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Curtiss_P-6E
11-06-2005, 06:56 PM
In my sig is my computer specs. AMD users my be different. I deleted, copied and renamed the coreP4 deal.

Below you will find some tracks that I made. The first is just a basic trafic pattern flight. Other tracks will follow if Kuna gets them posted. Each track is an F4U-1A vs each Zero fighter. A6M2, 2-21, 2-N, 3 and 5. Quck mission, 50% fuel both aircraft as well as average pilot.

My stck settings are as follows using note pad.

[rts_joystick]
FF=1
1X=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
1Y=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
1U=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1Z1=1 14 28 35 42 53 60 68 75 83 100 20
1Z2=1 14 28 35 42 53 60 68 75 83 100 20
1V=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1X1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1Y1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1X2=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1Y2=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0

Controls are as follows.

Microsoft Force Feedback 2 USB
CH Pro Peds USB
CH Throttle USB

Do I need to post any other info?

Here is my first track. No Dogfight. Custom airfield NG map. Barakoma Airstrip, Vella Lavella. Notice that I am not hard on the rudder. This is fine unless you get into a dogfight (see other tracks) or try to line up on a straffing run, or spray a bomber from wingtip to wing tip (just for fun). Also I am not using tailwheel lock. I try to keep the "ball" centered at all times which means using the rudder peds. Sorry for the bad landing. I sent my other tracks to Kuna to see if he will post them.

214Hawk5 track (http://free-vk.t-com.hr/domagoj/tracks/214Hawk5.zip)

Again, I will update other tracks if Kuna can get them downloaded.

Here is my second track. This time I am not really trying to shoot him down so ignor power settings and all but the flight controls. Try viewing cockpit first then external. When viewing cockpit, use mouse to move view slightly down where you can see the rudder peddle movements.

F4U vs A6M3 (http://free-vk.t-com.hr/domagoj/tracks/402WT_Curtiss__F4U1AvsA6M3number2.zip)

Regards

Curtiss_P-6E
11-06-2005, 08:15 PM
Well fiddlesticks, I just noticed my stick settings somehow got messed up. I reprogramed them but dont see much difference in the "wobble?".

[rts_joystick]
Force FF=1
Roll 1X=1 1 3 6 12 21 32 44 61 81 100 0
Pitch 1Y=1 1 4 8 15 24 33 44 60 77 100 10
Prop 1U=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
Power 1Z1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
Yaw 1Z2=1 14 28 35 42 53 60 68 75 83 100 30



FF=1
1X=1 1 3 6 12 21 32 44 61 81 100 0
1Y=1 1 4 8 15 24 33 44 60 77 100 10
1U=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1Z1=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1Z2=1 14 28 35 42 53 60 68 75 83 100 30

Tully__
11-07-2005, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by Curtiss_P-6E:
...Notice that I am not hard on the rudder...
I noticed that you're barely on the rudder at all. Except at cruise throttle and flying straight & level the ball spends most of its time hard against one side or the other of the slip indicator and the rudder pedals never move to compensate...this means the aicraft is already out of balance and you'll be using aileron to compensate putting it further out of balance. I thought I had slack rudder discipline http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Kuna15
11-07-2005, 04:29 AM
@ Curtiss_P6-E I have hosted two tracks only (I haven't got space for more)
402WT F4UCurtiss (http://free-vk.t-com.hr/domagoj/tracks/402WT-Curtiss_P6-E_feat_F4U.zip)

Already posted it in IceFire's General Discussion wobble thread.

On first track vs A6M3 on about ~3:15min duration of the track although you could use rudder to compensate in order to get firing solution you are using ailerons more (wing armed planes particularly will suffer significantly as an result unless it is shot from a perfect convergence -- all bullets in one spot).
I am using ailerons a lot more in situations where I should normally use rudder to correct aim and to some extent I see that on your tracks too.

