbirdpictures.com/LCBW/Me109-D1-3s.jpg) such as 109-F and 109-K...

-Some other photos here (http://www.messerschmitt-bf109.de/web.php?lang=de&auth=e&name=version_display&auswahl_hv=1&auswahl_uv=34&bildertyp=swfoto&selectversion=d1&versionscategory=5&nextpage=11#bm)-

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Hanglands
11-17-2006, 04:57 PM
Hi,

Martin Caldins book 'Me 109' (Purnells, 1968, History of the Second World War Weapons Book No4, Pg 74) states the Bf 109 E-3 undertook the bomber-escort and sweep and destory missions, and as the fighting escelated, the E-4 came into being. There are no mentions of the D series in respect of BoB at all.

The D Series was produced up until 1938 (the D-0 1937, the D-1 37-38), these aircraft would have been very outclassed by 39-40 by British equivalents.

The D series was passed over (I think in late 38) for the V-14 which became the more heavily armed E-0.

The first E-1's came about by early 39.

Three-quaters of the 109s into Poland in '39 were D series. One quarter E's. This gives an indication of speed of production, and the speed at which production can be switched.

I dont think by the Start of BoB (Aug '40) there were any D's in service.

All info from the book quoted above, hope that helps,

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Ratsack
11-17-2006, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by Hanglands:

The first E-1's came about by early 39.

Three-quaters of the 109s into Poland in '39 were D series. One quarter E's. This gives an indication of speed of production, and the speed at which production can be switched.


Regards.


The speed of the switch is deceptive in this case. Messerschmitt had changed over their prodcution line quite a bit earlier, in anticipation of the new DB 601 engine. As usual, however, the engine wasn't available on time. Rather than switch back to the C/D airframe, they kept the production line going, and stored hundreds of E series airframes that only needed engines installed. When Daimler Benz finally got their act together, hundreds of Emils became available.

It was not an example of good management.

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Vike
11-17-2006, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by Hanglands:
Hi,

Martin Caldins book 'Me 109' (Purnells, 1968, History of the Second World War Weapons Book No4, Pg 74) states the Bf 109 E-3 undertook the bomber-escort and sweep and destory missions, and as the fighting escelated, the E-4 came into being. There are no mentions of the D series in respect of BoB at all.

The D Series was produced up until 1938 (the D-0 1937, the D-1 37-38), these aircraft would have been very outclassed by 39-40 by British equivalents.

The D series was passed over (I think in late 38) for the V-14 which became the more heavily armed E-0.

The first E-1's came about by early 39.

Three-quaters of the 109s into Poland in '39 were D series. One quarter E's. This gives an indication of speed of production, and the speed at which production can be switched.

I dont think by the Start of BoB (Aug '40) there were any D's in service.

All info from the book quoted above, hope that helps,

Regards.

Thanks for this Hanglands! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Maybe we'll get it in a possible "Spanish Civil War" or "Polish Campaign-1939" SoW:BOB add-on... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

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zugfuhrer
11-18-2006, 03:34 AM
At Duxford emperial war museum there is a Me 109 http://duxford.iwm.org.uk/server/show/ConWebDoc.1224/viewPage/2
There is long and interesting story about this aircraft.

It is supposed to be a hybrid between a D and E because they where upgraded as quick as the logistics could bring parts to the squadrons.
I think that many aircrafts where more or less fully converted to Emil standard, but there must be some Doras that should be retired to flightschools that flew in combat during BoB.

JtD
11-18-2006, 04:44 AM
To my knowledge, virtually all D had been replaced by E by the end of 39.

zugfuhrer
11-18-2006, 05:51 AM
I couldnt find the page about debating the D or E version of the duxford Me 109, but I found this site and it confirmes that the a/c in Duxford never was anything else but an Emil.
It is worth reading.

http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/jg26/white4_peter.htm

leitmotiv
11-18-2006, 06:29 AM
See the orders of battle in virtually any B of Brit history worth its salt---I am thinking of Francis K. Mason's authoritative BATTLE OVER BRITAIN, for example---in a word, no. One thing that is not generally well known, there were a number of 109Es used over Britain which had only the four 7.9mm MG17 armament. I believe Kurfurst had some data on this. I discovered this when I was researching for a B of Brit 109E model, and was stunned by the number of 109Es shot down over the UK which had only the four m.g. armament.

