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J_Anonymous
11-16-2006, 02:36 PM
I recently discovered the joy of B&Z-ing in P-51. (I got frustrated flying Zero against P-51 off-line, so I switched the ride!)

When you dive P-51 on Zero, for example, what are the optimum conditions? For example....

What's the optimum angle of attack? (Say, sharrow dive from 30 degrees above?)

Convergence?

Should I pull up ABOVE the enemy plane, or should I fly underneath the belly, extend, and pull up?

Would you change your tactics depending on the enemy plane? (say, Betty instead of Zero, or what if you face Fw190 and Bf109 instead?)

Any other important things I should know? Thanks for your advice in advance.

J_Anonymous
11-16-2006, 02:36 PM
I recently discovered the joy of B&Z-ing in P-51. (I got frustrated flying Zero against P-51 off-line, so I switched the ride!)

When you dive P-51 on Zero, for example, what are the optimum conditions? For example....

What's the optimum angle of attack? (Say, sharrow dive from 30 degrees above?)

Convergence?

Should I pull up ABOVE the enemy plane, or should I fly underneath the belly, extend, and pull up?

Would you change your tactics depending on the enemy plane? (say, Betty instead of Zero, or what if you face Fw190 and Bf109 instead?)

Any other important things I should know? Thanks for your advice in advance.

general_kalle
11-16-2006, 02:50 PM
attacking the zeke/zero is very easy.
it dosnt matter where you hit. its a paper plane.

if you hit engine it catches fire.
if you hit fuel in the wing it catches fire.
if you hit the wing it brakes off
if you hit the tail it brakes off
if you hit the cockpit the pilot dies.
if you hit the fuselage from above the bullets will go through and possible kill the pilot
if you hit from below the bullets go thourgh and damages whatevers above.
if you hit the wings shortly its gonna leek fuel

short said zeke is piece of cake to destroy. but its difficult to hit.

betty has vulnerable engines.(all japanese planes has)

me109 and fw190 is much more difficult.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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OMK_Hand
11-16-2006, 03:48 PM
A U.S. Training film I have recommends diving under the target after hitting it from above and behind, using a steep dive angle, and either extending ahead with a high speed advantage before climbing to re-position, or turning 90 degrees either way under the target and climbing out in the blind area afforded by the target's wing. Good against fighters and bombers. Depends on the situation.

The vulnerable spots are the engine, pilot and fuel tanks.
In a fighter, start at the nose and work back in a diving or lead pursuit attack, and you'll hit them all.

In the P51, keep your I.A.S. below 500 mph and your rpm at 3000 max.

I'm no expert, but I hope this is of interest.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

OMK_Handsome

Keep the Faith.

Skyraider3D
11-16-2006, 04:27 PM
I'd use Galland's approach: "up and under". That is get up-sun, dive from above, pull up slightly underneath your target and attack him from behind-below. That is in a real life scenario when you don't have red and blue arrows giving your position away.

Unlike German ace tactics, I wouldn't recommend waiting till the Zero fills your windscreen. The .50s are a good spray weapon. Open fire from about 400 yards (500 if you approach really fast) and keep firing until the Zero catches fire or breaks off. Zeros have a fairly slow roll rate so if you surprise him this will give you the best chance of clobbering him good before he turns out of reach.

Also: when overshooting him, never pull up in front of his guns. Make sure you stay well clear of those 20mms. One hit in your Merlin and you're the one going down.


Online I usually fly Fw 190 and so often I manage to turn the tables on a fighter B&Z-ing me, then pulling up through my four 20mm guns! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Giantiguana20
11-17-2006, 11:30 AM
On a Betty I dive from above and nail the wings. Bettys will go up like a roman candle with just a few wing hits. On a Zero I take what I can get. I usually have the best luck comming up from below or comming in from behind. Real world this would be stupid because it totally sacrifices your speed advantage for a kill shot.

super71957
11-17-2006, 11:46 AM
Iwas just reading some of the great P-51 pilot report on SpitfirePerformance.com.
Alot of them are short accounts of there df but still go in depth,you can puruse these and get alot of info on how ETO Mustang pilots beat there enemy.
Some pretty wild reports and most enjoyable to read.
Chuck Yeager,Don Blakesee,Don Gentile,Charles Anderson and many other ace Mustang pilots are there.
Check it out! Enjoy

super71957
11-17-2006, 11:51 AM
I forgot to add the fact that alot of reports are cases where the Mustang got into alot of turn fights with FW190 & BF109"s.
It is aparrent in REAL LIFE that the P-51 could hold it"s own in just about any kind of fight it got into. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Skyraider3D
11-17-2006, 12:13 PM
Very true. I believe the P-51 is the most under-modelled plane in the game, along with the .50 cal being one of the most undermodelled guns http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The Mustang reports are indeed a great read. Be sure to check the Tempest ones as well.

