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capt.cindy
08-17-2007, 09:59 AM
this incredible game i've been playing for 6months? i would love to have some of the early jets(f-86)era on here for some nice gun kills.i searched all over the net for a mod and can't find a thing.i did see a guy make a p-51 VTOL from the carrier.


thanks:
Cindy

AKA_TAGERT
08-17-2007, 10:01 AM
no thank god

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2007, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by capt.cindy:
this incredible game i've been playing for 6months? i would love to have some of the early jets(f-86)era on here for some nice gun kills.i searched all over the net for a mod and can't find a thing.i did see a guy make a p-51 VTOL from the carrier.


thanks:
Cindy

Hi Cindy

Most people feel that the ability to mod plane performance, etc, would be for "the good of the sim". And many people would at least think that's what they are doing- making things better

But who exactly is the one saying that what gets modded is "correct" or even "more correct" than anything else?

You will see a lot of posts here by people that don't even use more than one reference source when discussing aircraft, and in turn use either erroneous or outdated information.

These are the same people who would in many cases, make mods, based on that faulty info. But they would think they are doing things "correctly". Far too few people who want to mod are objective or circumspect, and few hold themselves to a high enough standard

Also, far too few people even understand why their planes perform "poorly" or "incorrectly", when they can't even tell their angle of attack in a climb is different from an enemy's- this is the element responsible for many of the "AI makes UFO manuevers" complaints- the AI plane made a shallow dive, then climb, which made a gentle arc. The player sees this, and foolishly tries to dupliate the manuever, by pointing his or her nose at the target

Well, what happens is that instead of a gentle arc, the player makes a radical one, bleeds off energy fast, and stalls out. Then the complaints come "I did the same manuever!! This plane is p0rked!!11!".

NO, it wasn't. The pilot was p0rked

These are the people who, I am very happy to say, cannot mod the sim. And it's a good thing

p-11.cAce
08-17-2007, 10:50 AM
Most people feel that the ability to mod plane performance, etc, would be for "the good of the sim". And many people would at least think that's what they are doing- making things better

But who exactly is the one saying that what gets modded is "correct" or even "more correct" than anything else?

You will see a lot of posts here by people that don't even use more than one reference source when discussing aircraft, and in turn use either erroneous or outdated information.

These are the same people who would in many cases, make mods, based on that faulty info. But they would think they are doing things "correctly". Far too few people who want to mod are objective or circumspect, and few hold themselves to a high enough standard

Also, far too few people even understand why their planes perform "poorly" or "incorrectly", when they can't even tell their angle of attack in a climb is different from an enemy's- this is the element responsible for many of the "AI makes UFO manuevers" complaints- the AI plane made a shallow dive, then climb, which made a gentle arc. The player sees this, and foolishly tries to dupliate the manuever, by pointing his or her nose at the target

Well, what happens is that instead of a gentle arc, the player makes a radical one, bleeds off energy fast, and stalls out. Then the complaints come "I did the same manuever!! This plane is p0rked!!11!".

NO, it wasn't. The pilot was p0rked

These are the people who, I am very happy to say, cannot mod the sim. And it's a good thing
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Best post ever! If you would like a sim to mod thrid wire and msfs products are both easily moddable.

rnzoli
08-17-2007, 11:05 AM
i think there is a way to "mod", but then you have to work closely, very very closely to the development team. AFAIK some aircraft were included into the collection that way...

approval of your work being integrated into the product would always depend on the lead developer... which is a kind of guarantee, that beginners and amateur modders don't turn a good, competitive combat sim into garbage http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

avimimus
08-17-2007, 11:27 AM
Hi Cindy

Most people feel that the ability to mod plane performance, etc, would be for "the good of the sim". And

Just a reminder: Anyone who posts to a download related to "the problem" will be banned.
(I'm not a dev, just a "little friend")

The video you saw regarding the P-51 was done through manually editing a mission file so that the carrier was going at 300 kph...

There have been two people who have modded Il-2 but they kept quiet (until recently when some Russians started releasing mods and tools).

The general fear is that, if people were able to mod the sim a lot of misguided corrections based on limited knowledge, fuzzy recollections and pseudo-nationalist sentiment would lead to relatively inaccurate flight models.

