PDA

View Full Version : Joystick: Force Feedback, or not?



Triggaaar
08-29-2005, 05:28 PM
I've just built my first PC for years, and am ordering ILF FB, Aces & PF. And I'll be needing a joystick.

I've searched and read the recommendations for the Saitek X45 & X52, and CH Fighterstick + Pedals & Throttle. Am I right in thinking that none of these offer force feedback?

I appreciate that an accurate controller is vastly superior to a rubbish force feedback controller, but is it not possible to have an accurate force feedback controller?

How does the Saitek Cyborg evo Force compare to the above Joysticks?

Thanks

Triggaaar
08-29-2005, 05:28 PM
I've just built my first PC for years, and am ordering ILF FB, Aces & PF. And I'll be needing a joystick.

I've searched and read the recommendations for the Saitek X45 & X52, and CH Fighterstick + Pedals & Throttle. Am I right in thinking that none of these offer force feedback?

I appreciate that an accurate controller is vastly superior to a rubbish force feedback controller, but is it not possible to have an accurate force feedback controller?

How does the Saitek Cyborg evo Force compare to the above Joysticks?

Thanks

ashley2005
08-29-2005, 06:20 PM
ye saitek x 52 doesnt offer ffb i used to use a ffb stick and thought i coudent fly without it ever untill i got my saitek X 52 now i dont really care about it cause the X 52 is so sweet ...the X 52 is more fun than your wife :P

Bearcat99
08-29-2005, 06:56 PM
Consider here (http://store.yahoo.com/saitekusa/recprod.html) for a reconditioned X-45/X-52.... and if you want FFB get one of the Saitek FFB sticks (reconditioned). I use a MSFFB2(Which IMO is the best FFB stick ever made, but unfortunately they dont make them any more)/X-45/CH pedal combo setup that to me is ideal. I get the best of it all in a FFB stick, a HOTAS... and the extra immersion of rudder pedals and TIR. Though not a neccessity FFB is indeed a great enhancer of the sim experience. FB supports multiple joysticks.... I use my X-45 stick as a button bay... strictly for buttons and switches for stuff..... I fly and shoot with the MSFFB2 stick... and i use the X-45 throttle portion as my throttle. The X-45 throttle plugs i nto the X-45 stick and the stick is USB so both units show up as one controller.

Triggaaar
08-29-2005, 06:58 PM
Saitek is looking like the only option.

It seems we (UK) can't get the CH products here for less than double US prices. I could get them shipped over from the usual suspects, and pay $90 shipping for stick, pedals & wheel, but the website gives no idea about import duties and taxes which could be added on top.

Anyone fancy sending them all to me for a nice earner http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Triggaaar
08-29-2005, 07:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Consider here (http://store.yahoo.com/saitekusa/recprod.html) for a reconditioned X-45/X-52 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Sorry, forgot to mention I was in the UK. I didn't think it would matter, as I've never had a problem buying things before, but that sight for reconditioned products won't sell outside America.

lbhskier37
08-29-2005, 07:18 PM
IMHO FFB is kinda fakey. Rudder pedals, track IR, separate throttle, those all increase imersion and are much more important than FFB I think. Even having good speakers or headphones adds a lot more than FFB. When you are flying in real life you don't feel the plane through the stick nearly as much as you feel it through your butt, so if they ever made a FFB chair I might be all over it. If it were me I would spend the money on a good stick that will last forever like a CH products and not waste money on Saitek disposable sticks.

Triggaaar
08-29-2005, 07:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lbhskier37:
IMHO FFB is kinda fakey. Rudder pedals, track IR, separate throttle, those all increase imersion and are much more important than FFB I think. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Good point
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If it were me I would spend the money on a good stick that will last forever like a CH products and not waste money on Saitek disposable sticks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Arrggghhh! Easier said than done. I just can't get them here.

ashley2005
08-29-2005, 07:28 PM
http://www.play.com/play247.asp?pa=search&searchtype=al...ht+stick&page=search (http://www.play.com/play247.asp?pa=search&amp;searchtype=allproducts&amp;searc hstring=flight+stick&amp;page=search) you can

ashley2005
08-29-2005, 07:32 PM
also this one
http://www.play.com/play247.asp?pa=srmr&page=title&r=PC&title=185052 (http://www.play.com/play247.asp?pa=srmr&amp;page=title&amp;r=PC&amp;title=185052)

Dew-Claw
08-29-2005, 10:43 PM
Do what I did,
Bought a cheap usb force feedback gamepad at Wally World (Wal-Mart) and strap it to your chair.

