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View Full Version : Accident or Hero...you decide.



MB_Avro_UK
02-03-2006, 04:51 PM
hi all,

This guy was flying on his own an unarmed training aircraft at night when he was attacked..

http://members.aol.com/airfields2000/bruce.htm

We will never know the truth..

Best Regards,
MB_Avro

georgeo76
02-03-2006, 05:00 PM
he got 1 kill regardless. I'd rather be lucky than talented.

Arms1
02-03-2006, 05:10 PM
hero...whether the collision was intentional or not

Prop_Strike
02-03-2006, 05:28 PM
I second that Arms1....He was a Hero, as were all the people who risked their lives to defend their country and loved ones.

Let's not forget that the young men in the German bomber were Heroes for their own country as well, they were just as brave and made the same sacrifice....

Let's NEVER forget any of them.

Arms1
02-03-2006, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by Prop_Strike:
I second that Arms1....He was a Hero, as were all the people who risked their lives to defend their country and loved ones.

Let's not forget that the young men in the German bomber were Heroes for their own country as well, they were just as brave and made the same sacrifice....you are remembered


Let's NEVER forget any of them.

Amen...i do find it hard to see the agressors in a war in the same light, the crew of that bomber spent thier formative years under national socialism indoctrination program, whether or not they were nazis is unkown. i am still glad they were not able to return to drop bombs on england again.

Thank you Sgt. Hancock for your sacrifice.

Tooz_69GIAP
02-03-2006, 10:33 PM
Very interesting. Based on the eyewitness reports, it would seem he did it deliberately. If it was deliberate, then in a time of war, he did what he thought he should and should be remembered for that.

If it was an accident, well, it resulted in 5 deaths, but what would have been the damage if the bomber had got through?

Marcel_Albert
02-03-2006, 10:52 PM
Hero IMO

Pirschjaeger
02-04-2006, 02:51 AM
It seems he rammed the bomber. He was unarmed and the bomber was at a higher alt. If he hadn't the intention to ram the bomber, he wouldn't have climbed. He propably would have shadowed it to relay location to base.

Seems logical enough that he deliberately rammed the bomber. But that wasn`t what made him a hero.

This was;

"Sergeant Bruce Hancock was completing his training with No.6 SFTS headquartered at RAF Little Rissington"

He was a soldier who was or atleast had the intention to risk his life to fight for home and family.

That`s a hero and there were many, on both sides.

Fritz

MB_Avro_UK
02-04-2006, 05:51 AM
hi all,

Please follow the link for a description of the Avro Anson of the type flown by Sergeant Hancock.

http://www.jaapteeuwen.com/ww2aircraft/html%20pages/avro%20652a%20anson.htm

Best Regards,
MB_Avro

Pirschjaeger
02-04-2006, 06:04 AM
He was in a trainer and alone, so I doubt he had a gun turret, or if he did, he didn´t have a gunner with him.

Surely not an accident. Like I said, he would have been moving away from the Heinkel if he had the intention to survive.

Fritz

MB_Avro_UK
02-04-2006, 04:45 PM
BTTT....

Enforcer572005
02-04-2006, 05:35 PM
I think he rammed them....if accounts that the nose gunner was firing and tracers were visible, tehn he would have certainly known enemy AC were bearing down on him.

Well never know, but i think the RAF should give him the benifit of the doubt and decorate him posthumously.

I mean, I would feel pretty lousy to make that kinda sacrifice and then find out later that it was considered an accident....that would really annoy my ghost, spirit, soul, etc.

SnapdLikeAMutha
02-04-2006, 07:38 PM
It *sounds* like it was a deliberate ramming, judging by the eyewitness accounts...but that's a funny thing about eyewitness accounts - you have to take them with a grain of salt.

Of course we'll never know for sure, it would be nicer to think it was deliberate though.

HotelBushranger
02-04-2006, 09:01 PM
I'd say deliberate. In war, soldiers can in some sitations recognise the greater picture, such as this. If he left, the bomber would have probably gone and killed maybe 50 people. Hence, he sacrificed his life in that other may live. Now if that's not a hero, then I doubt there ever will be such a thing.

rnzoli
02-05-2006, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
If he left, the bomber would have probably gone and killed maybe 50 people.
This is overly optimistic view.
MAYBE or MAYBE NOT.
He should have known that ramming the bomber will kill him and also destroys his plane. If he leaves to ssafety, he could have continued his career and shoot 20 bombers and save 500 lives. So was it a good idea after all?