Curtiss_P-6E
11-07-2005, 04:43 AM
Originally posted by Kuna15:
@ Curtiss_P6-E I have hosted two tracks only (I haven't got space for more)
402WT F4UCurtiss (http://free-vk.t-com.hr/domagoj/tracks/402WT-Curtiss_P6-E_feat_F4U.zip)

Already posted it in IceFire's General Discussion wobble thread.

On first track vs A6M3 on about ~3:15min duration of the track although you could use rudder to compensate in order to get firing solution you are using ailerons more (wing armed planes particularly will suffer significantly as an result unless it is shot from a perfect convergence -- all bullets in one spot).
I am using ailerons a lot more in situations where I should normally use rudder to correct aim and to some extent I see that on your tracks too.

Guess why I dont use the rudder "too" much....wobble.....and I never get a good shot.

I will try to get a better track were I do use the rudder. There you will see the woblle two fold. Which is supose to be the reason for this thread....DUH on me!

Kuna15
11-07-2005, 04:48 AM
Originally posted by Curtiss_P-6E:
lol, sorry Kuna..thanks for the help!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Not a problem, I'm glad if I can help http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.


Originally posted by Curtiss_P-6E:
Guess why I dont use the rudder "too" much....wobble.....and I never get a good shot.

I will try to get a better track were I do use the rudder. There you will see the woblle two fold.

I thought so http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.
And yes, perhaps one track in P-51D just because I see that some players are suggesting that F4U wasn't so stable plane (I didn't want to get involved in discussion about specific plane stability in this case F4U).

han freak solo
11-07-2005, 06:34 AM
Originally posted by Tully__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Curtiss_P-6E:
...Notice that I am not hard on the rudder...
I noticed that you're barely on the rudder at all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Curtiss and I have the same problem on track playback. While making the track the ball naturally tries to find center even without much rudder input. In the track playback, the ball basically points to the earth regardless of rudder input actually made.

I know I didn't kick hard opposite rudder in my track, and I bet Curtiss didn't either.

Is this bug normal?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

73GIAP_Milan
11-07-2005, 08:35 AM
I have watched the tracks and my conclusion is;
there is definitely a wobble, as i have it aswell, exactly the same.

But i also fly exactly same and with the corsair i have little trouble aiming. Since i have this very same thing since 4.01 i might have gotten used to it. I fly the F4u quite alot so that might be the 'solution' to my wobble, as i do annoy myself to death with other planes like the P-39, '47 and '51..

There is definitely something though, but as i recognised my own style back in those tracks i was on the verge of saying that nothing is wrong, so errr... I'm a wobblepatient aswell from this moment on..

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

EDIT: I made a track aswell:
http://members.chello.nl/j.wisseborn2/f4u1a_vs_ace_a6m5.zip

VF-17_DWolf
11-07-2005, 09:51 AM
I just watched your track. Cool map by the way!

I tried to duplicate it.

I put a Corsair in QMB, airstart of course, Trimmed it up for level flight with 75% power and prop. The ball was centered at level flight.

Made a shallow left turn about 15 degree's, ball stayed centered, made one to the right, ball stayed centered. And did I mention I didn't use rudder at all. Even made 90 degree bank's and the ball stayed centered, with NO rudder input at all. So I tried a slow roll and it stayed centered, no rudder input.

Next I did a climb at 130 mph, with the same power setting's and everything trimmed for level flight, didn't touch the rudder. The ball slid to the right as it should from P-factor and torque!

Next again from level filght same power setting's, I put the Corsair in a dive, the ball slid to the left like it should from P-factor and torque!

For me the game is working perfect. I couldn't get your Effect's if I tried.

I DIDN'T do a clean install. I just added the 4.02m over my game's 4.01m patch, no problem's here.

I wonder what's causing your problem's?

Hope you find a solution,

VF-17_DWolf.