I strapped mine to the front of the armrest and can program the buttons.
best part is I feel the Force feedback thru the seat instead of the stick.

IL2-chuter
08-30-2005, 01:47 AM
I can't stand NOT flyin with FFB (MSFFB2). I modified the FFB folder so only flight forces come through and I rely heavily on the stick buffet feedback. It makes high G flyin so much more . . . well, "real" (been flyin for 30yrs). The game's flight model (One big one tweaked all over to make different planes) still does some odd things, but I can't see how one could improve the game and still have it run on any one of our rigs.

Keep'em flyin. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

wintergoose
08-30-2005, 03:38 AM
When I first started with IL2 I was using force feedback and I liked it werry much.
I could not tink using anything else.
But so for 2 mounth ago i bought X45 and started playing with it.
And strange, not even before I read this tred I was thinking about that I was missing the the force feedback.
I had not noticed that is was misssing ??

Triggaaar
08-30-2005, 04:27 AM
Thanks for the link Ashley. 1st link was just the flight stick, which I haven't seen recommended here so much. When I searched on Fighterstick, nothing - but there it is in your second link! For some reason, they've slit the name into fighter stick.

So I can buy the 3 CH Products for 320 ($571). A bit steep. Or I could buy them from the US for $363, delivered, plus tax - which could be anything.

TgD Thunderbolt56
08-30-2005, 06:41 AM
I use the CH Flightstick Pro+ rudder pedals+ Throttle+ TIR all after a year or so using FFB. I recommend them so much over anything else, that if you send me the money (or equivalent) I'll send them UPS or FEDEX as a gift http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


TB

Padser
08-30-2005, 10:20 AM
Hi
I also strongly recommend the CH family of products. They're dear, but you'll never spend any more money on sticks once you've got them.

In the UK, keep an eye out on ebay for second hand products - you can pick up real bargains like this.

Or try: http://www.rcsimulations.com for excellent service

Or http://www.simw.com - based in Europe, reasonable prices (You might even get a deal if you buy a number of items at once)

I'd recommend the Fighterstick, Pro Throttle and Pro Pedals as the ideal set up (I wouldn't fly with anything else... ;-)

Cheers,

Pads

PS another option is the Thrustmaster Cougar HOTAS - see here for details: http://us.thrustmaster.com/products/dsp_fam.php?fam=39

I have a pristine one that I am looking to sell (too heavy for me) - let me know if you're interested, I'm in the UK, too.

Priest185
08-30-2005, 12:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">When you are flying in real life you don't feel the plane through the stick nearly as much as you feel it through your butt, so if they ever made a FFB chair I might be all over it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I took one of these: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8215119724&category=62053 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&amp;item=8215119724&amp;category=62 053) and installed it as the lumbar support in the back of my chair. I call it the "Poor man's FF". With adjustment of the power and filter, you will recieve, throughout the whole chair, a rough rumble as you idle on the tarmac, a fine vibration as you cruise at power, and disturbing pops and jolts when you get hit with those d@mn Mk108 rounds, (when you survive that is!).
I just unzipped and removed the back portion of my chair, used metal plumbers tape to secure the backpack to the frame, and ran the wiring out a 1/4" opening left in the zipper. Then I mounted the control housing to the underside of the chair, (or you can just let it lay on the floor), and ran power from the included wall wart. The input is from the audio from you comp. and uses a standard 1/8" jack.

Easy as cake!

Triggaaar
08-30-2005, 01:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
I recommend them so much over anything else, that if you send me the money (or equivalent) I'll send them UPS or FEDEX as a gift http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now that is an offer, thanks. I could order them online, and have them delivered to your address, then I'd just need to cover postage (they'd be packaged). I've just sent an email for a price to the European site that pads recommended, so I'll see what that comes out like. I will be in touch.

I've kept an eye on ebay, and can pick up the X45 and X52 for reasonable moeny.

I actuall have a CH Flightstick pro (game port), but if I'm getting everything else sent, it might be worth getting the fighterstick at the same time.

FA_Kook
08-30-2005, 02:08 PM
Maybe one of these....
http://www.saitekusa.com/usa/prod/cyborg_evo_force.htm

Bearcat99
08-30-2005, 07:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lbhskier37:
IMHO FFB is kinda fakey. Rudder pedals, track IR, separate throttle, those all increase imersion and are much more important than FFB I think. Even having good speakers or headphones adds a lot more than FFB. When you are flying in real life you don't feel the plane through the stick nearly as much as you feel it through your butt, so if they ever made a FFB chair I might be all over it. If it were me I would spend the money on a good stick that will last forever like a CH products and not waste money on Saitek disposable sticks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree with you about the FFB.... IMO FFB adds greatly to the immersion. The ultimate would be of course a hydraulicly controlled platform like the stuff that can be found here (http://www.flightsimulation.com/products.htm).. but since I dont have pockets anywhere near as deep as what I would need for that..... I can settle for my MSFFB. FFB though not essential to enjoying any sim..... does add to the experience.