So much for recognizing the big picture.

Ruy Horta
02-05-2006, 03:47 AM
To serve = Hero

I do not agree, sorry...

Low_Flyer_MkVb
02-05-2006, 05:18 AM
If he was in an Anson at night, he was probably training to be a bomber pilot - how's that for a bigger picture?

MB_Avro_UK
02-05-2006, 02:18 PM
hi all,

My considered opinion is that Sgt.Hancock rammed the bomber.

1) A commemoration was posted on the Church based on eye witness accounts.

2) As PJ posted,it would have been natural to turn left or right to avoid the bomber's fire.

3) He turned off his training navigation lights.

4) He told his brother-in-law that he would ram the enemy if he saw them.

5) To hit an enemy bomber accidently would be very unlikely.

Maybe I should contact the R.A.F. and ask that the circumstances should be reconsidered? Would any of you support me??

Best Regards,
MB_Avro

major_setback
02-05-2006, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
hi all,

My considered opinion is that Sgt.Hancock rammed the bomber.

1) A commemoration was posted on the Church based on eye witness accounts.

2) As PJ posted,it would have been natural to turn left or right to avoid the bomber's fire.

3) He turned off his training navigation lights.

4) He told his brother-in-law that he would ram the enemy if he saw them.

5) To hit an enemy bomber accidently would be very unlikely.

Maybe I should contact the R.A.F. and ask that the circumstances should be reconsidered? Would any of you support me??

Best Regards,
MB_Avro

Yes. Hero. He was in a combat situation ("and accidently killed the enemy"? No).

BM357_Sniper
02-05-2006, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
If he left, the bomber would have probably gone and killed maybe 50 people.
This is overly optimistic view.
MAYBE or MAYBE NOT.
He should have known that ramming the bomber will kill him and also destroys his plane. If he leaves to ssafety, he could have continued his career and shoot 20 bombers and save 500 lives. So was it a good idea after all?

So much for recognizing the big picture. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
C'mon, give the guy some credit. If he did it deliberately, then he knew he'd get that one without a doubt and save lives. If he had run, then he may have shot down a bomber or two or maybe he never would've shot down anyone. At that moment, he knew he'd get'm.

I hope I never need to depend on you to save my life. You would sacrifice me for some more kills at a later time. lol

major_setback
02-05-2006, 06:47 PM
Tribute:

http://users.tpg.com.au/adsls7ld/images/avro_anson.jpg



Without the turret:

http://www.deltaweb.co.uk/eagles/shows/leuchars01_54.jpg

http://www.gloster.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/arc/Anson.jpg

rnzoli
02-06-2006, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by BM357_Sniper:
I hope I never need to depend on you to save my life. You would sacrifice me for some more kills at a later time. lol

Small pic: if you are my friend, I will save you regardless of anyting else. I will act out passion, not much thinking.

Big pic: if it turns out that I saved only you instead of saving 1000 others at the same time (or later time), I haven't really gave my best for my country, have I?

The difference can be captured with the judgement about the Japanese kamikadzes? You will probably think they weren't heros' since they haven't really saved anyone, just mindless killers of lots of american people. But I think they were heros of the Japanese people, because they acted out of self-sacrifice for them.

Too much obsession with self-sacrifice can be dangerous. It's easy to stay on the high moral ground, when you have got only one chance to sacrify yourself. But the grim reality catches up quickly, if you have multiple choices (e.g.., whom to save etc.) but you can't save everyone.

SithSpeeder
02-06-2006, 08:22 AM
rnzoli--

Although the comparison to kamikaze pilots is an interesting one, the more I thought about it, the more I disagree. The Japanese system of fielding kamikaze pilots was forced upon their pilots--in other words, to disobey was dishonor and/or death. Sure, there were some who were volunteers and saw it as their duty to "save others in their country"--and so for those, that is bravery and to a certain extent, heroism. But some didn't have a "choice", others saw it as futile and a waste of life and resources.

At the point where a soldier makes the *choice* to sacrifice himself in time of war against the opponent's military (or military support) for the benefit of others, he is a hero to me.

Although having said that, the suicide bombers who indiscriminately take out civilians in their own "war" doesn't sit well http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif with my western values. I need to better evaluate why. Perhaps all life is precious and all futures are changeable.