The D did have a last hurrah in German fighter units opposed to the French in the fall/winter of 1939/40, and the highest scorer in this period flew a D! See FLEDGLING EAGLES by Shores/Foreman/Ehrengardt which has comprehensive OB information, and info on claims.

JG53Frankyboy
11-18-2006, 06:46 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
See the orders of battle in virtually any B of Brit history worth its salt---I am thinking of Francis K. Mason's authoritative BATTLE OVER BRITAIN, for example---in a word, no. One thing that is not generally well known, there were a number of 109Es used over Britain which had only the four 7.9mm MG17 armament. I believe Kurfurst had some data on this. I discovered this when I was researching for a B of Brit 109E model, and was stunned by the number of 109Es shot down over the UK which had only the four m.g. armament.

The D did have a last hurrah in German fighter units opposed to the French in the fall/winter of 1939/40, and the highest scorer in this period flew a D! See FLEDGLING EAGLES by Shores/Foreman/Ehrengardt which has comprehensive OB information, and info on claims.

the 4xMG17 Emil was the Bf109E-1 . still lot in use. often flown by wingmen.

anyway, AFAIK the highest scorer in LW during the "phoney war" was Mölders , CO of III/JG53 at that time, claimed 9 kills.
and sure flying an Emil in that time.

leitmotiv
11-18-2006, 09:16 PM
Here is what FLEDGLING EAGLES had on the Messerschmitt D:

Pages 102-3: Luftwaffe top-scorer in Polish Campaign: Hpt Hannes Gentzen of JGr 102 (I/ZG 2) flew the D. But, on 6 Nov 1939 on the Western Front, 27 Ds of the same unit were humiliated (4 Ds shot down, 4 Ds force-landed in Germany---to 1 H-75 force-landed in France!!!!) by 9 Curtiss H-75As of GC II/5. "The Curtisses had conclusively demonstrated their superiority to the D model of the Bf 109...." Hapless Gentzen was ordered to Berlin that night to explain himself!!!!

JG53Frankyboy was absolutely correct---see pages 174-189---the title of the chapter says it all: "MOLDERS MEN IN THE ASCENDANT". And, his unit, JG 53, only used the Emil.

For making such a mistake, I will atone by only flying Heinkel 111H-2s for the next week!

leitmotiv
11-18-2006, 09:37 PM
P.S. Fascinating nugget from FLEGLING EAGLES, page 201: British Hurricane pilots were claiming 109Es as shot down because they were seen to be descending trailing thick smoke, but they were not in distress "obviously the usual story of the Daimler-Benz engine's thick exhaust trail." I do hope Oleg models exhaust smoke in BOB! The only sim aircraft I know which belches thick smoke when firewalled is the Just Flight Lancaster for FS2004---all the engines trail thick smoke until you throttle back. Nice touch.

Hanglands
11-19-2006, 05:15 AM
British Hurricane pilots were claiming 109Es as shot down because they were seen to be descending trailing thick smoke, but they were not in distress

That is interesting.

I just read that the Luftwaffe were flying E-3's over England prior to the 'official' start of the Battle of Britain. So I guess that makes it more unlikely anything much older than the E-3 were used during the BoB. Just the occasional E-1 prior to upgrade of E-3 armament perhaps?

Also, on the subject of what came in between the D and E, there was an E-0 pre-production model which flew in '39, which had two nose mounted MG-17s, and two more in the wings. The first batch of E-1's had the same weapon configuration as the E-0 because they still had trouble with wing mounted cannon. So not all the E-1's had MG FF.

The E-2 never happened.