Some time ago I interviewed a Mustang veteran pilot and talked about his kills. This was for me to prepare an artwork for him, which can be seen here:
http://digitalaviationart.com/tigersrevenge.html<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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VW-IceFire
11-17-2006, 03:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skyraider3D:
Very true. I believe the P-51 is the most under-modelled plane in the game, along with the .50 cal being one of the most undermodelled guns http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The Mustang reports are indeed a great read. Be sure to check the Tempest ones as well.

Some time ago I interviewed a Mustang veteran pilot and talked about his kills. This was for me to prepare an artwork for him, which can be seen here:
http://digitalaviationart.com/tigersrevenge.html </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Go fly a Macchi and tell me that the plane is undermodeled and that the .50cal is an undermodeled gun!

P-51 has its share of problems...but its definitely not the worst in the game.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Philipscdrw
11-17-2006, 05:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by super71957:
I forgot to add the fact that alot of reports are cases where the Mustang got into alot of turn fights with FW190 & BF109"s.
It is aparrent in REAL LIFE that the P-51 could hold it"s own in just about any kind of fight it got into. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, you don't get many reports where the pilot lost the combat and got shot down over enemy terretory, do you?<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Tator_Totts
11-17-2006, 05:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by super71957:
I forgot to add the fact that alot of reports are cases where the Mustang got into alot of turn fights with FW190 & BF109"s.
It is aparrent in REAL LIFE that the P-51 could hold it"s own in just about any kind of fight it got into. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, you don't get many reports where the pilot lost the combat and got shot down over enemy terretory, do you? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well if a lot of Mustangs were getting shot down from turning I am sure they would have said, Do not turn with a German plane. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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J_Anonymous
11-17-2006, 07:32 PM
Thank you for useful technical suggestions. I decided to ask, as somebody seems to have noticed, because my beloved Zero piloted by AI gave me a surprise burst of 20 mm from behind while I was climing up after I sprayed him lol

One more question, this one regarding gunnery: when you make a B&Z attck with P-51, how long should I pull my trigger? Like, only 0.3 sec, 1 sec, or 2 sec? Depends on speed? While you are shooting, do you adjust your stick / pedals?

[Please don't turn this thread into one of those familiar arguments. I really want to hear technical advice from P-51 lovers. Thanks.]

ColoradoBBQ
11-17-2006, 10:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by J_Anonymous:
One more question, this one regarding gunnery: when you make a B&Z attck with P-51, how long should I pull my trigger? Like, only 0.3 sec, 1 sec, or 2 sec? Depends on speed? While you are shooting, do you adjust your stick / pedals? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You pull the trigger for as long as you see the target.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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J_Anonymous
11-17-2006, 11:05 PM
Hmmm, I got yore message, we get a plenty of 12.7mm ammo in US planes, no point to save them eh? I guess I am too conservative because 20mm of A6M2 lasts only for seconds, and I have developed a habit to worry about ammo.

Brain32
11-18-2006, 02:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Would you change your tactics depending on the enemy plane? (say, Betty instead of Zero, or what if you face Fw190 and Bf109 instead?) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, I have no real expirience against Japaneese planes, but with German planes... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Anyway 109's are so easy to handle it's ridiculous, you are so much faster, more agile at any meaningful speed etc that 109 really has nothing to do without massive advantage or a series of your mistakes. It's also not stronger than a Zero. If 109's were really as bad as they are in IL2 I'm sorry to say that guys that got shot down by them in WW2 were completely incompetent.
190's are a bigger problem, but truly your only problem is the Dora, you can out-everything any FW190A so they can't be much of a threat can they? I like the P51 in game it's a very capable plane http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

This is my sig http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ColoradoBBQ
11-18-2006, 01:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by J_Anonymous:
Hmmm, I got yore message, we get a plenty of 12.7mm ammo in US planes, no point to save them eh? I guess I am too conservative because 20mm of A6M2 lasts only for seconds, and I have developed a habit to worry about ammo. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You just want to make sure the target is crippled with extreme damage so you can climb to safety without worrying that you'll fall victim to a lucky snapshot.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://ourworld.cs.com/Gebaupointy/Backup1.JPG

super71957
11-18-2006, 03:19 PM
Tater-Totts ,
My statement has to do with the P-51 turn fighting.
What has getting shot down over enemy territory got to do with that statement?
I will tell you-nothing.