Tully__
08-31-2005, 11:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dew-Claw:
Do what I did,
Bought a cheap usb force feedback gamepad at Wally World (Wal-Mart) and strap it to your chair.

I strapped mine to the front of the armrest and can program the buttons.
best part is I feel the Force feedback thru the seat instead of the stick. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That isn't force feedback, it's rumble effects.

Force feedback models the resistance you'd feel in real controls, with high force at high speed, low force at low speed and shaking controls when the control surface is in a stalled condition.

IL2-chuter
08-31-2005, 11:58 AM
Tully and Bearcat99 . . .

DITTO - http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I love my MSFFB2.

lbhskier37
08-31-2005, 12:46 PM
A FFB stick could be a really big realism boost if it worked right, however the game can't really allow that. In reality the reason things like roll rates drop off at higher speeds is because you can't pull full deflection on the sticks at those speeds. A FFB stick will get a bit stiffer at high speeds, but you will still always be able to pull full deflection on the stick. In the game however you won't be pulling full deflection, so although it is getting stiffer, its not really anything like how it would act in real life. I'm not knocking people that use and like FFB, but I am just saying it's not really that realistic.

FoolTrottel
08-31-2005, 06:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm not knocking people that use and like FFB, but I am just saying it's not really that realistic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it really isn't that realistic.
Neither are the JoySticks we use, TIR or whatever.

But, it does add to the immersion!
(And here I mainly like to refere to "stiffer at high speeds" ... you can instantly feel the aircraft is more difficult to control http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

Have Fun!

Triggaaar
09-06-2005, 06:43 AM
After a few emails to ProVantage, and calls to DHL and UK Customs and Excise, it appears that I wouldn't have to pay Import Duty on joysticks (but would still have to pay UK VAT @ 17.5%), which is nice.

So for the 3 CH Products, it would cost $427.42 deliverd (232). That's $144(88) cheaper than ordering from the UK. Thanks again for your offer Thunderbolt, but if I go for CH Products, it looks like I'll be ok ordering direct.

But choosing isn't exactly easy - seems each option has a lot of support here (although Bearcat seems to be cheating, by owning everything). Let me get this right Bearcat - you have CH pedals (check), an MSFF joystick (check), and then an X45 (throttle and joystick)? Does that mean you fly with 2 joysticks, as well as a throttle and pedals?

Oh - and what is TIR?
EDIT - ok, found out what TIR is. Which TIR devices are there to consider?
When looking around the windows, do those with TIR also use a Hat switch in combination, or is the TIR good enough on it's own? And when you'r trying to look straight ahead (at a target), but you're leaning to one side because that's your plane is turning, does the device make you accidentally look out of the side window? It just sounds like such a difficult device to get right.

Triggaaar
09-06-2005, 06:59 AM
What is special about the CH pedals? At the moment, I'm using the pedals from my Logitech Steering Wheel & Pedals set.
With them, is it easier to make small adjustments when lining up an opponent?

From the Gamespot review on the Cyborg Evo Force:
"The force feedback worked very well... providing the visceral sensations of gunfire, wing vibrations before stall..."
Is there much truth in that? ie, is it easier to detect a stall with such a joystick, than perhaps the CH Fighter stick? Because I am very, very good at stalling.

DmdSeeker
09-06-2005, 10:35 AM
Track IR is a definate mmust.

You don't _need_ it; any more than you _need_ a joystick; but once you've gotten into it; you'd no more "look" with a hat switch than you'd "fly" with a mouse.

At the moment; IL-2 (in all it's permutations) on supports Track IR by 75%; inasmuch as your actual head position in the cockpit is fixed. What this means is that you can't move your head to one side and therby move your point of view in game to the side to see around cockpit framing. However; more and more sims (including Maddox's future and coming Sims such as battle of Britain)do go that extra step and it's great! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The 75% that is supported (I hope you get what I mean by that) works very smoothly. To look at something; well; you just look :-)

In your scenario: "And when you'r trying to look straight ahead (at a target), but you're leaning to one side because that's your plane is turning, does the device make you accidentally look out of the side window?".. well; imagine how you think it SHOULD work.... 'cos that's what it does. In this scenario you'd be focused on the target; so that would be mid screen; and you'd fly the gunsight on to it.