In addition the online community is afraid of cheating. Oleg has said that it will be possible to mod SOW:BOB (the sequel) offline.

If the modding was limited to areas other than the flight models I am sure that many people would be for it.

carguy_
08-17-2007, 01:02 PM
Poor Cindy...

p-11.cAce
08-17-2007, 01:31 PM
f the modding was limited to areas other than the flight models I am sure that many people would be for it.
Yeah - like the way the aircraft look, missions, campaigns, music, difficulty settings, time of day, season, weather, engine management, weapon load, fuel load, camera views, video quality, sound quality, cockpit views, control sensitivity, key mapping, display size... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Actual now that I think about that list the only things that are not modable are those that would most likely be used as cheats.

Bearcat99
08-17-2007, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by carguy_:
Poor Cindy...

No need for rude facetiousness is there? I mean really..... Some of you guys kill me. This sim is so frickin good... and at a time when basically most other sims are loosing people or the diehard fans are closing ranks.. this one is STILL growing and some of you just tick me off with the way you welcome new people to the sim.... and CG you have been here longer than me and you should know better. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

capt.cindy
08-18-2007, 01:10 AM
thank you guys for the answers and i will over look the not so helpful ones.


cindy

DuxCorvan
08-18-2007, 03:43 AM
I would just like to change the default skins, at least when offline. Some of the stock ones are awful, and it's tiring having to check them for every campaign.

WilliVonBill
08-19-2007, 08:41 AM
some of you just tick me off with the way you welcome new people to the sim

Well put Bearcat. This is why many of us don't post much in IL2 forums, it's frankly not worth the cyber-grief.

As to modding IL2, well from an offline perspective I've never understood the attitude that modding is bad for the sim. Online, yes... I can see that. But offline? Either one chooses to use the mod or not. I certainly know there are certain aspects I'd love to be able to change as an offline player.

SeaFireLIV
08-19-2007, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
I would just like to change the default skins, at least when offline. Some of the stock ones are awful, and it's tiring having to check them for every campaign.

You can. Surely you know that?


And to cindy, the simple answer is no, but it`s for a good reason.

DuxCorvan
08-19-2007, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
I would just like to change the default skins, at least when offline. Some of the stock ones are awful, and it's tiring having to check them for every campaign.

You can. Surely you know that? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I can't. I mean, I wish I could have a reasonable good default skin for every plane -not just mine- in a campaign, without having to edit the campaign files or messing with DCG squadron configs or whatever.

AKA_TAGERT
08-19-2007, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
this one is STILL growing and some of you just tick me off with the way you welcome new people to the sim.... and CG you have been here longer than me and you should know better. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
You know.. Bearcat is right

The following is not meant as an excuse, just an explanation.

Lately we have been got a rash of hacker posts and posers (old members pretending to be new ones) making up new handles and asking silly questions about how to mod this sim..

I did the knee jerk reaction and treated you as such.. That was wrong! As Bear pointed out there really are NEW members coming to this 5+ year old sim and I have to remember that!

So with that said, please accept my apology.

csThor
08-19-2007, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by WilliVonBill:
As to modding IL2, well from an offline perspective I've never understood the attitude that modding is bad for the sim. Online, yes... I can see that. But offline? Either one chooses to use the mod or not. I certainly know there are certain aspects I'd love to be able to change as an offline player.

There are two kinds of simmers - those who have already been burnt by modding and those who have yet to make that experience. And yes my main "hunting ground" is offline.

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2007, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by WilliVonBill:

As to modding IL2, well from an offline perspective I've never understood the attitude that modding is bad for the sim. Online, yes... I can see that. But offline? Either one chooses to use the mod or not. I certainly know there are certain aspects I'd love to be able to change as an offline player.

Hi

You don;t see the problem because you aren't thinking of how the sim works

By changing, for instance, an aircraft's top speed, you are creating the potential for things like timeouts to 'break' and make missions unplayable. You are also potentially changing the time it takes to go from point A to point B, causing issues with spawning

that's just for the top speed

As a campaign maker, I have to rely on all aspects of the sim being identical for every player who installs a campaign I make. If there are 10,000 different combinations for a few dozen mods to interact with each other, how can I possibly playtest a campaign, to make sure it works for everyone?