Curtiss_P-6E
11-07-2005, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by han freak solo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tully__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Curtiss_P-6E:
...Notice that I am not hard on the rudder...
I noticed that you're barely on the rudder at all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Curtiss and I have the same problem on track playback. While making the track the ball naturally tries to find center even without much rudder input. In the track playback, the ball basically points to the earth regardless of rudder input actually made.

I know I didn't kick hard opposite rudder in my track, and I bet Curtiss didn't either.

Is this bug normal?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I noticed this on your post in another thread. I made a coment then discovered it must be a bug after watching my own track...lol

Curtiss_P-6E
11-07-2005, 05:24 PM
Ok guys, I submitted my last track to Kuna for posting.

In this track I enter the fight easy on the controls, mainly rudder input. I then just try to keep the zero in my sights. Then I allow..hehehhe... him to wander just a little so I can hit the rudder. I am not use to this due to flying easy as to avoid the wobble, thus sometimes over controlling. As you can see the wobble as well as some over controlling pushes me past a solid gun solution. Also notice that when the zero is constantly moving, its very hard to get that solod burst of fire into him. You can obviously tell when he is stable, I can keep it still enough for that solid, explosive bust of gun fire.

This is why I am not a dogfighter. By the time I get a solution, I have lost my energy and am doomed if I miss, which I usually do. Therefore I boom and zoom looking for the sleeping zero pilot or the nice white bottom of an inverted zeke looking at someone else http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif


My settings and all other info are posted in this thread. If you see something, anything, my ears are listning.

Regards


Patiantly awaiting Kuna to post the track http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

OMK_Hand
11-07-2005, 05:34 PM
I fail to see the problem...

Curtiss_P-6E: you're flying at maximum fuel conserve settings with the rad open and expect crisp manoeuvrability? I'm sorry if I'm missing the point.
Kuna15: you're flying at War emergency power for virtually the full duration of both your engagements. That's a LOT of hot power screaming away... Again I'm sorry if I'm missing the point.

Power is not the same as performance.

This noticable 'wobble' appears 'normal' from my point of view whenever a plane is struggling either to manoeuvre at high power/speed or at to low a speed . In these examples both of you are flying at opposite extremes of performance in my opinion.

Tully__
11-07-2005, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by Curtiss_P-6E:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by han freak solo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tully__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Curtiss_P-6E:
...Notice that I am not hard on the rudder...
I noticed that you're barely on the rudder at all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Curtiss and I have the same problem on track playback. While making the track the ball naturally tries to find center even without much rudder input. In the track playback, the ball basically points to the earth regardless of rudder input actually made.

I know I didn't kick hard opposite rudder in my track, and I bet Curtiss didn't either.

Is this bug normal?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I noticed this on your post in another thread. I made a coment then discovered it must be a bug after watching my own track...lol </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Fair enough then http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I'll look at the other tracks when I get a moment

Curtiss_P-6E
11-07-2005, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by OMK_Hand:
I fail to see the problem...

Curtiss_P-6E: you're flying at maximum fuel conserve settings with the rad open and expect crisp manoeuvrability? I'm sorry if I'm missing the point.
Kuna15: you're flying at War emergency power for virtually the full duration of both your engagements. That's a LOT of hot power screaming away... Again I'm sorry if I'm missing the point.

Power is not the same as performance.

This noticable 'wobble' appears 'normal' from my point of view whenever a plane is struggling either to manoeuvre at high power/speed or at to low a speed . In these examples both of you are flying at opposite extremes of performance in my opinion.


The post is not about performance, its about the wobble at verious speeds and with using different input forces, i.e. a little or a lot of rudder input.

In college I took a course called, "Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators". I either cant remember anything or this sim is driving me crazy.

OMK_Hand
11-07-2005, 06:42 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Ok
I see the same as you I think, but I've just accepted it as normal. It does seem to 'go away' for me when things are 'balanced' though.
I've never thought of it as an input problem.