You can get a somewhat similar effect with Padlock; but it's nowhere near as good; because you're controlling the focus of your attention merely by looking; instead of mashing a control button trying to padlock on the right bogey :-)

Triggaaar
09-06-2005, 11:06 AM
Thanks.

I haven't tried padlock, maybe I should at least see what it looks like.

I have, however, done some searches on TIR. I've downloaded a video demonstration, which looks good, although the user (pilot) was turning his head to one side, while obviously keeping his eyes on the monitor, which is a bit unnatural (although not as unnatural as using a mouse).

I also see that you can set the software to keep you looking straight ahead unless you move more than a set amount, which deals with the targetting issue I considered.

I've also searched on 6DOF, and it is no surprise that it's not supported by FB & PF. In real lise, moving your head closer to a side window, would give you a much wider angle of view, which you couldn't just add to a game. When is BoB likely to be out?

So is IR3 pro the only one to really consider?

I could be better with a Saitek system, and IR3, than full CH kit, and it would cost less. Or I could just blow all my money on FB & PF, which seems to be a common failing here http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

major_setback
09-06-2005, 12:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IL2-chuter:
Tully and Bearcat99 . . .

DITTO - http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I love my MSFFB2. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Same again an' I'll raise you fifty!

MSFFB2: I turn the Force Feeedbak off at night because it wakes the neighbours. So I get to compare 'with' and 'without' force feedback daily...you will miss it when it's turned off!

You can feel the planes responses, bullets hitting you, damage to control surfaces, 'flutter' as you approach a stall, and your heart misses a beat when a wing drops on a landing approach.
You also feel the wheels touch the tarmac on landing.


An easy way to improve your simming experience...get Force Feedback.

major_setback
09-06-2005, 12:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Triggaaar:
Thanks.

I haven't tried padlock, maybe I should at least see what it looks like....

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

'Padlock' is a function within the game, it is explained in this thread. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m...811021713#2811021713 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/1671080713/r/2811021713#2811021713)

Bearcat99
09-06-2005, 02:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lbhskier37:
A FFB stick could be a really big realism boost if it worked right, however the game can't really allow that. In reality the reason things like roll rates drop off at higher speeds is because you can't pull full deflection on the sticks at those speeds. A FFB stick will get a bit stiffer at high speeds, but you will still always be able to pull full deflection on the stick. In the game however you won't be pulling full deflection, so although it is getting stiffer, its not really anything like how it would act in real life. I'm not knocking people that use and like FFB, but I am just saying it's not really that realistic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

IMO this argument is taking the discussion into the surreal...... there isnt a joystick out... NONE that will mimick the stick presures etc of a real aircraft under combat conditions..... so that argument is inert... This is a sim..(I know you know that so dont take it personally) and no matter what kind of technology we get... even if we had holodecks... as long as the safeties were on it aint the real deal... and it wont be... but for my bucks... FFB is indeed one of the places where "it"s" at. FFB, TIR,VAC or something that does the job as well (and nothing foots the bill for the price of VAC), rudder pedals and a HOTAS setup are for me "the only way to fly..... " I go in and out of TIR....... and VAC for that matter.... but the others..... wont do without... and I have an unopened MSFFB2 in my closet and my present one shows no signs of wear or tear so I will be FFBing with this stick or one like it for a long time... untill they stop making drivers in the sims I fly for it... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

What...... refly is real..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Triggaaar
09-06-2005, 05:03 PM
I think I would personally appreciate FB effects in the game. It will obviously not be real, but can add something.

Several people here have switched from FB to Hotas and preferred the latter, but I think I would like both. I don't think I'd like to use a twisting joystick for the rudder, and I'd like a seperate throttle (unlike the wheel on my CH Flightstick Pro).

But the MSFFB2, which is so popular here, isn't available (unless Bearcat sells me his).

So should I consider: CH Throttle USB, CH Pedals USB, and Saitek Evo Cyborg Force, or is there an alternative FFB joystick?

Otherwise its just between CH & X45/X52, which is really a cost decision. And all that with IR3 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Ouch this is expensive.

EiZ0N
09-06-2005, 05:43 PM
I have a Saitek FFB stick.

I'm quite annoyed that someone in this thread called it a "disposable" stick.

It's wonderful to fly with, feeling all the force feedback effects. And disposable? I've had the stick for more than 2 years.