It's impossible. By denying offline modding, the development team allows the work that I do to be used by everyone- not just the select few who use my preferred mods

It's not a case of the modded aircraft only affecting itself; that modded aircraft now effects a host of other things, which has a very real possibility of causing major headaches for offline play

WilliVonBill
08-19-2007, 11:03 AM
Gentlemen, I understand and respect what you're saying, but I can't agree whole-heartedly. Since the use of a mod is choice made by the user, so are the consequences of using a particular mod. If a given modded campaign requires stock FM - or even a modded FM for that matter - than so be it. It's a choice that I, as the user, make. It is certainly a choice I've happily made in other sims and games. As the user, I'm willing to make trade offs in some aspects in order to enjoy the benefits of modding in other aspects that result in the overall enhancement of my enjoyment of a given sim or game. As to the impact of modding on IL2, even now in the current locked enviroment of IL2 one can't necessarily produce a campaign that absolutely everyone can - or would want - to use. There are campaigns out that will only work if you have purchased a given third party add-on. Without it, the campaign will not work. Again, it is a choice made by the user... the modder simply states the required parameters for use of the mod. The user than makes an informed decision on whether or not to use the mod. It is the agony and the ecstacy of choice.

I know that we will be of different opinions on the question of modding IL2, and that's not a bad thing. That is the joy of civil discourse. I'm simply of the opinion that having a more open architecture would - in the long run - be more beneficial for the offline enviroment than determental. Then maybe I could get rid of that stupid bar blocking my view in the FW 190! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-19-2007, 11:32 AM
Well Willi, I've given you a straight, reasonable answer that is true and is a real consideration

Just because you personally feel it's the user's responsibility, that doesn't mean the developer wants the headache. I certainly cannot conceive of anyone in the community taking the huge time and effort investment that they do- for free, absolutely no charge- to produce campaigns and missions that will be guaranteed not to work because of modding

You're free to have your opinion but I have to say, I feel you're only thinking about yourself

carguy_
08-19-2007, 11:54 AM
You can read those threads.Just a bit of things floating `round here.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/2191096865/p/1

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/902...021026663#9021026663 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/63110913/m/9021026663?r=9021026663#9021026663)

WilliVonBill
08-19-2007, 11:56 AM
Well, rather than expanding this discussion into the realm socio-philosphy and the determination of personal responsibility and free-will, we can simply agree to disagree on the slightly less universal question of the pros and cons of modding in a game. As long as we can do so and shake hands as gentlemen, then all's right with the world. After all, it is a friendly discussion. Given the current locked status of IL2, it is - after all - just conjecture and 'what ifs'.

And yes, you did give me a resonable, well constructed answer and I respect you for it. Having done a bit of modding in other sims and games, I fully understand the investment of time and effort into a hobby. When I modded, I did so for the pure enjoyment of it... the 'tinkering' aspect of it. If my mod was used and enjoyed by others, well... so much the better.

zardozid
08-19-2007, 03:14 PM
IMO if at some point in the near future further development of "IL2 1946" was "put on the back burner" I would like to see development of the game handed over to a <span class="ev_code_RED">trusted 3rd party</span> .I love the game and believe that their is still enough interest(life) in the game that additional content would be welcomed by the community. I'll bet that their are still some talented people out their that would love to help develop some new content for the game...

I don't think the "keys to the kingdom" (Il2 coded needed to integrate material) should be made public, but should be trusted to a dedicated and trusted committee (3rd party). That way we wouldn't see exploitive or inferior content degrading the integrity of the game...

I think additional content could be offered online as an aftermarket (free) download. And that the additional content should register as a game up-date in the game. That way the amount and variety of up-grades could be controlled and on-line compatibility could be maintained for (honest and fair)competition.


Its just a thought... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

SeaFireLIV
08-20-2007, 03:20 AM
I get the impression that Cindy`s left the room... Don`t think she (he?) quite expected this much waffle!