Curtiss_P-6E
11-07-2005, 07:15 PM
No one is coordinated when in a heated dogfight. The pilot is looking in the gun sight more than looking at the "ball". An uncoordination is needed when you want to kick the tail around a lot but with little bank in order to get a good shot. Its at this time of abrupt input that the nose wobbles. Its a yaw wobble for me and not roll or picth. Well, sometimes it can be pitch related if the pitch axis is not trimed.

For several years now I have been called crazy untill all of a suden these other posts are made. I just stay fast and wait for something to pull in from of me then pull the trigger. Seldom do I ever dogfight due to this almost uncontrollable wobble when making abrupt controll inputs for snappy movement.

Normal?...I doubt it but I just deal with it and hoped that these new threads about it would uncover a secret.

Toasted_Toad
11-07-2005, 11:45 PM
Hi Guys,

This may be on the "Wrong Track" (sorry,bad pun intended)but I used to hate the low-level(only under 350M)wobbling.

I turned off 'Wind & Turbulance" in the difficulty page & all was well http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If you're talking about Control Induced wobble then I have no clues, sorry.

Cheers All,

The Toasted One.

OMK_Hand
11-08-2005, 01:37 AM
Curtiss_P-6E:

In that case, I don't see what you see, for I have no problems in a dogfight other than the expected ones.

Just for information I have a Saitek X52 with these settings for pitch, roll and yaw:

1X=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1Y=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1RZ=0 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 100 0

Good luck.

Kuna15
11-08-2005, 05:49 AM
Hand that seems quite radical to me (joystick values) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Anyway .nrtk does not show "ball" action properly, one must watch external rudder surface to get actual feeling for rudder input and evaluate "wobble".

Kuna15
11-08-2005, 05:58 AM
Oh, and the track http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

402WT__CurtissF4U_vs_A6M3 (http://free-vk.t-com.hr/domagoj/tracks/402WT_Curtiss__F4U1AvsA6M3number2.zip)

OMK_Hand
11-08-2005, 10:48 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
As long as I'm gentle, the response I get is smooth and accurate.
I've no idea why.

After patching this time I kept stalling in turns etc. and wondered why.
The only thing I do different now after thinking about it is to keep within engine operating limits and things are sweet. No more stalls.

It must be in my imagination...

Oh, and in Tully___'s....

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/5111047273/p/1

Curtiss_P-6E
11-08-2005, 04:15 PM
OMK did you look at my last track that Kuna just posted? All is ok untill I need that extra rudder to get the nose where I need it. Sure it puts the aircraft out of coordination but its gonna happen in a dogfight. Somewhat like aiming at the left wingtip of a bommer and kicking the right rudder and straffing the bomber from left wing all the way to the right wing tip. I can not do this due to the uncontrollable wobble. Yes it is uncontrolable because you have to just sit and wait for the wobble to stop before doing anything else.

In real life I fly tailwheel airplanes and airplanes that demand rudder control. Its unlike anything in this game or like any cessna or modern airplane. I have seen enough real life combat footage to know that those guys did not have what I have. Sure its a game I know but it would be nice if someone could halp me get it fixed....game engine or my computer.

I also understand that aerobatic airplanes as well as a good fighter need not be to stable, it makes for a more maneuverable airplane.....plus possable wobble? I know the Foker Triplane was a unstable airplane. My friend had a full scale replica and was exhuasted after each flight to and from a fly-in.

Regards

Professor_06
11-08-2005, 07:12 PM
Oleg has been quoted to say that the joystick input programming has the most difficult part of this sim.

I found with a MSFF twisty that the wobble i get is several times what I see in your track.

My Saitek X45 isnt great either. When I use rudder pedals and a simple cyborg i get satisactory results. I get input spiking in the rudder, so my first 3 values are zero in the settings under yaw. And, (like the dude said) Definately turn off wind and turbulance as it exagerates "Wobble"...

Its a kind of suttle PIO that i hope will get resloved.