I personally prefer it to the MS FFB, simply because I'm left handed. I'm not sure if it's any worse performing (I don't personally think there's alot of difference, but I've only used a MS FFB stick a little bit). Anyone had both care to comment? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

lbhskier37 - Don't knock it 'til you've owned it.

Mackane1
09-06-2005, 06:31 PM
Here ya go... (http://cgi.ebay.com/Microsoft-SideWinder-Force-Feedback2-PC-Gaming-Joystick_W0QQitemZ5804607355QQcategoryZ74944QQrdZ1 QQcmdZViewItem)

I found a backup MSFF2 for myself this way.

Triggaaar
09-06-2005, 07:51 PM
Thanks. IL2 is clearly depriving me of too much sleep. I had looked on ebay, but stupidly searched on MSFFB instead of seperate words, so I assumed people weren't really selling them. There's 3 on the UK site now. I think I'll buy one, and try it before ordering any CH products from the states. It's irritating that the high quality CH fighterstick doesn't have FFB, but hey.

Then it'll be CH Throttle, or Throttle for X45 (which will cost half as much, with an extra joystick). What are the advantages of the CH Throttle over the Saitek?

And then... pedals. What can the sliders on the CH Pedals be used for (in FB/PF)? Do they give much of an advantage over driving pedals?

Padser
09-07-2005, 02:55 AM
~S~

The X-45 throttle has twin rotary controllers with (if I remember rightly) a central detent (a kind of notch you can feel at the centre point). This makes them ideal for assigning to trim, although PF models trim very nicely by incremental button click, so this may not be such a big deal. It also has a pivot action on the throttle itself - it feels heavy and substantial.

I never liked the stick part of the X-45 and so it sat under the desk in disgrace... Nor did I like the 'rudder bar' on the throttle, but as you are getting pedals this won't affect you. I used to like it a lot!

The CH Throttle has no rotaries http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif, but it does have many more buttons than its Saitek equivalent - with this and my Fighterstick I am able to fly genuinely HOTAS (hands on throttle and stick - and off keyboard!). The CH throttle has a sliding action, rather than the pivoted action of the Saitek, but feels good and big in the hand, if perhaps a little light.

To be honest, when I first got my CH throttle I was a little disappointed with how it felt and the lack of rotaries, but now couldn't imagine going back. The CH throttle has more controls, the Saitek is blue... I suppose it is a matter of habit, preference and finance...

I don't know where you're based in the UK, but I dropped down to Bristol to see Bob at RC Simulations and got to put my sweaty paws on a number of sticks - it might be worth dropping them a line and arranging to drop by. The Fleet Air Arm museum at Yeovilton is not so far away - would make a nice day trip! If you can wait that long, Bob is running a flight sim exhibition on October 15th (details here: http://www.fs-show.com/)- I'm sure there would be stuff you could try out and people to talk to about this there.

Cheers,

Pads

Tully__
09-07-2005, 04:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Triggaaar:
What is special about the CH pedals? At the moment, I'm using the pedals from my Logitech Steering Wheel & Pedals set.
With them, is it easier to make small adjustments when lining up an opponent? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Flying sim pedals (CH Pro Pedals, Simped pedals etc..) are articulated to move the same way as real aircraft pedals. Push one down and it forces the other one up. The car race pedals you're currently using can both be down together which results in the rudder being centered. Not realistic at all.

Besides this, CH made controllers generally give really smooth precise control.

triggerhappyfin
09-07-2005, 06:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lbhskier37:
IMHO FFB is kinda fakey. Rudder pedals, track IR, separate throttle, those all increase imersion and are much more important than FFB I think. Even having good speakers or headphones adds a lot more than FFB. <span class="ev_code_RED">When you are flying in real life you don't feel the plane through the stick nearly as much as you feel it through your butt,</span> so if they ever made a FFB chair I might be all over it. If it were me I would spend the money on a good stick that will last forever like a CH products and not waste money on Saitek disposable sticks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_RED">Perhaps its wrong to have a ffb stick then..or one could stuff in the place where the sun never shines..</span> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

EiZ0N
09-07-2005, 04:10 PM
He clearly doesn't know the difference between force FEEDBACK and rumble effects.

Triggaaar
09-07-2005, 04:35 PM
Some chap has just sold 2 identical MSFFB2s on ebay - the first went for 32 inc p&p, then the second went for 64?

sithgod
09-07-2005, 09:48 PM
I had FFB before and while it was cool I found I didn't miss it when I got my X52

Triggaaar
09-08-2005, 05:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sithgod:
I had FFB before and while it was cool I found I didn't miss it when I got my X52 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>A lot of people posting here have felt the same. When you had FFB, were you full HOTAS?