Regards,Craig

Waldo.Pepper
11-18-2006, 06:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Well, you don't get many reports where the pilot lost the combat and got shot down over enemy terretory, do you? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you think that maybe just maybe the quality of the pilots had more to do with this than the character of the plane.

You are aware are you that the Luftwaffe was lucky to produce pilots of even the lowest grade for the time period that these account are detailing.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/WaldoPepper/sig/p61rev.jpg

Waldo.Pepper
11-18-2006, 06:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Tator_Totts
Well if a lot of Mustangs were getting shot down from turning I am sure they would have said, Do not turn with a German plane. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They did. At least the smarter pilots followed this advice.

I didn't turn with the enemy pilots as a rule. I might make one turn - to see what the situation was - but not often. It was too risky.

? General John C. Meyer, Vice-Chief of Staff, USAF.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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super71957
11-19-2006, 01:01 AM
Come on guys ,there is an old saying
Don"t kill the messenger! lol
I am just saying by all the accounts I read that the Mustang was a very capable fighter,no more, no less.
I can only go by the pilot encounters that I see,so please don"t flame me.

Regards,Craig

JamesBlonde888
11-19-2006, 08:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by general_kalle:
attacking the zeke/zero is very easy.
it dosnt matter where you hit. its a paper plane.

if you hit engine it catches fire.
if you hit fuel in the wing it catches fire.
if you hit the wing it brakes off
if you hit the tail it brakes off
if you hit the cockpit the pilot dies.
if you hit the fuselage from above the bullets will go through and possible kill the pilot
if you hit from below the bullets go thourgh and damages whatevers above.
if you hit the wings shortly its gonna leek fuel

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this for Zeke or P-51???<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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shahram177
11-21-2006, 11:12 AM
I'm newish, so I'm no P-51 expert.
But here is what you need to know about the P-51. It has huge guns and huge torque.
The guns are a positive thing.
The torque not so much.
To prevent flat spins and really wide turns you have to modulate the throttle allot more than any other plane.
As for how to kill Zeros? Here is what I have done with much success. On a large map take off and climb climb climb. When you spot a zero or any other bogie keep climbing until they are dad under you. Roll over and dive and at around 400mph cut the power. Now as you dive down on the bogie you want to aim just ahead of the nose not the tail. When you are with in say 1,000m just unload and increase your dive angle until you are now looking at the tail.
Dive under the plane, pull up, gun the engine and pull up! As you do let off another burst of bullets. As you do so give some rudder and check your 6 to make sure you are clean.
As you climb up keep an eye out as soon as you see your air speed drop less than say 150mph role her over, cut the gas and pull up and gun it. Now if that bogie is still alive you can now take a second shot. But if its dead use this incline scissors tactic to gain some altitude and look for the next target.
Now key thing here to remember, as you dive aim for the nose and work your way back!

Now say if you find your self in a turning fight, well you can cut back on the gas a little and use the combat flaps to help you around. But to be honest she's really touchy threw turns so try to stay away from tight turns.

Wtornado_439th
11-24-2006, 07:27 AM
You tell them Icefire the MC-2XX rides are
a joke when it comes to cannon fire.

Nothing wrong with the .50's do like they
did get within a 100 yards.Don't forget they
are .50's not cannons.

Oh ya and the Zeke catches fire even when its
shadow is hit.

Xiolablu3
11-24-2006, 12:56 PM
P51 is a sweet bird but requires practice to do well in it.

A bit like a FW190 without the big cannons.

SHe is not a Spitfire, so dont fly her as one. She turns very well at high speed, but was never good at low speed turnfighting.

Keep your speed up, if it turns into a hard manouvring dogfight, then climb and attack agian. dont try and follow the enemy thru twists and turns with it if you are bleeding energy.

Use energy fighting http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Wtornado_439th
11-25-2006, 02:33 PM
''SHe is not a Spitfire, so dont fly her as one. She turns very well at high speed, but was never good at low speed turnfighting.''

The Stang sure isen't a Spitfire.

Best thing to do join a Brit or Commonwealth
Sqd and fly the Spit.

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mynameisroland
11-29-2006, 06:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by super71957:
I forgot to add the fact that alot of reports are cases where the Mustang got into alot of turn fights with FW190 & BF109"s.
It is aparrent in REAL LIFE that the P-51 could hold it"s own in just about any kind of fight it got into. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes in a 'bounce' the Mustang could hold its own with just about anything. As could any other fighter attacking an enemy with the advantage of height and or surprise.

Late war pretty much all fighters were on par. If you get jumped flying a Mustang by a Fw 190 you are going to get shot down and vice versa.

If you want to go in to a turnfight with a Zero or a Bf 109 or even a Fw 190 be prepared to lose more than your fair share. P 51 was not and is not a great turnfighter.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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