OMK_Hand
11-09-2005, 01:02 PM
When I wrote about things being balanced, I meant that power for combat was set, the aircraft is trimmed as necessary for straight and level at that power setting, and that the engine isn't overly abused during the combat.
In a turn fight especially, this tends to determine the speeds at which combat takes place, and if power settings are appropriate to the plane, the plane tends to perform well.

I'm sorry if that wasn't apparent http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I didn't mean 'co-ordinated turns at all times'.

Anyhow, I read here somewhere - I'm sorry I forget who posted it - an idea to try having a level, low setting right across the board for the rudder, only having full 100 deflection as the last setting to allow easy taxiing as much as anything.

Because (despite the engine management thing) I found the rudder a bit too sensitive, I tried:

1RZ=0 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 40 100 0

and this worked for me.
I think the original post suggested '30' or '20'. Whatever you like.

Have you tried something like this?

n.b.
I've just played your latest track, and tried a similar engagement at similar settings i.e. full WEP, cowl flaps open, cockpit open against a novice zero and have experienced great difficulty in, well, everything really. Trying the same engagement at reasonable power and low drag resulted in a quick kill.
I really think you're making things hard for yourself by using high drag/high power settings in the tracks your submitting. The configuration is surely not aerodynamically disposed towards smooth accurate flight?
The flat-out power is not necessary.

Try fighting the F4U at cruise: 2550 rpm 44" boost
using combat: 2700 rpm 52.5" boost (5 mins max) as needed with absolute minimum WEP involvement, and with the cowl and hood closed.
Also try toning your rudder down as above.
That's all I can think of.
Again, good luck with your problem.

What a drag.

Curtiss_P-6E
11-09-2005, 05:56 PM
OMK thanks for the feedback and the rudder settings. I will try the settings as soon as I can. As far as the video with cowl flaps and stuff, ignor all but the rudder input. I wasnt actually trying to shoot him down or even stay on his tail but was just trying to show the wobble with verious inputs of rudder control. I never ever slow down like that to fight a zero. It can be done, I just dont do it.

If you saw the very first track I posted, you will see that I do use the propper power settings (from an old F4U video and the settings my friend used in his F4U). I dont even use tailwheel lock and have no problems with the rudder in that condition.

I am sure the real problem is that I just SUCK when it comes to proper rudder control http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

L33T-Zoolander
11-09-2005, 10:22 PM
The problem isn't with your input settings.
I'm using a set of good old Hoffman Simpeds set up with a logarithmic input and I also get excessive yaw oscillation (wobble).

I suspect part of the problem stems from the fact that whomever programs these flight models has never actually flown, or flown in, a real aeroplane. Perhaps their experience is more towards higher than atmospheric flight, or higher still, in some psychotropic cloud of smoke. However, I digress...

On a positive note, I'm certainly glad elevator responses do not induce such excessive oscillations. Or I'd never get off the ground.
The bottom line is, it's a combat game and not a flight sim.

There are several different ways of getting around the oscillation issues. Personally, I try to predict and compensate for skid shots. However, it's sketchy at best.
Some pilots simply don't use rudder at all and compensate using only aileron and elevator. This can be quite effective. However, in a real aeroplane such uncoordinated efforts during a high speed manoeuver would certainly initiate an instantaneous snap-roll, re****ing in a spin and possibly catastrophic air-frame damage.

Like I said, it's a combat game and not a flight sim. Flight sims are those expensive things that are delivered on three flatbed trailers and only fit into hangars, not dens and family rooms. Flight sims are only operated by military pilots, commercial jet pilots and Arabian oil princes.
OK, a few fight sims end up in the very, very large dens and family rooms, located in a few Middle Eastern palaces. This is only due to the dissapointing fact that, while solid gold aeroplanes look fantastic, they cannot actually be flown.

Good Hunting,
Zoo

LEXX_Luthor
11-09-2005, 11:11 PM
When they shoot down the other plane, its a Sim.

When they get shot down, its a Game.

Curtiss_P-6E
12-01-2006, 08:16 PM
Hi Guys!

Looks like the videos are long gone but.....

Just w