JunkoIfurita
09-08-2005, 06:48 PM
BearCat's setup is probably the best available for someone who wants Force Feedback (well, given a choice I'd replace his X-45 with and X-52 - you're not using the stick except as a button bay anyway, and the two rotaries are VERY handy).

Without picking up a MSFFB2 stick, you can reach a pretty similar setup. I think the BEST Force Feedback stick isn't the Evo Force. It's not bad, but it's got that 'Saitek' feel, which isn't the most natural feeling.

I think you should consider a Thrustmaster Afterburner Force Feedback, with an X-52 as button bay/throttle, for the ultimate starters FFB setup.

The throttle on Afterburner sticks is a bit cheap, and will go eventually (as is the rudder axis). BUT the stick is absolute gold - fits in the hand like a glove, the range of movement is absolutely spot on, and it's extremely precise. The Force Feedback is strong too, I've heard (I never owned the FFB version of this stick).

So you take the Afterburner FFB stick, leave the throttle aside (extra buttons maybe).

You use the X-52's stick as a button bay, and use the throttle of the X-52 as your throttle/slider HOTAS setup.

Pretty similar to BearCat's setup - only the stick is slightly less awesome, and the throttle is slightly more so.

----

EiZ0N
09-09-2005, 05:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I think the BEST Force Feedback stick isn't the Evo Force. It's not bad, but it's got that 'Saitek' feel, which isn't the most natural feeling. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You mean, it's not primarily for right handed people, right?

Being a lefy, I don't know the meaning of 'natural feeling', as it's enough for the stick to actually fit around my hand http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Triggaaar
09-09-2005, 06:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JunkoIfurita:
BearCat's setup is probably the best available for someone who wants Force Feedback... - you're not using the stick except as a button bay anyway </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is the route I'm favouring at the moment, except that I don't want to have an extra stick as a button bay. I'm thinking MSFFB2 & CH Throttle & Pedals, and I want to be HOTAS. The idea of an extra stick does not appeal. BUT - does the MSFFB2 not have enough functionality (as the CH Flightstick for example) to allow HOTAS?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Pretty similar to BearCat's setup - only the stick is slightly less awesome </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Why have a less awesome stick? The MSFFB2 is still fairly available. Seen 4 go in the last few days.

Bearcat99
09-10-2005, 10:17 AM
http://x4.putfile.com/9/24923514744.gif

I like the X-45 because of the rudder rocker which I use for flaps.... I have a spare so Ill be using that setup for a while... The button bay thing works great and the X-45 just gives you more controls.... especially if used with a MSFFB or other FFB stick. The best of both worlds.

hwy133
09-11-2005, 08:13 AM
Hey! i have bought a jpystick with Force feedback called WingMan Force 3D Logitech
In stores cost about 80$ i bought it for 19.45
On ebay. Seller is JustDeals you can win an auction for 8 dollars and shippment is 11.95.
So the total is about 20$ and they give you a free game FreeSpace 2 Colosuss.
But the thing is that it doesn't work in IL-2 Forgottent Battles. I don't know why. Maybe I should do something to turn on the feed back please tell me how.
But the joystick is really cool!
You can write me to hwy133@hotmail.com

FoolTrottel
09-11-2005, 09:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hwy133:
(...)But the thing is that it doesn't work in IL-2 Forgottent Battles. I don't know why. Maybe I should do something to turn on the feed back please tell me how. (...)
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In game, go to Hardware Setup, Input, on the bottom left there should be a switch called 'Force Feedback'. Switch it on!

Have Fun!

jolulure
09-25-2005, 11:47 AM
Hi. I just bought SONYTEC CHALLENGER 200 with vibration. I want to enable vibration in the game, so I click on Force Feedback button in the INPUT menu. Then, I click back and the games crashes!!. I've tried reinsalling the game, and re re reinstalling the Joystick driver, but I can't solve the problem. Please Help http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

VFS-214_Hawk
09-25-2005, 05:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lbhskier37:
A FFB stick could be a really big realism boost if it worked right, however the game can't really allow that. In reality the reason things like roll rates drop off at higher speeds is because you can't pull full deflection on the sticks at those speeds. A FFB stick will get a bit stiffer at high speeds, but you will still always be able to pull full deflection on the stick. In the game however you won't be pulling full deflection, so although it is getting stiffer, its not really anything like how it would act in real life. I'm not knocking people that use and like FFB, but I am just saying it's not really that realistic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


It can help to eliminate over controlling.