Hmm.

* _54th_Speeder *

Saunders1953
02-06-2006, 08:52 AM
The Japanese kamikazes vs. the recent crop of suicide bombers issue, or more correctly, those that crashed into the WTC, was put into good perspective in "Blossoms in the Wind" by M.G. Sheftall (I'm paraphrasing a little bit here):

The Japanese kamikazes made their suicide dives out of love for their country, whereas those that crashed into the WTC did it out of hate for another country.


From what I've read and seen and heard of both kinds of suicide attacks, I'd have to agree to that from the big picture perspective, but of course I can't speak from the individual's perspective.

rnzoli
02-06-2006, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by SithSpeeder:
Perhaps all life is precious and all futures are changeable.

Hmm.
* _54th_Speeder *

I agree 100% with the 'Hmm.' http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif This is a tough subject to evaluate. I have no doubt that quite a lot of people in the world consider the WTC terrorists as heros, too. If the emphasis is on war-time and civilians, there will be many people who label the destruction of Dresden by the RAF bombers as a similar terrorist act. This would leave too far, outside of the thread.

What I agree with: life is precious and futures are changeable. Have to be careful not to give your life from something less precious. Example: I would throw away mine without hesitation, if I can save my children from death. Their life is more precious that mine, and their future is more changeable too. However, I would certainly not throw away my life to save our prime minister. Am I a bad guy now? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

For me being a true hero involves a cold-headed reasoning about what can you achieve with your sacrifice, and who else (besides you) will pay the bill (e.g., your family, who depends on you). If you still do it after this calculation, then you are my hero. If you hastily ram a bomber with your talented life, while destroying a training airplane NOT intended for air combat, perhaps in short supply, AND only to take out one bomber that is followed by a dozen more...well, that's more like a sad miscalculation. I still give credit for the personal strength to carry out that decision, but it was the wrong decision IMO.

Viper2005_
02-06-2006, 10:23 AM
At the risk of being seen to rain on the parade:

<span class="ev_code_RED">Dead heros are still Dead.</span>

And to quote Patton:

<span class="ev_code_RED">"The objective of war is not to die for your country, it is to make the other poor b*****d die for his"</span>

Is a single He-111 worth a pilot and an Anson? Probably, but it's not a very good rate of exchange; bullets are cheaper than aeroplanes.

vanjast
02-06-2006, 01:27 PM
I always remember the live interview with the OC of E-Company = Band of Brothers...

His grandson asked him, "grandpa were you a hero in the war ?"
His reply "No 'chuck', I was not a hero, the real heroes did not come home". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

I think that says it all..
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

IV_JG51_Prien
02-06-2006, 02:54 PM
Small pic: if you are my friend, I will save you regardless of anyting else. I will act out passion, not much thinking.

Big pic: if it turns out that I saved only you instead of saving 1000 others at the same time (or later time), I haven't really gave my best for my country, have I?

The difference can be captured with the judgement about the Japanese kamikadzes? You will probably think they weren't heros' since they haven't really saved anyone, just mindless killers of lots of american people. But I think they were heros of the Japanese people, because they acted out of self-sacrifice for them.

Too much obsession with self-sacrifice can be dangerous. It's easy to stay on the high moral ground, when you have got only one chance to sacrify yourself. But the grim reality catches up quickly, if you have multiple choices (e.g.., whom to save etc.) but you can't save everyone.

You are showing one thing that the living have over the dead:

Hindsight= 20/20.. 66 years later we all have the abiliy to sit back and analyze a decision that one man had to make in a split second. (Assuming that the collision was intentional, which it looks like it WAS). He saw an opportunity to make, what was most likely in his mind, some kind of impact on the war being fought. Obviously he couldn't save everybody. But he did save the lives of some. There are children alive today that might not be here because of what he did. (I am speaking for the non-combatants, those who did not put themselves in a situation to be killed like the bomber crews and the RAF SGT)

You speak of the big picture. Hell, the guy could have made it through training, and gone into operation with a squadron only to be shot down and killed/captured on his first mission. That is part of the big picture as well.. But like I said before.. Being able to look back and scrutinize his decision is not a luxury he had on that night.

In my book the man took a drastic measure during a struggle for the survival of his country. To me, he is a H-E-R-O