The E-3's I believe were the fist to have wing cannon, and also sported better armour and structural improvements.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Ratsack
11-19-2006, 06:18 AM
On a minor technical point, how many Bf 109-Ds were there? From memory, the Dora was meant to introduce the new, DB 600 motor, but it wasn't ready in time. Subsequently, Daimler Benz suggested the DB 601 which offered better performance and so the DB 600 for the 109 was dropped. When the DB 601 was available, instant Emil: voila.

Now, in the meantime, the 'Dora' got the old Jumo 210 motor. If the Clara already had the same engine, and the two-bladed variable pitch prop, and there was no change in weapons, then what exactly is the Dora?

There was some suggestion that it existed only as a propaganda creation to scare the French (i.e., we've got new, nasty 109s: beware!). That may or may not be true, but either way, how does one distinguish a Dora from a Clara?

cheers,
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Ratsack
11-19-2006, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by Hanglands:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">British Hurricane pilots were claiming 109Es as shot down because they were seen to be descending trailing thick smoke, but they were not in distress

That is interesting.

I just read that the Luftwaffe were flying E-3's over England prior to the 'official' start of the Battle of Britain. So I guess that makes it more unlikely anything much older than the E-3 were used during the BoB. Just the occasional E-1 prior to upgrade of E-3 armament perhaps?

Also, on the subject of what came in between the D and E, there was an E-0 pre-production model which flew in '39, which had two nose mounted MG-17s, and two more in the wings. The first batch of E-1's had the same weapon configuration as the E-0 because they still had trouble with wing mounted cannon. So not all the E-1's had MG FF.

The E-2 never happened.

The E-3's I believe were the fist to have wing cannon, and also sported better armour and structural improvements. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought the E-1 came with the four MG17s and that the E-1 fleet was only partially upgraded to cannon by the time of the BoB. I had (have?) an old mag somewhere with lots of pics of crashed 109s from the BoB, and a lot of them are E-1s, identifiable by the MG17s in the wings.

Most of the victims were E-3s, but there was one pic of a downed E-4B. It was extremely flat as a result of its SC250 exploding while still attached. Ouch. The caption said it measured only a handful of centimeters from the bottom of the cockpit to the top. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

As Batman said, 'Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb.'


Ratsack<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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OD_79
11-19-2006, 06:36 AM
Actually they were being used as Nightfighters into 1940 -

"A total of 200 Bf109Ds were delivered and it was this variant that fought he Polish campaign in addition to being used as night fighters above Germany. They were phased out in June/July 1940. Ten were sold to Switzerland and three to Hungary."

It also fought in France according to another paragraph.

Messerschmitt Bf109 - Classic World War II Aviation series - Edward Shacklady. 2000: Tempus Publishing Ltd.
ISBN 0 7524 2003 8

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JG53Frankyboy
11-19-2006, 06:46 AM
Originally posted by Ratsack:
On a minor technical point, how many Bf 109-Ds were there? From memory, the Dora was meant to introduce the new, DB 600 motor, but it wasn't ready in time. Subsequently, Daimler Benz suggested the DB 601 which offered better performance and so the DB 600 for the 109 was dropped. When the DB 601 was available, instant Emil: voila.

Now, in the meantime, the 'Dora' got the old Jumo 210 motor. If the Clara already had the same engine, and the two-bladed variable pitch prop, and there was no change in weapons, then what exactly is the Dora?

There was some suggestion that it existed only as a propaganda creation to scare the French (i.e., we've got new, nasty 109s: beware!). That may or may not be true, but either way, how does one distinguish a Dora from a Clara?

cheers,
Ratsack

-the 109C had Jumo210G with fuel injection.
max speed was 465km/h at 4500m.
58 produced.
-the 109D had Jumo210D with carburator.
max speed was 450km/h at 3300m.
647 produced

in older topics Kurfürst gave numbers of the 109 Emil versions that were in use at the beginning of the BoB.
E-1 and E-4 were roughly the same number, E-3 were not much anymore in comparison to the other two versions IIRC.

leitmotiv
11-19-2006, 07:00 AM
I hope we get the E-1 in BOB eventually.