VFS-214_Hawk
09-25-2005, 07:13 PM
Oh yeah....more money doesnt always mean better product.

I am with Bear on this one. I use to use a MSPPFF gameport when I flew WarBirds 2.xx. I hated when it broke and could not afford another one. I eventually purchased all CH products thinking it was state-of-the-art. I still use the peds and throttle but sold the stick. It was too big and bulky and cause me wrist to hurt (no sly jokes). I replaced it with the basic MS sidewinder. I think they are the best for durability and comfort. Now as we speak I just purchased a MSFF2 and cant wait for it to arrive so I can get that extra sim feeling back.


I would prefer the real cockpit of an F4U with a moniter stuck in the windshield but I will settle for:

CH Throttle
CH peds
MS joystick...force feedback or basic.

Cockpit management is a must.
A good landing starts with a good approach!

http://www.fantasyofflight.com/Images/fightertown/Fightertown_01.jpg

madsarmy
09-26-2005, 02:04 AM
IMOA I would stay well clear of the Thrustmaster Afterburner Force Feedback stick. I bought one & within 6 months it was useless. all the controls spiked the rudder switch was next to pathetic & the trigger & buttons only worked when they felt like it.
For the price (90) the components were very sub-standard.

JunkoIfurita
09-26-2005, 04:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Being a lefy, I don't know the meaning of 'natural feeling', as it's enough for the stick to actually fit around my hand Big Grin </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm a lefty too, mate http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I too smudge my name all over the page when I'm trying to write notes with a cheap biro!

I still fly with my right hand because most sticks fit best that way (I play guitar right handed too...same reason). But that doesn't factor into my opinion of the Evo - it just didn't feel that good.

----

Bearcat99
09-26-2005, 04:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JunkoIfurita:
BearCat's setup is probably the best available for someone who wants Force Feedback (well, given a choice I'd replace his X-45 with and X-52 - you're not using the stick except as a button bay anyway, and the two rotaries are VERY handy).
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The reason I prefer the X-45 to the X-52 for my setup is that the X-45 has a rocker switch on the throttle for rudder. Since I dont use the Saitek stick to fl having a twist handle rudder is moot, whereas with the rudder rocker... on my throttle, where I keep my left hand for the most part I can use it as a switch. I have my flaps on there and for me it works great..

JunkoIfurita
09-26-2005, 04:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This is the route I'm favouring at the moment, except that I don't want to have an extra stick as a button bay. I'm thinking MSFFB2 & CH Throttle & Pedals, and I want to be HOTAS. The idea of an extra stick does not appeal. BUT - does the MSFFB2 not have enough functionality (as the CH Flightstick for example) to allow HOTAS?

quote:
Pretty similar to BearCat's setup - only the stick is slightly less awesome

Why have a less awesome stick? The MSFFB2 is still fairly available. Seen 4 go in the last few days. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I'm with you on that one, mate. Since the last time I posted I've since picked up a brand new MSFFB2 over the Aussie E-Bay for $135 Aussie dollars. Considering they're going for as high as $185 American in the states, I reckon I got a good deal http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif The guy who'se selling them must have stashed a bunch of them away before they went off the market - because he keeps just putting them up for sale, and he has a bunch of MSFFB Wheels, too.

As to your other question - The MSFFB2 stick doesn't have a MASSIVE number of buttons (unlike the X-52, which has them coming out its ****), but it does have enough to get by. 6 buttons plus the hat-switch, I believe. Plus if you get ahold of the profiling software you can near double that by using one of the buttons as a 'shift'.

Some of us just love 'too many buttons'. I don't touch the keyboard while simming, for example.

Also, I had an X-52 first - I've been using it for a while. I've only picked up the FFB stick recently, and don't want to give up my HOTAS. I'll eventually add a set of pedals, too - but CH gear is harder to get in Australia than it is in the UK, even, and my budget is fairly limited.

As to Track IR - get the TrackIR 3 Pro - it's the only one that supports 6DOF (through the vector expansion, which you can get either now or later). 6DOF can't be used in Sturmovik, but it WILL be available in Oleg's Battle Over Britain. It's already available in Battle of Britain: Wings of Victory. Considering that it's a game based on an old engine, that's one of its strong points. The 3 Pro is the only 'future proofed' product, you could say: because methinks once 6DOF becomes commonplace, I think people aren't going to want to go back to that 'unrealistic two-axis head tracking'.

----

nickdanger3
09-26-2005, 05:01 PM
I use the exact same setup as BearCat - I laughed when I saw his picture of his rig since it's identical to mine down to the Logitech speakers.