WilliVonBill
08-20-2007, 05:26 PM
MMmmmmm..... waffles..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

SlickStick
08-20-2007, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by WilliVonBill:
Well, rather than expanding this discussion into the realm socio-philosphy and the determination of personal responsibility and free-will, we can simply agree to disagree on the slightly less universal question of the pros and cons of modding in a game. As long as we can do so and shake hands as gentlemen, then all's right with the world. After all, it is a friendly discussion. Given the current locked status of IL2, it is - after all - just conjecture and 'what ifs'.

And yes, you did give me a resonable, well constructed answer and I respect you for it. Having done a bit of modding in other sims and games, I fully understand the investment of time and effort into a hobby. When I modded, I did so for the pure enjoyment of it... the 'tinkering' aspect of it. If my mod was used and enjoyed by others, well... so much the better.

I recognize your point, but felt the need to comment on your statement that, "Given the current locked status of IL2, it is - after all - just conjecture and 'what ifs'."

There is a difference between modding for your own personal offline use and there is modding to cheat online. The software to read and change the encrypted files.sfs file has already been made public and until V4.09, online play is at constant risk.

In my experience, third party input has always helped to make past flight sims that I've played more enjoyable, like updated 3D models and graphically-enhanced objects, better sounds, nicer skins, etc. However, in every case, it has always led to online cheating.

I do not fault the people who want to enhance their product experience for their own benefit or the benefit of their friends, but when the tools are made available to the public, then online play suffers greatly.

Granted, as many here will cry...ahem, attest to, offliners probably do out-number the onliners, but onliners pride themselves in competition and their ability to challenge and hopefully defeat their opponents in a game where everybody is using the exact same FM, DM, settings and features.

Modders, in every case in the past, have destroyed online competition and ruined online play. CFS, CFS2, Jane's WWII Fighters, just to name a few.

WilliVonBill
08-21-2007, 07:23 PM
I can certainly understand your angst. If I were an online flyer I wouldn't be surprised if I were sharing it. But one can also make the assertion (and I've heard it made many times) that modding has extended the life of many games... including some of the ones you've mentioned. From a game company's perspective modding can be seen as a positive thing. A nifty way to extend the shelf life of a product beyond normal expectations. Granted, it wouldn't be a huge amount of sales, but when its a product that has already gone beyond it's development and support cycle then its pretty much gravy (albeit small change in the grand scheme of things) for a product you no longer have to seriously spend money on supporting. With that being said, I'm really not here to gore anyone's ox. In a perfect world you could fly online with pristine unsullied IL2 and I could fly offline with a version tweaked and modded to my little heart's delight... bit of shame the world's not just a little bit more perfect.

Oh well, the fact is that currently IL2 is locked... so enjoy your unsullied and pristine IL2 and I'll enjoy the offline world of IL2 and my dreams of what might have been.

Cheers to ya, mate. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

SlickStick
08-21-2007, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by WilliVonBill:
I can certainly understand your angst. If I were an online flyer I wouldn't be surprised if I were sharing it. But one can also make the assertion (and I've heard it made many times) that modding has extended the life of many games... including some of the ones you've mentioned. From a game company's perspective modding can be seen as a positive thing. A nifty way to extend the shelf life of a product beyond normal expectations. Granted, it wouldn't be a huge amount of sales, but when its a product that has already gone beyond it's development and support cycle then its pretty much gravy (albeit small change in the grand scheme of things) for a product you no longer have to seriously spend money on supporting. With that being said, I'm really not here to gore anyone's ox. In a perfect world you could fly online with pristine unsullied IL2 and I could fly offline with a version tweaked and modded to my little heart's delight... bit of shame the world's not just a little bit more perfect.

Oh well, the fact is that currently IL2 is locked... so enjoy your unsullied and pristine IL2 and I'll enjoy the offline world of IL2 and my dreams of what might have been.

Cheers to ya, mate. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

You kind of missed my point. It's not hard to find the software on the net to mod this game. As long as Oleg provides the promised protection for online play in V4.09, offliners can mod this game to their heart's content, as far as I'm concerned.

I want everybody to get whatever they want from this sim. I just want to see the integrity of online play stay intact. Sadly, no past developers have ensured that, once the mods appeared online.

Given Oleg's past track record about fixing known cheating in this game, I fully expect that V4.09 will restore the integrity of online play.