I use the rocker on the X-45 for flaps though.

Point is with this setup, you've got no end of possiblities for programming so that you'll never need your keyboard again.

OK. Except to type stuff like "S!"
Though it's usually "GK!" in my case http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Triggaaar
09-26-2005, 05:22 PM
Thanks for everyone's advice - I now have an MSFFB2 (they're going for 45 inc p&p in the UK, got mine for 41). It seems to be great.

Now it's not like I could fly before, but I could beat an inferior AI fighter 1 on 1. Not any more http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It's probably more to do with me finally getting AEP, and merging FB with PF, and getting the latest patches. All the enemy has to do is fly in circles for a while, and I stall.

The force feedback gives a steady gentle pull agasinst you, but if you relax, the feedback stops, and the stick drops to the side. Do you just have to keep some pressure on it to keep it activated, or should I change some settings? I assume I'd like to have just flight settings active, and not rumble effects (if I knew how).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JunkoIfurita:
The MSFFB2 stick doesn't have a MASSIVE number of buttons, but it does have enough to get by. 6 buttons plus the hat-switch, I believe. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>8 plus hat.

MAILMAN------
09-26-2005, 05:37 PM
I have an older setup. I use a CH Force FX, CH Pro Throttle and CH Pro Pedals.
These connect to the gameport, comm port 1 (FF) and PS2 Keyboard (pass through for keyboard) to emulate keys. I dual boot my computer. For flight sims I use WME in order to have the force feedback effects. I could use WXP with the rig, but thanks to microsoft it is impossible to get the FFB. CH hangar has come up with a work around to be able to use this flight setup and still be able to use the speed keys program to assign the buttons in WXP.

"[Quote] And then... pedals. What can the sliders on the CH Pedals be used for (in FB/PF)? Do they give much of an advantage over driving pedals? [QUOTE]"

The regular CH Pedals move up and down independent of each other. They can be used for rudders or car controls with the flick of a slide switch. The CH Pro Pedals slide forward and back like rudder pedals or bar (push in on one the other slides back) and also move up and down simulating toe brakes. I can't hook mine up to work like toe brakes, but the USB version does if the game supports it. If you do have gameport CH Pro Pedals they can be connected the the Saitek X45 and used and there is even a diagram to rewire these pedals so the toe brakes will also work when connected to this joystick. The diagram can be found at CH Hangar.

I use the force feedback to give me feel for the onset of compression and stalls. It is a nice feature feeling the wheels leave the ground and touching the ground. I could care less about the guns or weapons effects. I just wish I knew more how to adjust the centering spring effects to eliminate random forces that show up for no apparent reason. I have used this rig since the AW2 & 3 days and don't want to imagine not using it. CH does have replacement parts for this rig still available even though it is discontinued.

Cold_Gambler
09-27-2005, 07:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Triggaaar:
Thanks for everyone's advice - I now have an MSFFB2 (they're going for 45 inc p&p in the UK, got mine for 41). It seems to be great.

The force feedback gives a steady gentle pull agasinst you, but if you relax, the feedback stops, and the stick drops to the side. Do you just have to keep some pressure on it to keep it activated, or should I change some settings? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like you got a good deal!
About the stick dropping, I believe there's a light sensor at the front of the stick grip (either under the trigger or on the front of the handle) which you can locate by testing. I've covered the front of my MSFF2 with duct tape to get rid of that sudden floppiness which I found annoying...

And you'll probably want to get TIR... and pedals... and a throttle... and a new graphics card and... Welcome to the crazy world of flight simming http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Actually, imho, pedals are the last additional peripheral I'd get.
My order (if on a budget) would be: 1) Joystick (check), 2) TIR, 3) throttle and 4) pedals.

Triggaaar
09-27-2005, 07:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cold_Gambler:
Sounds like you got a good deal! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>There's actually a huge number of them available on uk's ebay. I've seen about 20 go, and there's several on now.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">About the stick dropping, I believe there's a light sensor at the front of the stick grip (either under the trigger or on the front of the handle) which you can locate by testing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>So there is - there one at the top and bottom on mine. Thanks.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And you'll probably want to get TIR... and pedals... and a throttle... and a new graphics card and... Welcome to the crazy world of flight simming http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yep, all planned. I'd been considering CH joystick, throttle and pedals - and would've ordered all from the US in 1 go, but I decided to at least try the MSFF based on info in this thread. So now I'll order the throttle and pedals from the US, and track down a TIR.

My graphics card is doing ok (6600GT).

If only I wasn't such a bad pilot.